• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Who Runs China?

Status
Not open for further replies.

GDGF

Soothsayer
-Well then, who's in charge of China?

-Yes!

-I mean the fellow's name!

-Hu!

-The guy in charge!

-Hu!

-In charge of China!

-Hu!

-The guy in power!

-Hu is in charge of China!

-Now whaddya askin' me for?
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
Is "securing Taiwan from becoming independant" the only frigging problem that China faces ? All Hu said at the commencement is about preventing Taiwan from splitting and all that mumble jumble. What happened to health care, economy, piracy and all the other stuff that is REALLY the more important subject with China ? So, seriously, before minding other people's business, mind your own business first, China !
 
I think in the near future, china will attempt to invade Taiwan and it will be bloody, Getting Taiwan back into China is all their heads seem to care about
 

KingV

Member
NetMapel said:
Is "securing Taiwan from becoming independant" the only frigging problem that China faces ? All Hu said at the commencement is about preventing Taiwan from splitting and all that mumble jumble. What happened to health care, economy, piracy and all the other stuff that is REALLY the more important subject with China ? So, seriously, before minding other people's business, mind your own business first, China !

Well, when you have no accountability to your constituency, due to electoral processes, you're free to focus on whatever the hell you want to.
 

BarneyBP

Member
Touché King V.

Its all about pride. They're convinced we look at Taiwan operating independently and think China is weak as a result.

But other issues? Hey, it's not like the people can vote here. Was your home displaced due to the building of the Grand People's Stadium of Olympic Glories? Tough luck. They'll be done two years ahead of schedule! :D
 

ourumov

Member
norinrad21 said:
I think in the near future, china will attempt to invade Taiwan and it will be bloody, Getting Taiwan back into China is all their heads seem to care about
It wouldn't be so strange...
I have a chinese friend who is totally blind when it comes to her country. She doesn't realise the dictatorship they have nor the laws from the jurassic they seem to apply.
The other day one man was being punished to perpetual prison for just having a porn webpage that received 250000 hits.
I won't put my feet on that country...not until things change.
 

Boogie9IGN

Member
FREE TIBET DAMNIT, LET THE DALAI LAMA COME HOME

Btw, thx for this, it's perfect for my current event paper thing for tomorrow
 
Jim Bowie said:
If Taiwan is independant, China loses their valuable tiny plastic toys and stereo equipment market.

No, it would be worse. The world could lose awesome pop stars like Jay Chou and A-mei.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
Yeah, I have no idea why China is so obsess with Taiwan. They claimed that Taiwan had always been part of China ever since ancient time, but seriously, the ancient Chinese didn't care about Taiwan at all. Zhang Chung Gong came to Taiwan at the dawn of the Qing Dynasty only because he and several of his soldiers are Ming Dynasty loyalists. He successfully drove away the Dutch, who were occupying Taiwan during that time, but was later conqured by Qing. Mind you, Qing Dynasty is the last dynasty in Chinese history, so the whole "Taiwan is part of China" thing didn't happen too long ago. I also don't recall the Qing government sending any official to Taiwan to develope it. Afterward, the Japanese came, and one of the first piece of land China agreed to give to Japan is Taiwan... that really shows a lot of care about Taiwan, yeah...
 
Can anyone (be bothered to) describe the relationship in China between the past and the present? Or good ways to read up on Chinese history ... The place fascinates me but I know so little about it.
 
"Why are they so obssessed with Taiwan?"

They think the Taiwanese people are making too much money. Anyone who makes more than 46 cents per hour must be taken out.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
I think in the near future, china will attempt to invade Taiwan and it will be bloody, Getting Taiwan back into China is all their heads seem to care about.
No, they care about quite a few other things if you ever read any news. If China invades Taiwan, then it's because Taiwan brought it onto themselves by voting in a kooky president who likes to play with fire. Even the US policy toward the Strait Crisis is an implied peaceful reunification.
Why are they so obssessed with Taiwan? Let it go.
If China controls Taiwan, then it also controls the entire South China Sea, making it their own little Caribbean. Why don't you ask Russia why it doesn't let go of Chechnya?
ourumov said:
I won't put my feet on that country...not until things change.
lol, oh no!
 
Stele said:
If China invades Taiwan, then it's because Taiwan brought it onto themselves by voting in a kooky president who likes to play with fire. Even the US policy toward the Strait Crisis is an implied peaceful reunification.

Taiwanese people consider themselves less and less Chinese nowadays anyways. Not only that, the way that Beijing rules HK isn't exactly encouraging either.

In Taiwan today, fewer and fewer people see themselves as Chinese. According to an annual poll taken by Taipei's Chengchi University, the proportion of Taiwan's residents who consider themselves exclusively Chinese has plummeted to 10% from 26% in 1992, while the number who think of themselves as exclusively "Taiwanese" has jumped to 42% from 17%. Meanwhile, a November poll by the island's Mainland Affairs Council reveals a similarly negative response to China's only model for reunification: the Hong Kong formula of "one country, two systems." Just 7% of respondents found that formulation acceptable, while 71% considered it unsuitable for Taiwan. Analysts on the island agree that China largely brought this problem upon itself. By blocking Taiwan's entry into almost every international organization and isolating the island diplomatically, all the while threatening it with military action if it goes its own way, China allows itself to be painted as a neighborhood bully by Taiwan politicians looking to garner support from disaffected voters. For many on the island, the final straw was the SARS crisis early last year, when China blocked World Health Organization (WHO) officials from touching down in Taiwan. The upshot was that in the early days of the outbreak, hospital administrators had to rely on the Internet to find effective measures to control the spread of the virus on the island.

Taipei resident Chen Pei-jun, a 31-year-old biotech researcher with a Ph.D. from the University of Michigan, is the kind of voter the KMT needs to win back. As a teenager, Chen's heart belonged to China. A brilliant student, she attended the exclusive Taipei First Girls Senior High School, directly opposite the presidential office. In school she learned matter-of-factly that the red brick office, built in 1919 during the half century Taiwan spent under Japanese colonial rule, was occupied by the legitimate government of China. Each morning, on her way to class, Chen reverently observed the President's guards slowly hoisting the red, white and blue Republic of China flag. She shared the KMT dream that one day this flag would again fly over Tiananmen Square. At night she read books by mainland-born writers—wistful childhood memoirs set in Hunan or Fujian or Shanghai. "I wept," she says. "Their experience became my experience. Their China was my China. I longed to return. I was the perfect Chinese." Today Chen is remodeling herself as the perfect Taiwanese, and has given up on reunification. Her transformation began when she went to the U.S. in 1995 to study. On campus, she met students from the mainland and realized she had nothing in common with them, and bristled when they described Taiwan's President as a "provincial governor." In her spare time she read books about the island and its history, written by exiled dissidents, which were not available in Taiwan. Since returning from the U.S. in 2002, two years after the KMT was first knocked from power by the DPP, she has been filling in the gaps of what she calls her "missing years." "The KMT lied to me," she says. "I was brainwashed. They made me think I was Chinese just to further their own ends. I'm not. I'm Taiwanese."

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501040315/story.html Good article
 

Makura

Member
Is it because they have this grand notion of "Mother China" like those over-the-top Russian characters in those 80's movies yearning for the ressurection of some mythical Mother Russia?
 

Makura

Member
There are alot of Taiwanese at my program at SVA. The ones I've befriended seem to consider themselves to be Taiwanese, not Chinese.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
They can consider themselves Mexicans if they want to, but in the end, it's all simply political rationalizing. The Han Chinese ethnicity is probably the loosest (widest cultural range) ethnicity in the world. You could sub-divide Chinese into hundreds of smaller ethnicities if there was any impetus to. They're really not different enough culturally (as any intra-Han groups are from each other) to get their ethnic denomination, so that means the real root of the problem is political and some economic chauvinism.

BTW, I think the HK people should promptly stfu. The CCP, as despicable as they are, sunk so much money into lifting their already developed economy from the doldrums, while most parts of China are barely making basic sustenance and living in the middle ages.
 
Stele said:
They can consider themselves Mexicans if they want to, but in the end, it's all simply political rationalizing. The Han Chinese ethnicity is probably the loosest (widest cultural range) ethnicity in the world. You could sub-divide Chinese into hundreds of smaller ethnicities if there was any impetus to. They're really not different enough culturally (as any intra-Han groups are from each other) to get their ethnic denomination, so that means the real root of the problem is political and some economic chauvinism.

Are ethnic similarities really a good excuse for why China treats Taiwan the way it does? I agree that ethnicity might be a good reason for them to be together, but it's a terrible reason for forcing them together. Really, it's like Germany lobbing missiles over Austria for another Anschluss.

About HK: it's not just about money. It's also about having control over your own government.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
It's a matter of a defeated regime that wouldn't capitulate that ran off and set up an exile government. Taiwan's present constitution lays claim to all of mainland China and outer Mongolia anyways. And why does Hong Kong deserve their own government more than the rest of China? HK only grew and flourished, because the rest of the Pearl River Delta and South China didn't. The CCP could easily just sit back and watch cities like Shenzhen, Zhuhai, and Guangzhou overtake Hong Kong and make it obsolete in ten years time.
 
Stele said:
It's a matter of a defeated regime that wouldn't capitulate that ran off and set up an exile government. Taiwan's present constitution lays claim to all of mainland China and outer Mongolia anyways. And why does Hong Kong deserve their own government more than the rest of China? HK only grew and flourished, because the rest of the Pearl River Delta and South China didn't. The CCP could easily just sit back and watch cities like Shenzhen, Zhuhai, and Guangzhou overtake Hong Kong and make it obsolete in ten years time.

HK did have a legislature that was elected by the population before the hand over. The current legislature is heavily lopsided to include mainly people that are elected by few. Also, HK's mini-constitution (most likely approved by China) calls for a full democracy eventually. The "one country, two systems", along with the full democracy pledge is why HK deserves its own government.

Taiwan's present constitution lays claim for China yes, but that's why they should change it. Really, that part of the constitution is practically a moot point by now. The government of Taiwan no longer threatens China with nasty rhetoric or weapons and has no real plans to invade. Beijing is the one that hasn't moved on.
 
CrimsonSkies said:
"Why are they so obssessed with Taiwan?"

They think the Taiwanese people are making too much money. Anyone who makes more than 46 cents per hour must be taken out.

not at all. tawain isn't a legitimate state; it's a renegade province of china, thus their grievances are valid.
 

Azih

Member
Eh, Hong Kong wouldn't become obsolete all that easily, foreigners are much more comfortable in Hong Kong than in the rest of China for fairly obvious reasons, and that makes that the natural place to do business. Hell that's the reason why Dubai in the Middle East flourishes so much.

Plus if the CCP can build it's own commercial regions that would make Hong Kong obsolete so easily then why don't they let the people of Hong Kong do what they want and stop supporting them?
 

GG-Duo

Member
HK politics makes me cry.
I know I'm being sorta melodramatic, but it's really sick how things were/are turning out.

Everybody says that Hu represents "the new China", but so far it just seems like the same old same old, but with more concessions for the purpose of business.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
eggplant said:
HK The current legislature is heavily lopsided to include mainly people that are elected by few. Also, HK's mini-constitution (most likely approved by China) calls for a full democracy eventually. The "one country, two systems", along with the full democracy pledge is why HK deserves its own government.
I know all of this, but that's not what I'm driving at. The very privileged shouldn't bitch. China's Gini Coefficient is already disturbing as it is, and it's because of cities like Hong Kong. And they expect even more? Jesus Christ.

Japan ceded all WWII gains back to its host nations after capitulation. Taiwan is a renegade province.
Eh, Hong Kong wouldn't become obsolete all that easily, foreigners are much more comfortable in Hong Kong than in the rest of China for fairly obvious reasons, and that makes that the natural place to do business.
Okay...if we lived in a timeless vacuum where nothing progresses then you're probably right. Shenzhen and Guangzhou will eventually have everything Hong Kong has *and* a bottomless, cheap labor pool. All these outweigh whatever intangibles "foreign comfort" brings. And there's tons of foreigners in those cities.
 
If China invades Taiwan, then it's because Taiwan brought it onto themselves by voting in a kooky president who likes to play with fire. Even the US policy toward the Strait Crisis is an implied peaceful reunification.
Quote:

you're quite right. in fact, tensions between the two have been exacerbated by taiwan's endless taunts -- through allusions to independence by public officials, legislative moves to that end, and overt gestures towards sympathetic western states. taiwan is engaged in a campaign of provocation, where, absent a complete push for independence, they act in a way to incite china into behavior that would likely see a militaristic response from the u.s. frankly, i think taiwan is overplaying their hand. if china were to invade, which is something i'd like to see, i do not think the u.s. would be so inclined to side with the renegade province.
 
Stele said:
I know all of this, but that's not what I'm driving at. The very privileged shouldn't bitch. China's Gini Coefficient is already disturbing as it is, and it's because of cities like Hong Kong. And they expect even more? Jesus Christ.

China should at least keep its promises. What's so hard with giving them a little bit of autonomy by letting them elect their own governor and legislature? It doesn't sound like it would make China poorer.

freaky: OMG if you want to hear "endless taunts", listen to Beijing. That's where all the saber rattling about invasions and such is coming from. They've been like that for a long time, even when Lee Teng-hui was around and didn't talk much about Taiwanese independence.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
Lee Teng-hui is practically a jap. The CCP has plenty of reasons to rattle stuff at him.
 
Stele said:
Lee Teng-hui is practically a jap. The CCP has plenty of reasons to rattle stuff at him.

What did the CCP say and why? I remember lots of threats of war to take Taiwan, but they say that all the time.
 
eggplant said:
freaky: OMG if you want to hear "endless taunts", listen to Beijing. That's where all the saber rattling about invasions and such is coming from. They've been like that for a long time, even when Lee Teng-hui was around and didn't talk much about Taiwanese independence.

in response to obvious indicators of taiwan's desire to officially divorce themselves from china. why would china allow a renegade province, particularly one with such a lucrative market, to simply breakaway with impunity?
 
freaky zeeky said:
in response to obvious indicators of taiwan's desire to officially divorce themselves from china. why would china allow a renegade province, particularly one with such a lucrative market, to simply breakaway with impunity?

I refer to NetMapel's posts on why China's claim on Taiwan isn't really that legitamate. Looking back on old maps of China, you might not even see Taiwan included as part of China.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
Perception is reality, and since most of the world doesn't recognize Taiwan besides a couple of desperate Oceania islands in need of cash, I think the conclusion is self-explanatory.
 
Stele said:
Perception is reality, and since most of the world doesn't recognize Taiwan besides a couple of desperate Oceania islands in need of cash, I think the conclusion is self-explanatory.

That's why people need to change their perceptions and move on. Change takes time, but Beijing seems to move at an even slower pace than the rest of the world. The main reason why the rest of the world accepts this "one country" idea is because of all the money and influence China has. Most people with some grasp on this topic know it's a charade anyways. However, once we get China to move on, the whole world will move on too.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
...

Perceptions did change, in 1971, when China entered the UN and Taiwan was expelled. When it comes down to it, no country likes separatism.
 
eggplant said:
That's why people need to change their perceptions and move on. Change takes time, but Beijing seems to move at an even slower pace than the rest of the world. The main reason why the rest of the world accepts this "one country" idea is because of all the money and influence China has. Most people with some grasp on this topic know it's a charade anyways. However, once we get China to move on, the whole world will move on too.

and as long as china, a burgeoning superpower, maintains their influence, taiwan's claims to independence won't hold much weight. in a couple decades, after china has cemented their standing in the international community, taiwan will have to accede to china's demands.
 
Stele said:
...

Perceptions did change, in 1971, when China entered the UN and Taiwan was expelled. When it comes down to it, no country likes separatism.

No, change to the reality of Taiwan being an independent country. They have defacto independence but most countries pretend that they don't know that.

Also, Taiwan and China have not been considered "together" for very long, legitamately or not. The Taiwanese that tend to support a combination with China tend to be the people who fled from the mainland, not the Taiwanese that were there originally. Furthermore, polls in Taiwan indicate that the people want to be separate. 70-80 support the status-quo independence and more and more want on-paper independence.
 
freaky zeeky said:
and as long as china, a burgeoning superpower, maintains their influence, taiwan's claims to independence won't hold much weight. in a couple decades, after china has cemented their standing in the international community, taiwan will have to accede to china's demands.

That's why China needs to change, so it doesn't make silly threats and offend other countries. Looking at how China's popularity in South Korea has diminished greatly recently because of a comment, I think that China has a lot to learn.
 

Azih

Member
Okay...if we lived in a timeless vacuum where nothing progresses then you're probably right. Shenzhen and Guangzhou will eventually have everything Hong Kong has *and* a bottomless, cheap labor pool. All these outweigh whatever intangibles "foreign comfort" brings. And there's tons of foreigners in those cities.
I'm not talking in terms of industry (cheap labour pool) or creature comforts ("foreign comfort"), I'm talking in terms of commerce. Hong Kong is already a world class commercial centre and hub of international trade.

One of the things that really cements Hong Kong's role in this regard is the frequency with which people from Hong Kong travel in the rest of the world. I had a ton of friends in university here in Canada that were from Hong Kong and a number of them went back, these people can very easily start some sorta venture between the two places as they have a number of contacts everywhere. I have plenty of friends from China proper as well, but they don't tend to go back with nearly the same frequency.

There are a ton of Canadian businesses in Hong Kong, and a ton of Hong Kong businesspeople own Canadian assets and also have dual nationality. I'm certain that Canada isn't unique in this regard at all. Plus HSBC is an absolutely huge power and has very solid ties with the region as well.

Hong Kong has a ton of natural strengths here.
 
Azih said:
I'm not talking in terms of industry (cheap labour pool) or creature comforts ("foreign comfort"), I'm talking in terms of commerce. Hong Kong is already a world class commercial centre and hub of international trade.

One of the things that really cements Hong Kong's role in this regard is the frequency with which people from Hong Kong travel in the rest of the world. I had a ton of friends in university here in Canada that were from Hong Kong and a number of them went back, these people can very easily start some sorta venture between the two places as they have a number of contacts everywhere. I have plenty of friends from China proper as well, but they don't tend to go back with nearly the same frequency.

There are a ton of Canadian businesses in Hong Kong, and a ton of Hong Kong businesspeople own Canadian assets and also have dual nationality. I'm certain that Canada isn't unique in this regard at all. Plus HSBC is an absolutely huge power and has very solid ties with the region as well.

Hong Kong has a ton of natural strengths here.

Didn't they flee HK because of the upcoming takeover and then make Vancouver's housing prices skyrocket?
 
Furthermore, polls in Taiwan indicate that the people want to be separate. 70-80 support the status-quo independence and more and more want on-paper independence.

if i told my landlord that i no longer wished to pay rent, though i intended to remain in that same apartment, would i not be laughed at and summarily evicted? what if i polled everyone in my household, including the wife and kids, arriving at a consensus to stay? predictably, the landlord would call the police and have us ousted, right? so, what relevance is the unanimity of pro-independence sentiment in an illegitimate state?
 
freaky zeeky said:
if i told my landlord that i no longer wished to pay rent, though i intended to remain in that same apartment, would i not be laughed at and summarily evicted? what if i polled everyone in my household, including the wife and kids, arriving at a consensus to stay? predictably, the landlord would call the police and have us ousted, right? so, what relevance is the unanimity of pro-independence sentiment in an illegitimate state?

Again, I refer back to Netmapel's posts.

Then again, maybe Taiwan should just live with the defacto independence it has(but it's still independance). Or it can fight for it's independance like India, America, or like countless other countries so it can gain the respect it deserves.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
I don't think Taiwan deserves independence the same way I don't think Hong Kong people deserve more priviledges. Why do you think Taiwan deserves independence, eggplant? It seems to me all it boils down to is an undeserving self-entitlement stemming from wealth. And don't even bother mentioning self-determination, because I already refuted that.
Azih said:
Hong Kong has a ton of natural strengths here.
Cities do not flourish for no reason. Hong Kong flourished because it was the only developed port in South China at the time. In early communist rule and colonial times, Hong Kong was the only major junction to ship goods into and out of South China. Hong Kong got fat off the special exclusivity -- that was their only strength, and it wasn't a natural one at all. Hong Kong was able to industrialize under very special circumstances if removed would have led to a significantly different result today, in many ways parallel to Taiwan (the Nationalist exodus). Had the Nationalist not lost and concentrated all their resources on an island, Taiwan would be in shambles today. With that advantage gone now, Hong Kong is on an inevitable decline. But that's just physics.
 

Azih

Member
Didn't they flee HK because of the upcoming takeover and then make Vancouver's housing prices skyrocket?
Yeah that happened like crazy in the 90s, since the worst case scenario that people were fearing didn't really materialise a lot of those people are living in both places and some have moved back.
 
Stele said:
I don't think Taiwan deserves independence the same way I don't think Hong Kong people deserve more priviledges. Why do you think Taiwan deserves independence, eggplant? It seems to me all it boils down to is an undeserving self-entitlement stemming from wealth. And don't even bother mentioning self-determination, because I already refuted that.

I didn't catch the part where you refuted self-determination. Please point the way to the post.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom