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[videogamer]

Taiwanese isn't an ethnicity.

Repost of my post:


Are ethnic similarities really a good excuse for why China treats Taiwan the way it does? I agree that ethnicity might be a good reason for them to be together, but it's a terrible reason for forcing them together. Really, it's like Germany lobbing missiles over Austria for another Anschluss.


Also: you don't have to have an ethnicity to have your own country.

self determination:

1. [n] determination of one's own fate or course of action without compulsion
2. [n] government of a country by its own people (nothing about ethnicity here)

 

[Azih]

Cities do not flourish for no reason. Hong Kong flourished because it was the only developed port in South China at the time. In early communist rule and colonial times, Hong Kong was the only major junction to ship goods into and out of South China. Hong Kong got fat off the special exclusivity -- that was their only strength, and it wasn't a natural one at all. Hong Kong was able to industrialize under very special circumstances if removed would have led to a significantly different result today, in many ways parallel to Taiwan (the Nationalist exodus). Had the Nationalist not lost and concentrated all their resources on an island, Taiwan would be in shambles today. With that advantage gone now, Hong Kong is on an inevitable decline. But that's just physics.

There's also the matter of inertia Stele, since Hong Kong has propsered for so long it's got infrastructure, international standing, its people have a lot of contact with the outer world, it is home to a lot of influential organisations, and businesses/corporations are just more comfortable in any area that prizes democracy (your assets are more secure from government interference). Certainly China has it all over Hong Kong in terms of industrial advantages, but Hong Kong has it all over China when it comes to commerce, and some of the most compelling advantages Hong Kong has are intrinsically tied to the desire for more democracy.

The historical reason for Hong Kong flourishing is hardly the only thing that it's got up its sleeves today.

 

[Stele]

[n] government of a country by its own people (nothing about ethnicity here)

Then they really just give the island back to the Polynesians.
---

Certainly China has it all over Hong Kong in terms of industrial advantages, but Hong Kong has it all over China when it comes to commerce, and some of the most compelling advantages Hong Kong has are intrinsically tied to the desire for more democracy.

The Brits never gave Hong Kong democracy and fair representation and they did fine, no? If you want to talk infrastructure, just look at Shenzhen in the early 90s or Shanghai before the 20s. Shifts of influence and commerce in this age goes without further rhetoric. Everything you bring up are transitory factors that will wane as the city's indispensability dissolves. Do you really believe big business cares about democracy? lol

 

[videogamer]

Then they really just give the island back to the Polynesians.

What about "the Polynesians"? That was an unclear post. If you are talking about, say Hawaii, then keep in mind that only a small number of them want independance. The island has had a lot of immigration and people generally want to remain in the country. Taiwan's opinions are greatly different.

 

[Stele]

...

The indigenous people of Taiwan, which 98% of the population are not apart of.

 

[videogamer]

...

The indigenous people of Taiwan, which 98% of the population are not apart of.

No, I'm talking about the whole population in general being able to choose their own destiny.

 

[Stele]

Then we'd have a thousand freakin' countries. Self-determination is not used in this context.

 

[videogamer]

Then we'd have a thousand freakin' countries. Self-determination is not used in this context.

Taiwan already has de-facto independance, which makes a big difference. Also, China has a shitty record when it comes to human rights. If China cleaned up its act, it could at least act like other countries and really give the local people a say in their government.

 

[Draff]

If every country used history as a basis of claiming another "renegade province", then using that logic, Canada and the US would be controlled by England.

If China wants Taiwan back, threats certainly aren't one way to sway the population. There's virtually no benefits for Taiwan to rejoin other than to have some puppet government set up that will ultimately be controlled by Beijing alone.

It's easy to say Taiwan belongs to China if you're not Taiwanese yourself.

As for corporations and not caring about the government. The problem is that Beijing insists that the large corporations 'partner' up with state-run. Meanwhile, these state-run companies are running off and selling copies and making knock-offs. The government isn't doing a good job at protecting intellectual properties.

 

[Azih]

Big business cares about operating in an environment where the government of the day doesn't wake up one day and decide to nationalise all assets Hong Kong remains the best place in China for that kind of security. I mean sure this is best achieved through a friendly, corrupt dictatorship, but Hong Kong isn't a bad second best.

The Brits never gave Hong Kong democracy and fair representation and they did fine, no?

Sure but I'm talking about here and now, not the past. We both know the historical reasons for Hong Kong's prosperity, but in the current situation capitalist corps (the organisations that control economic power) are more comfortable with the Hong Kong way of doing things (hell some of the most important are HQed there) and that counts for a fair bit, and that is something that hasn't been exported to the mainland.

Certainly China is changing rapidly and most of the reasons why Hong Kong was the only viable place to do business are gone; when it gets to the point that the CCP no longer feels threatened by Hong Kong's desire for reprsentation then all advantages will be gone. But in that situation Hong Kong will become China's pride and joy, not a place viewed by suspicion.

I mean really I get the impression you want to get rid of the 'one nation, two systems' approach because why should the wealthy Hong Kong elites get the political priviliges?. I agree with that sentiment, but I want everybody in China to start acting like Hong Kong instead of forcing Hong Kong to act like the rest of the mainland. China's halfway there anyway with the CCP's reforms, and in terms of culture (plastic surgery, cars instead of bicycles etc.), it's really just political power that the CCP is holding onto.

Shifts of influence and commerce in this age goes without further rhetoric.

Yes it does happen, but it doesn't happen easily, you're underestimating the effect of inertia, if a place is good for business then it tends to remain a choice place to invest, and the growth of other regional powers doesn't kill it... hell the powers can feed off each other in certain situations.

Everything you bring up are transitory factors that will wane as the city's indispensability dissolves

Not the most important factor to my mind, the people. The people of Hong Kong are well educated and capitalist. This will change in the mainland as infrastructure gets built up, *but* the biggest reason why Hong Kong people are that way isn't infrastructure, it's because they're open to outside influences to a far greater degree than the censor happy mainland Chinese. That's the biggest factor to my mind, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I might be wrong but like I said earlier, if that changes and the mainland becomes less censorious then Hong Kong will go from being looked at as the rebellious uppity troublemaker to the commercial, banking, trading capital of China that will funnel prosperity to the mainland.

Hong Kong as it is, desire for democracy and all, has the potential to be China's greatest asset. The mainland should make use of it to its fullest potential and not try to force it to give up its unique qualities to bring it in line with the rest of the country.

 

[Stele]

No, Brits claiming America would be irredentism. That's not what China is doing. Something like China claiming Vladivostok and greater Siberia would be. Taiwan is a Han Chinese region controlled by Han Chinese. Your analogy fails.
---

Big business cares about operating in an environment where the government of the day doesn't wake up one day and decide to nationalise all assets Hong Kong remains the best place in China for that kind of security.

Ah, I see. That's why China received about 30 bil. in FDI the first half of this year alone, and has a cumulative amount of over 100 bil. from Taiwan (who manifestly should have plenty of reasons for caveat). China, nationalize all assets in this day and age? Maybe in a Tom Clancy book. China is in the WTO for shit's sake.

I agree with that sentiment, but I want everybody in China to start acting like Hong Kong instead of forcing Hong Kong to act like the rest of the mainland. China's halfway there anyway with the CCP's reforms, and in terms of culture (plastic surgery, cars instead of bicycles etc.), it's really just political power that the CCP is holding onto.

Fucking lovely. The urban bourgeoisie can now afford plastic surgery. I suppose that's a step up from everyone being uniformly poor. What you don't seem to grasp is, political freedom is not the elixir to rural reform and bridging the enormous income gap. Just look at the former Soviet bloc. You can't eat freedom, buddy. With the scarcity of resources, cities like Hong Kong are drains and burdens, not beacons of prosperity.

The people of Hong Kong are well educated and capitalist. This will change in the mainland as infrastructure gets built up, *but* the biggest reason why Hong Kong people are that way isn't infrastructure, it's because they're open to outside influences to a far greater degree than the censor happy mainland Chinese.

lol, you...really don't have anything concrete, do you? I think you've exhausted your abstractions.

 

[Draff]

... who now identify themselves as Taiwanese... just like say, Americans who may have been British before emigrating to the US calling themselves American.

 

[Fresh Prince]

So wait....
Taiwan is China's Hawaii or Guam?

 

[videogamer]

... who now identify themselves as Taiwanese... just like say, Americans who may have been British before emigrating to the US calling themselves American.

Yeah, after being separated for so long, they can develop their own separate identity. Also, the way that China treats them isn't helpful at all.

Fresh Prince: could you explain more about Hawaii and Guam?

 

[Azih]

No, Brits claiming America would be irredentism. That's not what China is doing. Something like China claiming Vladivostok and greater Siberia would be. Taiwan is a Han Chinese region controlled by Han Chinese. Your analogy fails.

Ethnicity is overrated. If a person thinks he's Taiwanese, he Taiwanese end of story.

Plus who the heck says one ethnicity can't have more than one country? I mean those dang Anglo Saxons have a bunch of them.

 

[Fresh Prince]

I was thinking more in terms of geograhical location than any historical implictions (although I think Hawaii was not that 'mutual').
Also Stele seems to think that countries can not be 'coerced' to give a state it's sovreinighty(sp?). Look at East Timor and Papa New Guinea. Granted Indonesia nor Australia is not a super power but under the right circumstances changes can be instaintiated.
Improbable as that is China could do the same.

 

[videogamer]

I was thinking more in terms of geograhical location than any historical implictions (although I think Hawaii was not that 'mutual').
Also Stele seems to think that countries can not be 'coerced' to give a state it's sovreinighty(sp?). Look at East Timor and Papa New Guinea. Granted Indonesia nor Australia is not a super power but under the right circumstances changes can be instaintiated.
Improbable as that is China could do the same.

Taiwan is pretty close to the mainland.

 

[Stele]

Yeah, after being separated for so long, they can develop their own separate identity. Also, the way that China treats them isn't helpful at all.

Southern Fujian culture isn't that different from Taiwan. They even have the same topolects. 18% of Taiwan are also Nationalist exiles. A shitload of intra-Han groups have their own identites. The Wu culture and language stemming from the Warring States era kingdom still exists in Shanghai (southern Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang). Hunan has its own topolect family (Xiang) that is mutually unintelligible to anything else in China. Guangdong is Yue. Fujian is Min, which Taiwan is an offshoot of. Why Taiwan people think they're more special to hundreds of other groups is purely vanity.

 

[Draff]

political freedom is not the elixir to rural reform

Well, I'm sure the population that was displaced without compensation by the 3 Gorges Dam would have appreciated some political representation. Reform can happen if the government listens to its own people.

Regardless of whether or not the cultures are 100% similar is irrelevent. You can say that Canadian culture is a carbon copy of the US. While overall, it may seem similar, there are a lot of aspects that are different. It's not as easy as comparing dialects and origins.

 

[Fresh Prince]

You're right, my mistake.
However East Timor is directly connected to Indonesia through West Timor

 

[videogamer]

Southern Fujian culture isn't that different from Taiwan. They even have the same topolects. 18% of Taiwan are also Nationalist exiles. A shitload of intra-Han groups have their own identites. The Wu culture and language stemming from the Warring States era kingdom still exists in Shanghai (southern Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang). Hunan has its own topolect family (Xiang) that is mutually intelligible to anything else in China. Guangdong is Yue. Fujian is Min, which Taiwan is an offshoot of. Why Taiwan people think they're more special to hundreds of other groups is purely vanity.

Having an identity doesn't require a separate culture or language. It can become from an emotional connection to a group of people or an ideal, among other things. What's wrong with thinking that you are unique? Also, refer to Fresh Prince's post about anglo saxons.

 

[Azih]

Why Taiwan people think they're more special to hundreds of other groups is purely vanity.

Or maybe, you know they just want to govern themselves differently from how mainland China does it?

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them etcetera etcetera.

Also, refer to Fresh Prince's post about anglo saxons.

 

[videogamer]

You're right, my mistake.
However East Timor is directly connected to Indonesia through West Timor

Heh I forgot about that. However, East Timor fortunately/unfortuantely was able to get international attention because of human rights abuses and the Indonesian government was changing at the time.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Don't hate Azih, the best ideas are unintenionally stolen.

Eggplant, agreed. But remember the ongoing human rights 'case' about China's treatment on the (apoligising in advance for my mispelling it) Fol Long Gon practisioners on mainland China. That if I remember correctly was brought up when the handover to HK was going on and the implications it had on the practisioners on HK as well as other civil liberties. That didn't seem to affect the handover, because China was a world super power.

East Timor's initial independance was brought about great timing.
However Acahe's (sp?) independance unfortunately will be left out.

 

[Stele]

Or maybe, you know they just want to govern themselves differently from how mainland China does it

No shit. That's the core reason. The cultural posturing is just fluff. But, it's just too bad they have little to no political and military power to assert themselves (so all this rhetoric is pointless), and the more they wait for reunification talks, the more concessions from the CCP they're losing out on.

 

[videogamer]

Don't hate Azih, the best ideas are unintenionally stolen.

Eggplant, agreed. But remember the ongoing human rights 'case' about China's treatment on the (apoligising in advance for my mispelling it) Fol Long Gon practisioners on mainland China. That if I remember correctly was brought up when the handover to HK was going on and the implications it had on the practisioners on HK as well as other civil liberties. That didn't seem to affect the handover, because China was a world super power.

East Timor's initial independance was brought about great timing.
However Acahe's (sp?) independance unfortunately will be left out.

IIRC, the mainland Falun Gong crackdown came after the handover. Falun Gong people can still practice in HK, but it looks like there are people trying to undermine them there too.

Tell me about Acahe. I must have missed the news.

 

[Azih]

No shit. That's the core reason. The cultural posturing is just fluff. But, it's just too bad they have little to no political and military power to assert themselves (so all this rhetoric is pointless), and the more they wait for reunification talks, the more concessions from the CCP they're losing out on.

What concessions do you think the CCP would give Taiwan really? Edit: and what concessions will the CCP withdraw as time moves on?

Anyway I think the point of no return between Taiwan and China has in many ways been passed. The old generation that clung to the idea of reuniting China has lost its political hold and the next generation is perfectly happy with being a small, prosperous country. In this sort of a situation to resolve things diplomatically you'd need not only some sort of an agreement to reunite China but also a massive EU style public PR campaign to convince Taiwanese that it's a good idea. Millitary solutions are of course never out of the question but I don't think anybody wants that.

 

[Fresh Prince]

You put me on the spot from what I gather on a quick google:link
it seems more akin to Chechneya and Russia.
I think it really kicked off however when East Timor finally gained independance.

 

[videogamer]

You put me on the spot from what I gather on a quick google:link
it seems more akin to Chechneya and Russia.
I think it really kicked off however when East Timor finally gained independance.

Ah ok I was spelling it wrong.

 

[Stele]

Anyway I think the point of no return between Taiwan and China has in many ways been passed.

I'm glad you're such an optimist, because as far as I see, there is only one certain conclusion of this matter, and that is the reintegration of Taiwan within China. The balance of power is far too unequalized for any other outcome, and with American preoccupations, I don't see us saving their asses if they provoke something to happen. If cross-strait relations are already beyond reconciliation, that can only mean Taiwan eventually gets levelled and gets reintegrated anyway. But judging from your words, you seem to believe Taiwan actually has an exit besides the negotiation tables -- that's a pipe dream. Presently, Taiwan only has sizeable diplomatic recognition from Central America (sans Mexico), and that's due to China, for the moment, has not bothered to actively court Paraguay, Nicaragua, etc. In a couple more years, I could see that happening, and those nations will switch recognition at the hint of a big aid package. Taiwan's diplomatic recognition could be reduced to single digits.

To make things short, the more years go by, the more Taiwan loses. At least with an invasion, Taiwan gains international sympathy, but this dragging feet tactic will make them lose without a fight. Ten years down the road, assuming no attack happens, Taiwan will be almost completely dependent on the mainland economy, politically isolated, and probably even be saturated by mainland pop culture. The de-facto independence becomes de-facto integration. By then, the CCP will hold all the cards to the point that they don't even need to rattle sabers anymore.

 

[Draff]

You see, cultural and economic dependence doesn't mean integration will ensue. Again, I use Canada as an example. Our economy is intertwined with the US, increasingly so due to NAFTA, however, this, along with all of the pop culture streaming through the TV and radio have not made us a pawn for the US. We have an identity because we have our own political ideals.

There is never only one conclusion

 

[Stele]

If we really wanted Canada to do something, we *can,* and if they resist, we can use various sanctions, and eventually they'll do it. Besides, it's not comparable, because we don't actually want to annex Canada.

 

[NetMapel]

I'm glad you're such an optimist, because as far as I see, there is only one certain conclusion of this matter, and that is the reintegration of Taiwan within China. The balance of power is far too unequalized for any other outcome, and with American preoccupations, I don't see us saving their asses if they provoke something to happen. If cross-strait relations are already beyond reconciliation, that can only mean Taiwan eventually gets levelled and gets reintegrated anyway. But judging from your words, you seem to believe Taiwan actually has an exit besides the negotiation tables -- that's a pipe dream. Presently, Taiwan only has sizeable diplomatic recognition from Central America (sans Mexico), and that's due to China, for the moment, has not bothered to actively court Paraguay, Nicaragua, etc. In a couple more years, I could see that happening, and those nations will switch recognition at the hint of a big aid package. Taiwan's diplomatic recognition could be reduced to single digits.

To make things short, the more years go by, the more Taiwan loses. At least with an invasion, Taiwan gains international sympathy, but this dragging feet tactic will make them lose without a fight. Ten years down the road, assuming no attack happens, Taiwan will be almost completely dependent on the mainland economy, politically isolated, and probably even be saturated by mainland pop culture. The de-facto independence becomes de-facto integration. By then, the CCP will hold all the cards to the point that they don't even need to rattle sabers anymore.

Just because Taiwan might not be recognized internationally as a country doesn't mean all trades will cease. I mean, US doesn't recognize Taiwan as a country and they still do a lot of trading. In fact, Taiwan is famous for its electronic products. While I don't think Taiwan has the capability to become independant, there is also certainly no point for us Taiwanese to be intergrated with China. The "One country, two system" thing is a big fat lie and you all know it. So why would the Taiwanese want to lose their democracy ? You Americans, who are proud to be democratic, should be more supportive of another fellow democratic country who is being surpressed by a communist China. But no, the Americans would rather sell us their out-of-date weapons and force our annual budget to be in the red zone because of all the weapons we're forced to buy from US. Also, US is also pushing this ridicoulus counter strike plan to blow up this huge dam in China shall China invade Taiwan. Did you know how pissed both the Taiwanese and Chinese were when that story broke out ? Yeah, THANKS A LOT, MR.BUSH.

 

[Stele]

I don't give two shits about mob rule. I just want to see some economic parity.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Yet it is their democratic-capatilistic nature that makes them 'considerate' of China's claim of Taiwan or should I say Chinese Taipei

 

[NetMapel]

Yet it is their dmocratic-capatilistic nature that makes them 'considerate' of China's claim of Taiwan or should I say Chinese Taipei

Man... the least they can do is call us Chinese-Taiwan. The ROC doesn't just control the Taiwan island ! and there are lots more cities on the island than just Taipei as well.

 

[Draff]

If we really wanted Canada to do something, we *can,* and if they resist, we can use various sanctions, and eventually they'll do it. Besides, it's not comparable, because we don't actually want to annex Canada.

Of course, you can use sanctions.
And we can cut off your oil and energy source

 

[videogamer]

I don't give two shits about mob rule. I just want to see some economic parity.

How would depriving HK of more self-rule and letting Taiwan be independent stop China from obtaining economic parity? What should China do? Tax an annexed Taiwan so it can make up for all the rural poverty?

 

[CrimsonSkies]

Wal Mart

 

[Timbuktu]

Fucking lovely. The urban bourgeoisie can now afford plastic surgery. I suppose that's a step up from everyone being uniformly poor. What you don't seem to grasp is, political freedom is not the elixir to rural reform and bridging the enormous income gap. Just look at the former Soviet bloc. You can't eat freedom, buddy. With the scarcity of resources, cities like Hong Kong are drains and burdens, not beacons of prosperity.

lol, you...really don't have anything concrete, do you? I think you've exhausted your abstractions.

Do you have anything conrete? I would agree with you that democracy certainly isn't the answer to China's problems. If China becomes a democracy now, it would collapse. I think that there are certain standards in education, in economic stability that a country has to attain before it can handle democracy and prosper from it. Hong Kong, in my opinion, are at that level whereas China isn't. The people of the city have never been very poltical minded, they have never had democracy under British rule and they were happy with that. They would still be happy if not for the misrule of their leader Tung, which made them realise that democracy can be useful with his incompetence.

I think Hong Kong's main advantage apart from its history and human resource is it's clear and established system of law, its free economy and its handling of corruption with its ICAC bureau, all of which China does not have and which Hu is now aiming to establish in China. As to your saying Hong Kong being a burden to China, I cannot agree because there is still a line between Hong Kong and China, it's in many ways still a city-state, people from China can't just go and live there by whim as they can in Beijing and Shanghai.

I personally can't think of any advantage a city has that isn't transcient in one timeframe or another. Of course Hong Kong's lost its shine as a British colony, but its people have shown to be resilient, if nothing else. It's changed from a fishing village, to a port, to an industrial city and to a city of commerce already, and pretty quickly too. I don't see why Hong Kong can't keep going, it's got a big role in China still. China will catch up, but that's by no means a bad thing. If China flourishes, Hong Kong will too. The biggest obstacle in its way at the moment is its leader Tung.