nial
Member
After all this time, I've only now looked closer at your profile picture and realized that it's Mogoru Fukuzou.
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Who would have won the 5th generation, if Sony hadn't joined the race?
Esppiral
Member
Aren't we talking about an alternative timeline where Sony didn't join?
One of the reasons many third party abandoned Nintendo was the media storage they all wanted the high capacity of a CD, the Nintendo 64 lacked it.
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Plies
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
Speaking of which, I think if Sony wasn't a competitor, Nintendo would've released the 64DD earlier and given it complete support.
Kokoloko85
Member
I love both but Saturn would of taken some of the games PS1 got because of the CD drive. RE2 and 3, FF7? Persona. Tomb Raider 2-4. Maybe even MGS?
It already outsold N64 in Japan and if it got more sales in Japan it would of beaten N64 worldwide.
Saturn was one of the best JRPG's, Fighting game consoles ever, getting the PS1 games would of made it even better
It already outsold N64 in Japan and if it got more sales in Japan it would of beaten N64 worldwide.
Saturn was one of the best JRPG's, Fighting game consoles ever, getting the PS1 games would of made it even better
3DO business model centered around multiple OEM that could earn money only on hardware and one weak first-party (3DO Company) was faulty.
It was impossible for 3DO to succeed.
Nintendo choices to run with cartridges again with N64 has nothing to do with Sony or the failed "SNES CD / Play Station" ventures with Sony.
Nintendo wanted to control the media so to pad the profits and that it couldn't be easily pirated. Fast access time was also a desirable bonus for the concept of explorable 3D worlds they had in mind.
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Parazels
Member
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
It's really impossible to imagine, because not a few things that happened back then were direct consequences of Sony and Nintendo's feud… including the very existence of the PlayStation itself.
Regarding FF, Yamauchi would never have said those things about sad people playing bad games in their basements, and it's very unlikely that Square would have partnered exclusively with Sega. Japan was all about Nintendo, and Sega would hardly have moved things significantly with the Saturn there, even without Sony in the frame.
Psygnosis made those very important games because the PlayStation existed first and foremost.
And who knows, if the PS wasn't born from a Nintendo CD-based system that never was, maybe the N64 would have used CDs in the end, either as the system's standard storage, or as an add-on that would have pretty much become mandatory, just like it had happened with the Turbografx. And in this case, there's no scenario where the Saturn wins.
The logical answer is the Nintendo (whatever it'd been called if the PS never existed). The Saturn's library wasn't the cool thing Sega offered the US audience with the Genesis, and Nintendo snatched victory in Gen 4 in the end. Mario vs Nights and Clockwork Knight wasn't a battle that Mario could lose this time.
Regarding FF, Yamauchi would never have said those things about sad people playing bad games in their basements, and it's very unlikely that Square would have partnered exclusively with Sega. Japan was all about Nintendo, and Sega would hardly have moved things significantly with the Saturn there, even without Sony in the frame.
Psygnosis made those very important games because the PlayStation existed first and foremost.
And who knows, if the PS wasn't born from a Nintendo CD-based system that never was, maybe the N64 would have used CDs in the end, either as the system's standard storage, or as an add-on that would have pretty much become mandatory, just like it had happened with the Turbografx. And in this case, there's no scenario where the Saturn wins.
The logical answer is the Nintendo (whatever it'd been called if the PS never existed). The Saturn's library wasn't the cool thing Sega offered the US audience with the Genesis, and Nintendo snatched victory in Gen 4 in the end. Mario vs Nights and Clockwork Knight wasn't a battle that Mario could lose this time.
cireza
Member
I don't find that Nintendo is the logical answer seeing that MegaDrive came out on top in Europe and pretty close to a tie in the US, with the SEGA-CD getting quite a lot of attention. If the N64 had remained a cartridge based console, then you can be sure the Saturn would have gotten all these PS1 games from third parties. The Saturn was also the most successful SEGA console in Japan.
The only situation where I can see Nintendo winning is if they had put a CD drive in their console. But even then, we are talking about more than 1.5 year head start for the Saturn.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
People itt are comparing the two systems as they were and assuming exactly the same games would have been released, just re-assigning them to another system that isn't the PS. That's not the way to look at this.
The N64 lacking a lot of games and genres is a direct consequence of the PS having already established a foothold on the market by the time the N64 released. Sony snatched all the third parties, and seeing the numbers it was doing, of course third parties wouldn't risk releasing, say, a fighting game - especially a bad one - on the N64 when it had such better prospects of selling on the PS. Even assuming the N64 was strictly cartridge-based and that it had the same controller in all the alternative realities, people really think Capcom would not have released their fighting games on Nintendo's system?
People just have to consider that the N64 had a number of actual third-party exclusives to realize that, PS not being a thing, its library would have been much bigger, cartridges or not.
The N64 lacking a lot of games and genres is a direct consequence of the PS having already established a foothold on the market by the time the N64 released. Sony snatched all the third parties, and seeing the numbers it was doing, of course third parties wouldn't risk releasing, say, a fighting game - especially a bad one - on the N64 when it had such better prospects of selling on the PS. Even assuming the N64 was strictly cartridge-based and that it had the same controller in all the alternative realities, people really think Capcom would not have released their fighting games on Nintendo's system?
People just have to consider that the N64 had a number of actual third-party exclusives to realize that, PS not being a thing, its library would have been much bigger, cartridges or not.
cireza
Member
Capcom CPS-2 games might fit on cartridges, but the vast majority of the PS1/Saturn libraries' most ambitious games would not. And third parties were moving to CD as a base for their projects.
Third Parties would have largely had the same output. Third Parties make the games they want to make, then accommodate to the platforms available for the most part. A cartridge based N64 cannot make possible games such as FF VII, VIII or MGS. Games would have to be entirely different, and thus, not the vision of the developer... when you have a CD based console readily available that could carry on this vision ?
N64 would have totally needed that CD drive. And for sure, an add-on would have been made available in that scenario, but it might have been too late.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
I don't have the numbers at hand right now. But do they say that Europe was such a significant market for Sega? Sega smashed Nintendo in Europe in the early days, yes, but one of the reasons for that is that they had much better advertising and distribution there, while Nintendo's distribution was patchy and their games came to Europe a lot later than in NTSC markets. It's no wonder that Nintendo later rectified this after their utter defeat with the N64.
Nintendo games and hardware were also more expensive, on average, than Sega's in Europe. Sega was simply the better proposition in a continent where consoles were still pretty niche, and a rather expensive toy for children.
The 1.5-year head start for the Saturn may not have been a thing if Sony didn't throw a spanner in Nintendo's works.
And it's not hard to imagine that Nintendo's new system may have benefited from a PS2-like hype, with people waiting for it instead of going straight for the Saturn. They'd still probably struggle in Europe, but not in the rest of the world.
I can confidently say Sega, a lot of third parties would have jumped ship over to the Saturn since it was a CD-focused console with 3D capabilities, however you cannot rule out that the Atari Jaguar and the 3DO also existed. I think instead of Sony, Panasonic would have released their M2 successor, correcting the problems the 3Do had in terms of console manufacturing and price point.
People underestimate how much hype there was behind CD-ROM technology. back then.
People underestimate how much hype there was behind CD-ROM technology. back then.
cireza
Member
For sure it would have been a much more interesting situation than what we ended up getting with Sony...
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
And the Saturn may have turned out different, and maybe come out earlier, if Sega didn't have the PS to compare their own system to while building the Saturn. Thus, even those games that eventually did release on CD during that generation may not have run as well on a different Saturn. Both the Saturn and the N64 ended up needing a RAM expansion for some games, after all. Releasing earlier and in a significantly different state may have ended up with both systems getting add-ons later down the line.
There's a lot of "if"s in this interesting exercise.
I still think that Nintendo would have caved under the push of important devs such as Square if Sony didn't offer those devs a tempting alternative. And the N64 would have resorted to using CDs one way or another.
Radical_3d
Member
It was bananas. Cartridges were a thing of the past.
cireza
Member
For sure.
I don't think the Saturn would have ended up much different though. It would have not been rushed out at the end of 1994 though, and would have certainly waited another 6 months to build a better launch library.
Never understood why the N64 needed the RAM expansion considering it was a cartridge based system. On Saturn it existed strictly due to the fact that you cannot stream a CD quickly, so really the most basic usage of memory on a CD based console (= having more, for a handful of games because the console already had quite a lot of RAM). While on cartridge you can just stream your content fast enough and don't need that much RAM, theoretically.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
As a console war, definitely.
But Sony did change things big time for this medium, that's a given.
For example, Final Fantasy hit it big in the west mainly because Sony was so determined to push it as a game Nintendo couldn't get. And FF7's success spiraled up into Square's finest hour.
If it were for Nintendo, we may know the game as FFIV. It would have been released to pretty much no fanfare in the US, and who knows what would have been of the series.
cireza
Member
SEGA would have definitely pushed the game, especially as they were big supporters of RPGs and had already released a ton in the West. And the series coming from Nintendo to SEGA would have gathered more interest from SEGA. I can definitely see the game releasing in the exact same state on Saturn.
freemandos
Member
Interesting question, and difficult to ask. Maaaybe Saturn because CD format?
MrJangles
Member
Well they most certainly didn't end up on the n64 either
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
they abandoned Nintendo for Sony's money, cd-rom was just PR.
Parazels
Member
Why did Nintendo move to discs in the GameCube? For the sake of PR?
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
for the same reason they returned with cartridge on Nintendo switch
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It's a very interesting question, and one I've thought about before.
Without the Playstation, both the Saturn and N64 would be different. I know what the Saturn would look like, it would be like the Saturn we got, but minus the extra CPU and maybe some other graphical component. So it would be a lesser Saturn that would be ideal for 2D games with some 3D elements sprinkled in, but full 3D games would be sparse and look worse than they did on our timeline's Saturn.
I'm less sure about what the N64 would look like. Nintendo of the mid-90's was already looking to graphics technology for an edge before Sony fully emerged as a competitor, like with the Super FX chip in Starfox and the Silicon Graphics-created modeling in Donkey Kong Country. So I'm going to tentatively assume that even without the Playstation, Nintendo still would have looked to technology for an advantage in their bitter dogfight with Sega. So the alternate-N64 would probably look similar to the N64 we ended up getting.
So a lesser Saturn with cheap CDs vs. a 3D capable cartridge-based N64? I could see both systems getting more support, with the types of libraries available between them splitting dramatically. Saturn would become a dumping ground for 2D games all kinds - fighting games, FMV-heavy JRPGs, schmups, platformers, dating sims, and Myst-style point and click adventure games. I imagine this Saturn would be plagued by a glut of low-production value drek like the Sega CD suffered from. I would also think a few third-parties would be enticed by the value proposition of the CD format, and try to make a few high-budget games for it, but the pseudo-3D and isometric viewpoints would really limit their appeal.
Conversely, the N64 would still be the top-heavy system. It would have the library it got in our timeline, plus a couple dozen extra 3D heavy hitters. The cartridge format would keep off the low-budget stuff, leaving third-parties to stick to the N64 solely for high-budget, heavily-marketed 3D games. Some risk would be taken out for third-parties with these types of high-budget 3D games, by virtue of the N64 being the only place you could play them.
I could see the N64 winning, with about 40 to 45 million sold, versus maybe 30 million Saturns sold.
What's just as interesting is just how quickly I think both Sega and Nintendo would realize they have to move on from this scenario. Sega would need a real 3D system, and Nintendo would need a CD-based system. I could see Sega releasing a new system as early as 1998 and Nintendo as early as 1999.
Without the Playstation, both the Saturn and N64 would be different. I know what the Saturn would look like, it would be like the Saturn we got, but minus the extra CPU and maybe some other graphical component. So it would be a lesser Saturn that would be ideal for 2D games with some 3D elements sprinkled in, but full 3D games would be sparse and look worse than they did on our timeline's Saturn.
I'm less sure about what the N64 would look like. Nintendo of the mid-90's was already looking to graphics technology for an edge before Sony fully emerged as a competitor, like with the Super FX chip in Starfox and the Silicon Graphics-created modeling in Donkey Kong Country. So I'm going to tentatively assume that even without the Playstation, Nintendo still would have looked to technology for an advantage in their bitter dogfight with Sega. So the alternate-N64 would probably look similar to the N64 we ended up getting.
So a lesser Saturn with cheap CDs vs. a 3D capable cartridge-based N64? I could see both systems getting more support, with the types of libraries available between them splitting dramatically. Saturn would become a dumping ground for 2D games all kinds - fighting games, FMV-heavy JRPGs, schmups, platformers, dating sims, and Myst-style point and click adventure games. I imagine this Saturn would be plagued by a glut of low-production value drek like the Sega CD suffered from. I would also think a few third-parties would be enticed by the value proposition of the CD format, and try to make a few high-budget games for it, but the pseudo-3D and isometric viewpoints would really limit their appeal.
Conversely, the N64 would still be the top-heavy system. It would have the library it got in our timeline, plus a couple dozen extra 3D heavy hitters. The cartridge format would keep off the low-budget stuff, leaving third-parties to stick to the N64 solely for high-budget, heavily-marketed 3D games. Some risk would be taken out for third-parties with these types of high-budget 3D games, by virtue of the N64 being the only place you could play them.
I could see the N64 winning, with about 40 to 45 million sold, versus maybe 30 million Saturns sold.
What's just as interesting is just how quickly I think both Sega and Nintendo would realize they have to move on from this scenario. Sega would need a real 3D system, and Nintendo would need a CD-based system. I could see Sega releasing a new system as early as 1998 and Nintendo as early as 1999.
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Bond007
Member
N64.
In my bubble of life anyway- i never met anyone with a Saturn. I guess it would have been close if third party was distributed between the 2.
If Sega stayed in the fight and released Dreamcast and PS2 didnt exist- i think Sega would have returned to glory there vs Gamecube.
In my bubble of life anyway- i never met anyone with a Saturn. I guess it would have been close if third party was distributed between the 2.
If Sega stayed in the fight and released Dreamcast and PS2 didnt exist- i think Sega would have returned to glory there vs Gamecube.
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Wolzard
Member
Saturn would end up receiving many acclaimed Playstation games:
- Metal Gear Solid was being made for 3DO. A Saturn version would be possible, Kojima liked the Saturn, so much so that he released some games on it like Policenauts.
- FFVII, Square even talked to Sega, after the split with Nintendo, but Sony gained exclusivity, because it paid for the marketing and publishing of the game in the West.
- Tekken was made by ex-Sega people, so there would be a possibility of it appearing on the Saturn. It would have stiff competition with Virtua Fighter.
People talk about Sega's management at the time, but I think this was partly due to the Playstation. The executives went into desperation mode.
Without Sony, I think Sega would have done better, the Saturn would have stayed until mid-2000, the Dreamcast would be more powerful.
Microsoft would never have entered the market, this is an important point. It only entered the console market because the PS2 threatened the PC as a source of entertainment. Sony intended to release Linux for the device (and did release it), which would have conflicted with Windows.
- Metal Gear Solid was being made for 3DO. A Saturn version would be possible, Kojima liked the Saturn, so much so that he released some games on it like Policenauts.
- FFVII, Square even talked to Sega, after the split with Nintendo, but Sony gained exclusivity, because it paid for the marketing and publishing of the game in the West.
- Tekken was made by ex-Sega people, so there would be a possibility of it appearing on the Saturn. It would have stiff competition with Virtua Fighter.
People talk about Sega's management at the time, but I think this was partly due to the Playstation. The executives went into desperation mode.
Without Sony, I think Sega would have done better, the Saturn would have stayed until mid-2000, the Dreamcast would be more powerful.
Microsoft would never have entered the market, this is an important point. It only entered the console market because the PS2 threatened the PC as a source of entertainment. Sony intended to release Linux for the device (and did release it), which would have conflicted with Windows.
Trunx81
Member
Originally, the Saturn was designed as a 2D powerhouse (to compete with the 2D-strong SNES).
When Sega learned that Sony's PlayStation had powerful 3D capabilities (rumors and leaks from former Sony/Philips collaboration days), they rushed to add 3D support—via a second SH-2 CPU.
So N64 easily.
When Sega learned that Sony's PlayStation had powerful 3D capabilities (rumors and leaks from former Sony/Philips collaboration days), they rushed to add 3D support—via a second SH-2 CPU.
So N64 easily.
Stefan.North
Member
It would be neck and neck, with N64 winning by slight margin. Smaller difference than SNES/Gens era.
Something like 50mil N64 vs 48mil Saturn
Something like 50mil N64 vs 48mil Saturn
cartman414
Member
The only reason the SNES CD-ROM deal happened was because Ken Kutaragi pestered them.
Without it, and thus any actual dealings, Nintendo might have taken no more than a cursory glance and passed. Load times were anathema to Nintendo.
Walter Matthau
Member
That's interesting if that's the true story.
I suppose the Saturn would have been more affordable in that scenario, but it would have been unlikely for them to win out in the age of 3D.
Still, the N64 and a 2D focused Saturn with FMV and other benefits of the CD format would have made great complementary consoles.
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
N64 outsold the Saturn more than 3 to 1 despite no disc drive but it is true without the PS1 the Saturn has a niche it lacksd problem is the Saturn was more expensive than the ps1
nkarafo
Member
Which is funny because now optical discs are the thing of the past and solid state tech is where is at.
Optical discs were always shit for real time file access IMO.
Radical_3d
Member
Yeah, is the circle of life. But to diminish it back then is an error.
Esppiral
Member
Do you realise that the Saturn was Hugely successful in Japan even more than the Nintendo 64, even with the Psx being a monster? Now delete the psx from the equation, the Saturn would have destroyed the Nintendo 64 in Japan it actually did....
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Delete PlayStation from the equation, and Square and Nintendo may never have parted ways, with Nintendo getting a good chunk of the games that really turned the tide in Japan. And the same could have happened with all the third parties.
Again, assuming that Saturn and N64 would have released exactly as we know them without PS heavily interfering with the development of both is too simplistic. Nintendo was willing to wet their feet in the CD-ROM ocean, and they backpedaled mainly because they realized that a partnership with Sony would make them lose a lot of money on licenses. This must have influenced the decision to go with cartridges somehow. If all that never happened, the N64 may have used CDs and been more than able to compete against the Saturn in Japan.
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
You made the right reasoning, but then you got lost. Without the Playstation, Nintendo would continue with cartridges, with Enix, Square, Namco, Capcom and all third party games would be suitable for cartridges. They know this, but they act like they don't understand. They think that if the PS1 is taken out of the equation, FFVII will continue to be a game based on pre-rendered graphics and CGI.
Trunx81
Member
How about this theory: Without Playstation, PCs would have become the dominant gaming plattform of the late 90s, early 2000s.
First and foremost, the cost and flexibility of development on PC was vastly superior.
Second, the rise of 3D graphics acceleration on PC perfectly coincided with this vacuum.
PC was the only platform that offered online play.
In short, without the PlayStation to unify the console market, the PC would have emerged as the de facto standard for serious gaming. Its open nature, technical superiority, lower costs, and broader appeal would have outpaced the fractured, outdated, and less developer-friendly consoles of the time. By the early 2000s, the gaming industry would not have been "console vs. PC" — it would have been PC as the industry.
First and foremost, the cost and flexibility of development on PC was vastly superior.
Second, the rise of 3D graphics acceleration on PC perfectly coincided with this vacuum.
PC was the only platform that offered online play.
In short, without the PlayStation to unify the console market, the PC would have emerged as the de facto standard for serious gaming. Its open nature, technical superiority, lower costs, and broader appeal would have outpaced the fractured, outdated, and less developer-friendly consoles of the time. By the early 2000s, the gaming industry would not have been "console vs. PC" — it would have been PC as the industry.
Parazels
Member
Personal calculator is a joke even today,
let alone the sweet 90s!
bobone
Member
I don't think Sega would have had a chance. At least not in the US market.
The N64 was WAY cheaper and in the 90s that made a huge difference. Videogames were still kids toys, especially without Sony in the mix.
I believe the n64 was $150 by 1998. Maybe even in 1997.
Sega absolutely could not have done that. The Saturn cost like $300 to make.
Also, just look at the numbers. The N64 sold 10x the Saturn in the US. It would have been even more drastic without the PS1.
The N64 was WAY cheaper and in the 90s that made a huge difference. Videogames were still kids toys, especially without Sony in the mix.
I believe the n64 was $150 by 1998. Maybe even in 1997.
Sega absolutely could not have done that. The Saturn cost like $300 to make.
Also, just look at the numbers. The N64 sold 10x the Saturn in the US. It would have been even more drastic without the PS1.
Randall365
Member
Wasn't most of the development of the PS based on some collaboration with Nintendo for a SNES CD Rom? If Sony do not enter on their own, that probably continues and the N64 releases sooner and smashes everything in sight - even the 3DO, Jaguar, CD32 and CDI.
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