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[Nokagi]

Here's what I specifically said to you.

Which is why people are on you about this. You say you'd hit the guy in a situation where hitting someone was necessary to escape but not a woman *because* she's a woman.

This is your opinion, and that's fine, but don't act like people were putting words in your mouth.

Well I dunno what else to call it when that's what you keep doing cause I did not say this.My quote about being okay with being called sexist was referring to the fact people like you were calling me that for saying I'd never hit a woman not because I agreed with your hypothetical situation. But I'm done here. You win or something.

 

[ramuh]

I don't know. How is the courts handling cases of mutual violence against each other? If there are physical marks indicating that both were violent with each other, don't both get charged?

Even if you a big guy you do have the right to prevent physical assault against your persons. But in the end, you will likely also be charged if the police pursue the matter.

 

[computers putin']

Everybody has the right to self defense, but me personally I tend to show restraint towards people who are a great deal weaker than me(male or female, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going come across many men who are THAT much weaker than me); It's not a hardline rule for me or anything, but I'm not throwing back unless I'm at risk of getting hurt. Hard to say without being there, but Jay-z didn't look to be at risk really( Solange couldn't even get a clean hit in) so him throwing a shot back would've been excessive imo.

 

[stufte]

Well I dunno what else to call it when that's what you keep doing cause I did not say this.My quote about being okay with being called sexist was referring to the fact people like you were calling me that for saying I'd never hit a woman not because I agreed with your hypothetical situation. But I'm done here. You win or something.

Look, I don't think anyone should hit anyone, for any reason. But I won't pretend that if someone, say, were biting me, that I wouldn't punch them in the face/head to get them to release me. man or woman.

 

[Crazy_Sunshine]

violence is the last refuge of the incompetent

Would you care to expand on this at all?

Anywho, I'll agree with Whoopi on this one. And I'll turn to my state laws whether or not if i'm justified or not.
13-404.A

A person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force

Seems pretty well worded to me. Love how it says nothing about sex of the aggressor as well.

The fact is simple, men and women both have the equal propensity of violence. And you have that right to protect yourself. But every situation is different and you must take into account the totality of the circumstances and choose the best course of action. Most of the time force is not necessary. If I am being assaulted though by any party and i've exhausted all available options to me to withdraw from the confrontation, I will defend my self.

Really isn't much harder than that. How is this even a discussion?

Outdated norms I think are to blame for this.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Everyone has the right to self defense.

Really isn't much harder than that. How is this even a discussion?

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

She's absolutely right.

Once a person attacks you, you have the right to defend yourself within reason whether they have a vagina or not.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

A lot of tough guys in this thread.

Men on average are considerably faster and stronger, carrying a higher proportion of muscle to fat. We have thicker, firmer skin. Our skeletal frame is larger. Our bones are bigger and heavier. We have a higher pain threshold and tolerance level. Thousands of years of contending with violence and aggression from other males has caused us to develop thicker, stronger, foreheads and jaws, much better equipped to withstand a beating. The same punch that might stagger or knockout another man, has a decent chance of killing or seriously injuring a woman.

Yes, you're well with your rights to defend yourself if a woman attacks you, but let's not act like it's the same thing as fighting off another dude.

I don't think most people here are saying this.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

I don't think most people here are saying this.

Yeah, that post is a little odd.

 

[DragonGirl]

If you pick up a sword, you are a combatant and should be respected as such. If you choose nonviolence, your position should also respected. If you are being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself (though i will say you should also temper your response to be appropriate for the level of threat your attacker actually poses. Don't go curb stomping someone who wasn't really dangerous to you and back off if they back off). This should all be true regardless of your sex (exceptions are only for children).

In other words, I agree with her.

 

[Rayis]

I always go with the "do not use violence on anyone regardless of sex" but if they come for you definitely have to defend yourself

 

[heliosRAzi]

We shouldn't blame the victim

 

[Muppet of a Man]

It feels like you're really pushing this sexist narrative to justify your position, but the men on TV who protect the women and children are good guys for reasons that aren't misogynistic.

It sounds like you are doing the same for the the counterpoint. How about you stop trying to point the finger at intent and rather just argue the point?

See I can do what you are doing, as well:

At this point, I think you are either just trolling or playing devil's advocate to try to "win" the argument, or you carry some substantial baggage that is obfuscating your ability to make a well-reasoned argument here. Either way, it's not my problem what you think I'm thinking. I'm really starting to think you are trying to post-rationalize an old-world viewpoint that emanated from patriarchy and is very sexist.

The most ironic thing is that I'm a person that advocates nonviolence in general and looks to stand up for those who can't help themselves or who are at a disadvantage. Always have prided myself on being a defender of those who cannot defend themselves. I feel like a lot of other people in this thread are genuinely arguing this from a similar perspective to mine, female members included.

The worst thing you can do here is try to be the pc police and come off as being sexist yourself but you are doing a good job of it!

 

[UrbanRats]

If you pick up a sword, you are a combatant and should be respected as such. If you choose nonviolence, your position should also respected. If you are being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself (though i will say you should also temper your response to be appropriate for the level of threat your attacker actually poses. Don't go curb stomping someone who wasn't really dangerous to you and back off if they back off). This should all be true regardless of your sex (exceptions are only for children).

In other words, I agree with her.

A sword? Well, that's an odd example.

 

[StayDead]

Well, as long as you know you're perpetuating sexist norms.

How is treating everyone exactly the same (law wise, moral wise and otherwise) being sexist?

If we want to have equallity it should be equal on all levels. Fathers should have the same rights as mothers, women should be able to be paid the same amount as men and get the same jobs, people should have the right to stand up for themselves no matter who is attacking them and both should be entitled to similar benefits and healthcare.

You can't want equality as long as it benefits you more, that's not how equality works.

 

[Velcro Fly]

To me as a man there's a certain threshold that needs to be crossed. She was hitting him, yes, but I'm not sure if crossed that threshold of where you need to do more than covering up.

I mean it's Jay-Z. If he had hit her back it would have been such a huge story and would have been a blow to his image and all that. I'm glad he didn't hit her back.

 

[Zoe]

How is treating everyone exactly the same (law wise, moral wise and otherwise) being sexist?

The guy said he won't.

 

[magnetic]

A lot of tough guys in this thread.

Men on average are considerably faster and stronger, carrying a higher proportion of muscle to fat. We have thicker, firmer skin. Our skeletal frame is larger. Our bones are bigger and heavier. We have a higher pain threshold and tolerance level. Thousands of years of contending with violence and aggression from other males has caused us to develop thicker, stronger, foreheads and jaws, much better equipped to withstand a beating. The same punch that might stagger or knockout another man, has a decent chance of killing or seriously injuring a woman.

Yes, you're well with your rights to defend yourself if a woman attacks you, but let's not act like it's the same thing as fighting off another dude.

In discussions like these, people always move away from the actual problem at hand and start fabricating their own storyline of "what people are saying". It´s about self-defense, not a cage fight.

Also, I know a lot of women who would be quite angry at your way of describing women like that. By that logic, women should also not be able to join the police or do any kind of heavy work, since they´re such fragile little dolls.

I think it´s very important that we always talk about the specifics and not start to drift off into a purely theoretical territory with wild analogies and metaphors - especially when gender, race or sexual orientation is involved. As with all discussions ever, it´s not going to happen, though.

 

[paperboywriter]

Are there any specifics about the "fight" between jayz and the women? Was he injured?

Also, this is not a moral issue. of course he should defend himself. The issue is rather what happens after hitting a women as (or not as) a public figure.
Doesn't look good.

 

[lawful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm2l0pxYw-4

 

[mckmas8808]

To a degree she is right. But men should use common sense. I mean Jay-Z shouldn't have beat her senseless. But if he mushed her in the head or punched her in the shoulder, it would be understood.

 

[DragonGirl]

A sword? Well, that's an odd example.

It's not an example, it's a metaphor for an armed or aggressive person.

 

[Dali]

I don't think Jay was ever really worried about the blows coming his way. If he'd have clocked her I agree with Whoopi that that's his right to self defense. But since he wasn't getting decked or at least appeared to be having as much difficulty as a kid would with their little brother, he made the wiser choice of just rolling with it. I don't think many level headed people at all would have an issue with a dude retaliating if it looks like an even match or the dude is losing. I guess what Whoopi said is so controversial because she didn't add that caveat? I don't think it needs to be added eithe.

To a degree she is right. But men should use common sense. I mean Jay-Z shouldn't have beat her senseless. But if he mushed her in the head or punched her in the shoulder, it would be understood.

Men should use common sense but so should women. You've got a grown ass woman attacking a dude double her weight. Like obviously she shared the mentality of the people mad at Whoopi thinking "It's ok for me to get physically violent. It's not like he's going to hit me."

 

[Bleepey]

I wouldn't blame any guy for hitting back and defending themself from being hit by women. However I don't think men should hit women, that said I don't think I can have too much sympathy for women who get in a man's face and find out that there are men who are progressive enough to treat women like they're equals and knock them out.

 

[wildfire]

I'm interested in this.

No problem.

Wow, I cant believe some of the comments in this thread. Women are fragile in comparison to men. You do not hit women period.

She's not right. If you get punched in the side of the face you turn the other cheek. That's what Jesus did.

Fending off blows is one thing. Call me sexist or whatever, but i'm wholly against hitting women. The only exception for me is if they're armed or something....

And these are edge cases.

While I am part of the "you shouldn't hit a woman" side, I do disagree with you. Women aren't made of glass dude. Like others have said just use as much force as necessary.

I don't get it. You could see whats-his-face defend himself perfectly well without striking his aggressor. So, theoretically, it shows you DON'T have to strike a woman to defend yourself.
Now of course if there was no one there to assist you as the bodyguard there was able to restrain her fairly well, then maybe you may need to use more force. But in my experiance, and I have seen several men vs woman fights on a drunken Friday night, the man does'nt use fists because it's an unfair fight. Now, if the woman is using a bottle or some other weapon and you can't get away then maybe there's no option.
But it still stands, he defended himself without using his fists so where does this idea come from that he is right to use his fists when it is plainly visible that there was no need to?

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

What was Liz Hasselbeck's response? I'm assuming she flipped the fizzity fuck out.

Oh wait, she's on Fox News now instead of the View. Of course. Shows how much I pay attention.

So, for Jay Z, what the hell is he supposed to do if not fight back? Sit there and take it? Now you have everyone in the world thinking you're a pussy.

So what is the proper answer? Treat all women like frigging goddesses and give them everything they want so they don't hit you and put you into this catch-22 situation?

 

[OriginofHysteria]

I thought we were striving for equality here?

Of course she's right in this regard.

 

[kerotan_eater]

She's not wrong ... but oddly enough I highly doubt I would be capable of doing it ... its probably social conditioning or something.

 

[hirokazu]

Nothing wrong with her opinion. Obviously, there's an appropriate level for fight back. It's not like she's suggesting to beat the woman senseless.

On the other hand, I can see how some will view it as a endorsement for men to use violence though, given how society treats domestic violence against women (and for good reason).

EDIT: wow, are some of the responses. I'm pretty much against hitting women in any situation, but women are fragile? Wow, what is this even.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

I thought we were striving for equality here?

Of course she's right in this regard.

Pick and choose where you want equality.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

She's not wrong ... but oddly enough I highly doubt I would be capable of doing it ... its probably social conditioning or something.

There's nothing wrong with that, because you have most likely been influenced since birth to not hit women in situation where you're fine hitting men.

I would be more averse to using physical violence versus a woman than a man in a situation like that, which I recognize is a sexist response that society has conditioned me to exhibit, and continues to do so through sexist norms. Especially in a physical situation where I'd be acting instinctively, on the norms that society has crammed into my head over the last 20 or so years.

That doesn't stop us from discussing it though, and taking steps towards a more egalitarian society.

 

[DragonGirl]

If you need to defend yourself, then defend yourself. But do so in a fashion appropriate to your situation. People come in all shapes, sizes, and degrees of strength. There are large powerful women, and small fragile men. Going by the idea that all women in this situation should be treated one way while all men should be treated in another is simply wrong and simple minded, not to mention inappropriate. How you defend yourself should not be based on the sex of your attacker but their apparent size and strength. Veering the conversation off into "but most women are thus" vs "most men are so" is just non sequitur.