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Why are people no longer having sex in Japan?

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I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I'm sure its their old that actually hates immigrants

Setting aside the group of people that hates anything different than them, which all countries have, the Japanese do not hate immigrants. They hate lazy immigrants. Most Asian cultures require a lot more effort and learning than simply knowing the language or knowing that you bow. There's a different way of doing things in almost every daily circumstance (literally, even down to how you pay for shit at a conbini), and a lot of the foreigners I came across in my years there are just too fuckin lazy to ever try to learn or adapt. And it's not even about becoming some weeaboo otaku Davido-kun expert of Japanese culture, it's about humbling yourself a bit a to try and learn and conform to a lifestyle that is more than likely much different than your own.

There's a reason why a great deal of foreigners (who are not actually trained in education) fall into English teaching jobs in Japan, or why after years and years you'll still find foreigners who can barely speak Japanese or know how to transfer ownership of a car or know what color tie to wear to what occasion - it's because they're lazy and choose the easiest way of living there. A lot of people used to counter that the barrier of entry is impossibly high for foreigners for anything but some sort of teaching job, but I always asked those people just how much they applied themselves in terms of not just the language but the culture. Not surprisingly, it was always very little. Sorry, off topic.
 
The German society still expects the parents (mostly the mother) to watch over the children, daycare is still not as developed as it should be.

Because it can be quite hard to find a daycare centre in case both parents work. All benefits are no use if you don't have a place for your kid.

That's only one of the reasons, but I guess a rather big one.

Oh. Well considering how the birthrate has been way below replacement level for over three decades maybe your politicans should start to fix the daycare problem =P. Sure for now unlike Japan you guy have postponed the demographic problems with immigration.



Most women I know simply don't want children. Same goes for man. I don't know what's so hard to understand. The times when children were an integral part of our life are long gone.

Well sure that is true but when you have neighboring developed countries with way higher birthrates I really don't know if that is a real reason.
 

Neo C.

Member
Oh. Well considering how the birthrate has been way below replacement level for over three decades maybe your politicans should start to fix the daycare problem =P. Sure for now unlike Japan you guy have postponed the demographic problems with immigration.
Mentality also plays a role. IIRC, people in the US don't mind having kids in subpar life circumstances, while the Germans (and the Swiss) want to make sure they have the resources for a family.


Well sure that is true but when you have neighboring developed countries with way higher birthrates I really don't know if that is a real reason.
In case of France, it's a mix of daycare infrastructure and women not having the stigma of bad mother when they let other people taking care of their kids.
 

2San

Member
Pretty much the same here but i wouldn't say its a bad thing for a child to come home from school and one of the parent is home. Daycare would kinda suck if you ask me. But then again im mostly speaking from my own experience growing up as a child, mom was there to pick me up from school or to have friends over at my place. My mom also works now again so its not like its impossible to find work here in the Netherlands as a parent.
The Dutch way seems to be that the mom works part time especially when the children are younger.
 
Maybe they need to show people actually enjoying sex rather than the woman crying through it [porn]. That shit sure doesnt do anything for me

Nailed it. If their porn is even remotely reflective of Japan's sex culture - then I have no doubt this story is accurate.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Nailed it. If their porn is even remotely reflective of Japan's sex culture - then I have no doubt this story is accurate.

I.. have a feeling a lot of westerners here don't have sex the way western porn portrays either..
 

watershed

Banned
Maybe I just have an outsider looking in perspective but it seems to me that contemporary Japan has a culture that views real sex as unappealing, dirty, and not pleasurable. Its kind of like they have to get really drunk in order to have sex otherwise its unbearable or immoral to want to have sex. I don't know, maybe I am crazy.
 

Hypereides

Gold Member
A survey earlier this year by the Japan Family Planning Association (JFPA) found that 45% of women aged 16-24 "were not interested in or despised sexual contact".

More than a quarter of men felt the same way.

I don't even

Aoyama cites one man in his early 30s, a virgin, who can't get sexually aroused unless he watches female robots on a game similar to Power Rangers.

I guess this dude doesn't know about role-play?

Around 70% of Japanese women leave their jobs after their first child

That's crazy.

The World Economic Forum consistently ranks Japan as one of the world's worst nations for gender equality at work.

Going by the testimonies in the article, I can say i'm not surprised.
 

Kinyou

Member
Maybe my view is skewed but by judging from movies and porn it always seemed like sex is regarded as something that the woman isn't even supposed to enjoy
 

Skinpop

Member
Pretty much the same here but i wouldn't say its a bad thing for a child to come home from school and one of the parent is home. Daycare would kinda suck if you ask me. But then again im mostly speaking from my own experience growing up as a child, mom was there to pick me up from school or to have friends over at my place. My mom also works now again so its not like its impossible to find work here in the Netherlands as a parent.

But my field of work is easily doable at home so i wouldn't mind being a stay at home dad. All i really need is computer hardware and internet to do some programming when kids are at school. Japan being a country with good internet infrastructure you would think they would have more people working at home but then again i know absolutely nothing about japanese culture.
I don't know how common it is but it's getting more popular for housewives to have business from home like running a e-shop, commercial blogging or something like that.

I think the decline also has something to do with the decline in family businesses. In a typical japanese family that runs a business the wife will usually be quite involved with the everyday business. These days it's very risky to start a business in japan so proportionally much more people end up going for some big company career.

I agree with you that having a parent at home is in fact a good thing. I hated that my parent were never home at all and I know I lack something because of that. It baffles me how people think it's more important for everyone to be working for the benefit of society than properly raising your children.

Japan just need to become more relaxed when it comes to part time employment and allowing men to be the housewives. There are many instances where the wife in a marriage is the career driven one and the husband wouldn't mind taking care of the house hold but socially it's still very awkward(that goes for western countries as well). But things are already moving that way, it's purely anecdotal but I know several women in japan where in their families the husband only works 50% and spends the rest taking care of children/house - so there is hope for the future.

Combine that with a system where you don't have to quit your work but can still do 50%(many women in families that aren't well of will do some kind of part time work anyway) if you'd like to and the equation is suddenly much easier to satisfy without sacrificing time spent attending to children/household.

Last piece of the puzzle is that of the first paragraph, make it cheaper to put kids through school.

Making a push for eliminating housewifing from japan would be a horrible thing to do. I wouldn't wanna live on this planet anymore if that were to happen. Put the effort towards social acceptance of men-house-wifes, more flexible working conditions and more manageable child raising costs and even japan will be just fine.
 
Mentality also plays a role. IIRC, people in the US don't mind having kids in subpar life circumstances, while the Germans (and the Swiss) want to make sure they have the resources for a family.

I have always found it pretty weird how US generally has better fertility rate than majority of European countries when in US the actual birth costs a lot of money, you have millions of people without any kind of health care, school beyond high schools costs a lot of money and at least as far as I have unterstood you really don't have too many parental benefits either.

In case of France, it's a mix of daycare infrastructure and women not having the stigma of bad mother when they let other people taking care of their kids.

Yeah. It seems that in France they have really nailed the daycare infrastructure. Don't know about the ''bad mother when they let other people taking care of their kids'' stigma though that is it a recent change or has it been in French culture always. It's rather ironic though that back in pre WWII days France had pretty much the lowest birthrate in the world and nowadays they have the highest in developed Europe.
 
Setting aside the group of people that hates anything different than them, which all countries have, the Japanese do not hate immigrants. They hate lazy immigrants. Most Asian cultures require a lot more effort and learning than simply knowing the language or knowing that you bow. There's a different way of doing things in almost every daily circumstance (literally, even down to how you pay for shit at a conbini), and a lot of the foreigners I came across in my years there are just too fuckin lazy to ever try to learn or adapt. And it's not even about becoming some weeaboo otaku Davido-kun expert of Japanese culture, it's about humbling yourself a bit a to try and learn and conform to a lifestyle that is more than likely much different than your own.

There's a reason why a great deal of foreigners (who are not actually trained in education) fall into English teaching jobs in Japan, or why after years and years you'll still find foreigners who can barely speak Japanese or know how to transfer ownership of a car or know what color tie to wear to what occasion - it's because they're lazy and choose the easiest way of living there. A lot of people used to counter that the barrier of entry is impossibly high for foreigners for anything but some sort of teaching job, but I always asked those people just how much they applied themselves in terms of not just the language but the culture. Not surprisingly, it was always very little. Sorry, off topic.
Is this how you got your username? This is one of the most pretentious posts I've read. None of those things have to be attributed to laziness, and doing so is a huge nonsensical assumption. Why would someone lazy live a difficult life in a culture they don't understand instead of moving elsewhere? If they choose to do so for whatever reason, I would posit they are not lazy and there are other reasons for not conforming to Japanese cultural norms.
 

LogicStep

Member
How can they despise sexual contact, like seriously? Do they not like orgasms? They just rather pleasure themselves I'm guessing?
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Is this how you got your username? This is one of the most pretentious posts I've read. None of those things have to be attributed to laziness, and doing so is a huge nonsensical assumption. Why would someone lazy live a difficult life in a culture they don't understand instead of moving elsewhere? If they choose to do so for whatever reason, I would posit they are not lazy and there are other reasons for not conforming to Japanese cultural norms.

Because it's not a difficult life. It's actually, most likely, much easier than their current life in their native land would be. To the point that many people abandon their former lives and simply stay in Japan (or whichever country) because of how ridiculously easy it is. But the point was why do natives of Asian countries look down on immigrants, and my observation (which you can call expert if you like) is that it's because most immigrants simply come with a mentality that doesn't fit well to their surroundings, and their inability to adapt causes more tension.

And I wouldn't say it's pretentious, but I could see elitist.
 

Jb

Member
Well, this sure was a more interesting and hollistic look at Japan's declining birth rate and sexuality than Vice's shitty "Look at the weird/fucked up shit these guys are into, that's totally why they're all single and not having babies anymore" video.
 

Skinpop

Member
Well, this sure was a more interesting and hollistic look at Japan's declining birth rate and sexuality than Vice's shitty "Look at the weird/fucked up shit these guys are into, that's totally why they're all single and not having babies anymore" video.

I would agree with you if it weren't for the shoehorned anecdote of the robot loving guy. Shit like this is the reason most westerners has a crazy skewed idea of what japan is like. I don't think abnormal sexual interests are any more prevalent in japan than any other country, at least I haven't come across anything that would imply the opposite.

Many, even those who are genuinely interested in japan(but has never been there) have these misguided ideas that japanese work 12 hours a day, sleep in the parking lot, they watch lots of anime, the teenagers are immature, most japanese have abnormal sexual preferences, suicide is common, their women are weak, they can't drink alcohol and so on. None of them are accurate in representing something typically japanese, it's just a case of westerners being exposed to peculiarities presented as some kind of norms by our shitty western media outlets. These things are as uncommon as any odd peculiarities of our own.
 
I don't think a lack of Japanese porn is the problem here.

They do not know what to do because of the "little squares".

Aside of jokes, this paragraph sums things pretty well:
Yet conservative attitudes in the home and workplace persist. Japan's punishing corporate world makes it almost impossible for women to combine a career and family, while children are unaffordable unless both parents work. Cohabiting or unmarried parenthood is still unusual, dogged by bureaucratic disapproval.

There is no incentive to keep a classic relationship, let alone making kids.
 

Skinpop

Member
Because it's not a difficult life. It's actually, most likely, much easier than their current life in their native land would be. To the point that many people abandon their former lives and simply stay in Japan (or whichever country) because of how ridiculously easy it is. But the point was why do natives of Asian countries look down on immigrants, and my observation (which you can call expert if you like) is that it's because most immigrants simply come with a mentality that doesn't fit well to their surroundings, and their inability to adapt causes more tension.

I completely agree with you. The kind of westerners I've met in japan has almost exclusively been people who aren't very ambitions or interested in building a career for themselves. Not to brag, but I always find it baffling when I meet westerners who has lived there for twenty years but still speak far worse japanese than myself.

When I studied at a uni in japan, i purposely chose a uni with very few westerners and I did all the arrangements myself instead of using some kind of agency. I did so to avoid being put in some kind of group of westerners - my goal was to become a part of japan as best I could for the short while I was there.
I met several westerners who studied at a bigger more popular university and they would always ask me why I choose a uni with so few euros/americans. These guys mostly stuck with their group of same nationality guys and kept to their western ways instead of exploring this different culture. When spending time with them, the topics of conversation was always stuff they didn't like about japan and how so many things were different in a bad way, I honestly don't understand what anyone with that kind of mentality is doing in a foreign country.

As a westerner in japan people will be nice to you and treat you well. As a foreigner who speaks proper japanese(with all the keigo and stuff like that) and has made an effort to understand their culture you suddenly get a lot of respect. I wish more would push beyond just being able to get by with sloppy tomodachidoshi japanese and western clumsiness in culturally clashing situations. You gain so much by doing so, it's just that most people are oblivious about it since most japanese never will point out any mistakes you make so they fool themselves into believing they are doing well.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
Pretty simple logic that the more troublesome an activity becomes, the less likely a person will engage in it.

The gov't has a duty to make relationships, marriage and raising kids more seamless economically.


I've seen what you described down to the letter. I know a guy who went to Japan for a year and never left his closeted group of Euro/American friends to engage locally, which heavily stunted his experience.
 
sexuality-with-a-disability.jpg
 

mujun

Member
Because it's not a difficult life. It's actually, most likely, much easier than their current life in their native land would be. To the point that many people abandon their former lives and simply stay in Japan (or whichever country) because of how ridiculously easy it is. But the point was why do natives of Asian countries look down on immigrants, and my observation (which you can call expert if you like) is that it's because most immigrants simply come with a mentality that doesn't fit well to their surroundings, and their inability to adapt causes more tension.

And I wouldn't say it's pretentious, but I could see elitist.

Living in Japan is extremely difficult in some ways, super easy in others. In my experience of course.

Why is it hard? Due to the culture. Japanese education doesn't raise people who question things, people who ask "Why?" In turn Japanese people can't explain and have no clue as to why certain things are the way they are in their own country. This can make it hard for people raised in a different culture to live here. You can speak the language, have a bunch of Japanese friends, go out of your way to assimilate and still feel like you don't get a bunch of stuff. Japanese people cope with this by just doing what they've been programmed to do and never thinking about the reason why.

Why is it easy? Well, as a foreigner you aren't expected to learn Japanese, assimilate completely or "get it" It makes for a very comfortable life but it can also cause you to feel isolated or frustrated either because you can't seem to get it or because even if you do you'll never be completely accepted to the same degree another Japanese person would. Not everyone will make you feel like this, of course. Not trying to stereotype but the majority will.

I love living here and I have no problem with the above. I am however not a fan of the way I am perpetually treated like a guest or a "foreigner". The best I can hope for is permanent residency (I'm sure I'll still get shafted if I ever get into a legal battle with a Japanese person no matter how right my position may be) but that won't stop every single clerk assuming I can't speak Japanese even after 5 minutes of them trying to communicate in busted English while I'm using clearly better Japanese.

I'm sure that even after I've been here for 20 or 30 years people will marvel at my ability to use chopsticks.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I completely agree with you. The kind of westerners I've met in japan has almost exclusively been people who aren't very ambitions or interested in building a career for themselves. Not to brag, but I always find it baffling when I meet westerners who has lived there for twenty years but still speak far worse japanese than myself.

When I studied at a uni in japan, i purposely chose a uni with very few westerners and I did all the arrangements myself instead of using some kind of agency. I did so to avoid being put in some kind of group of westerners - my goal was to become a part of japan as best I could for the short while I was there.
I met several westerners who studied at a bigger more popular university and they would always ask me why I choose a uni with so few euros/americans. These guys mostly stuck with their group of same nationality guys and kept to their western ways instead of exploring this different culture. When spending time with them, the topics of conversation was always stuff they didn't like about japan and how so many things were different in a bad way, I honestly don't understand what anyone with that kind of mentality is doing in a foreign country.

As a westerner in japan people will be nice to you and treat you well. As a foreigner who speaks proper japanese(with all the keigo and stuff like that) and has made an effort to understand their culture you suddenly get a lot of respect. I wish more would push beyond just being able to get by with sloppy tomodachidoshi japanese and western clumsiness in culturally clashing situations. You gain so much by doing so, it's just that most people are oblivious about it since most japanese never will point out any mistakes you make so they fool themselves into believing they are doing well.

People who know what I'm talking about..know what I'm talking about. People who have never actually lived, worked, and met other foreigners in Japan wouldn't know about the very strange situation there. Sometimes I think how do more foreigners not know about how easy it is to have a perfectly acceptable lifestyle without having any formal, professional training or even needing a decent level of native fluency, in some of the safest and most advanced countries in the world. Surely if they did even more would flock.
 

Tenks

Member
This thread is weird. For the most part half the arguments are "She just needs the right dick" which is an absurd argument when told to a lesbian I don't see how the absurdity doesn't still stand with this situation.
 

Wubby

Member
Well it's very true about the women in jobs situation. After moving here 5 years ago my wife couldn't get a full employee job anywhere. 'Are you married' and 'do you have kids?' they asked. No kids but none of the places would hire her. Also if you are a woman who's a bit overweight good luck. Pictures with resumes are required. Equal opportunity does not exist here.

As for high school kids, I have yet to meet one who has had sex or even an interest in it. Granted the kids that come to my school aren't your typical rebel/bad kids (well past elementary school anyway). But part of the problem is they don't even really have time to think about it. They start their day at 7a.m. or so and are in school till 7p.m. if they are in a club like most are. School/clubs on Saturday and Sunday too with free time being devoted to homework or having to go to cram schools. Every holiday they have they get loaded up with a mountain of homework and if you are in a club you still have to go M-S for your club.

So glad I didn't have to go to school in Japan. Interest in women? Hell I wouldn't have an interest in living.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Also if you are a woman who's a bit overweight good luck. Pictures with resumes are required. Equal opportunity does not exist here.

Lol..this is not true nor why pictures are attached to resumes. You should know that.. though maybe not.. so I'll stop here.
 

Skinpop

Member
People who know what I'm talking about..know what I'm talking about. People who have never actually lived, worked, and met other foreigners in Japan wouldn't know about the very strange situation there. Sometimes I think how do more foreigners not know about how easy it is to have a perfectly acceptable lifestyle without having any formal, professional training or even needing a decent level of native fluency, in some of the safest and most advanced countries in the world. Surely if they did even more would flock.

Most people don't even want to live outside their own country, even fewer would be able to adapt to a completely different culture and learn a new language even if only to the level of these westerners in japan we are talking about. Even fewer still could stomach working as an english teacher in a japanese school for their entire life. Unless you are a passionate teacher working at a proper school with the same amount of peer respect as any other teacher it's a fucking horrible job :), i did it part time while studying and I hated it.
 

Row

Banned
Because it's not a difficult life. It's actually, most likely, much easier than their current life in their native land would be. To the point that many people abandon their former lives and simply stay in Japan (or whichever country) because of how ridiculously easy it is. But the point was why do natives of Asian countries look down on immigrants, and my observation (which you can call expert if you like) is that it's because most immigrants simply come with a mentality that doesn't fit well to their surroundings, and their inability to adapt causes more tension.

And I wouldn't say it's pretentious, but I could see elitist.

Natives look down on immigrants because they see them as lower class an inferior, and by immigranrs mean those that make up 99% of immigrants: other asians, not the small handful of westerners that don't impact anything
 

Wubby

Member
Lol..this is not true nor why pictures are attached to resumes. You should know that.. though maybe not.. so I'll stop here.

? It's what I've seen. Please enlighten me on what I should know.

At my school I've been in on the hiring process and have seen my schools owner weed out applications by the picture alone.
 

Irminsul

Member
I'm sure that even after I've been here for 20 or 30 years people will marvel at my ability to use chopsticks.
Well, speaking more about general behaviour and not necessarily about the chopstick example: How should they know you've been living there for a long time? Without further knowledge, the only thing people see is a foreign looking person. Most foreign looking people do certain things a certain way or can't do other certain things. You may say that's applying stereotypes, but if they're true in most cases, well, what should one do better?

The language example is quite good: When I was in Norway, I wanted to apply my knowledge of the language, but many people responded to me in English even though I started the conversation in Norwegian. My response was to ask them to speak Norwegian because I was trying to improve my language skills, and they all did. Simple as that. I really didn't think less of them just because they were trying to help me.
 

Vinci

Danish
Sounds like it has less to do with an aversion to intimacy/sex/relationships and more to do with messed up social norms & attitudes when it comes to gender roles and Japanese work culture.

Dead on. Saw that when I was there, the treatment of women in the workplace.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
Well, speaking more about general behaviour and not necessarily about the chopstick example: How should they know you've been living there for a long time? Without further knowledge, the only thing people see is a foreign looking person. Most foreign looking people do certain things a certain way or can't do other certain things. You may say that's applying stereotypes, but if they're true in most cases, well, what should one do better?

The language example is quite good: When I was in Norway, I wanted to apply my knowledge of the language, but many people responded to me in English even though I started the conversation in Norwegian. My response was to ask them to speak Norwegian because I was trying to improve my language skills, and they all did. Simple as that. I really didn't think less of them just because they were trying to help me.

Some people are looking for an enemy all the time as part of their nature. They want to believe they're being persecuted.
 
I searched for this, didn't find it, then spent some time off and on making an OP. Only to find I had been beaten. Anyway, here's my OP:



Japan is currently facing a social issue concerning their elderly. Specifically, Japan's older and retired communities are being ignored and often dying alone, without much care outside of the rudimentary.. This is caused by modern medicine and the stresses of modern Japanese life styles: Crowding, urban centralization, and stressful work environments.

This has been a problem of mainly the elderly, but now it has affected a whole new generation of Japanese....



What happens to a country when its young people stop having sex? Japan is finding out… Abigail Haworth investigates

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex

Japan's under-40s appear to be losing interest in conventional relationships. Millions aren't even dating, and increasing numbers can't be bothered with sex. For their government, "celibacy syndrome" is part of a looming national catastrophe. Japan already has one of the world's lowest birth rates. Its population of 126 million, which has been shrinking for the past decade, is projected to plunge a further one-third by 2060. Aoyama believes the country is experiencing "a flight from human intimacy" – and it's partly the government's fault.

A survey in 2011 found that 61% of unmarried men and 49% of women aged 18-34 were not in any kind of romantic relationship, a rise of almost 10% from five years earlier. Another study found that a third of people under 30 had never dated at all. (There are no figures for same-sex relationships.) Although there has long been a pragmatic separation of love and sex in Japan – a country mostly free of religious morals – sex fares no better. A survey earlier this year by the Japan Family Planning Association (JFPA) found that 45% of women aged 16-24 "were not interested in or despised sexual contact". More than a quarter of men felt the same way.

"Both men and women say to me they don't see the point of love. They don't believe it can lead anywhere," says Aoyama. "Relationships have become too hard."

In spite of the article mentioning video games, anime, and otaku culture, these are symptoms and not the cause of the problem.

Japanese men have become less career-driven, and less solvent, as lifetime job security has waned. Japanese women have become more independent and ambitious. Yet conservative attitudes in the home and workplace persist. Japan's punishing corporate world makes it almost impossible for women to combine a career and family, while children are unaffordable unless both parents work. Cohabiting or unmarried parenthood is still unusual, dogged by bureaucratic disapproval.

...

Lacking long-term shared goals, many are turning to what she terms "Pot Noodle love" – easy or instant gratification, in the form of casual sex, short-term trysts and the usual technological suspects: online porn, virtual-reality "girlfriends", anime cartoons. Or else they're opting out altogether and replacing love and sex with other urban pastimes.


But it's not a problem just with Japan's youth. Stagnation and poor working environments are beginning to cause social unrest in the West. Americans in particular are showing similar habits and American women are not safe from the type of work place discrimination that is negatively influencing Japanese women.

Aversion to marriage and intimacy in modern life is not unique to Japan. Nor is growing preoccupation with digital technology. But what endless Japanese committees have failed to grasp when they stew over the country's procreation-shy youth is that, thanks to official shortsightedness, the decision to stay single often makes perfect sense. This is true for both sexes, but it's especially true for women. "Marriage is a woman's grave," goes an old Japanese saying that refers to wives being ignored in favour of mistresses. For Japanese women today, marriage is the grave of their hard-won careers.

Tomita says a woman's chances of promotion in Japan stop dead as soon as she marries. "The bosses assume you will get pregnant." Once a woman does have a child, she adds, the long, inflexible hours become unmanageable. "You have to resign. You end up being a housewife with no independent income. It's not an option for women like me.

Amid the recession and unsteady wages, men like Kishino feel that the pressure on them to be breadwinning economic warriors for a wife and family is unrealistic. They are rejecting the pursuit of both career and romantic success.

"It's too troublesome," says Kishino, when I ask why he's not interested in having a girlfriend. "I don't earn a huge salary to go on dates and I don't want the responsibility of a woman hoping it might lead to marriage."

A relevant quote from later in the article. Sound familiar?

Across urban Asia, Europe and America, people are marrying later or not at all, birth rates are falling, single-occupant households are on the rise and, in countries where economic recession is worst, young people are living at home. But demographer Nicholas Eberstadt argues that a distinctive set of factors is accelerating these trends in Japan. These factors include the lack of a religious authority that ordains marriage and family, the country's precarious earthquake-prone ecology that engenders feelings of futility, and the high cost of living and raising children.

Even Japan's social culture has unwittingly reinforced such anti social behavior.

Japan's cities are full of conveniences made for one, from stand-up noodle bars to capsule hotels to the ubiquitous konbini (convenience stores), with their shelves of individually wrapped rice balls and disposable underwear. These things originally evolved for salarymen on the go, but there are now female-only cafés, hotel floors and even the odd apartment block. And Japan's cities are extraordinarily crime-free.

She just doesn't want a relationship and casual sex is not a good option, she says, because "girls can't have flings without being judged". Although Japan is sexually permissive, the current fantasy ideal for women under 25 is impossibly cute and virginal. Double standards abound.





My take: Social and labor relations are having a hugely negative affect on Japan's culture.
 

Opiate

Member
I'd just like to point out that statistically, most industrialized countries are moving towards Japanese birth rates, rather than Japan moving towards them. Japan is the extreme end of the spectrum, but a significant number of developed nations are near the break even point or are already marginally depopulating.

This does not mean that Japan doesn't have its own unique quirks. But it does mean that even absent those quirks we'd reasonably expect Japan to have a low birthrate relative to historical standards or modern day standards in third world countries.
 

mujun

Member
Well, speaking more about general behaviour and not necessarily about the chopstick example: How should they know you've been living there for a long time? Without further knowledge, the only thing people see is a foreign looking person. Most foreign looking people do certain things a certain way or can't do other certain things. You may say that's applying stereotypes, but if they're true in most cases, well, what should one do better?

The language example is quite good: When I was in Norway, I wanted to apply my knowledge of the language, but many people responded to me in English even though I started the conversation in Norwegian. My response was to ask them to speak Norwegian because I was trying to improve my language skills, and they all did. Simple as that. I really didn't think less of them just because they were trying to help me.

I don't know, allow for the fact that maybe I have been living here for 13 years rather than assuming based on my appearance that I just got off the plane. I think most would agree that it's better to enter a situation like that without any preconceived notions. Makes it easier to avoid causing offense.

I also never said that I think less of Japanese people because of the situations I described. They are a product of their education system and nothing more. I would like to see the education system change and become more progressive but they are undoubtedly products of their education system which is neither inherently good nor bad.
 
I'd just like to point out that statistically, most industrialized countries are moving towards Japanese birth rates, rather than Japan moving towards them. Japan is the extreme end of the spectrum, but a significant number of developed nations are near the break even point or are already marginally depopulating.

This does not mean that Japan doesn't have its own unique quirks. But it does mean that even absent those quirks we'd reasonably expect Japan to have a low birthrate relative to historical standards or modern day standards in third world countries.

Right. The article addresses this as well. Japan's unique make up has had a more drastic influence on the problem it seems.
 

Zoe

Member
So if they get pregnant, they just end up getting married?

Dekichatta kekkon, shotgun weddings

It's so cliche among celebrities that female celebrities have to reassure everyone that they're not pregnant when they get married under normal terms.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Setting aside the group of people that hates anything different than them, which all countries have, the Japanese do not hate immigrants. They hate lazy immigrants. Most Asian cultures require a lot more effort and learning than simply knowing the language or knowing that you bow. There's a different way of doing things in almost every daily circumstance (literally, even down to how you pay for shit at a conbini), and a lot of the foreigners I came across in my years there are just too fuckin lazy to ever try to learn or adapt. And it's not even about becoming some weeaboo otaku Davido-kun expert of Japanese culture, it's about humbling yourself a bit a to try and learn and conform to a lifestyle that is more than likely much different than your own.

There's a reason why a great deal of foreigners (who are not actually trained in education) fall into English teaching jobs in Japan, or why after years and years you'll still find foreigners who can barely speak Japanese or know how to transfer ownership of a car or know what color tie to wear to what occasion - it's because they're lazy and choose the easiest way of living there. A lot of people used to counter that the barrier of entry is impossibly high for foreigners for anything but some sort of teaching job, but I always asked those people just how much they applied themselves in terms of not just the language but the culture. Not surprisingly, it was always very little. Sorry, off topic.

See stuff like this is why I'm wondering if immigration would even help the problem all that much. What happens if they let in a bunch of immigrants, but don't adjust their work culture and those immigrants can't adapt?

I completely agree with you. The kind of westerners I've met in japan has almost exclusively been people who aren't very ambitions or interested in building a career for themselves. Not to brag, but I always find it baffling when I meet westerners who has lived there for twenty years but still speak far worse japanese than myself.

When I studied at a uni in japan, i purposely chose a uni with very few westerners and I did all the arrangements myself instead of using some kind of agency. I did so to avoid being put in some kind of group of westerners - my goal was to become a part of japan as best I could for the short while I was there.
I met several westerners who studied at a bigger more popular university and they would always ask me why I choose a uni with so few euros/americans. These guys mostly stuck with their group of same nationality guys and kept to their western ways instead of exploring this different culture. When spending time with them, the topics of conversation was always stuff they didn't like about japan and how so many things were different in a bad way, I honestly don't understand what anyone with that kind of mentality is doing in a foreign country.

As a westerner in japan people will be nice to you and treat you well. As a foreigner who speaks proper japanese(with all the keigo and stuff like that) and has made an effort to understand their culture you suddenly get a lot of respect. I wish more would push beyond just being able to get by with sloppy tomodachidoshi japanese and western clumsiness in culturally clashing situations. You gain so much by doing so, it's just that most people are oblivious about it since most japanese never will point out any mistakes you make so they fool themselves into believing they are doing well.

Sounds kind of like immigrants in the US if you ask me. So many of them either can't or won't learn English and just group together in their own little communities (which is why the US has no official language at the federal level). It's just that portions of some of those communities have been able to gradually meld into the national culture over the course of 50, 100, or 150 years.

Oh, condoms are pretty widely accessible but that's about it. There was no sexual revolution of women finding freedom through the pill. According to some of my friends, it's considered "romantic" not to use contraception anyway :/


They don't have religious pressures, but there are still a lot of societal factors. A lot of people (especially women) are still fairly conservative about sex, and like I said, there was no sexual revolution like we had in the west.

So basically, Japan never really had a women's rights movement.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
I have always found it pretty weird how US generally has better fertility rate than majority of European countries when in US the actual birth costs a lot of money, you have millions of people without any kind of health care, school beyond high schools costs a lot of money and at least as far as I have unterstood you really don't have too many parental benefits either.

The crux of the matter in terms of culture is religion. Places that are more religious have higher birthrates, as at least in Christianity (and probably the others) places a strong moral emphasis on having a family. Even non-religious people in a relatively religious culture still get affected by this.

If you don't have this cultural push, then for most people, from a purely selfish cost-benefit logical analysis, having a family does not make any sense at all.
 

JohnDoe

Banned
I'd just like to point out that statistically, most industrialized countries are moving towards Japanese birth rates, rather than Japan moving towards them. Japan is the extreme end of the spectrum, but a significant number of developed nations are near the break even point or are already marginally depopulating.

This does not mean that Japan doesn't have its own unique quirks. But it does mean that even absent those quirks we'd reasonably expect Japan to have a low birthrate relative to historical standards or modern day standards in third world countries.

Perfect example would be Switzerland:

swiss-demography-age-pyramid.gif


And this is 1990 compared to 2000.

But on the other hand, we are more sexually active than many countries that aren't depopulating at all.
 
Do we really need to rehash the stupid "lol I'll save Japan with my penis" jokes? It literally adds nothing to the discussion, doesn't address the article or the issue at hand, and has already been said 50+ times in this thread alone. If you're so desperate for some Japanese women go look up porn sites.

See stuff like this is why I'm wondering if immigration would even help the problem all that much. What happens if they let in a bunch of immigrants, but don't adjust their work culture and those immigrants can't adapt?

Well, a lot of the foreigners who live there are second and third gen immigrants from Korean families. They still hold their Korean citizenship (because you can only choose one or the other), but many of them have taken on Japanese names and live as any Japanese person would. There are a lot of obnoxious westerns there, and some obnoxious Asian immigrants too, but I get the impression that most of them have adapted alright, even if a lot of the time they get stuck in low end jobs.
 

Azulsky

Member
I'd just like to point out that statistically, most industrialized countries are moving towards Japanese birth rates, rather than Japan moving towards them. Japan is the extreme end of the spectrum, but a significant number of developed nations are near the break even point or are already marginally depopulating.

Absolutely, and the common factor is a work culture that erodes personal time with rising cost of living in developed countries. Japan is the guinea pig for this problem.

I think the French have the most amenable model as far as catering to family oriented workplace practices and paid vacation. They would be a good starting template at least.

The problem is that you have the logistical cause from the workplace feeding back into sexuality where now some members of the 2nd generation have a seemingly unrelated issue of sexual dysfunction all caused by loss of familial bonds.

Will be interesting to see if they fix it because once their boomer generation retires its gonna hit like a truck when the workplace is empty due it causing reproduction loss.

I also find it interesting that one of the parallels that can be drawn is the lack of religious pressure in Japan with eroding pressure in the West being tied into this mess.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Well, a lot of the foreigners who live there are second and third gen immigrants from Korean families. They still hold their Korean citizenship (because you can only choose one or the other), but many of them have taken on Japanese names and live as any Japanese person would. There are a lot of obnoxious westerns there, and some obnoxious Asian immigrants too, but I get the impression that most of them have adapted alright, even if a lot of the time they get stuck in low end jobs.

But what if that same work culture prevents them from having kids too? I'm not saying immigration wont' work, but it probably wouldn't work by itself.
 
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