Zepp Twofist
Member
It's the same in Might & Magic X if I recall correctly. I need to replay that one of these days.
Why can't I play without a map?
- Thread starter fresquito
- Start date
It's the same in Might & Magic X if I recall correctly. I need to replay that one of these days.
Tertullian
Member
Sometimes I think I would love an old-school-style game where I take notes on actual paper, have to write down directions to various places, etc. But then I remember that when I actually play games, I check the map every two seconds and hit the quest arrow button obsessively. And I remember that one time I tried to play an Etrian Odyssey game and boy, fuck drawing my own maps.
I'm instantly turned off games, role playing or otherwise that use a combination of gps + quest markers and some detective vision derivative to drive gameplay, fuck that shit.
I'm pretty sure I've already read something like that itt
I'm pretty sure I've already read something like that itt
The Elder Scrolls: Arena did this for the most part, only marking it when you're already very close.
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"I think it's a long way east of here"
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"I think it's a south of here"
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"I think it's a bit west of here"
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"It's right near here. Let me mark it on your map"
Holy hell, it was tedious. Very, very tedious. I can't underline that enough.
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"I think it's a long way east of here"
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"I think it's a south of here"
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"I think it's a bit west of here"
"Where's the Orc and Cavern Tavern?"
"It's right near here. Let me mark it on your map"
Holy hell, it was tedious. Very, very tedious. I can't underline that enough.
I think drawing your own maps is a step too far. I think the game should definitely still include a map. I mean what adventurer would be roaming around some place without a map?
They don't have to remove the option, though. It's more about designing the games to be playable without pointers, and then giving the option for people who want/need help to navigate rather than designing them to be played with pointers, and offering an impractical choice to play without them.
If you design your game to be played without a mini map with arrows, and then add a mini map with arrows for people who want it, for them, it'll be the exact same thing. Get the quest, follow the dotted line, finish the quest. But for people who don't want to use it, they have a quest designed entirely around being perfectly possible and intuitive to complete without following the dotted line.
That being said, it's much easier said than done, especially for massive open world games. You just need very tight and handcrafted level design in order for mental maps to work as they do in smaller games like Souls games. But there might be an interesting middle ground to reach.
Mark Brown elaborates on this aspect better than I could ever hope to:
How would that work exactly? Trying to decipher somebody's directions in real life is hard enough. You want every NPC to point you in the right direction instead? What if you meet up with a random side quest that takes you in another direction, wouldn't the first one be lost to memory? "Turn left at the first house" the first house you see sell weapons and may not be considered a house by developers but you make the turn.
Being frustrated I can't find the next story quest because of bad directions is a level of immersion I don't need.
Being frustrated I can't find the next story quest because of bad directions is a level of immersion I don't need.
AFAIK, the basic problem is:
- your game has 20 locations.
- your game has 20 peasants.
In the best case, that's 400 conversations that need writing, voice-work, QA... (and translating/recording/qa into every language the game supports).
Then imagine those 20 peasants can wander around the map (or are procedurally moved from one place to another).
It's just rather impractical unless/until we are able to generate voices procedurally (in multiple languages with some degree of emotion support).
Personally, it still sounds really annoying - I'd prefer to use a map and 'grill' the peasants about the murder that happened last night..
Portugeezer
Member
My problem with the map is that it's not very good in TW3, so you end up looking at it longer than you would like.
That's why in real life they invented street names and house numbering.
Though it'd be hard to implement in something like Witcher 3.
In Shenmue it worked great though (with family names outside the houses)! For GTA it'd be perfectly doable, for example.
Triggerhappytel
Member
I wouldn't really want a ball of light guiding me to my destination. I'd rather have a marked direction on a compass. One of my favourite things about open world games is going to a destination but getting distracted along the way by interesting stuff. I'm playing Kingdoms of Amalur at the moment and this keeps happening to me.
Wasn't one of the Fables which also had a glittery trail that you could follow to your destination? Didn't like it there much either.
JimboJones
Member
You could turn it off in Fable I think but I really liked it, you could get distracted with other stuff but then when you decided you wanted to advance the story it was really easy to get back into it.
Alpha Phoenix
Member
I tried playing Witcher 3 with the HUD completely turned off once.
It did not go well.
It did not go well.
I understand people who don't like this feature, but for me it's super usefull - when im taking longer break it's easier to get back into the game without confusion... best example - bloodborne/dark souls games. I have to start over after not playing for 2-3 weeks since i have no clue where i was already
GHG
Gold Member
Yep. This along with the games being designed around fast travel are killing the appeal of open world games for me.
The quest giving NPC should be able to give specific enough directions for you to be able to find it without relying on a map or a marker of some sort.
Something like "it's in a town 5km east of here. You'll need to go through the marshes, the gate is gold and the primary guards name is Toven. You can ask him for further directions if you get lost in the town but the house Is blue and white and is to the left of the village hall" would be sufficient for most players to find the place you need to go and it also give you an indication on where you should seek help should you need it.
This would also greatly contribute towards world building and the sense of a living breathing place. But instead all you get is the NPC saying "my mum needs help, she's at home" and then BANG, as if by magic a marker appears on your HUD, minimap, and as if that wasn't enough, your world map as well. It's pathetic.
The quest giving NPC should be able to give specific enough directions for you to be able to find it without relying on a map or a marker of some sort.
Something like "it's in a town 5km east of here. You'll need to go through the marshes, the gate is gold and the primary guards name is Toven. You can ask him for further directions if you get lost in the town but the house Is blue and white and is to the left of the village hall" would be sufficient for most players to find the place you need to go and it also give you an indication on where you should seek help should you need it.
This would also greatly contribute towards world building and the sense of a living breathing place. But instead all you get is the NPC saying "my mum needs help, she's at home" and then BANG, as if by magic a marker appears on your HUD, minimap, and as if that wasn't enough, your world map as well. It's pathetic.
Kssio_Aug
Member
Yeah. I liked Fallout 4 but the sense of exploration of the world is totally killed by these stuff... Talk to NPC marked on the map, he will tell you to do mission in the place marked on your map, first travel on foot, do the marked mission, come back to the marked NPC using fast travel. They have a big world to explore, but little to none reasons to do it after reaching that location once.
Also, the dots and the compass / minimap, pointing everywhere, also kills that feeling of danger or curiosity of traveling the world. You know you just need to follow that direction till you reach the dot, and you won't get lost.
I believe most games nowadays are masked as open world, but in their core theyre just as linear as a games designed in "corridors", but with more BS on the way such as those infinity collectables Ubisoft put in their games.
I would love a game where the NPC gives you actual directions (ex. "head northeast past the cliffs") and a description of the location, and when you get to the local area you can ask the NPCs in town for more specific directions. Or if you get lost you can ask knowledgeable NPCs like traders and shopkeepers anywhere in the world to point you in the right direction.
crazygambit
Member
Birgitte2004
Member
Your idea is fine, until it's the last thing you hear before logging out and being unable to play for a week.
And I ask, why is it a bad thing to imagine that you held your map up to the NPC and he pointed at it? Why is this so immersion-breaking? Part of me can't help but think of the grumpy-old-man syndrome. "Back in my day we got lost every 10 minutes and we liked it that way!"
I bought GTA 3 (The PS2 version recently rereleased on PS4) and it is just incredibly difficult to play now. No in game map, just a tiny minimap in the corner which doesnt show you much. No directions given or any help as to where your going, which street to take etc. I remember the game came with a huge map on the PS2 which i put on the wall, and that was all you had. It wasnt until Vice City that the in game full map appeared.
silvermember
Banned
I feel like this describe most of the people who want a no map feature. I mean if a dev wants to cater to those types and not make money they can.
I don't have the Patience to over complicate a process of enjoying the game.
You do realize that maps are real? Like whenever you talk to someone they could be marking down your destination on a map? I don't think that's something that needs to be done on camera.
Ah, beaten.
Stiler
Member
I hate it, and I wish more games in general would build the worlds with the sense of exploration and discovery that older games used to put into it. Actually make the world have "landmarks" and make quest/storylines that actually give you directions to follow and how to find things without saying "ok I'll mark it on your map."
It's not just a problem for open world rpgs either, it's ruined FPS games for me too, especially MP games.
I used to looooooove playing online fps games back in the day, like Day of Defeat, etc.
Then along comes the mini-map and "Radar" and everything that came with it. No more was positioning or anything part of gameplay, it ended up becoming more focused on quick fast paced action and constantly looking at tihe little circle map/radar instead of watching your screen, scanning your enviornment and actually LISTENING with your bloody ears to find people, even in games where it makes no sense (IE WWII) it's shoved in.
It's not just a problem for open world rpgs either, it's ruined FPS games for me too, especially MP games.
I used to looooooove playing online fps games back in the day, like Day of Defeat, etc.
Then along comes the mini-map and "Radar" and everything that came with it. No more was positioning or anything part of gameplay, it ended up becoming more focused on quick fast paced action and constantly looking at tihe little circle map/radar instead of watching your screen, scanning your enviornment and actually LISTENING with your bloody ears to find people, even in games where it makes no sense (IE WWII) it's shoved in.
dripdripsplash
Member
I completely agree with you OP.
I turned off the quest marker, always on HUD and the minimap when playing Witcher 3. It makes a huge, huge difference, you can actually immerse yourself in the wonderful world that the developers have created instead of losing focus with the UI.
It also meant that I had to check the world map alot and remember which routes to go, but I enjoyed it immensely nonetheless.
Witcher 4 with NPC's telling you the exact direction to places, with no markers and no minimap would be crazy.
It would have to be created from the start with that in mind though, I can imagine alot of problems arising from it. And maybe modern gamers would lash back at such a radical thought.
I turned off the quest marker, always on HUD and the minimap when playing Witcher 3. It makes a huge, huge difference, you can actually immerse yourself in the wonderful world that the developers have created instead of losing focus with the UI.
It also meant that I had to check the world map alot and remember which routes to go, but I enjoyed it immensely nonetheless.
Witcher 4 with NPC's telling you the exact direction to places, with no markers and no minimap would be crazy.
It would have to be created from the start with that in mind though, I can imagine alot of problems arising from it. And maybe modern gamers would lash back at such a radical thought.
It's actually a very important part that is easily overlooked.
Heck in Xenoblade, you only get the direction for the story quest and otherwise if you can see the quest object/foe it's on your map JUST as you see it. (or close enough).
That way you had to soak into the world to finish quests and everything and it was one big reason why I loved the game so much.
Heck it's how you should play Metroid game too.
In good Metroid games you disable the hints and you just explore and try to find how to progress by exploring the gameworld.
Another reason why Other M is such a shitty non Metroid game, it gave you a fucking GPS with your next objective AT ALL TIME.
Even in a non open world game it's better to just remove the map and try to explore the game that way you're not tied to the small map showing you the way to go.
Heck Souls games would be shitty with a freaking map showing you were to go at all times.
The fact that games these days don't even compensate for the lack of ingame map is pretty much immersion killing for me, how the hell am I supposed to believe that I'm not playing a game when there's nothing to point a lost character in the game world where he would be interested to go or even the closest town?
Heck in Xenoblade, you only get the direction for the story quest and otherwise if you can see the quest object/foe it's on your map JUST as you see it. (or close enough).
That way you had to soak into the world to finish quests and everything and it was one big reason why I loved the game so much.
Heck it's how you should play Metroid game too.
In good Metroid games you disable the hints and you just explore and try to find how to progress by exploring the gameworld.
Another reason why Other M is such a shitty non Metroid game, it gave you a fucking GPS with your next objective AT ALL TIME.
Even in a non open world game it's better to just remove the map and try to explore the game that way you're not tied to the small map showing you the way to go.
Heck Souls games would be shitty with a freaking map showing you were to go at all times.
The fact that games these days don't even compensate for the lack of ingame map is pretty much immersion killing for me, how the hell am I supposed to believe that I'm not playing a game when there's nothing to point a lost character in the game world where he would be interested to go or even the closest town?
SenorPopOff
Banned
In a game like GTA seems like a system like that would be taking us back in time since our real life GPS pretty much does what the game is doing. Plus who wants to try and look at street signs when driving around the map at 100mph? Instead of looking at the current gps map you would continuosly be pausing the game to look at a virtual paper map and counting streets.
And for the fantasy games, if I had a map and someone was telling me where to go. Why wouldn't he simply mark the location on my map instead of telling me something like go three miles east then turn north and head 2 miles down past a creek. Do I not want anyone marking my map?
So the basic problem is voice acting
THANK YOU!
I always thought the people that told us to turn off the map completely ignored the fact that quest dialogue in TW3 only very rarely contains directional information. Much more of that would be necessary to play this game without a map.
Instead, the quest designers seemed to have taken the dotted line to the quest marker for granted. It's really one of the most disappointing aspects of the game as I would love to turn off the map but it's just not feasible.
edit: As for the budget concerns: I totally would've preferred about half the number of quests but with better directional dialogue over what we have now. TW3 has great quest lines but there's all so much filler/fat that could've been trimmed and made it an even better game. While we're at it: make the world smaller but more dense with details as well. Quality > Quantity. The "bigger = better" fallacy in open-world games needs to be called out and end.
They are not silly at all. The map with the dotted line leading you directly to quest markers completely destroys any sense of discovery and satisfaction. Half of the time on your way to a quest marker, you're staring at the mini-map which inevitably hinders the immersion in the world presented to you as well.
Discovering places can be a lot of fun and very rewarding - IF the designers give you sufficient information and tools. I still remember the treasure hunts in Red Dead Redemptions with the drawn maps with landmarks on them etc. That kind of stuff and just more reliance of directional descriptions for quests would've benefitted TW3 greatly I think. At times I felt the game's flow became quite monotonous and needed to be broken up. You choose a quest, follow the dotted line, kill some guys, get the item and bring it back, cutscene. Rinse, repeat. Some actual navigation and discovery in between would've been great.
Crimson_1ce
Banned
I would like to say that this map business is certainly troubling for me. I always felt the need for a minimap in games. Always. However, what end sup happening is that is all I will see or remember. Which can really make me completely ignore all the potentially beautiful art in a game. Instead, I become arrow-man in map land. Seriously
Also...it kind of seeps into real life a bit. If I have to drive with a GPS, I find myself looking at it an awful lot. Like- obviously nothing has changed yet but I look repeatedly anyway- a lot.
Also...it kind of seeps into real life a bit. If I have to drive with a GPS, I find myself looking at it an awful lot. Like- obviously nothing has changed yet but I look repeatedly anyway- a lot.
I don't mind having maps, but I don't like how you are always 100% sure of your position on them. You never get lost in these games, because opening your map instantly tells you exactly where you are in relation to everything else. The only time you might fell a little disorientated is when visibility is reduced at night, or during a storm, but even then your map magically knows exactly where you are and which direction you are facing.
I'd prefer games that were designed around the player orientating themselves through landmarks rather than simply telling them exactly where they were at any one point in time. That way you could actually experience the sensation of feeling lost in a large open environment, which seems to be a selling point in vast open world games, but is something that is very rare in most games I've played recently.
I'd prefer games that were designed around the player orientating themselves through landmarks rather than simply telling them exactly where they were at any one point in time. That way you could actually experience the sensation of feeling lost in a large open environment, which seems to be a selling point in vast open world games, but is something that is very rare in most games I've played recently.
NullPointer
Member
Right there with you OP. Been playing a lot of games without any minimap lately and its amazing how much it changes things, and how noticeable it becomes that games are made for you to mindlessly follow icons on that mini-map. No wonder the repetition sinks in so quickly these days.
Assassin's Creed games are just flat out impossible without consulting the larger map. You're never given enough information to go on, eagle vision doesn't provide any hints to your next objective, and even place markers and database entries won't appear to help you learn landmarks unless you have most of the HUD elements on. Bonus points to Unity (and maybe Syndicate?) for having a minimalist UI option though. It helps with immersion, but the game still expects you to relentlessly follow that map. Its insane too, because AC games tend to be the easiest to find landmarks from the rooftops to get your bearings. Its been this way since the first AC.
The Witcher 3 is half good, half bad. I've actually been surprised at how often I do get relatively detailed information on where to go next through NPC chatter or other in-game sources and hints. But even then it can be hard to navigate the world since the lush foliage hides so many details and markers you could use as landmarks. So I do find myself consulting the full map pretty often - at least its only an up-swipe away on the Dualshock's touch pad.
The biggest disappointment for me was with Rise of the Tomb Raider. The game has tremendous exploration potential, and I loved learning my way through each environment without the mini-map trivializing everything into a "Simon says go here now, then go exactly here, and then exactly here. Look at you, you're exploring!".
The problem is this: I'd find some nook and cranny way off the beaten path, usually a knapsack that are placed in areas that are entirely easy to miss. So whats the reward you get for exploring the area well enough to find these well hidden sacks? It reveals more treasure markers on the mini-map. So for a player like me making my way without that mini-map, the rewards for an exploration based playstyle are HUD icons that exist purely to trivialize exploration. I honestly don't get the point.
And of course, the king of the roost here is Bloodborne, and I'm guessing the other souls games as well. No mini-map, no world map. Just observation, risk-taking and exploration providing just rewards. Its a good part of the reason the game clicks for me. But being lost is part of the deal.
Edit: I think the solution for several of these games is to put in-game markers. Like Assassin's Creed has eagles circling over the sync points, and pigeons gathered on bird-poo encrusted rooftops to show you where you can leap into hay below, there are ways to use poetic license while helping to communicate the state of the game and the world without numbers and bars overlaying otherwise intricately created and evocative worlds. I that can't work, put some visual marker into whatever "detective mode/survivor vision/witcher senses" the game has. Something optional and subtle to light the way forward, if needed.
Assassin's Creed games are just flat out impossible without consulting the larger map. You're never given enough information to go on, eagle vision doesn't provide any hints to your next objective, and even place markers and database entries won't appear to help you learn landmarks unless you have most of the HUD elements on. Bonus points to Unity (and maybe Syndicate?) for having a minimalist UI option though. It helps with immersion, but the game still expects you to relentlessly follow that map. Its insane too, because AC games tend to be the easiest to find landmarks from the rooftops to get your bearings. Its been this way since the first AC.
The Witcher 3 is half good, half bad. I've actually been surprised at how often I do get relatively detailed information on where to go next through NPC chatter or other in-game sources and hints. But even then it can be hard to navigate the world since the lush foliage hides so many details and markers you could use as landmarks. So I do find myself consulting the full map pretty often - at least its only an up-swipe away on the Dualshock's touch pad.
The biggest disappointment for me was with Rise of the Tomb Raider. The game has tremendous exploration potential, and I loved learning my way through each environment without the mini-map trivializing everything into a "Simon says go here now, then go exactly here, and then exactly here. Look at you, you're exploring!".
The problem is this: I'd find some nook and cranny way off the beaten path, usually a knapsack that are placed in areas that are entirely easy to miss. So whats the reward you get for exploring the area well enough to find these well hidden sacks? It reveals more treasure markers on the mini-map. So for a player like me making my way without that mini-map, the rewards for an exploration based playstyle are HUD icons that exist purely to trivialize exploration. I honestly don't get the point.
And of course, the king of the roost here is Bloodborne, and I'm guessing the other souls games as well. No mini-map, no world map. Just observation, risk-taking and exploration providing just rewards. Its a good part of the reason the game clicks for me. But being lost is part of the deal.
Edit: I think the solution for several of these games is to put in-game markers. Like Assassin's Creed has eagles circling over the sync points, and pigeons gathered on bird-poo encrusted rooftops to show you where you can leap into hay below, there are ways to use poetic license while helping to communicate the state of the game and the world without numbers and bars overlaying otherwise intricately created and evocative worlds. I that can't work, put some visual marker into whatever "detective mode/survivor vision/witcher senses" the game has. Something optional and subtle to light the way forward, if needed.
Absolutely.
Mystic_Wanderer
Member
hardly any of you touched on this.
you're in the minority of the minority. thats why.
you're in the minority of the minority. thats why.
This is far from the best case scenario, tbh, but I see where you're coming from.
The best case scenario is that you have player knowledge of major points of interest (so you can 'mark' those on a map automatically), and have NPCs actually mark up your map when they gave you quests pointing to major locations ("I've marked the hill on your map."). When looking for individuals or (non-major) locations in towns, get directions and ensure that the in-game structures/textures/whatever can help you find whatever the hell you're looking for.
For example, let's say you have four quests. Quest A requires that you investigate Giant's Peak, a major landmark, and was a radiant quest picked up from overhearing a conversation. Quest B requires that you find Vinnier's Tannery. Quest C requires that you find Cedric the Unreliable. Quest D has you searching for bandits, but you're not sure where they are and are looking for clues from the populace. Quest E has you looking for the Eye of the Valley, a major landmark, but you were given it directly..
You go up to an NPC. As part of their dialogue script, the game iterates through all of your active quests and checks if you have any quests where you could want/need loction info. It gives a menu entry with an option that says "I need help finding something". You pick that option. Your player says that line to the NPC, and you get a submenu based on the available quests. Build some random/variable strings that accept parameters as values and fill them in based on variables. With the four above quests, you could get the following four options, for example.
* "I need help finding Giant's Peak."
* "I'm looking for Vinnier's Tannery. I'm not familiar "
* "I'm trying to locate Cedric the Unreliable. Do you know where I can find them?"
* "I'm looking for some bandits that have been causing trouble around here. Any ideas?"
* Quest E has no dialogue option because, as a major landmark and being given to you directly, it's already marked on your map.
Quest A results in an NPC giving you a generic line of dialogue ("no problem, let me mark it on your map") and adding a map marker.
Quest B results in an NPC giving you a generic line of dialogue ("you can find it over there"), getting the x,y coordinates of the Tannery (which should be quest vars, probably), and pointing in that direction. If you have a more localized map, they can mark it on there too.
Quest C results in an NPC giving you a generic line of dialogue ("you can find him hanging around somewhere over there"), getting the current x,y coordinates of Cedric, and pointing in that direction.
Quest D results in an NPC giving you a generic line of dialogue ("no problem, let me mark it on your map") and adding a map marker - maybe not where exactly where they are, but if they're "known" (to the NPC) to be active around a certain area, that area could be marked on the map.
Of course, you can get more or less specific depending on whether or not voice is involved, the nature of the setting, the knowledge of the NPC, the knowledge of the player character, etc., but there's no need to record unique dialogue for every quest target or quest location. You can expand stuff like the "where is this nearby thing" options by having an NPC point in the direction and giving you a 'trail' to follow in 3D space, perhaps only to the next 'major' intersection, but it would certainly be more 'immersive' than instantly knowing.
I can appreciate that some may find it annoying and prefer compass indicators and maps with super-precise waypoints, but some people may prefer a more immersive experience. Watching a compass is equally annoying to me, especially when it's imprecise - I used movetoqt an awful lot in Skyrim after a while.