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[belgurdo]

Just something that crossed my mind right now...

Basically, isn't the whole point of the genre to provide the player with an long and involved story, usually at the expense of complex gameplay so that players can focus on the plot easier? I read topics on forums both here and abroad about the subject and it always seems that people that say this want something more along the lines of an action game with a start-of-game fill in backstory. I say, why buy the damn things if you're literally going to run past half of the total package? Barring that line of thinking, given that many games nowadays give the player conventions to let them skip the story at their leisure (pounding the advance button, pause menu skip, turning off voices, etc.) one would think this complaint would die off but it still persists...

 

[sprsk]

because even though rpgs are about playing a character in a story (wtf this describes almost every game genre) a game is still a game, and gameplay comes first.

 

[Zilch]

I play RPGs for the tedious turn-based combat. Screw your "stories".

 

[belgurdo]

because even though rpgs are about playing a character in a story (wtf this describes almost every game genre) a game is still a game, and gameplay comes first.

But usually in an RPG the "gameplay" is basically 20 hours of "pick things from a list and crunch numbers after the enemy dies!" so why would one anticipate that more than the plot?

 

[Wario64]

probably because most rpg cutscenes are boring as hell, at least to me. which is why i don't venture off in the RPG genre much these days. and also because i feel like my time is being wasted watching often pointless cutscenes. and even if it does allow you to skip cutscenes, most people will watch em anyway just so they can follow the story, whether it's crappy or not.

something like breath of fire dragon quarter is perfect for me. mostly filled with gameplay with some pretty short cutscenes in between

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

Basically, isn't the whole point of the genre to provide the player with an long and involved story, usually at the expense of complex gameplay so that players can focus on the plot easier?

That's the point of a certain subset of the genre.

 

[sprsk]

But usually in an RPG the "gameplay" is basically 20 hours of "pick things from a list and crunch numbers after the enemy dies!" so why would one anticipate that more than the plot?

i have no idea.

Some games, even though they have the basic menu setup, have interesting strategies and gameplay systems.

 

[demi]

i welcome cutscenes, it's like a trophy for having to wade through hours of mindless battles and commands

but so long as they aren't xenosaga caliber and don't take up the entire fucking game.

 

[MoxManiac]

My main complaint is stuff like Xenogears, which is not only crap in writing, but makes you sit through 5 hours of boring drivel at a slowwwwwwwwwwwwww text scroll rate. But to be honest, most RPGs I play for the gameplay side of things. Dragon Quarter, Grandia Xtreme, DDS/SMT3, etc all offer compelling gameplay experiences to me. To that end, it's why i've avoid others completely, like the Xenosaga games.

 

[xsarien]

It's not so much the inability to skip, it's the inability to skip if you've seen them already. God knows the litany of complaints I have about FFX include "having to watch [x] cut scene as many times as I died.

 

[Demigod Mac]

Thing about Xenosaga is....

You WANTED to a have a long-ass cutscene to relax to after trudging through a hard-as-balls dungeon.

 

[Open Source]

Why would I want to read a bunch of meaningless dialog written by goober game designers who fancy themselves writers? I can barely stand "good" fantasy books as it is.

It's even worse in Japanese games, because 1) Cultural differences in storytelling style 2) stuff lost in translation and 3) Japanese game story writers are even worse at their jobs that their American counterparts.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

But usually in an RPG the "gameplay" is basically 20 hours of "pick things from a list and crunch numbers after the enemy dies!" so why would one anticipate that more than the plot?

You've just described the gameplay of every single video game ever made (well, the crunching numbers part is optional), not just RPGs.

 

[Nerevar]

But usually in an RPG the "gameplay" is basically 20 hours of "pick things from a list and crunch numbers after the enemy dies!" so why would one anticipate that more than the plot?

Wow, you just perfectly described why the JPRG is such a black hole of a gameplay experience.

It's like a MMORPG treadmill, except you do it alone instead of with other, real people. How sad.

 

[Red Scarlet]

I've never played RPG's for stories, why would I start now.

And cutscenes/FMV's are pointless after the first viewing.

Some people do like the battles/exploration.

Speaking of, just finished FF3. Too many parts are a pain in the ass in that game (Cave of Darkness, last place..go 2+ hrs without being able to leave/save). But I won. w000000

 

[Zilch]

Wow, you just perfectly described why the JPRG is such a black hole of a gameplay experience.

It's like a MMORPG treadmill, except you do it alone instead of with other, real people. How sad.

Oh brother. You can't just write off a whole genre (sub-genre) like that.

 

[gamergirly]

I think some of the cutscenes in Xenosaga I and Star Ocean 3 were huge but good. It really depended on the time as far as whether I thought they were annoying or not.

If you had time to kill and wasnt really doing anything, then a 15 minute cutscene(or mini movie :lol ) is pretty entertaining but if you are headed out of the door and all of a sudden you realize you have been sitting through 5 minutes and the joker still hasnt ended, then it can be irritating. Plus, you have to cut the game off and rewatch it when you come back....

 

[WordAssassin]

Opening cutscenes are what piss me off. I've tried to play Kingdom Hearts twice...the first time, I was like, "Ok, this is kinda cool...when do I get to play?" I got to the part whee you're trying to find Goofy? and then had to quit. About year later I went and tried to play it again, and the whole opening cinima was really, really aggravating. I'd seen it already, I just wanted to fucking play the damn game. That time I didn't even get off the island because the opening cutscene took up so much time I had to leave before I even got anywhere.

Cutscenes in RPGs should be optional. you can watch them if you want to know the plot or haven't seen them or they give off some clue, but if you've seen them already, you should be able to skip them.

 

[Red Scarlet]

Would've been nice if they threw that into rereleases of FF10, but since it's in X-2, hopefully it is gonna be in 12. Xenosaga 2 lets you skip, I've seen. Hopefully it'll catch on!

 

[StoOgE]

I like to skip if I have seen it allready but just died.. but, I want it to be harder to skip than one button.. maybe a combo of two buttons? because there have been times in games where I accidentally skipped stuff.

 

[Red Scarlet]

I don't know what it is in Xenosaga 2, but in FFX2 you had to pause, then hit the square button.

 

[WordAssassin]

Yeah, dying and having to watch a cutscene again fucking SUCKS. Conker's BFD let you, if you'd watched a scene already, press L button to skip it. That was nice.

Paper Mario's last boss battle has like three LONG cutscenes in it. I still haven't beaten it because I'll get her down to like 20 HP, die, and then do I want to sit through all that shit again? Hell no, goodbye for a while Paper Mario.

 

[demi]

Paper Mario TTYD was horrible for that, I did die a couple times to that final boss...you really lose interest when you do, gotta sit it out and try it again after a day.

 

[Finaika]

Thing about Xenosaga is....

You WANTED to a have a long-ass cutscene to relax to after trudging through a hard-as-balls dungeon.

Agreed.

 

[Monk]

There are two kinds of RPG gamers. One play for the story, the other play for the gameplay. I am of the latter, there was a time almost every RPG was innovative when it came to gameplay, now not so much. And as such we are a dying breed.

You wont have to put up with our complaints in 10 years time, we will have moved onto the pc. I am almost strictly a pc gamer now. Hell "Evil Islands" on the pc was more innovative than the entire ps2 library of RPG's. To me thats sad.

 

[Scott]

I am of the latter, there was a time almost every RPG was innovative when it came to gameplay, now not so much.

There was never any such time.

You wont have to put up with our complaints in 10 years time, we will have moved onto the pc.

Considering how scarce PC RPGs are already getting, ...10 years from now, I'm not quite sure what you believe you'll be playing.

EDIT: And I'm curious about this "Evil Islands" comparison. More innovative than the entire library of PS2 RPGs? How many games is that now, 60+? I'll be very surprised if you can even claim that you've played them all...

 

[Speevy]

I don't mind cutscenes. I also like Bioware's RPG's. Never played any other non-Eastern ones except for Morrowind, which I also enjoyed. What I don't like is the overblown stuff you find in the Final Fantasy games.

 

[Monk]

FF4-FF6 had many innovation, Chrono trigger had many, Secret of Evermore, Secret of Mana, Paladins Quest had a unique system(you used your life points instead of MP to cast spells).


Now its Gothic 3, Kult, D&D online seems to be ignoring other MMO's and doing its own thing, Seal of Evil, Mistmare. RPG's on the pc are coming harder to find but they are there.

 

[Scott]

FF4-FF6 had many innovation, Chrono trigger had many, Secret of Evermore, Secret of Mana, Paladins Quest had a unique system(you used your life points instead of MP to cast spells).

Ok? Just going by that generation (Genesis & SNES), that's 7 RPGs that were apparently innovative out of around, what, 50 or so? Almost every RPG indeed...

 

[Triumph]

I don't mind cutscenes. I also like Bioware's RPG's. Never played any other non-Eastern ones except for Morrowind, which I also enjoyed. What I don't like is the overblown stuff you find in the Final Fantasy games.

Yeah, well, you don't have a PS2. And also, Bioware's games feature actual gameplay and intelligent writing. Both of which have been sorely lacking from non SRPGs and games not named Dragon Quarter this gen(Japanophiles FUCK OFF and break it off in yer arse).

 

[Scott]

(Japanophiles FUCK OFF and break it off in yer arse).

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read all day. Kudos.

 

[Odnetnin]

depends on whether or not its skippable. I mean 1st time through, you'd like to watch it but not again and again. I know what the guys mean about Paper Mario TYD though. I only died once but it drove me insane. (But then I was HIGHLY UNIMPRESSED with PMTYD so I wasn't too patient with it... END, GODDAMNIT!)

I don't mind RPG cutscenes. I also didn't mind the cutscens in MGS2.

 

[Monk]

And I'm curious about this "Evil Islands" comparison. More innovative than the entire library of PS2 RPGs? How many games is that now, 60+? I'll be very surprised if you can even claim that you've played them all...

I have played roughly 10 or so RPG's on the PS2

Shadow Hearts 1/2
Suikoden 4
BoFV
FF X
Arc the Lad twiliht of the spirits
Champions of Norrath
Dark alliance 1&2
X-men(DA clone)
Legaia 2
Star Ocean 3
Phantom Brave
Castlevania LoI

I am not going to bother explaining whay it was unique, the combat system was unique, the magic system was unique, the buying system was unique, travelling was more of the stealthy kind.

... I will just leave this review handle the rest:

http://www.allrpg.com/games/evilislands/index.php3?page=review&num=1

 

[Alex]

I don't play the heavy cut scene games, well, in severe moderation. I pick and choose so it never winds up bothering me.

I do think, on another note though, that the JRPG bashing is entirely silly. Not everyone plays the genre for any one thing in particular. Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Level-5, Enix & it's satellites, etc; have all done a spectacular job of releasing entirely game play focused RPGs in the states.

whether you choose to ignore them for the absolute slop that makes the media do cartwheels is your own gig. I like Western RPG's as well, but from a purely game play vantage point, I'd easily find things like Dragon Quarter, Dark Cloud 2, Grandia X, Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga, etc champion above the Bioware and Bethesda releases.

Especailly for this generation, it hasn't been since Baldurs Gate 2 that Bioware had a great playing RPG on shelves.

 

[Odnetnin]

Yeah, well, you don't have a PS2. And also, Bioware's games feature actual gameplay and intelligent writing. Both of which have been sorely lacking from non SRPGs and games not named Dragon Quarter this gen(Japanophiles FUCK OFF and break it off in yer arse).

JRPG are genre onto themselves. There's a format to the story telling. Don't like it? Don't play it or whinge.

another quality post. Even since the GAF hack incident and your *request* + suck up attempts to mods in the hope of being modded.. I can't take your seriosuly. And most of your posts are vulgar for the sake of being vulgar.

pathetic

BLAH BLAH BLAH

You Nintendo apoligistic wank boys can cry me a river. You're FANBOYS OF A FUCKING VIDEO GAME COMPANY. You have EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT INTO THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF NINTENDO. That's right. A company that can't decide if it wants to compete with or revolutionize the industry(supposedly). In the meantime, they're content to take your money, put it in the bank and put forth shadows of the kind of effort they used to exert.

If it makes any of you feel any better, I'll be buying my 3rd Gamecube later this year(or whenever) for Zelda. But I'll make sure I get it secondhand, so Nintendo doesn't get any more precious profit than necessary out of me.

Oh, kudos to the guy who called me out on being a socialist and suggesting second class citizen treatment for Nintendo on the forums. HE'S smart. civilstrife is just another Nintendo taint licker.

you know that's a line Drinky uses. Glad to see you repeat it verbatim. and :lol @ taint licker.

 

[Monk]

Ok? Just going by that generation (Genesis & SNES), that's 7 RPGs that were apparently innovative out of around, what, 50 or so? Almost every RPG indeed...

Fine, Uncharted Waters 1&2, Treasure Hunter G, Monstania, Illisian of gaia, Soul Blazer, Terranigma. I just couldn't be bothered writing them all. I did exxagerate, but most of the RPG's back then had lame stories and relied on their uniqueness to sell itself.

 

[Speevy]

also, Bioware's games feature actual gameplay and intelligent writing.

Well, I'm obviously in no place to debate for either side, but the "Japanophile" stuff is ridicuolous. If you've played a great Western RPG and a great Eastern RPG, you know what's good about each.

 

[Scott]

I have played roughly 10 or so RPG's on the PS2

Well, can't say I was really interested in that game. I was more just questioning how you can claim this single game is more innovative than the entire PS2's library of RPGs. And well, going by this "10 or so" statement, ...you really can't.

Fine, Uncharted Waters 1&2, Treasure Hunter G, Monstania, Illisian of gaia, Soul Blazer, Terranigma. I just couldn't be bothered writing them all. I did exxagerate, but most of the RPG's back then had lame stories and relied on their uniqueness to sell itself.

Well, "innovative" is apparently a very loose term for you, for one. Another thing, for every "innovative" RPG back then, there were a bunch of clones lined up right behind it... just like this gen, and last, and so on...

So not quite seeing your point here, if you had one.

 

[Triumph]

Jeez. Wow. I've offended taste lacking Nintendo fans, who also like gameplay lacking rpgs like Xenosaga and FFX-2. How will I live?

Fact is, Drinky and I are different commodities. We happen to share similar ideas regarding some things, but I actually like the xbox better than the ps2 this gen. So we're not the same person, nor am I a carbon copy. I'm sure you don't know how to process this information, and won't be able to sleep properly tonight because of it.

Also, if you think there was any shot of me being modded, you're dumber than me at my drunkest.

 

[Monk]

@_@ So basically you have your mind set and anything i say is wrong. Gotcha.

 

[Triumph]

Well, I'm obviously in no place to debate for either side, but the "Japanophile" stuff is ridicuolous. If you've played a great Western RPG and a great Eastern RPG, you know what's good about each.

Yes speevy, I have. The problem is, that the only decent Eastern RPG(at least from my standpoint) this gen was Dragon Quarter. Everything else was derivative and lame. Western RPGs made giant strides in comparison. Thus the casual and admittedly blanket insult to those that mindlessly defend Eastern games as inherently superior. I live for nothing else if not to insult yesboys.

 

[Odnetnin]

Yes speevy, I have. The problem is, that the only decent Eastern RPG(at least from my standpoint) this gen was Dragon Quarter. Everything else was derivative and lame. Western RPGs made giant strides in comparison. Thus the casual and admittedly blanket insult to those that mindlessly defend Eastern games as inherently superior. I live for nothing else if not to insult yesboys.

like i said. pfft :lol

 

[Monk]

Of the list of 34 here:

http://ps2.ign.com/reviews/?constra...sort=game+title&constraint.grid.sortorder=asc


I have played 16:

Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
Deus Ex: The Conspiracy
Final Fantasy X
Grandia II
Jade Cocoon 2
King's Field: The Ancient City
Legaia 2: Duel Saga
Mega Man X: Command Mission
Shadow Hearts
Shadow Hearts: Covenant
Suikoden IV
Summoner 2
The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age
Wild ARMs 3
Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land





And I can't make a judgement based on that?

 

[TheDiave]

Well, in the case of a tough final battle you can't beat on the first few tries, having to watch the same drawn-out cut-scene over and over, with no way to skip to the battle, does get really irritating. That's why I'm close to putting down an RPG I'm working on right now.

 

[Scott]

@_@ So basically you have your mind set and anything i say is wrong. Gotcha.

Not at all. It's just that most of what you've said in this thread has consisted of baseless claims, and I felt like calling you on it.

And I can't make a judgement based on that?

Limiting it to just turn-based now?

And no, not if your claims have to do with the entire RPG library on the system. I mean, c'mon.


And to be honest, I'm just kind of lacking in patience when it comes to these discussions anymore. I'm getting tired of baseless claims, ignorant opinions, throw-away posters like Raoul Duke pretending they know what they're talking about, the "East vs West" arguments, and every other annoyance that makes up damn near every RPG thread on GAF. It's just completely fucking sad that I can't read most of these threads after they've hit half a page in length, without feeling dumber for it. It's getting really, really old, and it's about time the idiots shut the fuck up already.

Not saying that applies to you, though, just ranting.

 

[Red Scarlet]

Diave: What are you playing?

I disagree with the 'never a time for innovations', but the best references I can think about were a long time ago (80's/very early 90's) that come to mind right offhand.

Early examples in relation to their predecessors would be:

FF2: No experience points for levelling up stats, except weapons/spells which didn't use points in that same sense.

FF3: Changable, defined jobs at any time.

Ultima 4: Talking parser instead of set things people say, mixing reagents for spells, no bosses (Ultima 3 had no bosses either, though).

Dragon Quest 4: AI for party members, chapter setup for game progression.

FF4: ATB instead of pure turn-based.

I'm sure there's a bazillion more, but those popped out while thinking about it, and from my experiences, those were firsts.

 

[TheDiave]

Diave: What are you playing?

Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I perfer the RPG's of yesteryear. Stories were still conveyed well. I was majorly heated with the summons in FF7 taking over a minute at times. Fights were way too fuckin long. Plus the random shit pissed me off too.

 

[WordAssassin]

Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.

Baaaaahahahaha!

I'm thinking about picking it up and finishing it right now.... it's just SO God damn annoying to get the last boss down to like 10-20 HP, die, and have to sit through two cuscenes, a battle, another cutscene, and the final battle.

And you can't like, rush through the cutscenes either. You have to keep pressing A to advance the text bubbles. ARRRRRGH!

 

[Monk]

Not at all. It's just that most of what you've said in this thread has consisted of baseless claims, and I felt like calling you on it.Limiting it to just turn-based now?

I just made it do a search on RPG's on the ps2, and thats what I got. I figure I have played roughly half of the rpgs on the ps2 if I go by this ratio. I have played much more rpg's on the ps2 than I previously thought.

Can I say that of the RPG's I played that "Evil Islands" is more innovative than all of them combined? It's what I should have said in the first place anyway.