Visualante
Member
brain_stew said:
It also wants me to install Microsoft Silverlight to view the home page of GFW market place now :lol
Why does GFWL "suck" and how can it be improved?
- Thread starter brain_stew
- Start date
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It also wants me to install Microsoft Silverlight to view the home page of GFW market place now :lol
brain_stew
Member
derFeef said:
It was a complete clusterfuck to start with, I think that's where a lot of the bad blood comes from. The Club was simply broken for many gamers because of the buggy client, the multiplayer portion of Kane & Lynch simply did not work at all and even Halo 2 would crash on W7 because of the GFWL client going haywire. All that and they were charging a fee for the full service, yeah, not the greatest of launches to say the least but then even Steam was a mess to begin with.
the nightman cometh
Member
The biggest problem is perception, a majority of PC gamers aren't enamored with Microsoft as a company and love Valve. Couple that with the fact that they are comfortable with Steam now and GFWL has one heck of an uphill battle ahead of them.
brain_stew
Member
Visualante said:
It also wants me to install Microsoft Silverlight to view the home page of GFW market place now :lol
Well I agree, that is really stupid. As someone that has an Xbox and has picked up cheap points cards, its nice to have the option but for it to be the only option is completely stupid. They saw sense with full releases so hopefully they can be convinced to see sense for DLC purchases as well. I'll be sure to bring the point up.
Diablohead said:Activation limits have to go, they don't stop piracy at all and are just annoying on the users end, some games seem to be fine though such as Dirt 2 which registers a key to your gamertag, like an online pass otherwise you are limited to offline play. It's the older games which have that annoying install limit because you give your key every time you install it even on the same computer.
Turning the marketplace program into something better, right now it's just a shitty store with no pc accessible friends list unless you play a game, might as well make that program a website since it's just a boring marketplace as it is.
Faster patch process, like consoles if someone needs to patch a game quickly they have a 2+ week wait while microsoft test it themselves, it's stupid because the bugs still get through even on the 360.
I like using gfwl as it's connected to my 360 profile, all my achievements and friends in one place, I do use steam quite often but I am only on that for pc chatting and the sales
You can use cash also, it's optional. The allards are shared between pc and 360 so if you ever end up with a few spare you can use them where you like, zune store not included because I live in the UK.
DoW II patches through Steam, which is nice. I have no idea if MS needs to cert the patch though.
Interfectum
Member
- MS certification needs to go
- MS needs to realize that Valve is top dog in the PC arena and understand why they are
- MS needs to stop trying to shoehorn their console ideas onto the PC platform
- MS needs to realize that Valve is top dog in the PC arena and understand why they are
- MS needs to stop trying to shoehorn their console ideas onto the PC platform
brain_stew
Member
the nightman cometh said:
If they'd have started this renewed focus a couple of years ago things could have been so different. I personally don't believe its too little too late like others but things would have been so much easier if it didn't take so long for them to "see sense" so to speak. They couldn't have picked a worse time to neglect the platform as Valve has been on fire all throughout that period and are very close to hitting critical mass.
I have to agree that a lot of the hatred stems from Microsoft treating the PC like a second class platform.
While the thing as a whole is pretty unsalvagable, there are a few things they can do to at least get a userbase.
1.) GFWL feels like it was designed to be used with a gamepad on a TV. Make an entirely new interface that's optimized for a mouse, keyboard, and monitor that can be used instead.
2.) They need to put their biggest games on the platform and release them day and date with the console versions. If GFWL is included in day and date releases of Halo: Reach, Gears of War 3, and Fable 3, there will be a whole lot of people using it so they can play those games.
3.) Sell games through Steam. Stop worrying about the GFWL shop and just focus on the GFWL service.
4.) Continue PC efforts like Age of Empires Online and Microsoft Flight. These are a solid step in right direction. Microsoft isn't afraid of putting out tons of games designed around consoles, especially with Kinect, so they shouldn't be afraid of putting out a healthy number of PC focused games.
While the thing as a whole is pretty unsalvagable, there are a few things they can do to at least get a userbase.
1.) GFWL feels like it was designed to be used with a gamepad on a TV. Make an entirely new interface that's optimized for a mouse, keyboard, and monitor that can be used instead.
2.) They need to put their biggest games on the platform and release them day and date with the console versions. If GFWL is included in day and date releases of Halo: Reach, Gears of War 3, and Fable 3, there will be a whole lot of people using it so they can play those games.
3.) Sell games through Steam. Stop worrying about the GFWL shop and just focus on the GFWL service.
4.) Continue PC efforts like Age of Empires Online and Microsoft Flight. These are a solid step in right direction. Microsoft isn't afraid of putting out tons of games designed around consoles, especially with Kinect, so they shouldn't be afraid of putting out a healthy number of PC focused games.
I think part of the problem is that it's not 100% clear what Microsoft is trying to accomplish with GFWL. What does it offer consumers (and developers) over a lighter weight, more polished, and better supported service like Steamworks? Are they even really trying to compete with Steam? If so, what features set it apart, and if not what are they doing to happily co-exist?
I've really enjoyed GFWL in my single player PC games - it's nice to get LIVE achievements and interact with my friends while they play on their 360's. I'm actually happy that this thread was made - it gives me hope that GFWL will evolve into something more worthwhile.
I've really enjoyed GFWL in my single player PC games - it's nice to get LIVE achievements and interact with my friends while they play on their 360's. I'm actually happy that this thread was made - it gives me hope that GFWL will evolve into something more worthwhile.
Stumpokapow said:
QFT. I think brain_stew understandably wants to keep it civil, but in a discussion on GFWL one cannot separate the company from the product. Part of the problem with GFWL is indeed the fact that it's from Microsoft.
My experience with GFWL is limited to Fallout 3 GOTY and finding out how to deactive and ignore GFWL, so I can't really help you there. I was very happy when I found out I could run FO3 without ever creating a gamertag or logging into GFWL. You lose out on achievements, but you can go from desktop to gameworld within 10-15 seconds; I know what I prefer.
I refuse to use GFWL based on the myriad of issues others have already mentioned, but there's another reason: I'm not sure I even want GFWL to improve.
I think I would much rather prefer GFWL to disappear completely from the PC scene. Given the example of the X-Box 360 and its associated closed nature, its gimped networking, its nickel-and-diming and its limited international support, why would we want to have a similar system from a company that appears to be downright hostile to the principles of PC gaming? Do we really want for Microsoft to control yet another PC standard?
My suggestion? Microsoft should spin-off GFWL (perhaps keep its 360 connectivity exclusive to it for those who want it), but publish their own games (what's left of them) on all DD services. Let's see Microsoft act like a normal gaming publisher/developer, rather than using gaming as a means to an end. Let's see GFWL try to compete with other DD services on an equal playing field, without being a Trojan Horse.
Here is another suggestion: Unify Live purchases!
I bought Fallout 3 and every single piece of DLC on 360 since I didn't have as good of a PC at the time. Went to the GFWL client to check out if I could grab the Fallout 3 dlc on the PC and I could not. It was offered to me again for 800 points per dlc package. No dice. Thankfully the GOTY edition hit but what a joke.
I bought Fallout 3 and every single piece of DLC on 360 since I didn't have as good of a PC at the time. Went to the GFWL client to check out if I could grab the Fallout 3 dlc on the PC and I could not. It was offered to me again for 800 points per dlc package. No dice. Thankfully the GOTY edition hit but what a joke.
scarybore
Member
I don't have any real hate for GFWL, my main issue is with its DRM and the general lack of knowledge about it. I have no idea if the game is linked to my gamertag or if it has a certain amount of installations, in that case I don't even know how many installations I have left. I simply hate the very real possibility of having to pick up a damn phone just to play a game.
Barring that, my problems relate to specific games bought on steam. The Club which refuses to update so I have no online functions, and Red Faction Guerilla that again wouldn't update but was fixed eventually. To be fair I don't know if those problems were due to a developer error or if it is a problem with GFWL itself.
I'll be surprised if it's still around in 2 years to be honest.
Barring that, my problems relate to specific games bought on steam. The Club which refuses to update so I have no online functions, and Red Faction Guerilla that again wouldn't update but was fixed eventually. To be fair I don't know if those problems were due to a developer error or if it is a problem with GFWL itself.
I'll be surprised if it's still around in 2 years to be honest.
VibratingDonkey
Member
I used to hate GFWL, until I finally gave Occam's razor a shot and turned off my firewall. Still, I have to temporarily turn off my firewall to be able to sign in. Would be nice if I didn't have to do that.
And ditto about the save files. It should be an additional service offered on top of the game, not meddle with its functionality and make things more difficult.
And oh right, the client won't start on my PC any longer, but that might be because of something I did to get the in-game GFWL to work once upon a time. Haven't bothered trying to make it function again as it seemed absolutely pointless anyway.
And ditto about the save files. It should be an additional service offered on top of the game, not meddle with its functionality and make things more difficult.
And oh right, the client won't start on my PC any longer, but that might be because of something I did to get the in-game GFWL to work once upon a time. Haven't bothered trying to make it function again as it seemed absolutely pointless anyway.
I play games on Steam so I've no need for GFWL. When a game requires both, it's redundant and annoying since GFWL adds little (if any) functionality that Steam doesn't already provide. It's DRM of the worst kind, making gaming more difficult and less user-friendly.
Barring some serious improvements, I want to see it go away, too. They can't just match Steam's convenience at this point, they have to be even better. There have been dozens of good suggestions in this thread, least of which are abandoning all DRM with the exception of tying games to a single account, allowing cross-platform purchasing, and integrating XBLA into GFWL. If I could play and purchase all my XBLA games through the PC, I would be thrilled. Ecstatic even.
Barring some serious improvements, I want to see it go away, too. They can't just match Steam's convenience at this point, they have to be even better. There have been dozens of good suggestions in this thread, least of which are abandoning all DRM with the exception of tying games to a single account, allowing cross-platform purchasing, and integrating XBLA into GFWL. If I could play and purchase all my XBLA games through the PC, I would be thrilled. Ecstatic even.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
brain_stew said:
But "going away" doesn't mean "ceasing to exist", it means "ceasing to be relevant".
Wikipedia has about a dozen upcoming games. Setting aside MS published games, which are going to be GFW Live even if the service functionally ceases to exist, you're left with Codemasters (Dirt 3, F1 2010, OpFlashpoint: Red River), Capcom (Lost Planet 2, Dead Rising 2), and THQ (Homefront, Dawn of War II expansion). I'd be willing to bet that Homefront flips to Steamworks or at least drops GFWL before release, and Dawn of War already patches through Steam so it's pretty clear how the winds are blowing there.
Oh, and then there's BlazBlue, which is a one-off game being published more than a year late, after the sequel is released, only in Europe, and by Tradewest, a company that I thought didn't exist anymore. There are two upcoming indie titles, both published by Microsoft, one of which has been out on 360 for more than a year.
If by the end of 2011, it's just Microsoft releasing 3-4 games per year on GFWL, then we'll no longer be complaining about Microsoft as a poor platform steward, we'll be complaining about Microsoft as a poor publisher--the same way we would if EA forced an idiotic DD stack on top of its products.
Mrbob said:
Given that they couldn't secure cross-platform licensing for 25 year old games made by mostly bankrupt five times over companies without an extra fee being passed onto the user, I'm reasonably confident that this ain't gonna happen.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Microsoft has already lost. For many, having hundreds of games on Steam has caused a sweet sweet dedication to that platform which only by the jaws of life (Valve being sold to the devil/Kotick; Valve requiring a monthly fee to use Steam) would pull us away. Microsoft sat on its ass for far too long. This isn't like the OS war, browser, or even console business where you can truly jump in at half time and then win the game. Once people have hundreds of games purchased on a particular DD platform it will be EXTREMELY difficult for another company, let alone one that all but dismantled its PC business to pry those customers away. Even cheap prices wouldn't do it since many will just wait for the game on a Steam sale.
Interfectum
Member
Honestly as another poster said... instead of us explaining what we want out of GFWL, why doesn't MS tell us what they can bring to the table?
Before Steam and other DD services, one could see a need for GFWL, but I fail to see one now. And like Stump said, if the reasoning is "to give Valve competition" I'd much rather see a smaller, more innovative company come up with something, not MS.
Before Steam and other DD services, one could see a need for GFWL, but I fail to see one now. And like Stump said, if the reasoning is "to give Valve competition" I'd much rather see a smaller, more innovative company come up with something, not MS.
brain_stew
Member
Mrbob said:
At the very least they could offer a reduced rate, perhaps?
As another example, if I buy an 800 points XBLA game on the 360, why not give me the option of upgrading it to a dual PC/360 version for 200 points or so? I'm not going to buy that same game twice at full price but to ahve access to it on multiple platforms for a nominal fee? Yeah I might buy that. In an ideal world it'd work like SteamPlay but I'm a realist and I know there's too many split loyalties to make that a reality.
Leveraging their 360 userbase makes plenty of sense though. You've already got the achievements tie in but why not offer some other incentives? That's why it annoys me that I can't even message my Xbox friends through the dedicated client even though I have a Gold subscription ffs! Its ridiculous. If I'm used to using that client everyday then of course I'm more likely to check out the store on a regular basis. Valve totally get this.
brain_stew said:
Seems like typical MS fashion, once they feel threatened in an area of losing control then they decide to try and do something about it. I believe there are plenty of MS employees who care greatly about PC gaming, but are getting constantly beaten down by the corporate suits. Maybe those suits realized putting all their entertainment hopes into a box which has to reboot every five to ten years might not have been the best idea. Well congrats to them because in the mean time they have conceded a 25 million user base and growing for Steam.
brainstew said:
Not a fan of having to pay extra to access content I've purchased through Xbox Live on another platform. It would be one thing if I were buying this outside of Live, but I'm buying it within their market place.
I bought it under my Xbox Live account. I'm accessing my xbox live account on the PC. I don't think it should matter the platform I bought it on. If I bought it through Live I should have access to it. But that is just me.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
brain_stew said:
Even if Valve undercut Steam by 25% I don't see it making an impact. Why? Valve has basically scheduled huge sales for the holidays, Thanksgiving, and if we go by this year, Summer. That is 3x a year where one can wait and pay for a new game ATLEAST 33% below its normal pricing. Wait another 6 months or so and you will likely purchase it for 50% or lower. So you can pretty much wait 9 months or so and buy a game for half of what it originally cost. Patience pays off with Steam.
barkers crest
Member
I use GFWL for 1 reason and 1 reason only.
1. To build XNA games on PC.
Reasons why I don't use it otherwise.
1. I have an Xbox 360.
1. To build XNA games on PC.
Reasons why I don't use it otherwise.
1. I have an Xbox 360.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
If they want the store to be successful then they need to be willing to support it. We all know that Epic would be happy to release PC versions of GoW2 and Shadow Complex, but MS want them to remain on 360. MS hold back anything that drives sales of the 360, which is precisely (and redundantly) the software people want.
In fact we can be pretty confident that MS paid money (directly or indirectly) to keep games like Shadow Complex off their own GFWL service.
In fact we can be pretty confident that MS paid money (directly or indirectly) to keep games like Shadow Complex off their own GFWL service.
Microsoft's demand for control in the PC games space has only marginalized them there further. Their tying strategies in the OS market completely fall apart in the PC game market. Specifically, there's already DD services out there that are significantly better than GFWL and have more market share. You can't use games to tie people to GFWL when nobody wants GFWL to the point where they avoid the games that use it.
But they also can't tie people to GFWL when they don't even release their big gun games for it. Making Halo 3 or Gears of War 2 unavailable for PC isn't a great way to get people to buy a 360, it's a great way to be ignored by the PC populace, who then ignore GFWL further.
But they also can't tie people to GFWL when they don't even release their big gun games for it. Making Halo 3 or Gears of War 2 unavailable for PC isn't a great way to get people to buy a 360, it's a great way to be ignored by the PC populace, who then ignore GFWL further.
poppabk said:
This is one of my biggest complaints, how Microsoft will not support the PC properly. I would love to buy Gears 2, Halo 3/Reach, but on PC because I cant stand playing shooters on a controller.
It has its problems, but I wouldn't mind dealing with GFWL problems if MS offered games I actually wanted to play.
brain_stew
Member
barkers crest said:
How would you feel about the current client having an Xbox Live Indies marketplace? Your games built in XNA already pretty much run on the PC by default anyway, right? Would you not sell them on the PC if there was a similarly easy and low risk way to distribute them on the PC?
As far as I'm aware there's very few large scale outlets on the PC that offer an open marketplace like the Indies channel does and I it makes me wonder why Microsoft doesn't leverage their excellent XNA tools and stable of developers in order to fill this niche on the PC. I know Google are planning something similar but from what I can see its a market niche that still exists and so long as they make it a separate category in the client it doesn't have to swamp the main offerings like the Indies channel doesn't negatively impact the XBLA channel on the 360.
TheFightingFish
Member
For me, opening up community games for sale on the PC might be a pretty good step. XNA on the 360 is building up a pretty solid stable of indie games behind it and from my admittedly brief work with XNA programming most games could be ported over to PC versions pretty dang easily.
My thought is that this could be a smart move for Microsoft as a totally open indie submission section would at least give them something that Valve currently doesn't have with Steam. The current path of "just like Steam only with less selection, a more annoying UI, fewer sales" just isn't going to cut it, so why not branch out in a new direction a little bit.
edit: Heh, brain_stew snuck in right before me with essentially the same post.
My thought is that this could be a smart move for Microsoft as a totally open indie submission section would at least give them something that Valve currently doesn't have with Steam. The current path of "just like Steam only with less selection, a more annoying UI, fewer sales" just isn't going to cut it, so why not branch out in a new direction a little bit.
edit: Heh, brain_stew snuck in right before me with essentially the same post.
thehillissilent
Member
Zerokku said:
I think this brings up one of Microsoft's biggest problems as a whole. They are so divided as a company. Each division seems to have different initatives and they end up clashing with eachother.
On one hand the want to push sales for their Xbox platform by keeping it games, that would probably do well on pc, xbox exclusive. Of course they can also charge for online play on Xbox Live. However, the alienate pc gamers on their Windows platform with crap support and try to control them like they do on their Xbox platform, which makes pc gamers even more mad.
Overall, I think it's an issue with control. I feel like Microsoft wants to turn pc gaming into console gaming. I mean they would try to force pc gamers to pay for online play if they could.
Bottom line, Microsoft should support the pc more with games and not restrict big titles to Xbox. Also, they need to understand that pc is an open platform and respect that.
I don't have very much experience with GFWL. I messed around with it for maybe 15 minutes. It felt slow and the UI was a bit unintuitive.
Outside of this, I just don't trust Microsoft. I don't hate Microsoft or anything like that. It's just that I feel their business plan narrows down to "how can we exploit our customers to make the most money" where a company like Valve says "How can we make our service better and draw in more people to make more money". Then there's the whole XBOX exclusivity issue with games like Shadow Complex and Alan Wake.
Lets just pretend for a moment that Microsoft pulls this off and GFWL becomes a hit. Many people have invested themselves in the platform and have purchased quite a few games through it. What's stopping Microsoft from trying to implement a monthly/yearly fee again?
Outside of this, I just don't trust Microsoft. I don't hate Microsoft or anything like that. It's just that I feel their business plan narrows down to "how can we exploit our customers to make the most money" where a company like Valve says "How can we make our service better and draw in more people to make more money". Then there's the whole XBOX exclusivity issue with games like Shadow Complex and Alan Wake.
Lets just pretend for a moment that Microsoft pulls this off and GFWL becomes a hit. Many people have invested themselves in the platform and have purchased quite a few games through it. What's stopping Microsoft from trying to implement a monthly/yearly fee again?
barkers crest
Member
brain_stew said:
My games run pretty much the same on the PC as they do on the Xbox...so yeah, a similiar service on GFWL would be neat. The only concern would be supporting all of the different hardware configs.
I've got a build/share your own rpg game on the way soon that would be a good fit for the PC environment...if GFWL ever decided to support Avatars.
brain_stew
Member
poppabk said:
I can't disagree with this and how ridiculous it is. Any successful XBLA game that isn't tied to some exclusivity agreement will invariably end up on Steam, heck, evn the games that aren't successful are still getting ported to the PC platform. Its clearly profitable and would be even moreso for stuff like Shadow Complex and Halo 3, its just money left on the table.
At this point catalogue Xbox titles like Gears of War 2, Shadow Complex, Halo 3, Alan Wake, Forza 3 and Geo Wars 2 aren't going to convince anyone to pick up a $300 Xbox. They've had their chance at that and either succeeded or failed. They are titles that people still want to play though, and on their own hardware, and convincing someone to download a free client to get access to these games is a lot easier than convincing them to buy a $300 Xbox, a $50 Xbox Gold subscription as well as having to put up with a crappy framerate/resolution at the end of it.
So basically the point is, if these titles are no longer driving Xbox sales then why not use them to drive adoption of the GFWL client? You're actually guaranteed to make a decent stack of cash in the process as well so its win-win. No I don't expect a day and date PC release of Halo Reach but why can't Halo 3 be ported over at this point? I know I'd double dip.
Jay Shadow
Member
My general issue with GFWL is that it's designed just for selling you stuff. Unlike XBL and Steam which are designed for community connectivity, and then sell that community a ton of stuff. Their stand alone client has no community features at all. It's just a dlc selling machine. In game client doesn't support the voice message system, which has been around since the first xbox. It's kinda sad when someone on 360 sends me a party invite to hang out in chat and even though I have a mic and 20 voice capable programs, I can't join because I'm on GFWL.
Also I had an issue where Fallout 3 DLC wouldn't work unless I copied it from the gfwl directory and pasted it into Fallout's directory. Not everyone had that issue, but I was definitely not alone.
Other then that I haven't minded it in my other games at all. They just need to build up the community features so it's more on par with the XBL experience instead of coming across as half-assed.
footnote: I've never used it for multi-player, so I have no idea what that experience is like.
Also I had an issue where Fallout 3 DLC wouldn't work unless I copied it from the gfwl directory and pasted it into Fallout's directory. Not everyone had that issue, but I was definitely not alone.
Other then that I haven't minded it in my other games at all. They just need to build up the community features so it's more on par with the XBL experience instead of coming across as half-assed.
footnote: I've never used it for multi-player, so I have no idea what that experience is like.
lowlylowlycook
Member
Is there a single way in which GWL is better than Steam?
If not then that would be their problem right there.
If not then that would be their problem right there.
if someone somehow makes an argument about why i'd want gfwl, i'll gladly rebuttal it. as it is, this is one status quo i (and seemingly anyone who doesn't work in redmond - including an increasing number of devs) can live with. microsoft already own the os and api of choice for pc gaming, which has always left me a little uneasy.
at this point, if microsoft really want to gain favour in the world of pc gaming, the first thing they should be thinking about is bringing their catalog to steam. i'm just thankful i haven't been forced to make a leering little rape mascot avatar yet.
at this point, if microsoft really want to gain favour in the world of pc gaming, the first thing they should be thinking about is bringing their catalog to steam. i'm just thankful i haven't been forced to make a leering little rape mascot avatar yet.
snoopeasystreet
Member
Indie games marketplace.
brain_stew
Member
barkers crest said:
Cool, this is what I figured and unlike a lot of other suggestions its something which would bring the PC platform something it genuinely lacks. It gives GFWL a niche, a purpose and lets it stand on its own merits instead of as a poor substitute for Steam, which is what it basically is atm.
Obviously there's no end of indie games on the PC but finding them can be a pain and its often difficult for these developers to actually make any cash off these endeavours without getting screwed over by someone. Having an open central repository which allows indie developers to make some cash is an awesome idea, and the infrastructure is already basically inplace, the tools certainly are.
DodgyGeezerFella
Member
If i was still following the progress of GFWL like i was when it all started happening i could probably fill this thread with my thoughts on what would improve it (i bought the original titles that launched with it like Halo 2 and Shadowrun), but for awhile now ive just not cared, probably because Steam has been doing everything so right. Only problems ive had with GFWL were things like buggy clients around the release of Gears of War PC (would crash the game after 30 seconds, something like that) & running out of activations for a game. I do want GFWL to get better, i do like certain things it brings (same account on 360, chat to friends playing on console, as worthless as achievements are and the points, they can still be a bit of fun if done right, i also really like the little things like showing what a friends currently playing along with where in the game, what level there character is etc), but alot needs to change in my opinion for it to matter in the PC space, most of which has already been said in this thread but il repeat it anyway -
- Patching, certification for PC games needs to go away, it holds up crucial fixes, and probably stops some developers from bothering if they have to wait on MS to give it an all clear. Either remove cert or get it done in an incredibly shorter timespan.
- The UI, it made a massive leap from its original completely 360 style interface, that was good, but it still functions like the 360 in terms of messaging and friends browsing. Chatting with friends should be like an IM (like Steam !), its currently too slow and silly really. Inviting friends into games should be a 1 click affair, why not show friends on the main Guide when open and have a quick invite option on each friend on the list rather than having to click friends, then the friend, then click invite. The UI could also do with being a bit quicker when navigating.
- Save games, for the love of the god, remove the locks on these, and get developers to stop putting them in far away locations in funny folder names that need to be changed after a format. Microsoft put a Save Games folder in Vista and W7, make use of it ! Keep the saves in a well organised easy to access area and not in some locked state that if you format, you loose even if you backed them up.
- The store client, its made improvements definitely, still needs work though, still a bit of a jumbled cluster when browsing, and also looking through your own previous purchases is a bit basic, and the inability to back-up a downloaded game (why the hell does it wipe the install files once installed ?) is a bit criminal. Also, please show what each game on the store has DRM wise exactly.
- Activations, this seems to be fixed now, with the game linking to 1 account much like Steam, but why publishers continue to put other DRM on the games when this is already included seems a bit daft to me.
- Other countries, doesnt effect me personally as im in a Live region, but many others are cock-blocked out of playing the games they bought online because Live isnt available in there region, sucks massive arse to be them, sort it out ! (I think i read recently that a whole bunch of other countries, including Poland, will soon be Live enabled, so your getting there)
Pretty sure theres a bunch of other stuff but its not coming to me right now, i also think if Microsoft were to make good ports of Gears 2/3 and Halo 3/ODST/Reach youd get a damn sight more support from some PC gamers, you could even use them as examples of whatever GFW Live improvements you make (ive yet to see a GFWL game use the cloud feature you included, GFWL supports dedicated servers ? Put them in Gears 2/Halo 3 with all the community features as on consoles and watch the forums go nuts
). AoEO/Flight and Fable 3 are a great first step in showing PC intentions (same titles that made people think you had completely given up are now back). Forum buzz seems to suggest your doing something right with Age of Empires anyway 
Theres my jumbled clusterfuck of thoughts, hope its useful !
Edit - GFWL needs that killer game that shows just why it needs it. Starcraft 2 has that new Battle.net thing, Valves games make good use of the Steamworks features, but GFWL doesnt really have any games that show of what it does (mind you, i thought it worked nicely, for me at least, in Dawn of War 2). Age of Empires Online could be that game.
- Patching, certification for PC games needs to go away, it holds up crucial fixes, and probably stops some developers from bothering if they have to wait on MS to give it an all clear. Either remove cert or get it done in an incredibly shorter timespan.
- The UI, it made a massive leap from its original completely 360 style interface, that was good, but it still functions like the 360 in terms of messaging and friends browsing. Chatting with friends should be like an IM (like Steam !), its currently too slow and silly really. Inviting friends into games should be a 1 click affair, why not show friends on the main Guide when open and have a quick invite option on each friend on the list rather than having to click friends, then the friend, then click invite. The UI could also do with being a bit quicker when navigating.
- Save games, for the love of the god, remove the locks on these, and get developers to stop putting them in far away locations in funny folder names that need to be changed after a format. Microsoft put a Save Games folder in Vista and W7, make use of it ! Keep the saves in a well organised easy to access area and not in some locked state that if you format, you loose even if you backed them up.
- The store client, its made improvements definitely, still needs work though, still a bit of a jumbled cluster when browsing, and also looking through your own previous purchases is a bit basic, and the inability to back-up a downloaded game (why the hell does it wipe the install files once installed ?) is a bit criminal. Also, please show what each game on the store has DRM wise exactly.
- Activations, this seems to be fixed now, with the game linking to 1 account much like Steam, but why publishers continue to put other DRM on the games when this is already included seems a bit daft to me.
- Other countries, doesnt effect me personally as im in a Live region, but many others are cock-blocked out of playing the games they bought online because Live isnt available in there region, sucks massive arse to be them, sort it out ! (I think i read recently that a whole bunch of other countries, including Poland, will soon be Live enabled, so your getting there)
Pretty sure theres a bunch of other stuff but its not coming to me right now, i also think if Microsoft were to make good ports of Gears 2/3 and Halo 3/ODST/Reach youd get a damn sight more support from some PC gamers, you could even use them as examples of whatever GFW Live improvements you make (ive yet to see a GFWL game use the cloud feature you included, GFWL supports dedicated servers ? Put them in Gears 2/Halo 3 with all the community features as on consoles and watch the forums go nuts
). AoEO/Flight and Fable 3 are a great first step in showing PC intentions (same titles that made people think you had completely given up are now back). Forum buzz seems to suggest your doing something right with Age of Empires anyway Theres my jumbled clusterfuck of thoughts, hope its useful !
Edit - GFWL needs that killer game that shows just why it needs it. Starcraft 2 has that new Battle.net thing, Valves games make good use of the Steamworks features, but GFWL doesnt really have any games that show of what it does (mind you, i thought it worked nicely, for me at least, in Dawn of War 2). Age of Empires Online could be that game.
A less intrusive client would be nice...if like Impulse Reactor for example the look of the UI felt native to each game. Dunno if that's possible.
Cloud saves for all games, Paypal support, less bulky feeling out of game client, better support for headsets (a lot of people can't be heard unless they're practically on the mic...this is the case with my Logitech headset)...not an issue for me but I know a lot of people in other countries aren't supported and are quite upset about that. Definitely NO INSTALL LIMITS. And yeah, a transparent DRM policy in general, per game if necessary. I'd also prefer if it went more the Impulse route where the client was only required for installation, activation, and updates, etc. Make it easier to initiate text chat. Accessible client and game changelogs within the client.
Agree about making the offline option more clear. A lot of people dont know about this and hate GFWL only for this reason, or let it spoil the whole experience.
Cloud saves for all games, Paypal support, less bulky feeling out of game client, better support for headsets (a lot of people can't be heard unless they're practically on the mic...this is the case with my Logitech headset)...not an issue for me but I know a lot of people in other countries aren't supported and are quite upset about that. Definitely NO INSTALL LIMITS. And yeah, a transparent DRM policy in general, per game if necessary. I'd also prefer if it went more the Impulse route where the client was only required for installation, activation, and updates, etc. Make it easier to initiate text chat. Accessible client and game changelogs within the client.
Agree about making the offline option more clear. A lot of people dont know about this and hate GFWL only for this reason, or let it spoil the whole experience.
MirageDwarf
Member
Stumpokapow said:
May be these so called people at MS want to try to make GFWL relevant, but I'm sure you made them feel like there is absolutely no hope for them.
Pack up and find another job guys. It is fucking Microsoft after all.
barkers crest
Member
brain_stew said:
Keep in mind Steam is already starting to gain steam gathering up the good XNA games. ( Pun intended )
The guy that made this game has done pretty well on the Xbox marketplace but IIRC was floored by his sales on steam.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/49600/
SlipperySlope
Banned
GFWL does seem fragmented to me. Fallout 3's Broken Steel expansion is the only thing I've ever bought off of it.
I bought Fallout 3 from Steam. But the Downloads button in Fallout 3 wouldn't work unless you had a GFWL account. Kind of redundant, but I set one up. Then the whole booting me out of the game, downloading it, installing it, and booting the game back up again seemed unintuitive. Harkens back to the days of the old Windows update systems, where every update required a restart.
I later bought Arkham Asylum (from Steam also). But this game requires GFWL to play. It actually asked for my GFWL login information in order to play Arkham Asylum. Took me 10 minutes to remember what my username and password was.
My question here is why didn't GFWL remember my username and password automatically from when I created the account in Fallout 3? Instead of being wise and automatically logging me in, it stalled me so I couldn't play Arkham Asylum until I either remembered my login information, or created a new account. These systems shouldn't be slowing down user enjoyment of their games. They should be virtually seamless, hidden away in the background unless called upon.
And that's the only experiences I have with the system. I don't think I'll ever use it in replacement of Steam because it has organizational issues.
Probably should have been in Beta a little longer to iron out the user experience issues.
I bought Fallout 3 from Steam. But the Downloads button in Fallout 3 wouldn't work unless you had a GFWL account. Kind of redundant, but I set one up. Then the whole booting me out of the game, downloading it, installing it, and booting the game back up again seemed unintuitive. Harkens back to the days of the old Windows update systems, where every update required a restart.
I later bought Arkham Asylum (from Steam also). But this game requires GFWL to play. It actually asked for my GFWL login information in order to play Arkham Asylum. Took me 10 minutes to remember what my username and password was.
My question here is why didn't GFWL remember my username and password automatically from when I created the account in Fallout 3? Instead of being wise and automatically logging me in, it stalled me so I couldn't play Arkham Asylum until I either remembered my login information, or created a new account. These systems shouldn't be slowing down user enjoyment of their games. They should be virtually seamless, hidden away in the background unless called upon.
And that's the only experiences I have with the system. I don't think I'll ever use it in replacement of Steam because it has organizational issues.
Probably should have been in Beta a little longer to iron out the user experience issues.
jaundicejuice
Member
I think other posters have stated in greater detail and with far more eloquence about how Microsoft treats the PC like a second-class platform and it treats its customers like second class citizens than I could have.
That said, I think GFWL is a lost cause and Microsoft has no one to blame but themselves. They neglected the platform, they have shown where their interests lie with studio closures and what platform they have published their games for, they neglected their own service, developers are abandoning GFWL in greater numbers in favor of Steam each week it seems. At best Microsoft can only hope to make GFWL respectable but that won't happen unless there's a concerted two pronged effort that will last for years. They will have to drastically improve their service to address many of the issues people have mentioned here and provide great games to push and support that service.
I had to get Steam if I wanted to continue to play Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat back in the day, that was Steam's trojan. Half-life 2 was my first DD purchase, it took years of Valve steadily supporting and improving the service, and now Steam is my primary source for buying nearly all of PC games (although there's still the occasional brick n' mortar, physical media purchase, Starcraft II CE).
Why do I need Games For Windows Live, what's their equivalent to CS, DoD or HL2? What do they offer that other DD services don't? Right now, they're not offering a whole lot. In fact I go out of my way to avoid buying games that feature GFWL for the many reasons people have listed in this thread.
That said, I think GFWL is a lost cause and Microsoft has no one to blame but themselves. They neglected the platform, they have shown where their interests lie with studio closures and what platform they have published their games for, they neglected their own service, developers are abandoning GFWL in greater numbers in favor of Steam each week it seems. At best Microsoft can only hope to make GFWL respectable but that won't happen unless there's a concerted two pronged effort that will last for years. They will have to drastically improve their service to address many of the issues people have mentioned here and provide great games to push and support that service.
I had to get Steam if I wanted to continue to play Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat back in the day, that was Steam's trojan. Half-life 2 was my first DD purchase, it took years of Valve steadily supporting and improving the service, and now Steam is my primary source for buying nearly all of PC games (although there's still the occasional brick n' mortar, physical media purchase, Starcraft II CE).
Why do I need Games For Windows Live, what's their equivalent to CS, DoD or HL2? What do they offer that other DD services don't? Right now, they're not offering a whole lot. In fact I go out of my way to avoid buying games that feature GFWL for the many reasons people have listed in this thread.
MoFuzz
Member
I'm pretty sure they tried the the pay to play model in the beginning when the GFW service launched.thehillissilent said:
MS: Hai guyz, we're launching a super awesome new service with a friends system, achievements and voice chat, just like on the Xbox! You'll just have to pay a nominal fee for all of this, plus you get to play with your buddies!
PC Gamers: :lol
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