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[brain_stew]

Keep in mind Steam is already starting to gain steam gathering up the good XNA games. ( Pun intended )

The guy that made this game has done pretty well on the Xbox marketplace but IIRC was floored by his sales on steam.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/49600/

The problem with steam for indie developers is that its not open. Many great titles have been rejected and will continue to be and while there's that large barrier there (and I don't believe Valve will ever remove it) I think there's still a niche that needs filling.

Despite that this makes the lack of a service like this by Microsoft even more staggeringly ridiculous. Microsoft are providing him the tools to make the game and he's forced to go to the competition to get it distributed. XNA contributing to GFWL's own downfall? There's certainly an argument there while Microsoft don't offer any real alternative themselves.

 

[Curufinwe]

I never did get my final issue in the mail.

I subscribed (because of the Brodeo) just in time to get the final two issues.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The problem with steam for indie developers is that its not open. Many great titles have been rejected and will continue to be and while there's that large barrier there (and I don't believe Valve will ever remove it) I think there's still a niche that needs filling.

I'm not sure I particularly agree.

It's true that developers have been rejected by Steam, but as I said in another thread yesterday, I'm increasingly sure that most of the developers who were rejected despite producing quality games, were rejected primarily based on their pricepoint. Looking at stuff like Foreign Legion: Buckets of Blood, it's pretty clear that Valve is willing to take on low quality products provided that they're priced like low quality products. The also jives with the fact that when Eversion was accepted onto Steam, it was accepted in principle, then the author was asked to set a price which Valve would then accept or reject. Most of the rejections I've seen that would have even the slightest bit of a case had products that they wanted to price $19.99 or above. Since XNA currently has the $1/$3/$5 pricing requirement, it's not clear how many of those games would really be rejected.

Now, that being said, I do like the truly open nature of the Xbox Indies service, but how doesn't it already fill the niche that needs filling? All of the games would still be outputting 720p and be designed for the Xbox 360 controller, so there's not much benefit to having a PC port beyond the simplicity of having things all in one place or being able to sell to non-Xbox owners), and you don't get either with GFWL since the install base is significantly smaller and likely made up of mostly people who also use other PC services.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Personally, as a gamer who spends a lot of time on 360 as well as PC (and PS3, etc.) I really like the addition of achievements and my 360 friends list. I personally have not had any problems with GFWL other than the locked save games issue which is certainly annoying.

I think that for me, the positives are something worth saving and if they can fix the bugs, DRM, and the other issues it's well worth having.

I love Steam. I'd rather buy games from Steam. BUT, those who respond with "you can't beat Steam so you should just kill the product" are shortsighted. Competition benefits everybody in the long run. I'd rather them make GFWL a better service than simply leave the market to Steam.

 

[Wthermans]

Personally, as a gamer who spends a lot of time on 360 as well as PC (and PS3, etc.) I really like the addition of achievements and my 360 friends list. I personally have not had any problems with GFWL other than the locked save games issue which is certainly annoying.

I think that for me, the positives are something worth saving and if they can fix the bugs, DRM, and the other issues it's well worth having.

I love Steam. I'd rather buy games from Steam. BUT, those who respond with "you can't beat Steam so you should just kill the product" are shortsighted. Competition benefits everybody in the long run. I'd rather them make GFWL a better service than simply leave the market to Steam.

They can easily kill Steam if the give GFWL the same (and more) support that the 360 has received up to this point. I don't think MS has the balls to throw that much money rebuilding their PC platform though given the small audience they would receive out of it.

 

[TheFightingFish]

Now, that being said, I do like the truly open nature of the Xbox Indies service, but how doesn't it already fill the niche that needs filling? All of the games would still be outputting 720p and be designed for the Xbox 360 controller, so there's not much benefit to having a PC port beyond the simplicity of having things all in one place or being able to sell to non-Xbox owners), and you don't get either with GFWL since the install base is significantly smaller and likely made up of mostly people who also use other PC services.

At the start I'm sure that the bolded would be the case. But if it picked up any type of popularity I'm sure that this could change. XNA certainly supports lots of display and input options (I mean it's the carrier for low-res, touch screen based WP7 games) so there is no reason a dev couldn't roll out a high-res, mouse based game just for the GFWL version of XBLIG. XNA certainly supports creating those types of games from what I've seen.

 

[Gully State]

Personally, as a gamer who spends a lot of time on 360 as well as PC (and PS3, etc.) I really like the addition of achievements and my 360 friends list. I personally have not had any problems with GFWL other than the locked save games issue which is certainly annoying.

I think that for me, the positives are something worth saving and if they can fix the bugs, DRM, and the other issues it's well worth having.

I love Steam. I'd rather buy games from Steam. BUT, those who respond with "you can't beat Steam so you should just kill the product" are shortsighted. Competition benefits everybody in the long run. I'd rather them make GFWL a better service than simply leave the market to Steam.

Personally I'd rather have the other DD companies take on Steam than have MS do it given their wishy washy support.

The only thing I feel that would bring GFWL into relevancy is to simply get first party game support. It's not something I would want mind you but it's the biggest factor that would compel me to use the service.

 

[TouchMyBox]

The biggest problem gfw has is that it doesn't have a reason to exist. The friends list and community features are either non-existant or are completely useless. It forces its points system on you, it adds restrictive drm, it nags you with achievements, the patching system often does not work and requires a lengthy and costly (after a few patches) certification process that takes away the developer's freedom which is what makes the platform so great. A game like tf2 would not be possible on gfw live, so why would gamers want a service that works against the platform rather than work to its strengths?

A service like steam plays to the strengths of the PC, whereas GFWL was a service that was initially billed as a service that would give you that console-like experience on the PC. However microsoft has failed miserably at doing this. The end result is a service that doesn't have any of the cool stuff from PC gaming or Console gaming. I could respect GFWL if there was more cross-platform play, if there were avatars, if all the XBLA games were up for purchase on GFWL, if there was party chat and a front-end with a bunch of neat crap like you have on the xbox. What we have instead is GFWL feeling like a ghettoized version of Xbox Live, and I don't understand why anybody would ever want to touch that with a ten foot pole.

 

[Stop It]

Girlfriend bought Where's Waldo. I can't play it on the same computer she bought it on. I have no idea if this is by design or by defect.

Girlfriend boots up 360 while I'm playing RE5 on GFWL. Oops, signed out, because my tag was set to auto sign-in on 360. The reasoning behind this (prevent account sharers or frauds or whatever) is truly irrelevant to me. It negatively impacts me, so I don't like it.

Patching system is horrendous. With Steam, it auto-detects game patches and downloads them for me. With GFWL, I start the game, login with my gamertag. At this point it's probably been 30-45+ seconds. Oh, wait, game has a patch. Okay, let's patch it. Boom, game boots me out, and downloads and installs the patch. Okay, time to launch the game again. Oh wait, I have to sign in again.

But also, even if GFWL was exactly on par with Steam, why would I use it? I'm already running Steam 24/7. It has the same social functionality. It has achievements. If I wanted to "prevent Steam from gaining a monopoly", wouldn't I be rooting for the little guys, not Redmond, Washington?

And it's not on par. The selection is terrible, they don't have the truly epic sales the other guys have, they don't have any developer outreach in the indie community (with their only indie support being games that are on every other platforms). Efforts to improve the selection would mostly boil down to offering to sell me copies of games that I've already bought on other platforms, and efforts to secure better selection for the future will basically be the same.

Which is another thing. MS needs to stop being so schizophrenic with everything they do. Windows Phone 6.5. No, wait, Windows 7 but we'll still do 6.5. Here's the Kin! The Kin is cancelled! The Zune isn't cancelled but it's clearly not being supported. PC gaming is old, let's fire most of the GFW team, ignore the system for a year or more, and stop porting our games. Wait, now we like PC gaming, how come we don't have a foothold. The browser war is over, time to dismantle IE's team. Oh, no, now people don't use our outrageously shitty browser and developers hate us, I guess we'll set up the IE team again. Outside of MS's most very core products, their reliability for continued support is 0. I would trust some third-tier service like Greenhouse Games over GFW. The problem isn't that I doubt the sincerity of this change in direction, the problem is that I doubt there won't be another change in direction 12-18 months from now.

You say you want arguments for why GFW sucks besides "MS sucks, GFW sucks", but half the arguments for using GFW boil down to "It's Microsoft! And you can talk to your Microsoft friends! And use Microsoft achievements! How are those things better than anyone else's implementation? They're from Microsoft!"

When you say "Mindless rabble when get us nowhere", I disagree. Mindless rabble has worked spectacularly so far. I'm very happy with PC gaming. I'm very happy with Steam. I'm very happy that developers are increasingly abandoning GFWL. Mindless rabble has created an absolutely excellent situation right now. Ignoring the mindless rabble has gotten MS nowhere. Tough break, guys.

For gods sake Microsoft, listen to the madman.

Seriously, GFWL needs to be rebranded for a start, if only to get the sour taste of its conception out of PC gamers mouths, trying to get us to pay for Peer to Peer gaming was a disgrace and has tarnished the brand almost beyond repair.

Also, stop treating PC gamers as poor relations to console gamers. This attiutude is clear by the completely awful interface in game (I think that the in game overlay is an area Steam can improve on, but GFWL makes it look positively fantastic), the save games issues and the activations limit.

One thing that REALLY irks me though is the non game client. Why can't I log in and chat with my friends on GFWL and XBL? Why do I have to launch a game just to do this? I don't have to launch a game on Steam to have a chat with some friends or check their profiles on the Steam community so it's unacceptable to have to do the same on GFWL.

This highlights exactly what Stumpokapow has pointed out, GFWL was clearly thrown together with little thought on just exactly what Microsoft wanted to achieve. The lack of direction is so obvious when these glaring omissions have remained unsolved for so damn long. While the renewed focus on PC gaming is welcome, Microsoft will not earn my trust until they can prove that they can sustain a proper level support for PC gamers, after all, Valve are not going anywhere and frankly they have done far more for the PC gaming community than Microsoft has for years.

So, if anyone at Microsoft is reading this, heed our warning: You want our support? Treat us like consumers, not criminals, treat us as what we are, rather than just throwing console features at us using the least effort possible. But moreover, prove that you're in for the long haul, the PC gaming community is by and large fiercely loyal, yet betray our trust and we wont forget.

I think Microsoft has one last chance to prove that they can be a force for the PC gaming community, after all, for for first time I think ever in the history of the PC, Microsoft needs our support as PC gamers more than we need Microsoft's support.

 

[kiunchbb]

Make it free, full of feature, and support all types of games.

I was never fans of install any useless program in my computer, then I played Half Life, TF2, Portal, and all my friends start using Steam for the "ingame UI", easy purchase, trouble-free DRM. I installed steam, and had it on every time I start my PC, I cannot live without it anymore.

A community is something you build on, not something you force everyone to use.

 

[poppabk]

Now, that being said, I do like the truly open nature of the Xbox Indies service, but how doesn't it already fill the niche that needs filling? All of the games would still be outputting 720p and be designed for the Xbox 360 controller, so there's not much benefit to having a PC port beyond the simplicity of having things all in one place or being able to sell to non-Xbox owners), and you don't get either with GFWL since the install base is significantly smaller and likely made up of mostly people who also use other PC services.

I would assume its purpose would be this:

Users: 62,368,156 monthly active users - the number of farmville players.

42 million - total number of 360's WW

11.5 million - number of WoW subscribers (2008)

There is a massive market out there that will play games on PC - you just have to reach them. Sure they may not all have great hardware, but plenty have average hardware.

 

[brain_stew]

I would assume its purpose would be this:

Users: 62,368,156 monthly active users - the number of farmville players.

42 million - total number of 360's WW

11.5 million - number of WoW subscribers (2008)

There is a massive market out there that will play games on PC - you just have to reach them. Sure they may not all have great hardware, but plenty have average hardware.

You can add Steam's ~30 million users, nearly 2 million of which are logged in at any one time, to that as well. Valve managed to create a platform just as lucrative as a console without sinking 5 billion to get it off the ground like Microsoft had to do with the Xbox.

 

[Sectus]

I think the main problems are these 3:
-An absolutely horrific launch: online play divided into 3 parts, you had to pay to access one of them, parts of GFWL could be buggy and slow (unfortunately, this is still kinda true, as you get an ugly 10 second freeze when accessing list play in K&L1), bad UI, no marketplace, exclusive to Vista, and other things

They've since fixed almost all of that, but I think there's a ton of people out there who are burned and aren't willing to try it again.

-Steam. People flock around it, love it, and swear nothing else is as good. I dunno how GFWL can really fight against that, but they're fighting an uphill battle because of it.

-No standalone client. They've already made the marketplace client, but GFWL could really really need a client where you log in to chat with friends and be able to check and compare your achievements. Similar to what you do on the xbox dashboard. Combining it with the marketplace client would probably be a good thing.

 

[TheClair]

I like GFWL. I've had no problems with it. The interface can be a little clunky, but it's not terrible. I like the integration with my XBL account and the shared achievement lists. Cross platform chat would be nice.

Some of these complaints are ridiculous.
"I forgot my login/password" - You can it auto-sign in for you
"It's redundant" - A Valve monopoly doesn't help anyone. Some DD's (Impulse, maybe others) won't sell titles that have Steamworks. GFWL is a good middle point for them. Developers can have their title on multiple DD's and still have achievements, friends lists, etc.

 

[webrunner]

You know what's really annoying?

If you have GFWL set to auto-login, and you try to develop an XNA game before paying the $100 for xbox access, GFWL makes your application not run as you dont have credientials to use GFWL if you use XBL hooks.

You have to run another GFWL game, then manually log out, then close it, and then go back to running the application. This shit is archiac.

Why is something shared between applications not application indpendant?

 

[perryfarrell]

MY GFWL experience (from GTA5 which already used Steam).

Poor integration into the game, forcing unwanted features down one's throat, big hassles with registering an account/creating yet another login, shitty/illogical interface, etc. It's just an obstacle that offers nothing and only stands in the way of enjoying your game.

 

[Stop It]

I like GFWL. I've had no problems with it. The interface can be a little clunky, but it's not terrible. I like the integration with my XBL account and the shared achievement lists. Cross platform chat would be nice.

Some of these complaints are ridiculous.
"I forgot my login/password" - You can it auto-sign in for you
"It's redundant" - A Valve monopoly doesn't help anyone. Some DD's (Impulse, maybe others) won't sell titles that have Steamworks. GFWL is a good middle point for them. Developers can have their title on multiple DD's and still have achievements, friends lists, etc.

Sorry, but this post is so laughable I don't know where to begin. You like the "integration" with XBl that only barely works when you're in a game, outside of it, you're nowhere. I can leave my 360 on idle and use the community functions just fine, why GFWL doesn't offer this on the desktop client is incomprehensible.

As for Valve and Steams de-facto monopoly not being good for anyone, care to back that up with anything other than mis-guided hyperbole? Unlike Microsoft, Valve have proven themselves to be committed to Steam (7 years and counting) and the wider PC gaming community for nearly a decade, MS are like a fly by night operation by comparison.

It is not Valve's fault that they have decimated the competition, nor should Microsoft or anyone else have a divine right to challenge them. GFWL (or any other competitor, actual or hypothetical) needs to at least match or better Steam in order to compete, as it stands, nobody else is close, so Valve deserve to be where they are.

Steamworks is a little too closely tied to Steam (Although you can use Steamworks without needing to use the Steam client itself, although only NBA 2k9 exists that has done that) but frankly, if other DD services shun games because of Steamworks, more fool them. Remember, GFWL has its own storefront too, should the likes of Impulse and D2D stop stocking GFWL games because they can be bought directly from Microsoft?

I do not hate GFWL, as a system it's not the worst I have ever used, but frankly, given the choice between it and Steam, the choice isn't exactly a hard one and for developers between GFWL and Steamworks, it really isn't either. Competition is good, but when the competition cannot, or will not, compete with the market leader, they do not deserve to be in the market.

 

[dLMN8R]

My main issue is that it's obvious over the past 2-3 years that not a single feature has been considered that doesn't bring direct revenue.

UI updates? Nope
Experience updates? Nope
Improved out-of-game experience? Nope


But on the other hand, we get DLC support and Games on Demand support....fantastic.

 

[speculawyer]

Just forget it. Steam won. I don't think we need both.

 

[soco]

region locking the profiles is silly. MS does this shit on several of their services, and their response is to just "make a new account". No. when i buy shit, i want the option of changing countries when i've moved, to allow me to then purchase off the store in that country and use a credit card from that country.

 

[Karram]

I once had a terrible experience downloading Gears of War using GFWL.

The installer which was 11GB had to be installed on my C drive which only had 7GB free space, even though it was set to install on another drive. So half the way through the downloading process it stopped downloading so I tried to set the download to another drive and it also stopped downloading for the same reason. I then realized that my C drive is full because it didn't even bother to delete the uncompleted download. So I had to delete the files my self and free some space on my C drive by moving my iTunes folder to another drive. And after it finished downloading it then installed the game on the Drive it was set to install in. That means that it needs 11GB for the installer and another 11GB for the game itself unlike steam where it just installs the game itself with no need to an installer. After that painstaking process I decided never to buy anything from GFWL ever again.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Steam is just so painless I don't want to use anything else. Sorry but I can't put it any other way.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I think people put far too much trust in Steam. MS is certainly less trustworthy, don't get me wrong, but from reading the responses here people seem to think Valve is akin to their sweet old grandmother and could do no wrong.

Make no mistake. While I believe Valve currently is making the right moves, all it would take would be for the wrong people to retire, sell the company, or heaven forbid, die in a plane crash and the company under the wrong leadership could use their immense leverage (since they hold our game collections) to extract fees from us and bend us over.

I'm not saying we shouldn't trust Steam, but I think more people should give some thought to the possibilities.

 

[Jin34]

Other than the obvious issues mentioned in the OP, a personal request I have would be to add cross platform party chat on the GFWL. I'm sure it's pretty low on the list of priorities but it would be a huge addition for me.

Seconded, it's ridiculous that I, as a gold member on the 360, can't join a party chat when playing a GFWL game on PC which more often than not is with 360 pad to boot.

 

[Huggers]

Girlfriend bought Where's Waldo. I can't play it on the same computer she bought it on. I have no idea if this is by design or by defect.

Girlfriend boots up 360 while I'm playing RE5 on GFWL. Oops, signed out, because my tag was set to auto sign-in on 360. The reasoning behind this (prevent account sharers or frauds or whatever) is truly irrelevant to me. It negatively impacts me, so I don't like it.

Patching system is horrendous. With Steam, it auto-detects game patches and downloads them for me. With GFWL, I start the game, login with my gamertag. At this point it's probably been 30-45+ seconds. Oh, wait, game has a patch. Okay, let's patch it. Boom, game boots me out, and downloads and installs the patch. Okay, time to launch the game again. Oh wait, I have to sign in again.

But also, even if GFWL was exactly on par with Steam, why would I use it? I'm already running Steam 24/7. It has the same social functionality. It has achievements. If I wanted to "prevent Steam from gaining a monopoly", wouldn't I be rooting for the little guys, not Redmond, Washington?

And it's not on par. The selection is terrible, they don't have the truly epic sales the other guys have, they don't have any developer outreach in the indie community (with their only indie support being games that are on every other platforms). Efforts to improve the selection would mostly boil down to offering to sell me copies of games that I've already bought on other platforms, and efforts to secure better selection for the future will basically be the same.

Which is another thing. MS needs to stop being so schizophrenic with everything they do. Windows Phone 6.5. No, wait, Windows 7 but we'll still do 6.5. Here's the Kin! The Kin is cancelled! The Zune isn't cancelled but it's clearly not being supported. PC gaming is old, let's fire most of the GFW team, ignore the system for a year or more, and stop porting our games. Wait, now we like PC gaming, how come we don't have a foothold. The browser war is over, time to dismantle IE's team. Oh, no, now people don't use our outrageously shitty browser and developers hate us, I guess we'll set up the IE team again. Outside of MS's most very core products, their reliability for continued support is 0. I would trust some third-tier service like Greenhouse Games over GFW. The problem isn't that I doubt the sincerity of this change in direction, the problem is that I doubt there won't be another change in direction 12-18 months from now.

You say you want arguments for why GFW sucks besides "MS sucks, GFW sucks", but half the arguments for using GFW boil down to "It's Microsoft! And you can talk to your Microsoft friends! And use Microsoft achievements! How are those things better than anyone else's implementation? They're from Microsoft!"

When you say "Mindless rabble when get us nowhere", I disagree. Mindless rabble has worked spectacularly so far. I'm very happy with PC gaming. I'm very happy with Steam. I'm very happy that developers are increasingly abandoning GFWL. Mindless rabble has created an absolutely excellent situation right now. Ignoring the mindless rabble has gotten MS nowhere. Tough break, guys.

Game, set and match

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

They can easily kill Steam if the give GFWL the same (and more) support that the 360 has received up to this point. I don't think MS has the balls to throw that much money rebuilding their PC platform though given the small audience they would receive out of it.

Sorry but Microsoft couldn't kill Steam just by pumping money into GFWL. No company can kill Steam without Valve doing it first. By that I mean the ball is in Valves hand to destroy Steam, not anyother company. Microsoft can't just bully their way into the PC DD market like they did the console one. They tried that by charging a fee and the PC community laughed forcing them to do away with the fee. Unlike the console market the PC is openand cannot be controlled by any one company which is why Microsoft basically gave up on it.

 

[Gully State]

You can add Steam's ~30 million users, nearly 2 million of which are logged in at any one time, to that as well. Valve managed to create a platform just as lucrative as a console without sinking 5 billion to get it off the ground like Microsoft had to do with the Xbox.

That's a really good point that I never considered. Steam as a platform costs peanuts compared to the costs required to develop hardware/manufacture/give retailers a cut of the profits.

 

[Mr Sandman]

It hasn't bugged me a whole lot other than its refusal to read my backed up Batman saves. Fucking shit is infuriating. Achievements are nice, but at this point I'd rather build up my Steam achievements than screwing up my saves.

 

[brain_stew]

Sorry but Microsoft couldn't kill Steam just by pumping money into GFWL. No company can kill Steam without Valve doing it first. By that I mean the ball is in Valves hand to destroy Steam, not anyother company. Microsoft can't just bully their way into the PC DD market like they did the console one. They tried that by charging a fee and the PC community laughed forcing them to do away with the fee. Unlike the console market the PC is openand cannot be controlled by any one company which is why Microsoft basically gave up on it.

If Steam has already won then why is Google about to enter the PC DD gaming market? Microsoft have a much better starting place than Google does (which is basically nothing) so why should it be so impossible for them to get a piece of the pie when they already have part of the market and have plenty of key synergies and exclusive content that they could leverage? The market isn't already wrapped up as some seem to think.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I'm not saying we shouldn't trust Steam, but I think more people should give some thought to the possibilities.

On one hand I completely agree that just because they are reliable doesn't mean they'll stay reliable. On the other, there hasn't been one service I can think of that offers a service worth making me consider thinking about them, much less switching.

 

[brain_stew]

On one hand I completely agree that just because they are reliable doesn't mean they'll stay reliable. On theother, there hasn't been one service I can think of that offers a service worth making me consider thinking about them, much less switching.

GOG.com?
Impulse?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

GOG.com?
Impulse?

Not particularly. The only time I even remember GoG exists is when they have ridiculous sale (which is about the same frequency as steam, albeit at different times.) I know next to nothing, nor care to, about Impulse. The Way I see it, if it were great enough to pay attention to I would have heard about it by now.

 

[charlequin]

the more suggestions and the more coherent the feedback the better.

The only suggestion that's really necessary is that Microsoft needs to make GFWL into an actual PC gaming system.

Look at 360. Why is Live so successful there? It's the most feature-complete software/network platform available in the console world, it's the most elegantly integrated into the hardware it runs on, it's got the most desirable features, it uses the paradigm it's built for in a great way to improve your entire experience with the system. It was clearly designed by people who "got" console gaming and wanted to make the most effective system possible for it.

GFWL (and actually all "Live" integration outside the Xbox) on the other hand has absolutely nothing to do with what actually works for PCs. It's region-based even though PCs are universal worldwide hardware. It's single login even though this actively worsens their integration features -- using GFWL removes my ability to use my 360 while I'm on it which means I actively want to avoid linking the two accounts if I can help it. It uses stupid and consumer-unfriendly DRM even though activation limits actively drive away more sales than they regain through piracy prevention.

If they want to make it a vital and useful service it needs to actually fit with what works on a PC: a tiny, sleek executable that runs fast and hides in the background without gobbling RAM or CPU cycles; least-possible DRM; universal and region-free accounts with an extremely tolerant sign-in policy; sensible and sane ways of paying for things.

If they want to try to do something better than Steam, they should look at what works about XBL and try to port some of that conceptually rather than just stamping it down directly. Letting different gamertags play the same game regardless of which tags "own it" once it's installed and earn achievements, store separate settings, etc. would be nice compared to Steam. Universal cloud storage of saves and settings would be nice. An expansion of XBL's controller-settings system could be great -- save default keybindings and mouse settings for a user that'd be automatically imported into every game, as well as autosuggesting graphical settings based on your hardware and pre-defined preferences so every new game doesn't have to involve that five-minute res/settings rejiggering process.

I don't see how anything remotely like that is possible unless MS decides they actually really, really care about PC gaming again which I don't see happening, though.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

If Steam has already won then why is Google about to enter the PC DD gaming market? Microsoft have a much better starting place than Google does (which is basically nothing) so why should it be so impossible for them to get a piece of the pie when they already have part of the market and have plenty of key synergies and exclusive content that they could leverage? The market isn't already wrapped up as some seem to think.

Is google going to sell big franchises or casual games? Selling iPhone style games is quite different than what Steam, GG, D2D sell.

 

[TouchMyBox]

If Steam has already won then why is Google about to enter the PC DD gaming market? Microsoft have a much better starting place than Google does (which is basically nothing) so why should it be so impossible for them to get a piece of the pie when they already have part of the market and have plenty of key synergies and exclusive content that they could leverage? The market isn't already wrapped up as some seem to think.

Google has something new to offer, they're not chasing steam. While Microsoft is reaching out to the community and asking them why they suck, Valve is snatching up the last of the major publishers in offering them the Steamworks API set.

 

[Stumpokapow]

If Steam has already won then why is Google about to enter the PC DD gaming market? Microsoft have a much better starting place than Google does (which is basically nothing) so why should it be so impossible for them to get a piece of the pie when they already have part of the market and have plenty of key synergies and exclusive content that they could leverage? The market isn't already wrapped up as some seem to think.

Google is actually entering the PC app marketplace. They're going to sell all sorts of apps, not just games, although games are a launch pad. They're not doing an IM framework, they're not doing achievements, and most of the games for sale are going to be flash portal type games. They're not trying to compete with Steam. MS is, by offering the exact same thing as Steam only not executed as well.

In addition, Google is charging $0 to sell through their service. Well, actually, $0.05. MS isn't going to do that. Google is allowing free games. MS won't do that.

There's some overlap, but it's really not the same thing.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

If Steam has already won then why is Google about to enter the PC DD gaming market? Microsoft have a much better starting place than Google does (which is basically nothing) so why should it be so impossible for them to get a piece of the pie when they already have part of the market and have plenty of key synergies and exclusive content that they could leverage? The market isn't already wrapped up as some seem to think.

If you want to take on a market, you have to either do what your competitor ISN'T doing, or do what they're doing BETTER. I have no idea what Google can do to improve on Steam, however i'm sure they won't be content with just "me too". that's what GFWL strikes me as - Microsoft saying "we want the PC" without actually putting any thought into what they need to do to achieve that goal.

Spoiler

actually, that can be said of a lot of MS products and services...

 

[brain_stew]

On one hand I completely agree that just because they are reliable doesn't mean they'll stay reliable. On theother, there hasn't been one service I can think of that offers a service worth making me consider thinking about them, much less switching.

GOG.com?
Impulse?

 

[Diomedeskun]

I've had no major problems with the service, but I've only played a few games on it and only one was purchased through GFWL, the other two were from Steam.

I like the integration with Xbox Live and I like being able to see my friends on their XBoxes and send them messages, but I would love to be able to play games with them acrosss systems.

I also have 300 MS points, but I can't use them because everything I want costs more or less and you cannot combine cash and points. The points are also sold in annoying increments

 

[Mrbob]

The problem with steam for indie developers is that its not open. Many great titles have been rejected and will continue to be and while there's that large barrier there (and I don't believe Valve will ever remove it) I think there's still a niche that needs filling.

Despite that this makes the lack of a service like this by Microsoft even more staggeringly ridiculous. Microsoft are providing him the tools to make the game and he's forced to go to the competition to get it distributed. XNA contributing to GFWL's own downfall? There's certainly an argument there while Microsoft don't offer any real alternative themselves.

Are we talking about trying to bring GFWL back to prominence or serving a small niche? Because GFWL could have the greatest Indie setup ever and this alone will not help bring it back into the spotlight.

Also, I'd love to hear the context of these rejections instead of just the developer complaining their product has been rejected. XBL has 1, 3, and 5 dollar pricing. I'm sure these developers would get rejected on MS service too if they wanted to sell something for 19.99.

 

[pyros]

steam, cross platform gaming nothing more nothing less

 

[Mrbob]

They can easily kill Steam if the give GFWL the same (and more) support that the 360 has received up to this point. I don't think MS has the balls to throw that much money rebuilding their PC platform though given the small audience they would receive out of it.

Disagree. Any chance MS had to "kill" Steam is long gone. MS can attempt the second place prize, but if Impulse would get their stuff together with Reactor I would say MS could only get the bronze.

 

[Xavien]

When i got Gears of War for the PC, the GFWL software caused the game to crash almost instantly to desktop after i started playing, it took 2 months for Microsoft to patch GFWL before i could play for longer than 2 minutes.

After this i couldn't actually log into GFWL for 5-6 months so i could only save with a local profile which was hidden in a link in the terms and conditions page, when i finally managed to connect (needed to turn on some obscure setting in my router, which steam didn't have problems with), it turns out i cant transfer saves from my offline profile to my online one, so when i login now all my offline saves are not there (i wouldn't mind no achievements, but the saves are just not there when i login to the online profile)

I haven't liked GFWL ever since. Everything about it just seems half-arsed :/

 

[crimsonheadGCN]

Disagree. Any chance MS had to "kill" Steam is long gone. MS can attempt the second place prize, but if Impulse would get their stuff together with Reactor I would say MS could only get the bronze.

There's even more competition than Stardock's Impulse though. Today, Paradox announced a new service for their own titles, as well as others(?), called Paradox Connect that will allow for Achievements and other social networking stuff. Then there is Battle.net, but that will most likely be limited to just Blizzard titles, since Blizzard and the lead developer of Battle.net believe that having Battle.net limited is an advantage.

So not even a second or third place victory is assured. There's just more potential services now that are not seen as bad (yet) to the PC community.

 

[dionysus]

Stop signing exclusivity agreements for XBLA. If it is on XBLA, it should be on GFWL if the developer wants to support it.

Convince us that you aren't going to "refocus" away from PC gaming yet again in 12 months.

Get control of your PR message. If you aren't really doing something substantial for PC gaming, don't say you are. How many times has MS PR told us how they are going to reinvigorate the platform and then taken steps to destroy it. Why should we believe you now?

Stop trying to turn PC gaming into a clone of xbox gaming.

If you are going to lock down save games to that specific install of the game, you have fucked up. Enable cloud saving and tie it to the profile, that way you preserve the integrity of the gamerscore, not that I give a fuck about the meaningless gamerscore. But apparently that is the reason why the GFWL save system is so fucked up.

And, for an idea that even Steam doesn't do. Support mod downloads from within the client to make mod installs painless. Have a drastically scaled back certification process for mods if the mod creator wants to get it on the platform. Have a big bold disclaimer claiming you take no responsibility for the quality of the install, and combine that with unlimited reinstalls of purchased games.

 

[ghst]

And, for an idea that even Steam doesn't do. Support mod downloads from within the client to make mod installs painless. Have a drastically scaled back certification process for mods if the mod creator wants to get it on the platform. Have a big bold disclaimer claiming you take no responsibility for the quality of the install, and combine that with unlimited reinstalls of purchased games.

steam does offer full mod support, though i don't think it's a breezy open window.

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Steam_3rd_Party_Mod_Support

(see darkest hour or pirates, vikings and knights II)

 

[Sysgen]

To improve your GFWL service put more games on it and let it evolve. Steam evolves because it needs to. If your service has no games then why would it evolve? It certainly can but what is the incentive? Conceding the difficulty to get publishers to make a title GFWL but you have your own exclusives. I don't get the argument that we can't release a game on the PC because it some how might hurt the 360 business. That's nonsense. People with high end PCs will play most of the time on the PC so release your 360 exclusives to the PC using GFWL and they wind up in the MS domain anyway having to play through GFWL. So why limit your assets to one box when you could be growing GFWL and evolving it? If you don't show confidence in GFWL then why should your partners? I didn't buy Alan Wake because I've moved to PC gaming even though I have a 360. I want to play it on my PC and thereby GFWL. Whos loss is that? Not mine but Microsoft.

As far as backups of games, I back mine up all the time but need to backup 2 directories? GFWL and XLive. How do I know this? Not from your client. I had to find it on the internet. Integrate a backup and restore solution into your client.

 

[FoneBone]

As far as backups of games, I back mine up all the time but need to backup 2 directories? GFWL and XLive. How do I know this? Not from your client. I had to find it on the internet. Integrate a backup and restore solution into your client.

This, for the love of god. I had to replace my hard drive, and figured that I'd be fine if I backed up my Arkham Asylum save file directory (like, you know, any PC game ever before GFWL came along). Whoops.

 

[Gully State]

When it comes down to it, MS should've had Live be the platform and the 360 be a hardware solution rather than having the 360 as a platform and a fragmented Live infrastructure.

 

[Emitan]

1- It runs on top of other services. I bought GTA IV on Steam. Not only do I have Steam running to play that game, but Games for Windows Live is also running at the same even though both are accomplishing the same thing

2- It's obtrusive. When I launch a game on Steam, the Steam overlay is completely optional and doesn't have to be seen. In a GFWL game, the overlay is constantly popping up, moving slowly, making noise, and pestering me. I do not want to have to associate my PC game with my Xbox profile just to save.