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Why is it hard for western developers to be creative like Japanese developers?

Andrew2

Banned
First of all, I used to have this passion for western developed more than a japanese developed title(save for
SEGA,Capcom and Namco arcade games), however thats changing. My problem -- everytime I look at some western developed title, its always knocking-off some published work whether it be storyline, artwork or etc. I mean, how many NA RPG's are going to pull thier art design striaght from D&D or LOTR or some FPS pulling thier story/plotline,character design from the best sci-fi books,comic or even movie. What worst, the storyline a majority of the time is uninspired. I'am already quite shocked Bungie ripped-off Ghost In The Shell in every sense with ONI(note how Konoko = Major Kusanagi for exsample).

Now I look at Japanese developed titles particullary RPG's, I see some very creative approaches to art design and story. One the subject of art design, while I might not be a Sqaure-Enix fan, one thing I have to admit that I give them credit for the art design in some of their games, particullary Code Age Commanders which show alot of creative effort when approached to art. Same can be said about other titles like Shining Force NEO,Okami, Wanda, Genji and just to name a few. Even on the subject of story/plotlines in Japanese developed titles, they actually makes sense and show alot of original creativity like that of MGS and some of the RPG's. Whats interesting, while NA developers seem to rely on some guy out of hollywood to write a epic plot, Japanese developers seem to do it better in-house, and without having to turn to somebody from hollywood all the time.

In the end though, it sad that when it comes to actually designing a game in every sense, a majority of western developers seem to be lagging behind their Japanese counter-parts and I don't see any change.
 
I play very good and deep western games on my PC/PS2.
I also play very good and deep eastern games on my PS2/ Cube.

I couldn't be happier.
 
I recall jarrod mentioned something interesting partly touching on this matter before, that EA has a different business model from many of the bigger Eastern publishers/developers. Instead of creating their own original IP, they typically use licences and famous brands to build their games around.
 
Sounds like more of a preference problem on your end to me. I see just as much creativity and genericness in western games as I do in japanese ones.
 
I just wanted to be the third person with a De Niro avatar to post in this thread. :D

P.S. Western devs invented the RPG.

B000065CT3.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


Go play World of Warcraft
 
i think it's the approach:

japanese developers seem to think 'what do i want to do to make this game better?', whereas western devs think 'what can i do to make this game better?'

the difference is the japanese scope is so much bigger (i.e. everything), they seem to think whatever i want to do, i can. western devs, on the other hand, have a more limited approach, based on things that have already happened in videogames, then they tweak it.

generally.
 
1) On the whole, we get the better Japanese games. We miss some awesome niche titles, but we also miss a shit-ton of crap.

2) Go play Psychonauts, realize you are wrong.
 
I have to agree with the topic starter on all points, but I don't have an answer to the actual question. What I find interesting is that French devs have historically been able to do the same thing Japanese devs do, most recently with Beyond Good & Evil. This has led me to theorize that maybe it is because Japanese and French devs draw their inspiration more from comic books and graphic novels, as both countries have a long, rich tradition of making quirky, surreal comic books, while devs from other countries seem to draw their inspiration mainly from movies and D&D lore.

It's something that has changed. In the 80s Western devs were extremely creative on the personal computers such a Spectrum and C64, while Japanese devs were pretty much doing arcade games. These days Western devs seem to churn out one Tribal-tattoo-omg-I'm-gonna-kick-so-much-ass game after the other. Japanese devs don't feel the need to always be so damn "tough".
 
the problem with the question posed here is that you perhaps don`t get to see the thousands of ass games that we get in Japan.
 
Andrew2 said:
In the end though, it sad that when it comes to actually designing a game in every sense, a majority of western developers seem to be lagging behind their Japanese counter-parts and I don't see any change.

:lol :lol :lol
 
I like a lot of Japanese game better in some ways. If such a broad generalization makes any sense. But if you think that the RPGs are the flagship of eastern developed creativity, you're on crack or have undemanding taste.

And also...play Psychonauts. It might be the most creative title I've touched this year.
 
DCharlie said:
the problem with the question posed here is that you perhaps don`t get to see the thousands of ass games that we get in Japan.

I don't think that's got a whole lot of relevance to what Andrew (and so many others) is talking about. It's about 1st and 2nd tier titles from both Japan and the West. At least, that's what I apply my observations to.
 
Well, this is his opinion and I hear were he is coming from...

I am the exact opposite from Andrew2...

I used to think that the majority of western game were just not up to Japanese standards...

Although the best Japanse developers are the very best in the industry (IMO) the rise of the western developer in with this gen of gaming (Dreamcast, PS2, GCN, Xbox) has been nothing more than remarkable...

With this gen, a large number of western (north america and Europe) developers finnally "get it" and is the main reason the gaming industry has grown so much...to the point where western developers are now the dominant force in gaming (not just with sales, but game quality too)....
 
ziran said:
i think it's the approach:

japanese developers seem to think 'what do i want to do to make this game better?', whereas western devs think 'what can i do to make this game better?'

the difference is the japanese scope is so much bigger (i.e. everything), they seem to think whatever i want to do, i can. western devs, on the other hand, have a more limited approach, based on things that have already happened in videogames, then they tweak it.

generally.

Hmm, in my opinion, you've got that totally backwards... It's always seemed to me that Japanese devs are the ones who rely on tradition and linear, easy to grasp gameplay... while the Western devs try throwing every thing at the book at you (and oftentimes failing). Look at games like Fable, with its immense character customization, or GTA:SA with tons of different gameplay styles thrown in there. Even with the RPGs... a game like Morrowind with its hundreds of quests and huge, open world... versus a game like Xenosaga - linear as hell with few (if any) subquests and a real focused storyline.

Personally, I still overall prefer the Japanese output, but this generation, the West has been *MUCH* better since the days of crap THQ SNES games. It's just that the majority of Western-made games don't appeal to me in the slightest (military games, sports games, extreme sports games, FPSes, thugged-out games, street racers), but that's just a personal thing.
 
"I don't think that's got a whole lot of relevance to what Andrew (and so many others) is talking about. It's about 1st and 2nd tier titles from both Japan and the West. At least, that's what I apply my observations to."

well, okay, then the contention that the west rips all its stuff out of prior art, while the JPNese don`t stated in the first post is somewhat misguided.
 
Repeat after me. Western developers are good. Eastern developers are good. They make different types of games, but are both vital to the preservation and future of game development, in all of its forms. Western developers aren't just about generic first person shooters and racing games, while Eastern developers aren't just about spiky blue haired RPG characters and anime. It's all good. From Devil May Cry 3 to Psychonauts. From Pikmin 2 to God of War. From Metal Gear Solid 3 to World of Warcraft. These companies deserve respect. And neither group produces bad art, only bad artists do. Similarly, neither is less talented in the technical realm, only fond of different approaches.
 
A lot of the "creativity" otaku find in their Japanese games simply comes down to cultural differences. You only have to watch ten minutes of Japanese TV commercials to realize that. I'm not suggesting that gems like Katamari Damacy or Rez aren't epically creative, I'm just pointing out that for every FPS put out in the US, there's another shit Bemani game released in Japan.

And their AAA titles are still using the exact gameplay mechanics from the Famicom version - <cough> Dragon Quest <cough> Final Fantasy<cough>


The big imbalance is that the Japanese tend not to like a larger percentage of "our" output - largely because they like fewer genres than us. And the Japanese gaming market is in the toilet right now. Look at the licenses Namco is buying and then cut your wrists ina warm bath.
 
Andrew2 said:
First of all, I used to have this passion for western developed more than a japanese developed title(save for
SEGA,Capcom and Namco arcade games), however thats changing. My problem -- everytime I look at some western developed title, its always knocking-off some published work whether it be storyline, artwork or etc. I mean, how many NA RPG's are going to pull thier art design striaght from D&D or LOTR or some FPS pulling thier story/plotline,character design from the best sci-fi books,comic or even movie. What worst, the storyline a majority of the time is uninspired. I'am already quite shocked Bungie ripped-off Ghost In The Shell in every sense with ONI(note how Konoko = Major Kusanagi for exsample).

Now I look at Japanese developed titles particullary RPG's, I see some very creative approaches to art design and story. One the subject of art design, while I might not be a Sqaure-Enix fan, one thing I have to admit that I give them credit for the art design in some of their games, particullary Code Age Commanders which show alot of creative effort when approached to art. Same can be said about other titles like Shining Force NEO,Okami, Wanda, Genji and just to name a few. Even on the subject of story/plotlines in Japanese developed titles, they actually makes sense and show alot of original creativity like that of MGS and some of the RPG's. Whats interesting, while NA developers seem to rely on some guy out of hollywood to write a epic plot, Japanese developers seem to do it better in-house, and without having to turn to somebody from hollywood all the time.

In the end though, it sad that when it comes to actually designing a game in every sense, a majority of western developers seem to be lagging behind their Japanese counter-parts and I don't see any change.



Fallout, Wasteland, Jade Empire, Bard Tales 1,2,+ 3 and KoTOR 1 + 2 shits all over this thread and in your mouth....
 
I'm bored in reading this thread. I mean, not because Andrew makes bad because he isn't. It's because of all the cowards that comes here and post unrelevant and stupid trolling thinking they are funny or something. Man, if you don't like Andrews' thread just don't fucking post here damn.
It's your ability to post that should be removed. Can't we have intelligent discussions anymore on GAF?


As to answer the thread, i pretty much agree with the thread starter. Most of the time i can't relate with the inspiration from western devellopers (don't ask me why).
It's most probably a blood thing or something, i also dislike music and many movies from here compared to Europe or Asia stuff.
 
Wyzdom said:
I'm bored in reading this thread. I mean, not because Andrew makes bad because he isn't. It's because of all the cowards that comes here and post unrelevant and stupid trolling thinking they are funny or something. Man, if you don't like Andrews' thread just don't fucking post here damn.
It's your ability to post that should be removed. Can't we have intelligent discussions anymore on GAF?


As to answer the thread, i pretty much agree with the thread starter. Most of the time i can't relate with the inspiration from western devellopers (don't ask me why).
It's most probably a blood thing or something, i also dislike music and many movies from here compared to Europe or Asia stuff.

Stupid threads deserve to be ridiculed. It is the way of the internet. And you're only whining because you agree with him, but can't counter what everyone else here has said to prove why Andrew's argument is stupid.
 
Can't we have intelligent discussions anymore on GAF?

The problem is that all he did was slate western devs without really backing it up. He posted a thread that screamed, 'Japanese game devs>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*". It's pretty pointless to debate and there really isn't any amount of intelligent discussion that will change someone's opinion if they aren't going to be remotely objective in their view.
 
First of all, I used to have this passion for western developed more than a japanese developed title(save for
SEGA,Capcom and Namco arcade games), however thats changing. My problem -- everytime I look at some western developed title, its always knocking-off some published work whether it be storyline, artwork or etc. I mean, how many NA RPG's are going to pull thier art design striaght from D&D or LOTR or some FPS pulling thier story/plotline,character design from the best sci-fi books,comic or even movie. What worst, the storyline a majority of the time is uninspired. I'am already quite shocked Bungie ripped-off Ghost In The Shell in every sense with ONI(note how Konoko = Major Kusanagi for exsample).

You do realize that a lot of Japanese games pull from Magna and anime right? The same arguments could be made about Japanese games.


I hate when people confuse their predisposition to certain art style or type of game with a developer's lack of creativity.

You don't like western games, yeah we got it.
 
Well it's just a constatation (spell?) from him, just a statement. He states his opinion first without saying anything more, just to start the discussion. I can't believe how some people can't see through writings.
And when i answered, i didn't felt like arguing anything, i just wanted to tell Andrew i aggree with what he said (wich mean i prolly have similar tastes for the matter here).

Threads are not always created to start a heated debate. What's more, 90% of the threads we have a debate here are useless because most of the time it's a taste question and it's not really something we can argue about.

Now the true answer to this thread can't be found because here again it's a taste question.
The games that are made here reflect ourselves, our culture and it should fit with our tastes normally. This is also true with other places in the world. Let's say Andrew didn't write his question in the way he should have. But it does not remove the fact that you are retards not to understand shit from this thread and also for your lack of intelligent answers anyway. But insulting is fun i guess. And it is important in your schedule i guess.
Do you start threads? Do you share what you think and talk deep or not about what you think/like/dislike about gaming? It's the perfect place to do it you know. Maybe Andrew is more creative than you at least?
We need less troll posts in this board. I know it prolly won't change or get better, just stating my opinion that's all.
 
CrimsonSkies said:
This gen Japananese developers have been anything but creative.

what are you talking about in this gen we got Onimusha 1 2 3 and Devil my cry 1 2 3 and FF 10, 11, and 12!
 
Blackace said:
what are you talking about in this gen we got Onimusha 1 2 3 and Devil my cry 1 2 3 and FF 10, 11, and 12!


But what about Burnout 1, 2, 3, 4, Jak 1, 2, 3, JAk X, all those countless madden games, Battlefield 1, 2, Vietnam etc...

Mission failed my friend, both sides whore popular franchises equally. I think this East Vs West shit is pathetic.
 
Doom_Bringer said:
But what about Burnout 1, 2, 3, 4, Jak 1, 2, 3, JAk X, all those countless madden games, Battlefield 1, 2, Vietnam etc...

Mission failed my friend, both sides whore popular franchises equally. I think this East Vs West shit is pathetic.

what mission? I should slap you for being silly
 
Making the same exact RPGs and tentacle-fucking simulators for the last 20 years with more shiny effects and better 3D modeling on their goofy anime eyes doesn't make Japan more creative. Similarly, watching a Simpsons episode to get the idea for Katamari Damacy or going to a European rave to get inspiration for Rez isn't exactly helping Japan to look like it's all that self-sufficient in innovating.
 
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