Why is my PC running so slow?

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Bleepey

Member
Like I am not sure, what hell is going on. I turned off Windows Defender and AVG but it still feels like I am walking through 5 feet of mud. It's pretty damn unusable. It ruined my Free porn day.
 
Do a scan with Malwarebytes. Then grab CCleaner to delete all kinds of data that gets in the way.

Check your startup programs and disable anything that isn't necessary to prevent booting automatically.
 
You're gonna have to give us a bit more info, man.

^Good recommendations from ClosingADoor.

Two other good programs for spyware and malware scanning are adwcleaner and Hitman Pro.
 
I see ccleaner has been mentioned.

Check your startup processes and services. Stop anything that looks like you don't need it

Edit - I should have kept reading closingadoor's post. They've covered it

2nd Edit - why are you running Defender and AVG? Choose one and stick to it. I've never run anything other than inbuilt Windows protection and never had a problem but pick what you're most comfortable with
 
Check your processes and services. You'd be surprised at all the stuff that ends up running in the background.

And when in doubt, format.
 
I see ccleaner has been mentioned.

Check your startup processes and services. Stop anything that looks like you don't need it

Edit - I should have kept reading closingadoor's post. They've covered it

2nd Edit - why are you running Defender and AVG? Choose one and stick to it. I've never run anything other than inbuilt Windows protection and never had a problem but pick what you're most comfortable with

Malware bytes was is using up a lot of ram at the moment but other than that there is like next to no other use other than my browser. I also ran disc clean up but not cc cleaner which i'll do later.

I have one SSd and about 4 other HDDs
 
Don't mix active virus scanners. They may try to fight amongst eachother, causing neither one to perform as well as they could.

I'd also open your "Resource Monitor", and check if there are any big spikes anywhere for you harddrives, memory and CPU. Check who the biggest resource hogs are, and give 'em a Google to see if they are things that are supposed to be eating up your performance.
 
I'll check out that tronscript, my PC has 8gb of ram and it say I am using 56% of my memory based on what's in the task manager. However counting up the amount of ram used it's only 512mb or so. Could this be the problem?
 
I'll check out that tronscript, my PC has 8gb of ram and it say I am using 56% of my memory based on what's in the task manager. However counting up the amount of ram used it's only 512mb or so. Could this be the problem?

No, ram is always higher in use than actually reported, because it's keeping stuff to swap in. If it were around 80-90 percent it would be an issue.

Though nearly 60 does sound a little high for just browsing the internet.

You may want to clarify what exactly is happening. Is it like a spike of bad performance or constant?
 
Run Hijackthis and post the log, it shows just about everything currently running on your system. Do you have any processes taking up a lot of CPU resources? Anything taking up an unusual amount of network availability? Anything thrashing your HDDs with high data rates? That can slow things down to a crawl.

Also what kind of stuff did MalwareBytes quarantine? 350 could be dangerously bad, or just a system that has never been cleaned and visiting a lot of shady/porn sites with tracking cookies.
 
I ran malware bytes, it quarantined like 350 stuff but still runs slow.
Let it delete that stuff. Then restart. Run CCleaner and let it clean up stuff. Also in CCleaner let it check your registry. This is all just clicking easy buttons and done.

After that pick either Defender or AVG as your virusscanner, not both. But do leave one running.

Also delete crap you don't use and need. Uninstall programs you don't need. Then check your startup programs and disable stuff you don't need. This can be done in CCleaner also.
 
Run Hijackthis and post the log, it shows just about everything currently running on your system. Do you have any processes taking up a lot of CPU resources? Anything taking up an unusual amount of network availability? Anything thrashing your HDDs with high data rates? That can slow things down to a crawl.

Also what kind of stuff did MalwareBytes quarantine? 350 could be dangerously bad, or just a system that has never been cleaned and visiting a lot of shady/porn sites with tracking cookies.

I didn't check to see what was removed I just clicked finish and restarted. It was the first time in a long time in a long time I ran it. As for dodgy sites, no more than usual. Sure I get the odd ransom ware that insists I need to pay money to use my browser. All of this shit started when the flag at the bottom right of my PC gave me a notice about Windows Defender and I clicked accept. Prior to that I had just changed my motherboard and added some old hard drives to my PC.
 
I didn't check to see what was removed I just clicked finish and restarted. It was the first time in a long time in a long time I ran it. As for dodgy sites, no more than usual. Sure I get the odd ransom ware that insists I need to pay money to use my browser. All of this shit started when the flag at the bottom right of my PC gave me a notice about Windows Defender and I clicked accept. Prior to that I had just changed my motherboard and added some old hard drives to my PC.

How do you even get that ransomware? Stop going to bad sites :P

But seriously, just do a clean format
 
I have to go against the recommendations for using CCleaner and cleaning the registry unless you know exactly what you are doing and what you are deleting. Do a check and then let someone knowledgeable make sure it's all stuff that can be deleted without any adverse effects. It should really be one of your last resorts to fixing your PC, and if it does make a significant difference, a clean format and reinstall is more than likely in order.

How do you even get that ransomware? Stop going to bad sites :P

But seriously, just do a clean format

I think he's not so much talking about ransomware, but those stupid pop-ups that try and stop you from using the browser with a popup that you have to call some number to get help.

On Windows they usually come from dodgy sites, but on Android I have seen ocassionally seen them on completely legitimate tech/forum sites, and they can make it impossible to even use their page sometimes in Chrome.

Also OP, how long has it been since you accepted whatever Defender wanted? Maybe it is running complete scans on your system? You said you had 5 SSD/HDDs total, probably a lot of scanning to do if it was recent. Check the CPU/Disk/Network usage and report if anything is unusually high.
 
Have you cleaned out the inside of your PC lately? I let mine go for over a year and started seeing performance degradation in some games because my CPU heatsink was so clogged with dust it was overheating. Something to consider.
 
Another thing that could be is your CPU getting too hot and it throttles. Check your CPU usage and Frequency.
 
I think he's not so much talking about ransomware, but those stupid pop-ups that try and stop you from using the browser with a popup that you have to call some number to get help.

All of this shit started when the flag at the bottom right of my PC gave me a notice about Windows Defender and I clicked accept.

That doesn't happen from the browser, though. This is something that was actually running off the PC
 
Another thing that could be is your CPU getting too hot and it throttles. Check your CPU usage and Frequency.

Also good advice, maybe a fan cable has detached from the Mobo/PSU or stopped working altogether. Get CPUID HWMonitor and check that all thermals look good.



That doesn't happen from the browser, though. This is something that was actually running off the PC

Ahh, thought he meant the browser popups, I had one the other day and it was fresh in my mind.

The fake Virus/Spyware removal scams can get quite bad, I have known one person to actually pay for the service instead of just removing the malware, and a couple thankfully inquired what it was and had me remove it.
 
The OP PC is obviously infected give 350 item quarantine. He needs to run other scans because they usually will miss something that another will find. I would suggest you download free trail versions of high rated paid scanner and run them.
 
Does Windows allow you to defrag a SSD using the default Windows program?

I figured the system know not to do that.

The default Windows defrag "optimizes" SSDs (which I think means just runs TRIM on them). Some third party defrag programs let you do it, though.
 
Run Hijackthis and post the log, it shows just about everything currently running on your system. Do you have any processes taking up a lot of CPU resources? Anything taking up an unusual amount of network availability? Anything thrashing your HDDs with high data rates? That can slow things down to a crawl.

Also what kind of stuff did MalwareBytes quarantine? 350 could be dangerously bad, or just a system that has never been cleaned and visiting a lot of shady/porn sites with tracking cookies.

Logfile of Trend Micro HijackThis v2.0.5
Scan saved at 14:01:32, on 09/09/2016
Platform: Unknown Windows (WinNT 6.02.1008)
MSIE: Internet Explorer v11.0 (11.00.9600.18123)

FIREFOX: 32.0.2 (x86 en-US)
Boot mode: Normal

Running processes:
C:\Program Files (x86)\NVIDIA Corporation\Update Core\NvBackend.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Free Download Manager\fdm.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Skillbrains\lightshot\5.3.0.0\Lightshot.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Dropbox\Client\Dropbox.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\DFX\DFX.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\DFX\Universal\Apps\DfxSharedApp32.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Update\51.0.0.11603\TorchUpdate.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Mozilla Firefox\firefox.exe
C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Application\torch.exe
C:\Users\Me\Downloads\HijackThis.exe

R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Bar = Preserve
R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?type=avastbcl&hspart=avast&hsimp=yhs-001&p={searchTerms}
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=619797&pc=UE12&ocid=UE12DHP
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Bar = https://uk.yahoo.com?fr=hp-avast&type=avastbcl
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?type=avastbcl&hspart=avast&hsimp=yhs-001&p={searchTerms}
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = https://uk.yahoo.com?fr=hp-avast&type=avastbcl
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,SearchAssistant =
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,CustomizeSearch =
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Local Page = C:\Windows\SysWOW64\blank.htm
R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet Settings,ProxyOverride = *.local
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Toolbar,LinksFolderName =
F2 - REG:system.ini: UserInit=userinit.exe,
O2 - BHO: Java(tm) Plug-In SSV Helper - {761497BB-D6F0-462C-B6EB-D4DAF1D92D43} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre1.8.0_101\bin\ssv.dll
O2 - BHO: AVG Web TuneUp - {95B7759C-8C7F-4BF1-B163-73684A933233} - C:\Program Files (x86)\AVG Web TuneUp\4.3.5.160\AVG Web TuneUp.dll
O2 - BHO: SkypeIEPluginBHO - {AE805869-2E5C-4ED4-8F7B-F1F7851A4497} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Toolbars\Internet Explorer\SkypeIEPlugin.dll
O2 - BHO: Free Download Manager - {CC59E0F9-7E43-44FA-9FAA-8377850BF205} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Free Download Manager\iefdm2.dll
O2 - BHO: Java(tm) Plug-In 2 SSV Helper - {DBC80044-A445-435b-BC74-9C25C1C588A9} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre1.8.0_101\bin\jp2ssv.dll
O3 - Toolbar: AVG Web TuneUp - {95B7759C-8C7F-4BF1-B163-73684A933233} - C:\Program Files (x86)\AVG Web TuneUp\4.3.5.160\AVG Web TuneUp.dll
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [amd_dc_opt] C:\Program Files (x86)\AMD\Dual-Core Optimizer\amd_dc_opt.exe
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [vProt] "C:\Program Files (x86)\AVG Web TuneUp\vprot.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Lightshot] C:\Program Files (x86)\Skillbrains\lightshot\Lightshot.exe
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [QuickTime Task] "C:\Program Files (x86)\QuickTime\QTTask.exe" -atboottime
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Andy] C:\Program Files\Andy\HandyAndy.exe
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Dropbox] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Dropbox\Client\Dropbox.exe" /systemstartup
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [BlueStacks Agent] C:\Program Files (x86)\BlueStacks\HD-Agent.exe
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [AvgUi] "C:\Program Files (x86)\AVG\Framework\Common\avguirna.exe" /lps=fmw
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Syncios device service] C:\Program Files (x86)\Syncios\SynciosDeviceService.exe
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [DFX] C:\Program Files (x86)\DFX\DFX.exe -startup
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [SunJavaUpdateSched] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Java\Java Update\jusched.exe"
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [Google Update] "C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Google\Update\GoogleUpdate.exe" /c
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [MusicManager] "C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Programs\Google\MusicManager\MusicManager.exe"
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [EADM] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Origin\Origin.exe" -AutoStart
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [Free Download Manager] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Free Download Manager\fdm.exe" -autorun
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [GoogleChromeAutoLaunch_B15980692E1EA629AB6E3A121B322CCD] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Chrome\Application\chrome.exe" --no-startup-window /prefetch:5
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [CCleaner Monitoring] "C:\Program Files\CCleaner\CCleaner64.exe" /MONITOR
O8 - Extra context menu item: Download all with Free Download Manager - file://C:\Program Files (x86)\Free Download Manager\dlall.htm
O8 - Extra context menu item: Download selected with Free Download Manager - file://C:\Program Files (x86)\Free Download Manager\dlselected.htm
O8 - Extra context menu item: Download video with Free Download Manager - file://C:\Program Files (x86)\Free Download Manager\dlfvideo.htm
O8 - Extra context menu item: Download with Free Download Manager - file://C:\Program Files (x86)\Free Download Manager\dllink.htm
O9 - Extra button: Skype Click to Call settings - {898EA8C8-E7FF-479B-8935-AEC46303B9E5} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Toolbars\Internet Explorer\SkypeIEPlugin.dll
O11 - Options group: [ACCELERATED_GRAPHICS] Accelerated graphics
O18 - Protocol: skype4com - {FFC8B962-9B40-4DFF-9458-1830C7DD7F5D} - C:\PROGRA~2\COMMON~1\Skype\SKYPE4~1.DLL
O18 - Protocol: skypec2c - {91774881-D725-4E58-B298-07617B9B86A8} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Toolbars\Internet Explorer\SkypeIEPlugin.dll
O18 - Protocol: viprotocol - {B658800C-F66E-4EF3-AB85-6C0C227862A9} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\AVG Secure Search\ViProtocolInstaller\18.1.9\ViProtocol.dll (file missing)
O23 - Service: Adobe Acrobat Update Service (AdobeARMservice) - Adobe Systems Incorporated - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\ARM\1.0\armsvc.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\Alg.exe,-112 (ALG) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\alg.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Apple MMele Device Service - Apple Inc. - C:\Program Files\Common Files\Apple\MMele Device Support\AppleMMeleDeviceService.exe
O23 - Service: AVG Service (avgsvc) - AVG Technologies CZ, s.r.o. - C:\Program Files (x86)\AVG\Framework\Common\avgsvca.exe
O23 - Service: Bonjour Service - Apple Inc. - C:\Program Files\Bonjour\mDNSResponder.exe
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Content Protection HECI Service (cphs) - Intel Corporation - C:\Windows\SysWow64\IntelCpHeciSvc.exe
O23 - Service: Dropbox Update Service (dbupdate) (dbupdate) - Dropbox, Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Dropbox\Update\DropboxUpdate.exe
O23 - Service: Dropbox Update Service (dbupdatem) (dbupdatem) - Dropbox, Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Dropbox\Update\DropboxUpdate.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\efssvc.dll,-100 (EFS) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\fxsresm.dll,-118 (Fax) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\fxssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: NVIDIA GeForce Experience Service (GfExperienceService) - NVIDIA Corporation - C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\GeForce Experience Service\GfExperienceService.exe
O23 - Service: Google Update Service (gupdate) (gupdate) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Update\GoogleUpdate.exe
O23 - Service: Google Update Service (gupdatem) (gupdatem) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Update\GoogleUpdate.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\ieetwcollectorres.dll,-1000 (IEEtwCollectorService) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\IEEtwCollector.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: iPod Service - Apple Inc. - C:\Program Files\iPod\bin\iPodService.exe
O23 - Service: @keyiso.dll,-100 (KeyIso) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @comres.dll,-2797 (MSDTC) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\msdtc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\System32\netlogon.dll,-102 (Netlogon) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Network Service (NvNetworkService) - NVIDIA Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\NVIDIA Corporation\NetService\NvNetworkService.exe
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Streamer Network Service (NvStreamNetworkSvc) - NVIDIA Corporation - C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\NvStreamSrv\NvStreamNetworkService.exe
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Streamer Service (NvStreamSvc) - NVIDIA Corporation - C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\NvStreamSrv\NvStreamService.exe
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Display Driver Service (nvsvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\nvvsvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Origin Client Service - Electronic Arts - C:\Program Files (x86)\Origin\OriginClientService.exe
O23 - Service: PnkBstrA - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\PnkBstrA.exe
O23 - Service: Rapport Management Service (RapportMgmtService) - IBM Corp. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Trusteer\Rapport\bin\RapportMgmtService.exe
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\Locator.exe,-2 (RpcLocator) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\locator.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Realtek Audio Service (RtkAudioService) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files\Realtek\Audio\HDA\RtkAudioService64.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\samsrv.dll,-1 (SamSs) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: ShadowExplorer Service (sesvc) - www.shadowexplorer.com - C:\Program Files (x86)\ShadowExplorer\sesvc.exe
O23 - Service: Skype Updater (SkypeUpdate) - Skype Technologies - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Updater\Updater.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\snmptrap.exe,-3 (SNMPTRAP) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\snmptrap.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\spoolsv.exe,-1 (Spooler) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\spoolsv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\sppsvc.exe,-101 (sppsvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\sppsvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Steam Client Service - Valve Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Steam\SteamService.exe
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Stereoscopic 3D Driver Service (Stereo Service) - NVIDIA Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\NVIDIA Corporation\3D Vision\nvSCPAPISvr.exe
O23 - Service: Torch Crash Handler (TorchCrashHandler) - TorchMedia Inc. - C:\Users\Me\AppData\Local\Torch\Update\TorchCrashHandler.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\ui0detect.exe,-101 (UI0Detect) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\UI0Detect.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\vaultsvc.dll,-1003 (VaultSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\vds.exe,-100 (vds) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\vds.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\vssvc.exe,-102 (VSS) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\vssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: vToolbarUpdater40.3.5 - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\AVG Secure Search\vToolbarUpdater\40.3.5\ToolbarUpdater.exe
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\wbengine.exe,-104 (wbengine) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbengine.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%ProgramFiles%\Windows Defender\MpAsDesc.dll,-320 (WdNisSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Defender\NisSrv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%ProgramFiles%\Windows Defender\MpAsDesc.dll,-310 (WinDefend) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Defender\MsMpEng.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%Systemroot%\system32\wbem\wmiapsrv.exe,-110 (wmiApSrv) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbem\WmiApSrv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%PROGRAMFILES%\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe,-101 (WMPNetworkSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: WtuSystemSupport - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\AVG Web TuneUp\WtuSystemSupport.exe

--
End of file - 13200 bytes

As for the Malware bytes log I see a lot of Pup.optional. stuff
 
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