We do have playoffs. They're called the Champions League, the Capital One Cup, the FA Cup, etc.
Why is relegation/promotion not used in American sports?
- Thread starter ICKE
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Liverpool got relegated, promoted, then won the league in three consecutive seasons once, Nottingham Forest did promotion, win league, win Champions League (both way back though). Manchester City and Atletico Madrid both won their leagues last season and have spent time in their respective second divisions within the last 15 years, BVB are doing the opposite and look likely to get relegated this season after a string of seasons where they finished 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd in Germany, Southampton got promoted 2 consecutive seasons a few years back and are now CL challengers in England...
If we're going to go that far down the ladder, there are plenty of city softball teams or semi-professional baseball clubs or local touch football clubs which could fit the same description.
The minor league baseball teams in the US aren't run for money, either.
That's against UEFA rules.
Also, it's one of my goals in life to visit a lower-league game in England. Football in its "purest" form if you like. What's the highest level where terraces with standing places are still allowed in England? Maybe it's just my German perspective (where they are some sort of holy grail, at least for organised fans), but for me, football is best watched being stuffed into a small standing area from where you can only see half the pitch. Or at least sometimes it is
You're allowed them up to League One. If you get promoted to the Championship you're meant to permanently phase them out within 3/5 years, I think. Brentford just got promoted to the Championship last season and are the only club in the top 2 divisions with terraces, they're currently pushing for promotion to the Premier League as well, which would be interesting..
This is probably true, you can't really compare Super Bowl to European Cup Finals for example. The Americans really know how to create a show and I absolutely loved it. Even teams like Real Madrid or Barcelona do not really offer additional activities or entertainment besides the game. It's all about soccer itself.
CheDominik
Member
So glad it was still relevant when we won it in 1988 and I had the opportunity to be there. One of the most improbable comebacks in finals' history.
Stereogatari
Banned
Is it? I could have sworn it was up to the associations to distribute the places as they see fit. That's how some countries have had play offs and such to determine European places.
The CL didn't devalue the UEFA Cup. It was the addition of the group stage to the format. As a straight knockout competition the UEFA Cup wasn't looked at as boringly as it is these days.
What I don't get is why the NFL is just a sixteen game season plus the play-offs/Super Bowl. It lasts about 3 months of the year. Surely if it's that popular they could have a longer season where all 32 teams play each other?
You could structure it like the Rugby Premiership over here. All teams play each other, then the top four go into a play off, with 1st playing 4th and 2nd playing 3rd. Then you get the final, which delivers the champion.
You could structure it like the Rugby Premiership over here. All teams play each other, then the top four go into a play off, with 1st playing 4th and 2nd playing 3rd. Then you get the final, which delivers the champion.
Just look at how many injuries there are in the NFL by the end of the year. The short season is what makes it so awesome. Every part of every game is incredibly significant in the overall picture. It means the stakes are incredibly high for every single game.
Looking at the intensity of the game and amount of injuries just now, I doubt many of the players would survive a full season of 8 months. They might give teams longer breaks and spread out the season that way?
The players can barely hold up playing as many games as there is now. That would just add to the concussion problems plaguing the sport.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
That's cuz NHL, NBA, MLS, and NFL only play in one tournament. Some football teams, especially the Premier league, can be playing 5 tournaments simultaneously.
Delta Assault
Member
Really makes me wonder why they even have a Pro Bowl. Seems way too risky compared to All Star games in other sports.
To me, the game is pretty flawed then. No sport should put its players in that much danger of concussion that they can't even get through much more than 16 games. I guess you could compare it to boxing in terms of the risk of injury, but that's a different sort of thing entirely. It's combat, not a ball game.
Sure, you might say it might be part of the excitement of it, and changing it to be safer would ruin it.
I guess that's the difference. American Football is an event. Football/Soccer is more like a way of life. You get the big knockout tournaments, but most of the fun comes from following your team week in, week out over the course of 9 months.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Because American sports are, like most things there, 100% about the money.
LyleLanley
Banned
LOL
The Pro Bowl does not even resemble a real game, and given that nobody gives a shit, there's been serious talk about scrapping the game and simply having honorary rosters.
At this point, the only reason players even bother going is that they get a free trip to Hawaii, as the NFL learned when they tried moving it around.
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
Yep. Now, the size of the crowds can seriously vary in HS and college games for similar
reasons (sport being played, size of school, history of school at said sport, team being played, etc.) but in general, there is a general pride and love for sports teams a school's alumni, students, and locals, even really small high schools in rural America. Using the NCAA for example, there's still a passion for the teams at smaller schools, but the drop off is huge when you start to drop from say DI-A schools like Nebraska or Alabama (90-100k) to, say, DII schools like my alma mater (maybe a thousand people? Maybe double/triple that for the big rivalry game?). Heck, even comparing the schools in the 'Power Five' conferences in the DI-A to the 'Mid-major' conferences results in a drastic reduction in crowd size and passion (but still in the 10k+ area at the smallest I'd hazard).
Now, if the player you're talking about was playing at a big DI school for soccer here, he'd probably be playing in front of an average of 5.5k per game at most (UC Santa Barbara).
Right, for several reasons including the required amateur status of collegiate teams (lol), the fact that the teams are tied to the universities/colleges, and that new teams entering the NFL have specific start-up rules as expansion teams.
On the question of quality, it wouldn't even compare. As bad as teams like the Raiders, Bucs, and Titans may appear right now when playing against other NFL teams, they're still each made up of (including practice squads) 61 of the quote-unquote 'best' nearly 2000 players in football (who would all probably have a year to almost five years of experience playing at the highest level of competition that the college kids don't). The best of the college teams might be able to manage a win in an exhibition game against the bottom of the NFL barrel, but no way they'd be competitive as a NFL team right away.
But we're really almost comparing apples to oranges just based on the nature of the organizations that holds the reigns of the different teams: corporate vs. the schools.
They only play once a week and the game is still murder on players' bodies. We'd never make it through a whole season and then be ready to go again to start the next one.
It's not necessarily concussions (though that is a big hot button issue atm), but sprains, breaks, strains, etc. and just the general physical tole the game dishes out. I'm not saying soccer or basketball or whatever aren't contact or injury free, of course, but the level of punishment in American football is just a lot more. A good comparison might be to how often Rugby teams play (but to that, I'd have to step back and let someone else comment on the frequency of profession rugby play).
Football here is a way of life too, don't get mistaken. Fans follow stuff year round, even in the off-season.
Shake Appeal
Member
Socialized American sports are too big to fail. Thanks, Obama.
The Albatross
Member
Most of this is for player longevity. There is an interest in extending the season to 2 more games, but that has a lot of player opposition because it means more injuries and likely shorter careers.
But, I personally like the length of the NFL season. I think that the NBA and MLB in particular would be improved by shorter seasons that don't drag out as long. In MLB I can sort of understand it because the season is "a marathon" with 162 games, and the value of a player is how well they can play given 4 or 5 games in a week for 6 months, but in the NBA and NHL I wouldn't mind shorter seasons (although It hink the NHL is more like the MLB in this regard, also in that it has a deep farm system).
There is a novelty to the NFL season with teams not playing each other that builds up hype for an eventual matchup. Plus, the schedules are rotated in a way with enough tinkering that there's always key matchups a year between inter-divisional opponents. The Patriots seemingly always play the Colts or Broncos every year, and it's partially designed to rotate this way (with top teams in their divisions playing each other per the rules of the schedule), but it's a lot of build up. There are always some special matchups each year that add to the hype because these teams don't necessarily play every year. The Patriots will be travelling to Dallas next year to face the Cowboys and assuming the Cowboys are as competitive next year as they were this year, that will be a huge matchup... I think I'm going to try to get tickets and go to Texas for the week... Austin, San Antonio, and Dallas, fly back on Monday or Tuesday after the game.
The 16 game schedule also makes just about every game important. I find it ridiculous that the Celtics started like 5 - 20 this year and today, just about the midpoint of the season, they're 2 spots out of the playoffs at 17-30... I think based on their performance for the last 2 months if you extrapolate that out to the next 2 months, then they'll be a playoff team with the 7th or 8th seed. It just seems crazy to me. In the NFL it's nearly impossible that if you stink it up the first 3 months of the season, that you'll make the playoffs. There are about 2 exceptions to this rule, the 2014 Carolina Panthers and the 2012 Seattle Seahawks, both teams who made the playoffs only because every other team in their conference absolutely stunk. And even those 2012 Seahawks were still competitive, they beat a number of playoff teams that year including the Patriots.
timetokill
Banned
The NFL (and college football) is too grueling and demanding on player's bodies for them to play that often.
MLS teams partcipate in the Concacaf Champions League and the US teams participate in the Lamar Hunt US Open Cup.
Is US Football that much more dangerous than rugby?
Yeah, a salary cap would be great. Football (/soccer) became really much more boring (at high level) in recent years, threw the influx of insane amount of money, which basically just consolidates the teams that play on top (I'll make a bet: Bayern, Chelsea and Real Madrdid will be in CL half finals. What a suspense...)
Just look at the Bundesliga: up to a few years ago, almost every team had a chance to win. Bayern were still the most succesfull, but they only won like a third of the championships, and more importantly, more than half of the time, the championwas decided on the very last matchday of the seaon.
Now the only competition remaining in the bundesliga is for the CL/EL places, which sure is pretty intersting, but...
One thing I like in Europe though is the multiple, parrallel running competitions, and the fact they run almost all year. What to NFL fans do till this fall?
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
Don't know the figures on that.
The NFL combine is only a few weeks away. Draft talk eats up the rest of the spring as teams get ready for the draft. Then rookie mini-camp and OTAs. Pre-season and then the regular season. Assuming you don't watch hockey, basketball or baseball.
If you do, then you have college basketball conference tournaments, March Madness, NBA/NHL playoff races and then the actual playoffs. Baseball starts on April 5th. So yeah, there is plenty to watch for the sports fanatic in the US.
P.S. Today was national signing day for college football recruits.
Yeah true, the US do have more than one extremely popular sports.
Delusibeta
Banned
The actual reason is that it's a side effect of the franchising system, whereby the number of teams in the top division of each sport is tightly controlled. There isn't enough major teams to get a promotion/demotion system going.
For the most part, yeah. Sometimes teams move cities. Once in a blue moon the leagues will expand. However, in the past 40 years expansion teams have been brand new teams and not teams from outside the league being brought in.
The last time the NFL expanded was in 2002, when they added the Houston Texans.
timetokill
Banned
TheWarrior
Banned
Yes the teams are always the same. The sports are market and money driven. The leagues, with the exception of baseball are all created to have parity with a salary cap, draft system, and free agency. A last place team through good management can turn things around in the very next year, and the first place team can find themselves in last place. The worst teams are provided some advantages when it comes to drafting new players from college.
Baseball is run a little different. Each team has a minor league system, which equates to the lower leagues in English football, but instead of teams being moved up to the major leagues, its the best players who are pruned from these teams and sent up to the major league club. Players that don't perform are sent to the lower level teams. There is also no salary cap in baseball.
Well, rugby player also go pretty hard into confrontations and scrums (and for the most part all weight in the 100-120kg). And with almost no pause compared to US Football.
And they don't even wear helms.
But I guess they aren't (usually, even thoug it can happen) at full speed like in US Football.
Actually, I'm not sure it is comparable. That kind of sounds like each Baseball team has a B team which compete in a minor league system?
If that is what you mean, it is the same in English football. That however is independent of the lower leagues.
Squirrel Killer
Member
They do, it's called the FA Cup, it just runs concurrent with the season and they let all the shit teams in too. Don't tell that to a Brit though because "playoffs" are shite but "knockout competitions" are amazing.
The Iowa Cubs, to use an example mentioned earlier in this thread, have no fucking business playing in MLB. They don't have the infrastructure, players, or fan support to sustain a level of play that would be remotely entertaining to watch. They'd be worse than watching the Astros or the Marlins in one of their tank seasons. All it would do is cripple the organization with higher travel costs, infrastructure upgrades, and player salaries (after all, they play in the big leagues now.)
Pro/reg advocacy is based on the lie that a gang of lads can form a pub league team and make it's way up to the top flight. Even if it didn't take them 12-15 years to make it there (assuming promotions every single season,) the team roster would have a complete turnover 2-3 times at least just to handle the difference in level of play.
I should add actually, it has changed in recent years. There used to be what was called a 'reserve' league.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Reserve_League
That ended in 2012 though and was replaced by the Professional Development League.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Development_League#PDL_1
TheWarrior
Banned
I'm not as familiar with football, but baseball has a major league club and then typically 3 minor league clubs, ranging from AAA, AA, A league. The major league team drafts and signs players to these lower level leagues. As players improve they move through the league system, some may be ready for AAA right away, but others may start in AA. With English football, its the teams that get relegated to the lower level leagues or higher level leagues depending on how they perform.
It's only similar in that there are lower leagues set up in baseball.
With Hockey, Basketball and American Football, the majority of players are ready out of college to play. Hockey has the AHL and Basketball has the D-League, but I think its rare for players to move up and down these leagues because of the college system already doing a good job of separating the best players.
It sounds like the old reserve team system though. Basically youngsters moving up the ranks, first team players not quite cutting it, or players coming back from injury will play in the reserve team. It sounds more like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_team
crimzonflame
Member
If football players didnt wear protective gear they would die on the field.
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
Not only do they almost all have B teams (called AAA), they also have C teams (AA), D teams (A-Advanced, Low-A, A-Short Season), and F teams (Rookie)
TheWarrior
Banned
I know this rugby/nfl thing is usually framed as a toughness competition but it doesn't have to be thought of that way. If the question is if NFL teams would have serious injury problems with a longer schedule the answer is yes. Both for short and long term injuries. If you followed a team for a season you'd see why.
Actually, reading up on it, it seems like a mixture of both. A lot of Minor League baseball teams are independent clubs, it's just that they're in some way affiliated with Major League clubs. Reserve teams in Soccer, are basically the B team of a soccer club. They do however seem to exist for a similar purpose. That being to help develop young players.
Lower leagues in England on the other hand exist simply because there are only a limited number of teams that can make the Premier League and many other teams just don't cut it. Pretty much every town and city has a team, and there needs to be a league of some sort to accommodate them all.
Lower leagues in England on the other hand exist simply because there are only a limited number of teams that can make the Premier League and many other teams just don't cut it. Pretty much every town and city has a team, and there needs to be a league of some sort to accommodate them all.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
The pads and helmets actually make it worse.
Yeah you get some protection but it also gives others alot of plastic and metal to hit you with in return.
Also players take alot more risks thinking they have that protection.
Then the Iowa Cubs have to grow and adapt if they'd want to stick around. This is the MLB we're talking about. Nobody in the league sustains a level of play that would be "entertaining to watch" over the entire course of their ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY TWO game season.
Shit, the tank-season Astros and Marlins have no business in the MLB. The fear of regulation could force them to actually spend money on their product. If an owner of a minor league club in Sacramento, New Orleans, Charlotte, wherever wants to shell out the cash for players, facilities, etc. then why the hell shouldn't that team replace one that is content with putting out a hopeless loser as long as that sweet sweet MLB money keeps rolling in?
It'd obviously never happen, I just think it's an interesting way to inject some excitement into a sport that could definitely use some.
I agree with you that relegation brings some excitement to the table. However, under the current sports business structure in the US it is not feasible. Most franchises would fail if they were relegated. The cost of running a team is so astronomical that the lack of guaranteed TV money and ad revenue would bankrupt these teams. The Jaguars are struggling to survive as an NFL team let alone if they were relegated.
Furthermore, one only needs to look at college sports (especially football) to get an idea of what it costs to compete. The majority of D1 football programs lose money each year.
They also actually, you know, tackle.
American Football "tackles" are more like "run into this guy as hard and as fast as you can. Use the full force of your body to lay him out"
They never try to drag someone down, but lay him out or trip him up.
Stereogatari
Banned
I'm not an expert in either sport, but it seems that some of the hits allowed in American Football would be illegal in Rugby?
This still exists, it's just been re-branded as U21s. Though IIRC in the old reserve leagues benched players used to play more often.
Yes. The players hit each other much, much harder and more violently.
Bloody hell.
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