VGEsoterica
Member
Yes CRTs are huge still
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Why you need a MiSTer FPGA in 2023; and who has one?
- Thread starter VGEsoterica
- Start date
alphachino
Member
By the way... I forgot to mention that I love your videos and watch them all the time. Keep up the great work! You're a real asset to the community.
Last night I tried out my Nreal Air AR glasses with MiSTer and it was a hoot! The awesome thing is that the display basically conforms to whatever aspect ratio the game is... without borders... it's really great. Of course the latency is also fantastic due to it being microOLED and the colours are sumptuous! The only issue I had was the HDMI-to-USB-C DP Alt-mode adapter doesn't send audio to the Nreal's so I had to wear a separate pair of headphones which dampens the experience somewhat. I hope a solution will come along that can provide video + audio to the Nreals, but so far I haven't come across an adapter that can do this over HDMI.
It might seem totally silly to use AR glasses with the MiSTer, I actually haven't seen reports of anyone else doing so... but I really love it. I've tested the Nreals with everything... PS5, Steam Deck etc., but with the MiSTer it's the most special IMO. I think it's the juxtaposition of comparatively low-tech retro games and cutting-edge display technology in a package that I can easily transport anywhere, at the drop of a hat. I highly recommend giving AR glasses a shot if you get the chance.
socksfelloff
Member
Mister is incredible! I really enjoy it for the things I'll never own like arcade boards and Japanese computers.
My dream for FPGA has always been software emulator features with hardware accuracy so the PSX and GBA cores are standouts for me
My dream for FPGA has always been software emulator features with hardware accuracy so the PSX and GBA cores are standouts for me
I have 2. One is in the original box the other one uses the ironclad plus motherboard extension Can be found here
rabbity-thing
Member
I love the idea of a Mister, but since having a kid, my focus has turned to retro gaming boxes that are more accessible for her. The last thing I want to do is go to a bunch of forums to try and find out how to correct whatever Mister settings she mistakenly altered while lost in menus. For retro games, OG hardware still has the edge in user-friendliness. The only retro stuff I've seen that can compare to that simplicity are the mini-consoles that were so popular a few years ago. Really, there's something to be said about a system she can turn on and navigate all by herself that doesn't need profiles and updates and all that mess.
The tinkerer in me may look into Mister some day, but for now, it's a non-starter.
The tinkerer in me may look into Mister some day, but for now, it's a non-starter.
Krathoon
Gold Member
Yeah. I built 2 as well. One has a clear case and the other has a green acid case. I need to install the software on the clear one.
Mainly, it have been using the green one.
StereoVsn
Member
Man, how many kidneys will this be worth?
EIZO Releases 21.3-inch Square Monitor for Long-Term Supply to Back Offices and Control Rooms
EIZO Corporation (TSE: 6737) today announced the release of the FlexScan S2134 - a 21.3-inch square monitor with a 1600 x 1200 native resolution for back offices and control rooms. The S2134 is the successor to the 21.3-inch square monitor S2133 with brightness of 500 cd/m², up from 420 cd/m²...www.techpowerup.com
EIZO is releasing a brand new 21.3" 4:3 1600x1200 monitor with vga, dvi and displayport connections.
brightness 500 cd/m²
contrast 1800:1
StereoVsn
Member
Ok, that's an awesome idea. I actually have nreal (mostly for steam deck), but haven't tried it with emulation or MiSTer!
I run a pretty basic setup, MiSTer to Retrotink to my OLED. It works pretty great.
I do kind I want to get a decent 4x3 LCD monitor like the above mentioned Dells though.
beatdowniidx
Member
Its a dell e196fpb
farmerboy
Member
alphachino
Member
If you try it with the Nreals, make sure you turn on integer scaling (mode 1), and don't use the 5x vertical crop. the 5x vertical crop gives you a bigger image but there is a problem where the top 2/3 rows of pixels are stuck/distorted. It might be just on my nreals that exhibit this problem, so YMMV.
Pasta la Vista
Member
I have been considering it. I still own several generations of consoles and a couple CRTs and VGA. I also have a Frammeister and scart cables for consoles that support it.
StereoVsn
Member
Ok, that's a good tip, will note it!
As someone who has a NES, Genesis, SuperNES, Playstation, GBA, GBC, GameGear, and many retro PCs along with flash carts and HD Retrovision cables for everything. OSSC, GBS-C, etc.
You won't be disappointed. I was debating getting a PCE Duo R, thankfully MiSTer took off before I pulled the trigger and does that perfectly for less than the cost of the console with refurbishing. Then it started doing NeoGeo and CPS1/2 and the rest is history.
I have two in my office I have it connected to 1440p monitors I also use with my desktop. One is horizontal, one is TATE. The perfect 6x scaling of 240p content with CRT filters is better than using the scalers. The image is digital into the scaling rather than D/A to A/D to the scaler. And the does everything the $325 Retrotink 5x does on the consoles MiSTer plays.
We'll see just how far the MiSTer ends up going as both CPS3 and N64 will be surprises if they end up fully working. And that gen is right about when I prefer software emulators to render at higher resolutions along with texture packs and the like. It's also when consoles all had framebuffers rather than writing directly to your CRT, so latency stop mattering as much.
Omnipunctual Godot
Gold Member
Also, light gun games will only work on CRTs IIRC.
I'm interested in the MiSTer, but analogue output is not an option for my setup. I have an Analogue Pocket and dock on the way. If Sega CD and 32X cores get added for the Pocket, that's probably enough for me.
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That's true, but MiSTer supports Wiimotes or flat panel compatible light guns like the PS3 Time Crisis 3 gun with the various cores.
You only need analog video to a CRT for the original guns to work.
Krathoon
Gold Member
Yeah. There are a workarounds to get lightguns to work.
The easiest is the Wiimote.
I may mess with that tomorrow.
Here is a tutorial.
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Pasta la Vista
Member
Luckily I "completed" my collection 5 years ago (got everything I actually wanted to play) for PCE/Duo. I have a modded Duo RX that plays US games.
the_master
Member
I love it.
I have 2 actually and I hope they keep making cores for more consoles, arcades and computers.
I would also love to see a more powerful version that could run dreamcast ps2, gc and xbox, even a 360
I have 2 actually and I hope they keep making cores for more consoles, arcades and computers.
I would also love to see a more powerful version that could run dreamcast ps2, gc and xbox, even a 360
cartman414
Member
Input lag free controls. Though it's said that can be "corrected".
Setsuna Mudou
Member
I was watching some of the videos from the OP and I'm a bit surprised there are some issues still running some of the games, looks like a work in progress still.
I'm a bit confused as to why the games running in software emulation aren't just running through this method.
I probably need the beginners guide to this sort of emulation...
cartman414
Member
Hope they don't mind binding inputs at the Arris Dome.
TastyPastry
Member
hope it's not a dumb question but can a normal person or even a hardcore snes fan detect a difference between emulating super mario world on snes9x vs mister. how about higan vs mister?
It's down to the individual person, games, etc.
Some fighting game tournaments have started using MiSTers rather than exclusively using arcade boards. And the Shump community has been very happy with the migration as well. Software emulators were available for a long time but considered not perfect. MiSTer itself is still emulation but at a hardware level. You don't have an OS swapping processes in and out causing micro lag. If you use analog out along with SNAC input you are directly interfacing only with the FPGA and it should be as if it were original hardware. Otherwise, there is a small Linux OS that runs on the ARM part of the DE10-Nano where the image scaler and USB input is handled. The scaler works like a frame buffer and is made to only have a single frame of lag, USB on the other hand with a quality controller can be pooled 1,000 times a second, and those frame counting pros are fine with reaction time.
Jumping back to hardware emulation, emulation itself isn't bad. Remember how the PS2 played PSX games? While Sony had the PSX's cpu as part of its sound hardware, but the graphics side of things was emulated at a hardware level which is why you had graphics options like additional filtering. In the end, any emulator or FPGA core is just software written by someone that could contain bugs. But what is accurate? In original game consoles the resisters, capacitors, clock chips, etc have tolerances of several percent. Meaning a piece could be something like -5% to 5% slower or faster than it's specced for. I've read stories about a speed runner having a "golden" console where they were able to pull off some trick. It turns out the clock speed of the CPU was running at the high end of the tolerance threshold. But is that correct or wrong? It's original hardware that wasn't modified.
Software can be written to high levels of accuracy. Higan is a great example. But it's still running under an OS it doesn't have control over. An OS's scheduler will swap processes in and out which takes time. It's millionths of a second so you'd never see it with the naked eye. But sometimes you can feel it. With an FPGA you write code that defines a processor, the FPGA reconfigures itself and one the code is running, nothing preempts it. You can get all the way down to adjusting individual timings, and when things run per each clock cycle, they all execute at once rather than in software where you'd first run the logic for one chip, then handle the next, etc.
But one of the biggest recommendations I heard for the MiSTer was a user talking about putting one in an arcade cabinet that was previously running a Raspberry Pi. His wife fired up Ms Pacman on it, played a minute or so and said (I'm paraphasing), "Compared to that other thing, this just feels right".
Retro_Stew
Member
Yes ! The results are really good.
Using it on my arcade cabinet with a CRT screen with a raspberry 4.
You can also have Kodi, with a low res Youtube, etc.
Lightgun support is also coming soon.
nkarafo
Member
That's because the Raspberry Pi is the bottom barrel of software emulation. It's even below smartphones. It does not represent the quality of software emulation at all. Just the cheapest, crappiest way to emulate something. Comparing that to FPGA will sure make the latter seem godly in comparison. This is exactly what every single Youtuber does when they review/show off FPGAs.
Now if your wife played Ms Pacman in one of my cabinets, that run on a mini PC using a properly configured RetroArch setup + accuracy based cores only + GPU sync, etc, i'm sure she would say the same thing. And that's not even as good as my main setup where i use a VRR screen + RetroArch's freesync option, which reduces lag even further and at the same time runs all arcade games at their native frame rate without screen tearing or stutters.
I'm not even going to mention other stuff like Runahead or Preemptive frames that can reduce the native input lag in the cores that support it. I don't use that very often but when i do, input lag gets lower than both FPGA or the real hardware. Even if i only shave a single frame because i'm already getting very low lag in my setups by default.
Does FPGA support freesync/VRR anyway? That's the only way for me to play arcade games now.
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alphachino
Member
I haven't messed with the VRR of MiSTer personally but there are settings for it in the .ini...
alphachino
Member
I've also got two DE10-Nano. 1 in my main setup with Sony BVM + Dell 2007FPb for Tate/Donkey Kong.
The second one was intended for my Aero City Jamma cab, but I've yet to pull the trigger on the MiSTerCade. I'm also interested in one of those mini-ITX conversion board and throwing it inside a tiny pc case.
My ideal MiSTer product right now however would be a minimal premium-quality case with integrated rechargeable battery designed for portable use paired with Nreal glasses. Perhaps this'll be what the 3rd de10-nano will be used for.
It wasn't my wife. And how is the Raspberry Pi any worse than running on any other system? Software is software, compile and use the more accurate cores. You can use MT32-Pi which accurately reproduces a now very expensive MT32 and can get higher quality audio than the original hardware. And people are even putting Pi Nanos on ISA cards and doing very strict timing-based emulation of audio cards. Things like run ahead just forcefully emulate multiple copies trying to cut down on input lag. It's fine for "more power" throwing 3Ghz 100W+ chips to almost do what a <100Mhz chip at 10W is doing. I also fail to see how it's faster than real hardware on old systems as there isn't a buffer, instead, the gameplay loop is just looking for input and firing off. Even with a game that has input lag you either are or aren't pressing an input.
The MiSTer can output at the original off-spec refresh of the various cores via either analog or digital over HDMI. It's not strictly FreeSync or VRR but many monitors support it. TVs are more hit or miss.
But I do see you posting negatively on every MiSTer post. We get it, you have the bestest setup ever and are smarter than all of us with our dumb opinions on FPGA. I hereby grant you the ability to ignore any MiSTer thread and live in your blissful world of ignorance.
nkarafo
Member
It's worse because there is not enough processing power to run the better cores. And they also don't have the power to use stuff like GPU sync to improve input lag in anything but the lightest/performance based cores.
BSNES/Higan? Mednafen Saturn/PSX? Mupen64plus Next + Parallel RDP? Not sure if these solutions are even available for Pi. Can it even run current MAME full speed or you are forced to use obsolete crap like MAME 2003?
Again, this is not representative of software emulation. Only the bottom barrel of software emulation.
You seem very upset for some reason. Did i just make your expensive FPGA purchase less valuable or something by telling you software emulation can be just as good or better? You know, software emulation being better than you thought doesn't make your Mister any less good, right?
I never actually posted anything negative about Mister so i'm not sure what you are talking about. Clearing up misinformation or half truths about software emulation isn't a jab against it either.
But anyway, when the N64 Mister core is out and every user parrots how the Mario Kart jumbotron screen is "finally emulated for the first time", someone has to tell them they are wrong.
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cartman414
Member
World of difference between audio cards and consoles/graphics cards. Much less complex to the point where they have been replicated. Even for old 3d graphics cards it'll be ages before many of them can be run through emulation.
I see that wasn't you arguing against the MiSTer before in this thread, oh wait it was. People mention how accurate it is and all you post is "doubt" because you don't have an argument. Then you say software is magically better than original hardware?
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/mist...damn-it-everyone-should-just-buy-one.1639806/
It's funny a NeoGeo fan downplays FPGA, when the MiSTer core was created by someone who wanted to be able to take those designs to replace dead chips in real NeoGeo to keep them going.
Do you mean physically simulating the card as a drop-in replacement like the sound cards I mentioned, or just running in a software emulator? If the latter there are emulated early 3D arcade games that used Voodoo and other PC 3D chips that run on a Pi. You can emulate Dreamcast and PSP on a Pi which are early 2000s PC 3D in terms of power.
The add-ons have never been cheaper. It's just the DE10-Nano that's had its price increased. It was $130 -> $150 -> $180 -> to the current $230.
FPGAs as a whole are still in a global short supply, and the DE10-Nano is constantly sold out. Intel likely sees no reason to subsidize the board anymore. The FPGA that's being used, use to cost over $300 by itself yet the dev board cost $130. Now the FPGA is a little over $200 so the board is probably being sold at cost along with the standard retail markup.
nkarafo
Member
Except i don't doubt FPGA cores are accurate, i doubt FPGA is the only way to accuracy or that they are more accurate than the most accurate software emulators.
Oh and my "doubt" post was a reply to a user who claimed he can "tell the difference playing on og hardware compared to anything else anytime of the day". He meant he can tell the difference between FPGA vs Og hardware by just playing. He was the one doubting their accuracy and i was defending it, lol. Come on man.
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cartman414
Member
That, and making new replica cards. Video cards are magnitudes more complex, and thus need more power to emulate/simulate accurately. That, and the latency of the Pi is a complete non-issue with the MT-32, which already had it to begin with as part of its external nature. The Pi 3 is just fast enough to accurately emulate the 32 on its own. On high end pcs? At least as far as emulation progress goes, we're only up to Voodoo 3, and that's just using HLE calls.
TastyPastry
Member
you seem like you really know what you're talking about. i'm planning on building my ultimate retro setup and i don't even know where to start because there are so many options with mister, the different emulators and of course crt vs oled because speed accuracy is one thing but i also want the games to look like they were intended to. only thing i can confidently say i will probably not bother with is original hardware because that seems like an even bigger rabbit hole you could fall into and i don't want to end up looking for ancient cartridges for crazy prices on ebay. i'm only interested in 16-Bit stuff like SNES/MD/90s Arcade and gamecube (dolphin on pc seems like the obvious answer for that though). have you posted your entire setup somewhere on this site? i also can't find any good youtube videos that compare fpga to software emulation and crt to oled so any help would be appreciated
VGEsoterica
Member
The reality is there is no one “perfect” setup
NeverYouMind
Member
I have honestly become so enchanted with modern emulation mechanics like rewind and on-the-fly post-process image enhancement that I don't want to replicate the original experience.
If this FPGA thing was better supplied and supported I could see myself replacing my old gaming hardware. However, it is too expensive for a casual hobbyist and lacks a genuine guarantee of preservation.
If this FPGA thing was better supplied and supported I could see myself replacing my old gaming hardware. However, it is too expensive for a casual hobbyist and lacks a genuine guarantee of preservation.
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nkarafo
Member
Youtube is not a good source for emulation. Better find a good forum or a subreddit such as r/emulation.
Not sure what's best for you though. If you want to build a big setup with many emulators, etc, prepare for a lot of work, research and trial and error (depends on your OCD and how perfect you need it to be). There are no tutorials that will drive you through the whole process, each program/emulator/frontend/etc have their own tutorials, community and "cost of entry". My personal setup is a work of at least a few of years of all that. But it's pretty big (80+ systems) and i enjoy building it. If you don't enjoy that kind of work maybe it's best to look at some easier to setup projects that have some things pre-configured, such as Batocera on PC (avoid the Pi, obviously).
I would also suggest to use RetroArch as the emulator for anything other than PCSX2 and Dolphin (Pretty sure Batocera uses it for most systems as well). It has many input lag reducing options and adds VRR support for all cores. Though figuring out RetroArch is a bit of work. It's not very user friendly but it's very powerful. It allows for stuff like this:
This GameBoy shader+overlay (the one i use is modified by me a bit) was what made me consider using RetroArch, nearly 8 years ago.
FPGAs are also a very fail safe solution. It doesn't look like they require as much work as a software emulation setup and the end result will still be as close to perfect as possible. And since you only care about a certain handful of systems, this might be the best for you. However, since you also need Dolphin which means you need a PC, you might as well run all the other systems on that PC too and save the money. It's possible to use a CRT TV on a PC too but it's more bothersome. You could also use a CRT PC Monitor which will also have the reduced input lag and better motion clarity, without needing a standard TV and RetroArch has plenty of shaders for the low resolution scanlines look. But if you really want a standard CRT TV for it's physical scanlines, it might be best to get an FPGA after all, i haven't tested this scenario on my PC to recommend it.
On the other hand, FPGAs don't have as many extras and nearly as many options as any emulator, let alone RetroArch.
For the systems you mentioned, right now i can only recommend the emulators or cores to use in RetroArch:
Mega Drive/Genesis - GenesisPlusGX or Blastem. The first is only available in RetroArch but there's a standalone Blastem. Though the later doesn't support the Sega CD or special chips like the SVP, it's still the most accurate Genesis emulator.
Super NES - BSNES. There's also a standalone BSNES. That's the poster child of accurate emulation btw.
PC Engine - Mednafen PCE (not pce-fast). Mednafen is also a standalone multi emulator, if you don't want to use RetroArch.
Arcade - MAME current (avoid any MAME core with a year prefix such as MAME 2010, 2003, etc). Keep in mind that even the regular, current version is a few months out of date so if that bothers you, you can't go wrong with the standalone MAME. You can also use the FBNeo core which will allow to use some extra RetroArch options, but it supports fewer games than MAME.
Gamecube - Dolphin standalone. RetroArch also has a core but it's not very good and a couple of years out of date. Until there's a better core, the standalone is the only viable option.
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TastyPastry
Member
thanks
nkarafo
i've been looking into batocera (never heard of it before) but the more i think about it the more i think it really might be the best to do it all just on my pc like you said, it seems like bsnes really needs a strong cpu so doing it on my main pc would probably save me a lot of money i could spend on other stuff. i guess the only reason why i would do my retro gaming on a seperate system is if i use a crt tv and don't want to connect my main pc with it, but then again i'm not sure if i should even get a crt tv. you seem to me like someone who really cares about his retro games looking accurate. so my question is: do you use a crt tv for emulating 16 bit games? i know retroarch has plenty of options to emulate scanlines but i'm hearing lots of different things about how good they are in comparsion to real scanlines from a crt.
by the way i've been watching this video where the dude compares mister and software emulation
where the dude even says in terms of speed software emulation and mister are pretty much the same but there is some difference in sound quality and color... but i honetly can't hear/it or the difference is so tiny that i really don't think i care
so yeah i'm leaning more and more towards just using my main pc as my emulation machine. i forgot to mention that i also want to use pcsx2 and get me a shinden lightgun + pedal to emulate a couple lightgun games like time crisis and hotd
edit: i forgot to mention, one upside for me personally with a crt might be the 4:3 aspect ratio, because i never enjoyed black bars but i'm not sure that this might just be something i have to get used to or just use some borders
nkarafo
i've been looking into batocera (never heard of it before) but the more i think about it the more i think it really might be the best to do it all just on my pc like you said, it seems like bsnes really needs a strong cpu so doing it on my main pc would probably save me a lot of money i could spend on other stuff. i guess the only reason why i would do my retro gaming on a seperate system is if i use a crt tv and don't want to connect my main pc with it, but then again i'm not sure if i should even get a crt tv. you seem to me like someone who really cares about his retro games looking accurate. so my question is: do you use a crt tv for emulating 16 bit games? i know retroarch has plenty of options to emulate scanlines but i'm hearing lots of different things about how good they are in comparsion to real scanlines from a crt.
by the way i've been watching this video where the dude compares mister and software emulation
where the dude even says in terms of speed software emulation and mister are pretty much the same but there is some difference in sound quality and color... but i honetly can't hear/it or the difference is so tiny that i really don't think i care
so yeah i'm leaning more and more towards just using my main pc as my emulation machine. i forgot to mention that i also want to use pcsx2 and get me a shinden lightgun + pedal to emulate a couple lightgun games like time crisis and hotd
edit: i forgot to mention, one upside for me personally with a crt might be the 4:3 aspect ratio, because i never enjoyed black bars but i'm not sure that this might just be something i have to get used to or just use some borders
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nkarafo
Member
I used to have a CRT PC monitor for the motion clarity and low input lag. But it was high-res so i had to use shaders to simulate scanlines.
I don't mind shaders because they do color blending and filtering properly enough. That's what really shapes up those retro pixels nicely. IMO, there's no way to find the "correct" shader. Everyone configures them to their liking so use your own eyes as guidance. Compare the results to your CRT TV and decide when it's good enough.
Anyway, problem is my CRT Monitor died and finding another one in good condition is a pain, plus there's the issue of space. Right now i use a very fast VRR monitor that also has almost no input lag and the VRR function helps a lot with the scrolling. I do miss the CRT motion clarity though.
One of these days i'll get a proper adapter to test my setup on the old TV.
This comparison isn't good though. The author is using a performance based core, Final Burn. Not sure if he is using a Pi or PC either. Sound quality and colors can also be a case of different settings in the core options, RetroArch general options, device options/drivers, recording options, etc.
IMO, if you are going to compare FPGAs with emulators to determine accuracy, you need to make sure you use the most accurate emulator available and check the settings are all correct for such task.
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SpiceRacz
Member
I ended up snagging one of these tonight off FB Marketplace. Paid a little more than I wanted ($50), but I'm seeing them on eBay, Offerup, and Facebook for quite a bit more. The image is really impressive for an old ass Dell monitor. I need to order a power supply for the speaker and I'm all set.