Support NeoGAF

[SquiddyCracker]

Cancelling the September £199 pre-orders and/or the June £199 pre-orders wouldn't go so well PR-wise.
I highly doubt it's that big of a deal, financially speaking, as it was probably only the most hardcore of gamers who managed to snag these pre-orders the limited time they were out. They will probably fire a couple of responsible peons, honour the current pre-orders, not accept any new honours, and gamble on the ones who have benefited to purchase their games/peripherals from Amazon.

 

[The_Lump]

Thats true, as it was clearly advertised as £199.99 in June and Amazon shouldn't honour some and not honour others to be honest, because thats not fair to anyone.

But if they cancelled it immediately and sent an email explaining it was a listing error (the ones that were cancelled mostly had a despatch date of July), then they quite rightly have no obligation to honour it.

Whereas if they only just cancelled it (within the last few days) even though they still aren't under an obligation to honour it, they have been because they feel they have mislead those people for an extended period of time. They're doing it out if courtesy.

 

[Exterminieren]

Fuck's sake GAF.

Thats true, as it was clearly advertised as £199.99 in June and Amazon shouldn't honour some and not honour others to be honest, because thats not fair to anyone.

Yours were cancelled. Ours weren't. Now, as a result, it's looking like no one gets the price.

Thanks guys.

 

[Steph_E.]

Cancelling the September £199 pre-orders and/or the June £199 pre-orders wouldn't go so well PR-wise.
I highly doubt it's that big of a deal, financially speaking, as it was probably only the most hardcore of gamers who managed to snag these pre-orders the limited time they were out. They will probably fire a couple of responsible peons, honour the current pre-orders, not accept any new honours, and gamble on the ones who have benefited to purchase their games/peripherals from Amazon.

Assuming we are talking the black Wii U , each order honoured will cost Amazon £100 net profit (pre tax). Obviously, I have no idea how many orders this may affect, but say, 1000 orders were placed at the £199 price, that would cost them £100,000 straight off their bottom line. Since Amazon UK made £3m profit pre tax in 2011, that would be 3% of last years profit pre tax - that is a lot of money to lose for a cock up on the pricing of one product!

 

[thechemist]

Yours were cancelled. Ours weren't. Now, as a result, it's looking like no one gets the price.

Thanks guys.

I hope it doesnt affect your orders, it would be great if we all get them. I only just took the advice off here and chased it up on the chance I may get it.

Assuming we are talking the black Wii U , each order honoured will cost Amazon £100 net profit (pre tax). Obviously, I have no idea how many orders this may affect, but say, 1000 orders were placed at the £199 price, that would cost them £100,000 straight off their bottom line. Since Amazon UK made £3m profit pre tax in 2011, that would be 3% of last years profit pre tax - that is a lot of money to lose for a cock up on the pricing of one product!

At the moment it only looks like 20/30 of us on GAF, but if HUKD finds out then I agree it would be a big loss.

 

[warerare]

The problem Amazon have is that this is no longer a listing error, we have spoken with Customer Service who have honored a price and lowered the amount we have to pay. I don't think they have an easy way out of this one.

 

[kitsuneyo]

Let's just see what happens.

Amazon gave some of us a special discount over the phone and apologised for the inconvenience. Going back on that would not only be bad for PR, it would make them look totally incompetent.

I'm sure it's just a handful of people that called anyway.

Since Amazon UK made £3m profit pre tax in 2011, that would be 3% of last years profit pre tax - that is a lot of money to lose for a cock up on the pricing of one product!

Thankfully it doesn't work like that

 

[Steph_E.]

Let's just see what happens.

Amazon gave some of us a special discount over the phone and apologised for the inconvenience. Going back on that would not only be bad for PR, it would make them look totally incompetent.

I'm sure it's just a handful of people that called anyway.

Thankfully it doesn't work like that

What doesnt work like what?

 

[Osiris]

The problem Amazon have is that this is no longer a listing error, we have spoken with Customer Service who have honored a price and lowered the amount we have to pay. I don't think they have an easy way out of this one.

They do have an out, not a great one for PR but a legal one nonetheless.

Despite having an order confirmation, they are not bound contractually to accept the sale until dispatch, where they actually take the money, everything up to that point is reversable. (Called an "Invitation to treat")

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Assuming we are talking the black Wii U , each order honoured will cost Amazon £100 net profit (pre tax). Obviously, I have no idea how many orders this may affect, but say, 1000 orders were placed at the £199 price, that would cost them £100,000 straight off their bottom line. Since Amazon UK made £3m profit pre tax in 2011, that would be 3% of last years profit pre tax - that is a lot of money to lose for a cock up on the pricing of one product!

That really depends on how much they're buying the black Wii u at, and secondly on whether or not that set back (which might range from minor to £100,000) outweighs the periphals and games that these costumers purchase simply due to Amazon honouring the £199 deal.

 

[liger05]

So the words in the email dont really mean that much?

I’m sorry about any misunderstanding about the price of "Nintendo Wii U 32GB Premium Pack - Black".

Our prices may increase or decrease based on a number of factors.

As your order hasn’t yet dispatched, I’ve adjusted the price to reflect the current price of GBP 199.00. This is the price you’ll be charged when the order is dispatched.

What I find confusing is Amazon decided to change any of them. Surely a supervisor cant just approve such changes without getting the ok from the higher ups.

 

[The_Lump]

Assuming we are talking the black Wii U , each order honoured will cost Amazon £100 net profit (pre tax). Obviously, I have no idea how many orders this may affect, but say, 1000 orders were placed at the £199 price, that would cost them £100,000 straight off their bottom line. Since Amazon UK made £3m profit pre tax in 2011, that would be 3% of last years profit pre tax - that is a lot of money to lose for a cock up on the pricing of one product!

That's not how it works. The WiiU premium is costing amazon around 245 to buy. They are losing max roughly £50 on each console they are honouring. I'd say no more than 500 will have been effected and will be due re-price, so that's a rough estimate of £25k max (this is pittance for Amazon) Now take off the extra peripheral and software sales they've likely made as a result of this, plus the good press. They're no losing much money at all. In fact, if each of those people spend another £50** at amazon on a game/controller etc, they've already covered their losses. No way they'll go back on their word now. It's a no brainer for them.

Stop panicking GAF. Amazon cocked up, they recognised this, they have now un-cocked up.

They don't change their minds again because they think they might lose a few grand. And they look set to probably make a fair few grand anyway.


**Edit: I should taken the cost price of ganes/controllers into account. But still, they are likely to get at least a couple games and a peripheral from each of those newly happy customers - and that'll net them at least £50 profit. Point still stands

 

[Fare Godmace]

This is another mail I got:

Hello,

Following our chat, I regret to advise you that we will not be able to honour the price for this order. The reason being is that Amazon cancelled all the orders placed on June 13 as the item was incorrectly listed on the site as being 'available' when it was not supposed to be.

All orders placed on June 13 was cancelled and then our technical team re-launched the item again for pre order, but this second time was still erroneous as the item were incorrectly listed as being 199 GBP - but for customer that placed the order on this second launch, they have decided that we should honour the price of 199 GBP.

But for the 1st issue, where the item should not have been made available yet, I regret to advise that we are unable to honour the old price.

Please accept my heartfelt apologies for the disappointment this has caused you. Those customers that got honoured placed the order again after the first issue, after the orders were all cancelled, they placed the order again for 199 GBP - if you had placed the order again after June 13, then we would have honoured the price for you.

Once again, I am sorry for this.

We hope to see you again soon.

I seriously doubt those who did get the 199 GBP price last week will lose their orders.

Still, I'm pretty pissed at Amazon and I guess I'll keep only buying digital games thanks to the fantastic deals Tony gets for the US branch. If that Steven guy hadn't promised me that I just had to wait for a mail and then I'd be able to get the old price back I wouldn't even be mad, but now I absolutely feel entitled to a compensation after that fuckup.

EDIT: Yeah, unless there are like 10000 orders they have to honour, it would be a cheap marketing campaign for them. I for one would buy every single game from Amazon from now on, and that way have my real attention, something a witty ad could never achieve.

 

[Steph_E.]

That really depends on how much they're buying the black Wii u at, and secondly on whether or not that set back (which might range from minor to £100,000) outweighs the periphals and games that these costumers purchase simply due to Amazon honouring the £199 deal.

The price they pay for the Wii U does not come into it - that is a fixed cost. (Surely you do not think Amazon will go to Nintendo and say "we messed up on our pricing so can we pay you a lower price for the Wii U?" I would love to hear Iwata's reply to that one).

Will they sell additional peripherals and games? To most people, probably yes, I grant you. However, it would require profit of £100 to make up for the lost money per order, not sales of £100. I don't know Amazon's markup per game, but just as a wild example, if they buy games for, say, £30 and sell them for £40, they would need to sell an ADDITIONAL £400 of games per person in addition to what people were already intending buying from them anyway, to make up the £100 lost profit. That is a lot of extra games.

 

[The_Lump]

The price they pay for the Wii U does not come into it - that is a fixed cost. (Surely you do not think Amazon will go to Nintendo and say "we messed up on our pricing so can we pay you a lower price for the Wii U?" I would love to hear Iwata's reply to that one).

Will they sell additional peripherals and games? To most people, probably yes, I grant you. However, it would require profit of £100 to make up for the lost money per order, not sales of £100. I don't know Amazon's markup per game, but just as a wild example, if they buy games for, say, £30 and sell them for £40, they would need to sell an ADDITIONAL £400 of games per person in addition to what people were already intending buying from them anyway, to make up the £100 lost profit. That is a lot of extra games.

Please read my post further up. Explains it fully.


Edit: I should taken the cost price of ganes/controllers into account. But still, they are likely to get at least a couple games and a peripheral from each of those newly happy customers - and that'll net them at least £50 profit. Point still stands

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

No one could have predicted Amazon changing these orders in the first place, so trying to guess their financials and what they may or may not do seems like a massive waste of time.

 

[AndTAR]

So, they basically made two subsequent listings for the Wii U back in june: one incorrectly marked as available - not eligible for the 199£ price - and another, marked correctly as unavailable, which is now eligible for the 199£ price?

I wonder what kind of these I had, then. My order confirmation did not explicitly state "pre-order", however, perhaps it was still marked as unavailable, with the delivery estimate set to 17 July 2012 - 25 July 2012, more than a month away?

 

[Steph_E.]

Please read my post further up. Explains it fully.

No, I'm afraid your post is incorrect.

To compare how much Amazon pay for the Wiiu compared with how much they sell it for is wrong in this situation. You have to compare what they are selling it for with what they should be selling it for to work out their loss by honouring the orders, and that is a difference of £100, not the £50 you quote.

Also, to make up the lost money via additional sales you have to take into account the gross profit of such sales, not the sales value (you have to buy those extra goods in order to sell them).

EDIT: Sorry didn't read your last section closely enough, but the point still stands that if they make say 25% profit margin on game sales, they would need additional sales of £400 to make up for the £100 lost profit on the hardware.

 

[The_Lump]

No, I'm afraid your post is incorrect.

To compare how much Amazon pay for the Wiiu compared with how much they sell it for is wrong in this situation. You have to compare what they are selling it for with what they should be selling it for to work out their loss by honouring the orders, and that is a difference of £100, not the £50 you quote.

Also, to make up the lost money via additional sales you have to take into account the gross profit of such sales, not the sales value (you have to buy those extra goods in order to sell them).

Edited to address your 2nd paragraph. Still same result though.

As for your first point, that's not what large businesses do. They don't look at 'what they could have made' they look at cost vs profit. Bottom line is key. Remember they are buying these in huge quantities.

And the 'bottom line' is, Amazon is still going to make money from this mistake.

 

[Steph_E.]

Edited to address your 2nd paragraph. Still same result though.

As for your first point, that's not what large businesses do. They don't look at 'what they would have made', they look at cost vs profit. Bottom line is key. Remember they are buying these in huge quantities.

I am not saying that is how Amazon would look at it, but they still don't like throwing money away. What I am saying is that it will cost Amazon a substancial sum of money (ie £100 x number of orders less the profit made on additional game/peripheral sales), especially in relation to their bottom line last year.

 

[The_Lump]

I am not saying that is how Amazon would look at it, but they still don't like throwing money away. What I am saying is that it will cost Amazon a substancial sum of money (ie £100 x number of orders less the profit made on additional game/peripheral sales), especially in relation to their bottom line last year.

We'll have to agree to disagree then mate. I genuinely think (from what I've heard) the unit costs Amazon a maximum of £245. If we use that figure as a base: (hypothetical maths incoming!)

They've lost £46 per £199 unit (not lost from their profit, actual loss on buying/selling the unit). If we estimate 500 people will receive this special price, which is a high estimate imo, that's £23k down the drain from Amazon's pockets. They're not going to say "well we could have had £50 profit on all those, so that's another £25k gone aswell!" That's not a corporate mindset (although it sounds like a greedy corporations mindset, I know!!)

Let's then say each person happy with their purchase buys 2 games from amazon over the next few months (im not sure of the average attach rate of a new console tbh but that seems a low end estimate) plus a peripheral totalling £120. At 30% margin on software (that was walmarts mark up a few years back I believe) plus let's assume the same on peripherals, Amazon will be getting £36. x 500 is £18k. Amazon is now £7k out of pocket. And we haven't even factored in further software purchases now likely to be made through amazon, the future customers they have just made by being so accommodating, and how many others will be encouraged to use them down the line. It's great PR. They are not crying over this and I doubt they are going to go back on their word again. That would be PR suicide.

(these are estimate/rounded figures and shouldn't be taken as fact!)

 

[Bony Manifesto]

And the 'bottom line' is, Amazon is still going to make money from this mistake.

Amazon would still turn a healthy profit if they gave away all Wii U pre-orders for free, but in the face of such a cock-up, their thinking will be less "oh, at least we'll still turn a profit", and more "how the hell did this happen?". Even with this limited £199 price, I think you're being naive if you reckon everyone in Amazon is totally chilled about it, and that there isn't an internal investigation going on to avoid these sorts of pricing snafus in the future.

 

[The_Lump]

Amazon would still turn a healthy profit if they gave away all Wii U pre-orders for free, but in the face of such a cock-up, their thinking will be less "oh, at least we'll still turn a profit", and more "how the hell did this happen?". Even with this limited £199 price, I think you're being naive if you reckon everyone in Amazon is totally chilled about it, and that there isn't an internal investigation going on to avoid these sorts of pricing snafus in the future.

I don't reckon that at all. (I don't think I implied that either). People will likely receive a bollocking, and someone isn't getting a bonus this year I'm sure.

I was simply implying that Amazon are unlikely to reverse their decision again at this point. It wouldn't benefit them.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

I don't reckon that at all. (I don't think I implied that either). People will likely receive a bollocking, and someone isn't getting a bonus this year I'm sure.

I was simply implying that Amazon are unlikely to reverse their decision again at this point. It wouldn't benefit them.

But you're talking like this is some sort of net-gain for Amazon, rather than the clear loss of revenue that it is! They must have determined that it's an acceptable loss, but it's still a loss nevertheless.

 

[Steph_E.]

We'll have to agree to disagree then mate. I genuinely think (from what I've heard) the unit costs Amazon a maximum of £245. If we use that figure as a base: (hypothetical maths incoming!)

They've lost £46 per £199 unit (not lost from their profit, actual loss on buying/selling the unit). If we estimate 500 people will receive this special price, which is a high estimate imo, that's £23k down the drain from Amazon's pockets. They're not going to say "well we could have had £50 profit on all those, so that's another £25k gone aswell!" That's not a corporate mindset (although it sounds like a greedy corporations mindset, I know!!)

Let's then say each person happy with their purchase buys 2 games from amazon over the next few months (im not sure of the average attach rate of a new console tbh but that seems a low end estimate) plus a peripheral totalling £120. At 30% margin on software (that was walmarts mark up a few years back I believe) plus let's assume the same on peripherals, Amazon will be getting £36. x 500 is £18k. Amazon is now £7k out of pocket. And we haven't even factored in further software purchases now likely to be made through amazon, the future customers they have just made by being so accommodating, and how many others will be encouraged to use them down the line. It's great PR. They are not crying over this and I doubt they are going to go back on their word again. That would be PR suicide.

(these are estimate/rounded figures and shouldn't be taken as fact!)

The actual loss is not relevant, Amazon's base cost is not relevant. It is the money they have thrown away, which starts out at £100 per unit (ie £299 less £199), less any profit they claw back on later on game sales.

Anyway, we seem to be going around in circles, me restating my case, you restating your case, so as you said "we'll have to agree to disagree then mate"

 

[The_Lump]

But you're talking like this is some sort of net-gain for Amazon, rather than the clear loss of revenue that it is! They must have determined that it's an acceptable loss, but it's still a loss nevertheless.

No, I'm just saying they won't be in a position where they feel they have to cancel the whole lot. I was just backing that up by saying that, contrary to other comments, I don't think they've actually lost that much money.

Of course it's still a huge cock up (I said as much in my initial post) and of course they'll investigate etc. My point was simply that they aren't going to cancel the whole thing for everyone - as some people were worrying they might. Like you say, I assume the loss, is acceptable.

 

[Currygan]

If you don't like them however, Simply Games also have most WiiU games for £39.85 too, but as I have only used them once, for F1 2012 I can't vouch for them personally just yet.

I have used them a quite few times - they normally have decent prices, and they have always been reliable, it is just that their website is sooooo slow.

thanks for the advice, I knew them but never bought anything. Site is very fast for me, though

 

[The_Lump]

The actual loss is not relevant, Amazon's base cost is not relevant. It is the money they have thrown away, which starts out at £100 per unit (ie £299 less £199), less any profit they claw back on later on game sales.

Anyway, we seem to be going around in circles, me restating my case, you restating your case, so as you said "we'll have to agree to disagree then mate"

Yeah. It's all conjecture anyway. I'm only speaking from vague experience/knowledge on the subject and don't claim to know how Amazons higher ups will view it. Of course somewhere higher up someone will aknowledge how much potential profit they have lost out on etc etc. Someone will receive a kick up the ass and their policy will likely change to protect them in future. But in terms of correcting this mistake and dealing with clients on the ground, that really won't factor in to any decisions to reverse their offers of lower prices.

 

[Currygan]

damn, console is already sold out at amazon.it. Hot cakes indeed!

 

[The_Lump]

Amazon uk is listing the peripherals etc very poorly. If you search "Wii U" it cones up with the 3x bundles and a couple games. The rest is Wii/Ds stuff. You have to dig a bit to find everything
Zavvi and Play seem to have a much better layout in this regard. Maybe Amazon are waiting on some more details before they list properly?

 

[kitsuneyo]

What doesnt work like what?

You seemed to be comparing revenue and profit as like for like.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

damn, console is already sold out at amazon.it. Hot cakes indeed!

Just out of curiosity, did anyone manage to confirm whether Amazon.it's zombie U bundle comes with nintendoland instead of the ccpro?

 

[Currygan]

Just out of curiosity, did anyone manage to confirm whether Amazon.it's zombie U bundle comes with nintendoland instead of the ccpro?

I would love to hear that. I'll email them

 

[MicH]

Amazon uk is listing the peripherals etc very poorly. If you search "Wii U" it cones up with the 3x bundles and a couple games. The rest is Wii/Ds stuff. You have to dig a bit to find everything
Zavvi and Play seem to have a much better layout in this regard. Maybe Amazon are waiting on some more details before they list properly?

Well, you can see all the consoles and accessories at this link. Haven't found a way to list the games yet.

Also, for those of you looking to buy some Wii remote plusses I recommend looking for some FlingSmash/Wii Play Motion bundles with the wii remote plus. They're usually cheaper than the stand-alone remotes!

 

[The_Lump]

Just out of curiosity, did anyone manage to confirm whether Amazon.it's zombie U bundle comes with nintendoland instead of the ccpro?

I thought NoE confirmed all European Zombi U bundles included Pro Controller + ZU (instead of NintendoLand)?

 

[mrbaba]

Amazon uk is listing the peripherals etc very poorly. If you search "Wii U" it cones up with the 3x bundles and a couple games. The rest is Wii/Ds stuff. You have to dig a bit to find everything
Zavvi and Play seem to have a much better layout in this regard. Maybe Amazon are waiting on some more details before they list properly?

THIS link formats the Wii U bits at Amazon nicely.

 

[kitsuneyo]

Do you think we'll get a proper case with Nintendo Land? I'm thinking it might go on eBay to fund a different game, once I've played it for a bit.

I remember I got a proper case with my Wii Sports near launch, but then with later Wiis it came in a cardboard slip.

 

[MicH]

I just heard from a friend who emailed Amazon customer service an hour or two ago about the June 199 price and he got it reinstated just now! Seems like they're STILL doing it!

 

[Steph_E.]

You seemed to be comparing revenue and profit as like for like.

Not at all. I can assure you if I didn't know the difference between revenue and profit I wouldn't be doing the job I do.

 

[F#A#Oo]

If GAF costs me my £199.00 Wii U I'll be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssseeeeeeedddd. Piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeddddddddd.

 

[whatevermort]

If GAF costs me my £199.00 Wii U I'll be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssseeeeeeedddd. Piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeddddddddd.

This is like a real-time fable about group-greed happening as we watch.

 

[F#A#Oo]

It's the Internet, shit spreads faster than anything. It's the biggest sewing circle imaginable infact. If those barstewards at Hotukdeals find out then it's pretty much a disaster.

 

[Exterminieren]

I've kinda resigned myself to not getting it, and being pleasantly surprised if I do.

Thanks GAF.

 

[The_Lump]

Well, you can see all the consoles and accessories at this link. Haven't found a way to list the games yet.

Also, for those of you looking to buy some Wii remote plusses I recommend looking for some FlingSmash/Wii Play Motion bundles with the wii remote plus. They're usually cheaper than the stand-alone remotes!

THIS link formats the Wii U bits at Amazon nicely.

Thanks!

 

[Currygan]

I thought NoE confirmed all European Zombi U bundles included Pro Controller + ZU (instead of NintendoLand)?

yep, amazon.it just replied to my email. They said they listed NL as a mistake and corrected it, so the bundle only has ZombiU

 

[Shadowman16]

Big thanks to all those on this thread for their help, Amazon have now reinstated my original pre order for the Premium Wii U for £200.

 

[Hobohodo]

After the posts this morning saying the game was up I wasn't going to bother, think I'll send off an email now.

 

[MiloFoxburr]

Big thanks to all those on this thread for their help, Amazon have now reinstated my original pre order for the Premium Wii U for £200.

Ha, nice! How'd you manage to talk them round in the end?

 

[kitsuneyo]

Not at all. I can assure you if I didn't know the difference between revenue and profit I wouldn't be doing the job I do.

Fair enough then my friend, I'm no expert. It was just that your conclusion that WiiU pre-orders could potentially make up 3% of Amazon's profits seemed a bit out there!

THIS link formats the Wii U bits at Amazon nicely.

£40 for those Wii Remotes... they could at least throw in a nunchuck in a matching colour.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Fair enough then my friend, I'm no expert. It was just that your conclusion that WiiU pre-orders could potentially make up 3% of Amazon's profits seemed a bit out there!



£40 for those Wii Remotes... they could at least throw in a nunchuck in a matching colour.

It's kinda funny, as they're the exact same product as the OG Wii Remote+ controllers:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...keywords=Wii+remote+plus+and+nunchuck&x=0&y=0

Only more expensive.