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[pvpness]

$250? So you're pretty much asking for another Wii situation where it flounders and will not hold up to the competition in a few years, thereby making sure that it doesn't receive straight quality ports from the next Playstation/Xbox. Ok, have fun with that.



They sure as hell better worry about power if they don't want another Wii situation where the software falls off the cliff after a few years.

Lunch date, sorry mate.

I really don't give a fuck if we end up with another "Wii situation." I don't care that the wii "floundered" after the generation ended and could only lay waste to it's competition for most of the generation. Of course, I'm also one of those that thinks even if Nintendo released a system more powerful than their competitors they'd still struggle with 3rd party support. Beyond all that, I don't buy consoles for power because that's what I've got a pc for. So long as they keep it affordable and have their standard stars showing up to the party they'll do alright I think.

I'm personally not gonna bite unless they can really wow me with something (and this goes for all three console makers). $250 was a request from a wishful old man remembering yesterday. I assume they'll come in at $300 this gen (like Sony/MS if they've learned anything).

Well, to slightly change the subject then...

Obviously, they're not bound by the iron-clad NDA we previously believed existed. So what do you guys think this means for Wii U 3rd party support? Does it mean anything at all?

Again, I'm one of the few that didn't believe in this magical NDA that was preventing an avalanche of titles from tumbling forth. My stance is the same as it has been since the Wii-U was announced... they'll get lots of "We're really excited to try out some sweet ideas!" from various devs/pubs, but very few things will materialize. Even things that would be seemingly obvious will be absent. The mind will boggle. It won't take long for us to find out what exactly is preventing meaningful third party support this time, as eager industry people tell us exactly why various games/genres aren't worth the risk/or time to make work with the Wii-U's unique userbase and controller.

 

[Sagitario]

The 3MB of L2 cache and 32MB of eDRAM are not rumors. Those come directly from Nintendo target specs and I've confirmed that from multiple spots. Same with the cache being split asymmetrically.
From what I understand the 32MB is considered as "MEM1". Essentially similar to Wii's 24MB of 1T-SRAM.
Also I don't see how the 3MB of L2 sounds excessive considering Xenon had 1MB and Cell had 2.5MB (if I remember correctly).

Is this good/bad/enough?

 

[snesfreak]

Who else is getting Wii-U at launch?

I'm preordering the fucking second it's on Amazon.

 

[wsippel]

Hey, maybe IBM will simply put an HMC together with the main SoC on an MCM. Simple board, no external memory chips, 128GB/s bandwidth.

 

[Wolfie5]

LOL. If I had made the thread I was going to name it "Wii U Speculation Thread of: Speculating the same things over and over till E3".

Yep, that should have been the name for this thread

 

[A.KU.MU]

...if the Wii U is at least 3x the power of a PS3.

Keep the dream alive.

 

[Plinko]

$349 is a good price if the Wii U is at least 3x the power of a PS3
anything less is THIS gen not NEXT and Nintendo should not even bother

so it better be at $349 and worth it for the hardware

P.S. Hey Nintendo if you even think of putting a Mii feature in my Pikmin 3 I will boycott U for the next 10 years

Come on, you know the game title will be "PikMiin."

 

[Mr. Saturn]

Keep the dream alive.

Is the wiiu being 3x more powerful than the ps3 that big of a stretch?

 

[snesfreak]

Is the wiiu being 3x more powerful than the ps3 that big of a stretch?

For some people, some probably think it even being as powerful as the PS3 is a stretch.
But they don't matter.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

Is the wiiu being 3x more powerful than the ps3 that big of a stretch?

Honestly I'm not expecting much bigger (5x at the most) from the PS3 and 360 successors. So kind of.
But I'm also somewhat insane..

 

[Rolf NB]

Really? Being built from the ground up would seem to keep that from happening.

I meant the odd bus width. This isn't a graphics card with a 12-month shelf life at best. You need to consider a revision roadmap for at least five years. The nice thing about power-of-two bus widths is that, for a revision, you can switch to using half the chips at twice the clocks a few years after launch, simplify the circuit board and bring your costs down. Or you can switch to chips with twice the capacity and twice the bus width once they become available. But what's half of three memory chips?

64 or 128. There's no precedent for non-power of two memory bus widths in a console. I'd be mighty surprised if Nintendo starts doing it.

 

[Gravijah]

Who else is getting Wii-U at launch?

unlikely. i'm not really sure what next gen system i'll get first.

 

[disap.ed]

I meant the odd bus width. This isn't a graphics card with a 12-month shelf life at best. You need to consider a revision roadmap for at least five years. The nice thing about power-of-two bus widths is that, for a revision, you can switch to using half the chips at twice the clocks a few years after launch, simplify the circuit board and bring your costs down. Or you can switch to chips with twice the capacity and twice the bus width once they become available. But what's half of three memory chips?

If they are using GDDR5 it most probably would be 6 chips, no?

 

[GameE]

How does this thread go so fast with such little news?

 

[-WindYoshi-]

How does this thread go so fast with such little news?

Nintendo magic.

 

[Penguin]

Well, to slightly change the subject then...

Until recently, a lot of us have been speculating that many devs weren't announcing Wii U support for known titles in development because Nintendo has been forcing them to keep their traps shut in preparation for a big E3 blowout.

But then Project C.A.R.S. happened.

With very little drama or fanfare associated, they just announced a Wii U version of a pretty major title (for them), even going as far as slapping a Wii U logo on their press images (something many other 3rd parties who previously pledged support to the Wii U have yet to do).

Obviously, they're not bound by the iron-clad NDA we previously believed existed. So what do you guys think this means for Wii U 3rd party support? Does it mean anything at all?

Honestly, I think it means nothing.

I mean.. and this is a stretch
As you said, they didn't announce anything. Its a logo on a website. For all we know, it could just mean they want to bring the game over to the wii U and don't have dev kits so they can say they are working on it.

OR the logo may disappear in a few days.

I still think Nintendo has most people under radio silence until they are ready

 

[Chanser]

Got a lot of discount points saved for Wii U, I just hope there will be a black version on launch.

 

[adroit]

How does this thread go so fast with such little news?

Nintendo magic.

NeoGAF magic.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Is the wiiu being 3x more powerful than the ps3 that big of a stretch?

Not at all. Based on the bits of knowledge we had from the early dev kits we already know its at least in that range.

 

[Bullza2o]

How does this thread go so fast with such little news?

Nintendo likes to play with the minds of GAF.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

And if they bring a console onto the market that is $250, it wouldn't be that much better than what is currently available

By the time this thing releases it will be nearly 7 years since Microsoft sold the lower-level Xbox 360 for $300. Significantly more can be done at a significantly lower cost.

If in 2006 instead of releasing hardware that was an edited GameCube, they'd had something that was more standard hardware of a PC generation or two behind Xbox 360, it would've had a far far better time of things. This is the worst case scenario for a cheap Wii U.

Do you really think Sony or Microsoft can sell an additional 30 million consoles this generation, to tie the Wii?

They've had more success late in life than early so I'd actually say it's an outside possibility... if they're willing to allow Wii U to get 50 million in the can while they catch up.

I would like to throw my Miis for Bulborbs to eat!

OK, you've sold me. Watching my friends, family, and a bunch of bozos from the Mii Parade taking on bulborbs is too good.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Who else is getting Wii-U at launch?

I haven't been convinced yet. To get me at launch, a system has to (A) have a good pack-in game; (B) be affordable; (C) have a pretty decent list of future games that I really want; and (D) do something other than "it's identical to last time, but with more pixels!".

So far, they have D and maybe C. I can sacrifice A if the other three are overwhelmingly strong, but I won't sacrifice B, even if the pack-in game dispenses everclear and bacon.

...okay, maybe bacon.


edit: I got the TurboGrafx-16 (Rest In Peace, Hudson) instead of the SNES and only got the latter until much further on, when it had a shitton of great games. Just putting that there so you can see where I'm coming from.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'll get it if I can afford it at the time and there is at least one game I would buy for it.

I get all systems eventually, so "If I have the expendable income" is the main concern.

 

[Mr. Saturn]

Honestly I'm not expecting much bigger (5x at the most) from the PS3 and 360 successors. So kind of.
But I'm also somewhat insane..

Well, that doesn't seem so crazy when one considers how much money Sony lost on the PS3. I'm also expecting the PS4 to be a moderate upgrade to the PS3. As for Microsoft's next gen console, I have no idea.

 

[bgassassin]

Is this good/bad/enough?

For what Nintendo seems to be targeting for the games I would say it's sufficient. Or else we probably would have to start considering $399 as the most likely price point.

I meant the odd bus width. This isn't a graphics card with a 12-month shelf life at best. You need to consider a revision roadmap for at least five years. The nice thing about power-of-two bus widths is that, for a revision, you can switch to using half the chips at twice the clocks a few years after launch, simplify the circuit board and bring your costs down. Or you can switch to chips with twice the capacity and twice the bus width once they become available. But what's half of three memory chips?

64 or 128. There's no precedent for non-power of two memory bus widths in a console. I'd be mighty surprised if Nintendo starts doing it.

I think I got you now based on the question you posed. But yeah I'm referring to six chips. They could probably go to three later on if there's a density increase, but what I was looking at it from the perspective of six 2Gbit GDDR5 chips to reach 1.5GB.

 

[A.KU.MU]

Is the wiiu being 3x more powerful than the ps3 that big of a stretch?

Nintendo.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Nintendo.

So no, given most of their past history?

 

[GameplayWhore]

I get all systems eventually, so "If I have the expendable income" is the main concern.

You may have to cut down on that massive wine budget.

 

[HylianTom]

Is the wiiu being 3x more powerful than the ps3 that big of a stretch?

If we can't see nits crawling along each individual Pikmin's hairs, people will whine and complain..

Spoiler

and I'll wonder how their dainty, delicate eyes ever fared with such ugly gaming graphics prior to the generation of hardware that allowed such things

 

[ReyVGM]

Again, I'm one of the few that didn't believe in this magical NDA that was preventing an avalanche of titles from tumbling forth. My stance is the same as it has been since the Wii-U was announced... they'll get lots of "We're really excited to try out some sweet ideas!" from various devs/pubs, but very few things will materialize. Even things that would be seemingly obvious will be absent. The mind will boggle. It won't take long for us to find out what exactly is preventing meaningful third party support this time, as eager industry people tell us exactly why various games/genres aren't worth the risk/or time to make work with the Wii-U's unique userbase and controller.

This has been the unfortunate truth since the N64 days. First it was cartridges, then it has minidisks/"kiddy" console, then it was lack of power and now what will it be?
"I can't put my game on the Wii U because I don't know what to put on the controller screen"? Which has already happened mind you. Several devs have said that if they can't figure out how to use the screen in a meaningful way, then they won't port the games because there's no reason to have the same thing on another consoles.

I remember IGA saying he didn't want to do a Wii Castlevania because he thought people would get tired of swinging the remote to use the whip (as if it was obligatory to do so), but then he released a Castlevania fighting game... without motion. Really, IGA?

I'm preordering the fucking second it's on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050SVHZO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[Fourth Storm]

Hey, maybe IBM will simply put an HMC together with the main SoC on an MCM. Simple board, no external memory chips, 128GB/s bandwidth.

Wait...what? HMC is a new term to me. Care to elaborate a bit further?

 

[blu]

The one thing that we know for sure about the CPU (other than it being an IBM multicore Power architecture chip) is that it uses eDRAM as part of the cache. Looking at the Power7, which is the chip IBM designed their eDRAM cache for, there's 32MB of eDRAM L3 cache shared amongst all 8 cores, each of which has lower-latency access to a 4MB section of it. There's then a 256kB L2 SRAM cache for each core as well. The reason they include the L2 SRAM cache is that the latency on that SRAM is 8 clock cycles, whereas the minimum latency on the eDRAM is 25 clock cycles (which would be reduced a bit if it were used as L2, but would still be much too high).

eDRAM is cheap and dense, but it's not going to be able to achieve the latency required for use as an L2 cache, so the L2 caches are going to be SRAM. Therefore, there is going to be some eDRAM L3 cache.

I don't know where the mentions of 3MB of L2 cache come from, but it strikes me as excessive if there's also L3 cache on there, and a bit on the low side if you're talking about L2+L3. Asymmetrical L2 cache is possible, perhaps along the lines of 256kB/128kB/128kB. The L3 cache, assuming it's shared, could be asymmetrical in a topological sense, in that if, for example, there's 8MB of L3 cache, the main core has low-latency access to 4MB of it, and each of the other cores 2MB.

SRAM's latency advantage over IBM's 1Mb edram macros diminishes with the increase of overall size - at 8MB (64Mb) edram already provides better cumulative latency. That said, I don't believe WiiU will feature any substantial CPU-local edram. I think IBM's tech has been aptly used for the needs of the GPU. I think the CPU will 'merely' have a hefty amount of L2 SRAM - asymmetric, as already discussed.

 

[Sagitario]

For what Nintendo seems to be targeting for the games I would say it's sufficient. Or else we probably would have to start considering $399 as the most likely price point.

And what exactly is the target?

 

[snesfreak]

Nintendo.

Ah, the predictable and completely WRONG "Nintendo." response.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050SVHZO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Already signed up.

 

[StevieP]

I hate to break it to ya...

but nintendo don't give a mother fuck about power. It'll be $299. $349 max.

What is with the constant revisionist history on GAF?

Wii won this gen? Gen is over? I think Wii bowing out earlier means it won a big portion only.

Even if the Wii sold zero from now until the end of time, and the other consoles continued to sell long after their successors release, I doubt they catch up. The Wii won this generation, even with only 5 real years as opposed to the 7 by is competitors. This is like the stupid fights people had last gen between Gamecube/Xbox being second place, except stupider.

Keep the dream alive.

Again with the revisionist history.

This has been the unfortunate truth since the N64 days. First it was cartridges, then it has minidisks/"kiddy" console, then it was lack of power and now what will it be?
"I can't put my game on the Wii U because I don't know what to put on the controller screen"? Which has already happened mind you. Several devs have said that if they can't figure out how to use the screen in a meaningful way, then they won't port the games because there's no reason to have the same thing on another consoles.

The Wii U tablet is, unfortunately, a dual-analog control scheme. The "excuses" you speak of won't be so easy.

 

[wsippel]

Wait...what? HMC is a new term to me. Care to elaborate a bit further?

Hybrid Memory Cube. Several DRAM dies stacked on top of a controller/ logic die. Extremely fast and consumes very little power, but it's truly bleeding edge stuff. First prototypes surfaced in September 2011, a joint production agreement between Micron and IBM was signed in December, and the chips aren't expected to become widely available until late 2013.

 

[AzaK]

Who else is getting Wii-U at launch?

Likely, but I really just don't know. I am VERY excited about the Wii U but at the same time that excitement is made up from expectation that will include great 3rd party games and a good online system. The Wii generation really bummed me out. Watching all the other platforms get all these great games and seeing their great online services just got me down.

So I guess you could say that if E3 shows me enough cool shit is coming down at launch and over the first year then I'll be preordering for sure.

32MB of eDRAM is still a fair amount as long as you don't expect to use MSAA for the framebuffer. And if the configuration is flexible enough, you might do direct reading of the framebuffer in that local space to cut down on having to shift things to main memory, and perhaps use the eDRAM for texture ops... ultimately cutting down on main memory bandwidth contention. So... it really depends on the rest of the tech what makes a decent amount of sense here. Having a huge amount of bandwidth to main memory may not be as critical as you might think.

This is what confuses me about EDRAM. If it's primarily a Framebuffer then all the textures still need to come from main ram and hence that's the bottle neck no as the GPU has to read them from there?

The 3MB of L2 cache and 32MB of eDRAM are not rumors. Those come directly from Nintendo target specs and I've confirmed that from multiple spots. Same with the cache being split asymmetrically.

32MB isn't a rumour? I must have missed that in the thread as I thought it was still up in the air.

Spoiler

And was going to be 768MB

For what Nintendo seems to be targeting for the games I would say it's sufficient. Or else we probably would have to start considering $399 as the most likely price point.

So wouldn't that suggest that the 720/PS4, which we all pretty much agree is going to be gruntier than the Wii U, will cost more than $399. OK PS4 maybe not quite as high because it doesn't have a fancy controller but the 720 will likely have Kinect.

 

[VariantX]

So no, given most of their past history?

Nintendo's past history would suggest that they'd release hardware that can match up well with competing consoles of that console's generation. The Wii was the only time they've ever released hardware that would be considered underpowered compared to the other consoles on the market. Nintendo, however, does has a history of picking media formats that bit them in the butt. They stuck with expensive carts for the N64 that couldn't hold even half the data that a ps1 disc could. Nintendo also used those 1.5 GB mini discs for the GC when everyone else enjoying the use of 8GB dvds.

 

[bgassassin]

And what exactly is the target?

Do you want the Reggie answer or something more technically realistic?

 

[guek]

it always irks me how people point to the DS/3DS as another example of nintendo "lagging." It makes a bit more sense with the 3DS since mobile tech advancement has skyrocketed, but even then the 3DS uses pretty expensive tech and is sold more or less at cost. But with the DS, it was a completely normal bump up from the GBA, and except for the PSP, better than just about any other form of portable gaming when it came out.

 

[Xun]

Who else is getting Wii-U at launch?

Not for a while.

Not making the same mistake I made with the Wii.

Aside from Zelda and Mario I barely played the damn thing, which was a huge contrast to the GameCube.

 

[guek]

well it'll be day 1 for me. The Wii was my favorite platform this gen, though it's followed very closely by PC.

 

[A.KU.MU]

Ah, the predictable and completely WRONG "Nintendo." response.

I'm eager to hear the right response.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Even if the Wii sold zero from now until the end of time, and the other consoles continued to sell long after their successors release, I doubt they catch up. The Wii won this generation, even with only 5 real years as opposed to the 7 by is competitors. This is like the stupid fights people had last gen between Gamecube/Xbox being second place, except stupider.

For what it's worth, it's not unlikely that the *software* sales of the Xbox 360 will exceed that of the Wii. You could make an argument for that being a win condition.

edit: the above statement is an assumption -- I have no idea where their current total software sales currently stand, and I ain't visitin' that VG-whatsitz site, neither!

The Wii U tablet is, unfortunately, a dual-analog control scheme. The "excuses" you speak of won't be so easy.

There are some differences that devs could whine over. No clicky-sticks and possibly no analog on the bottom shoulder buttons, as examples. Also, does the 360 have analog face buttons or was that just the Playstations?

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

What excites me the most is how the touch screen will work into games like Ninja Gaiden 3. I'm also hoping for a good port of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance.

 

[GameplayWhore]

I'm eager to hear the right response.

The reason why saying "Nintendo" is a problematic response is that in the home console realm it has a general overwhelming history of releasing systems that are competitive from a cpu and graphics standpoint. So your answer stated the opposite of your intent.

 

[Forsaken82]

I haven't been convinced yet. To get me at launch, a system has to (A) have a good pack-in game; (B) be affordable; (C) have a pretty decent list of future games that I really want; and (D) do something other than "it's identical to last time, but with more pixels!".
.

You haven't bought a system at launch in a while then have you.

 

[StevieP]

I'm eager to hear the right response.

The Wii was Nintendo's first underpowered system, and it was intentional from their perspective.

For what it's worth, it's not unlikely that the *software* sales of the Xbox 360 will exceed that of the Wii. You could make an argument for that being a win condition.

Courtesy of JVM:

By volume - at least until recently (not sure what the breakdown is now) the Wii sold the most software this gen.

There are some differences that devs could whine over. No clicky-sticks and possibly no analog on the bottom shoulder buttons, as examples.

No clicky sticks causing devs to whine? C'mon now. They're going to have to do better than that. There are functions that can be mapped to other things (touch screen, waggle, etc) if they REALLY run out. Hell, when I played CoD on Wii, I mapped knifing to nunchuck waggle. SO much more satisfying than a button, and with a slight increase in the motion sensitivity slider over the defaults I got it to work when I wanted 100% of the time.

 

[Dreamwriter]

You haven't bought a system at launch in a while then have you.

Wii had a good packin game, 3DS had a number of good packin minigames...

 

[Sagitario]

Do you want the Reggie answer or something more technically realistic?

Anything but Reggie