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[Fafalada]

Not anytime soon. The most costly components are outsourced to Sharp (screen) and Samsung (RAM/media decoder). If Sony internalizes LCD production to their joint facility with Samsung, you can expect a perceptible drop in quality

Oh for crying out... I like the PSP screen a lot, but it's not THAT great. I've seen how much better it could look... (and perhaps Would have looked if Sony didn't go with the 200$ pricepoint).

In regards to Samsung outsourcing - I very much doubt that main memory is a major cost at current price point - but I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a price issue latter on when the thing will be selling at 100$ or less.
And last I checked VME was part of the same chip as the rest of PSP processors, so unless Sony recently decided to stop manufacturing PSP chips, they aren't outsourcing that to Samsung.

So essentially, PSP is SCEI's Xbox.

Way too early to call it that (and I don't mean in terms of market success, it's obviously too early to call That, we'll see if it keeps selling after first 5M).

 

[LUNA]

As a sane human being I have learnt long ago that Nintendo is a bunch of pot smokers.

Then we agree 100%. That is the good thing about Nintendo and their games.

 

[SolidSnakex]

PS2 - Its all about the gameplay, man
PSP - THE GRAPHICS, THE GRAPHICS!

Ah, Sony fanboys never cease to amuse. MS and Nintendo fans may be insane, but at the very least, they're more consistant.

You know, I see this brought up alot, but when have PS2 fans even made that argument for the systems games in general? The argument i've seen made is that the graphics between the current 3 systems aren't that different from one another, which they aren't.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

Thread title makes no sense, Nintendo isn't going to have some low speced console for the sake of innovation. Stop assuming that whatever the revolutionary feature is, its gonna cost so much that its gonna affect the capabilities of the chipset.

Remember controllers can be sold seperately, if thats where the feature will be. How do you connect whats happened with the DS, to the Revolution? If your going to do that, the GC should only be capable of 2D sprites.

I think Sony had no choice but to go with a high spec handheld business model, there was no way they were going to release a handheld that doesn't have this advantage. They had present a real alternative, to what Nintendo had with the GBA on the market.

 

[TheDiave]

Every other fucking day I swear.

 

[gamergirly]

Thread title makes no sense, Nintendo isn't going to have some low speced console for the sake of innovation. Stop assuming that whatever the revolutionary feature is, its gonna cost so much that its gonna affect the capabilities of the chipset.

Remember controllers can be sold seperately, if thats where the feature will be. How do you connect whats happened with the DS, to the Revolution? If your going to do that, the GC should only be capable of 2D sprites.

I think Sony had no choice but to go with a high spec handheld business model, there was no way they were going to release a handheld that doesn't have this advantage. They had present a real alternative, to what Nintendo had with the GBA on the market.

Which is exactly what Microsoft did with Xbox. The only thing left now to decide everything is the games. For that, we have E3. After E3, you should have more of an idea where their products are headed and who will win the Xmas battle

 

[chespace]

Which is exactly what Microsoft did with Xbox. The only thing left now to decide everything is the games. For that, we have E3. After E3, you should have more of an idea where their products are headed and who will win the Xmas battle

Yup, and guess who came out on top between Xbox and GC?

 

[The End]

Yup, and guess who came out on top between Xbox and GC?

ouch.

 

[jarrod]

(and perhaps Would have looked if Sony didn't go with the 200$ pricepoint).

You mean 250$ price point. The one they're eating a loss on.

In regards to Samsung outsourcing - I very much doubt that main memory is a major cost at current price point -

Well, Mr. PlayStation disagrees. Kutaragi singled out the screen, memory and WiFi PHY as being the highest costs and all being outsourced as well. He mentioned that SCE is only producing about 50% of PSP components internally too.

And last I checked VME was part of the same chip as the rest of PSP processors, so unless Sony recently decided to stop manufacturing PSP chips, they aren't outsourcing that to Samsung.

Whoops! Sorry, Samsung's only supplying 64MB MCPs for PSP.

Way too early to call it that (and I don't mean in terms of market success, it's obviously too early to call That, we'll see if it keeps selling after first 5M).

I was talking mainly in terms of market strategy. A high powered, feature rich, substantially loss taking "foot in the door" so to speak.

 

[gamergirly]

Yup, and guess who came out on top between Xbox and GC?

Currently Xbox. We can discuss who came out on top when this generation is over.

 

[chespace]

Currently Xbox. We can discuss who came out on top when this generation is over.

Hey, I thought GC was gonna kick ass and take names in 2004? Maybe this year then, huh?

 

[gamergirly]

Hey, I thought GC was gonna kick ass and take names in 2004? Maybe this year then, huh?

Nah, maybe Xbox can still do the same as 2004 with Halo 2.5 this Xmas

 

[jarrod]

Hey, I thought GC was gonna kick ass and take names in 2004? Maybe this year then, huh?

No that was 2003. In 2004 Halo 2 and Fable finally released.

 

[Fafalada]

You mean 250$ price point. The one they're eating a loss on.

Wasn't there some talk from retailers that 200$ skus will be sold at later time, as availability allows it?

Well, Mr. PlayStation disagrees. Kutaragi singled out the screen, memory and WiFi PHY as being the highest costs and all being outsourced as well. He mentioned that SCE is only producing about 50% of PSP components internally too.

I should hope he wouldn't be singling out their internal production as more expensive then outsourced components - it'd make them look real bad. Still I find it odd memory would be so expensive - then again I have no clue how much that 32MB of Flash might be costing.

I was talking mainly in terms of market strategy. A high powered, feature rich, substantially loss taking "foot in the door" so to speak.

Well, PSP is at least presented as a different alternative to Nintendo's offering. XBox was just a Playstation++, even in terms of marketting.
And how much do we really know of their longterm PSP strategy yet - like I said it could still be early to tell

 

[akascream]

It's not just about power, though that is definately important. Just look how sexy the PSP is all around. From the sexy case, the brilliant screen, nice analog control, media functionality with a nice os with built in network settings, ect.... Nintendo is just not capable of any of these things.

Maybe if they color coded the DS buttons and made one of them really big they'd be on to something?

 

[jarrod]

Wasn't there some talk from retailers that 200$ skus will be sold at later time, as availability allows it?

No talk from Sony about the possibility.

I should hope he wouldn't be singling out their internal production as more expensive then outsourced components - it'd make them look real bad. Still I find it odd memory would be so expensive - then again I have no clue how much that 32MB of Flash might be costing.

Well, Kutaragi also mentioned that the 90nm process and internal production of key chips was what allowed the low launch price in Japan. Sounds like everything done inhouse is relatively cheap while the outsourced stuff is demanding higher fixed costs.

Well, PSP is at least presented as a different alternative to Nintendo's offering. XBox was just a Playstation++, even in terms of marketting.

I dunno, PSP seems to riding off as essentially Game Boy++ for adults. Or iPod++ sometimes if the media feels like it.

So far, DS seems like the real alternative in terms of featureset and marketing.

And how much do we really know of their longterm PSP strategy yet - like I said it could still be early to tell

Well sure. I should also point out that equating PSP and Xbox isn't my personal position but rather the interpretation of someone else's comments concerning Sony's expectations.

 

[fennec fox]

Then we agree 100%. That is the good thing about Nintendo and their games.

Eat me

 

[chespace]

So far, DS seems like the real alternative in terms of featureset and marketing.

Hey Jarrod. Just curious, do you think the NDS looks lame, from an ID perspective?

 

[The Faceless Master]

Yup, and guess who came out on top between Xbox and GC?

depends on if you consider the one who's making the money 'on top' or not

 

[jarrod]

Hey Jarrod. Just curious, do you think the NDS looks lame, from an ID perspective?

I'm not sure what you're asking? I think the system itself's too bulky and the software so far dissapointing overall... but I also think the advertising's been effective and Nintendo's been great at lining up support. Why do you ask?

 

[cvxfreak]

depends on if you consider the one who's making the money 'on top' or not

Well why no just make two categories then?

 

[chespace]

I'm not sure what you're asking? I think the system itself's too bulky and the software so far dissapointing overall... but I also think the advertising's been effective and Nintendo's been great at lining up support. Why do you ask?

I'm just talking about the physical design of the system itself. So you don't like the way it looks? Nor the games for it? Okay, thanks. <filing info away>

 

[Red Scarlet]

Edit: Oh, there's 2 topics named very similarly...oops.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I'm just talking about the physical design of the system itself. So you don't like the way it looks? Nor the games for it? Okay, thanks. <filing info away>

gaf doesn't let things like that get in the way.

 

[Prine]

depends on if you consider the one who's making the money 'on top' or not

Fucking Nintendo fans and their endless spin. Like Nintendo's profits has any effect on GC sales

MS are doing fine, few billiion every quarter aint bad

 

[Pimpwerx]

PS2 - Its all about the gameplay, man
PSP - THE GRAPHICS, THE GRAPHICS!

Ah, Sony fanboys never cease to amuse. MS and Nintendo fans may be insane, but at the very least, they're more consistant.

The PS2, being market leader by a long way, had lots and lots of exclusives. If you didn't get one, you were missing out a ton on great games. With the PSP, it'll have the same quality non-Nintendo games as the DS, but also be a hell of a lot more machine to boot. If the Xbox had the same library as the PS2, you'd see the same arguments. After playing a PSP, I can't fathom what Nintendo engineers were thinking with the DS. It has the advantage for now. But there's just so much more going for the PSP that it won't be a long fight. PEACE.

 

[Chittagong]

The production costs I've seen...

GBA SP~ $45
NDS~ $115
PSP~ $285

The DS cost you mention is about $3 away from what I've seen suggested, so probably something around that, with a bulk of the price (>50%) being the screens. I haven't seen a recent estimate of PSP cost, and the lack of a tear-down report is killing me. I have, however, heard $70 - 80 loss per unit for US launch, which would put your suggested cost to around the right range. I would be surprised if WLAN was a big cost driver, as it isn't one for DS. I expect PSP costs be in more or less order from most expensive

Display
Optical drive
CPU
Flash memory

The interesting question is, however, how long they can stay away from $199 - that will really make or break PSP lifetime profitability.

When is Sony's Quarterly Report due? Could be very interesting with around
- $80 million loss in PSP device sales in US Q1
- $40 million loss in PSP device sales in Japan Q1 (guesstimate, didn't check price/volume)
- $90 million reservation for court order
- $50 million PSP launch campaign in US Q1 (guesstimate, could be lot less)

TOTAL -$260 million within one quarter around PlayStation, to be recouped elsewhere. It's actually so much that even a company of Sony's scale, given their low profit margin, will struggle to stay on the black.

 

[nubbe]

I like how handhelds has become the center of home entertainment instead of a substitute to amuse

Less focus on the consoles is always good

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

To answer the question posed in the title of this thread:

I don't think so.

1) That's assuming the PSP does well enough to cut into Nintendo's sales-- and for all we know, PSPs will sell to a different segment altogehter

2) That's also assuming that it's only the graphics and power that differentiate the PSP from the DS. There's a lot more to it than that. PSP is positioning itself differently in many ways:

Power and Grpahics (granted)

Multimedia secondrary functions

Different selection of game software, skewwing older and more Western is tastes.

"Lifestyle" appeal-- making the PSP a "cool gadget" which is a different market than "game machine" to a lot of people.



The substance of these differences is up for debate, but the marketing of them is not. We've seen more powerful hardware fail to gain the longevity of the Gameboy brand, but none had all this going for them. And, still PSP may not succeed. Sony's map listed above does have one successful previous appearance-- the original Playstation. You might argue that the Xbox followed a similar map.

 

[jarrod]

After playing a PSP, I can't fathom what Nintendo engineers were thinking with the DS.

Probably "$100" rather than "$300".

 

[Azelover]

Fucking Nintendo fans and their endless spin. Like Nintendo's profits has any effect on GC sales

MS are doing fine, few billiion every quarter aint bad

My God...

If Nintendo were spending as much money on Gamecube as Microsoft usually burns on the Xbox, the Gamecube would be leagues ahead of where it is now.. But instead it is effortlessly in comparison just a little bit behind Xbox worldwide. For now anyway, cause the difference between them wordwide sure isn't anything great. By the time Xenon hits the first Xbox won't be selling much, GC on the other hand will have the Zelda game this holiday. I mean is it that hard to imagine GC will end up outselling Xbox?

 

[TheJollyCorner]

For those of us who have been around since day 1 of the NES' US launch (and maybe those of you who were around for the various Atari releases), graphics have always been important. I remember seeing some stills of the first Castlevania in an electronic catalog and thinking "this is the most beautiful game ever!"
Like-wise when SNES was first shown and I saw a comparison of FFIV (or FFII) next to FF1, or Actraiser, or Super Castlevania IV. How can it get any better? How many of you remember how gorgeous games like Clockwork Knight for the Saturn and LOADED looked for the PSX? Christ, I remember seeing the first shots of Resident Evil in GameFan and thinking "no way a game that looks this good will have any kind of respectable gameplay." Well, that's an arguable debate... but RE was still a great game.

Rambling aside- graphics will always be a key. Sure, graphics without gameplay defeats the purpose... but the main companies, as far as I've seen, still have plenty of games with fantastic gameplay to back-up the pretty graphics.

The importance of graphics scenario in this day and age should be pretty obvious, considering how many people on this forum prefer XBox > PS2 (when it comes to multi-platform games) simply for the fact that XBox games look better.

Nintendo doesn't have to sacrifice innovation for better graphics. Never stopped them in the old days, did it?

 

[GaimeGuy]

My God...

If Nintendo were spending as much money on Gamecube as Microsoft usually burns on the Xbox, the Gamecube would be leagues ahead of where it is now.. But instead it is effortlessly in comparison just a little bit behind Xbox worldwide. For now anyway, cause the difference between them wordwide sure isn't anything great. By the time Xenon hits the first Xbox won't be selling much, GC on the other hand will have the Zelda game this holiday. I mean is it that hard to imagine GC will end up outselling Xbox?

If Nintendo spent as much money on GC as MS did on the Xbox, Nintendo would have spent over half of the money in their bank.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

PS2 - Its all about the gameplay, man
PSP - THE GRAPHICS, THE GRAPHICS!

Ah, Sony fanboys never cease to amuse. MS and Nintendo fans may be insane, but at the very least, they're more consistant.

See my above post.

For me, it's the games on both. Wipeout and Twisted Metal sold me on PSP. If the PSP were $100 cheaper and similar in power to the DS, and had those two games, I would still have bought it for those two games (and, in fact, with less hesitation). Part of me wishes it were less powerful and cheaper, although I am currently enjoying the Cadillac quality as a side benefit.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Will DS/PSP teach people that graphics aren't the only area of improvement possible in games? That it's not the sole source of enjoyment in a game?

 

[Prine]

My God...

If Nintendo were spending as much money on Gamecube as Microsoft usually burns on the Xbox, the Gamecube would be leagues ahead of where it is now.. But instead it is effortlessly in comparison just a little bit behind Xbox worldwide. For now anyway, cause the difference between them wordwide sure isn't anything great. By the time Xenon hits the first Xbox won't be selling much, GC on the other hand will have the Zelda game this holiday. I mean is it that hard to imagine GC will end up outselling Xbox?

Yeah, becuase Microsoft have 20 motherfucking years of gaming IP and brand recognition behind them. Because entering the market this gen was far easier and less expensive then the 80s-90s. Because Microsoft are not handicapped by Japan and still havent past the GC WW. Becuase MS didnt have build a brand from scratch....

Oh wait???

Ofcourse Nintendo would do well, they have some foundation to build upon. They have key franchises to exploit, they know how the industry ticks, its just their relationship with consumers which they'd need to evaluate.

And about GCN outselling the Xbox when they stop production.... you call that a victory?

 

[Hero]

Yup, and guess who came out on top between Xbox and GC?

I see you're still spouting this. Apparently you didn't see my message in the other thread where you ranted like this, or you just decided to ignore it, but I'll reply to this the same way.

- This generation isn't over.
- GCN will most likely outsell Xbox in the end due to X360 ending Xbox's current life
- Microsoft lost 3+ billion dollars to only outsell Gamecube (Nintendo's 'worst' system) by a million or two units. Even if you combined Xbox and Gamecube sales and doubled it, it still won't reach PS2's userbase. Claiming second place doesn't really matter.\

 

[Spike]

I don't understand the point of this thread.

- Nintendo has already stated that graphics will be on the level of the others.

- ATI has stated that the Revolution's graphics will be on the level of the others.

- Nintendo has already hinted that the GameCube Optical Disks are the media for an upcoming portable.

- EA has said that each of the next gen systems would act as wireless access points.

- Nintendo has teamed up with IBM and ATI. Microsoft has teamed up with IBM and ATI.

- Nintendo has stated backward compatibility. Sony says most likely. Microsoft hasn't said anything.

- Nintendo has committed to online.

- Nintendo is strengthening ties with third parties.

What is the problem? They've addressed most of the issues that people seem to have taken with them this gen.

At this point, the only factor that could hurt them is system design. I think that the GBA:SP is a nice design. The DS design is not bad, just not as nice as the PSP.

As for Nintendo's image, that could change overnight. All it takes is one or two titles, like GTA and Metal Gear, for a company's image to change.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I don't understand the point of this thread.

- Nintendo has already stated that graphics will be on the level of the others.

- ATI has stated that the Revolution's graphics will be on the level of the others.

- Nintendo has already hinted that the GameCube Optical Disks are the media for an upcoming portable.

- EA has said that each of the next gen systems would act as wireless access points.

- Nintendo has teamed up with IBM and ATI. Microsoft has teamed up with IBM and ATI.

- Nintendo has stated backward compatibility. Sony says most likely. Microsoft hasn't said anything.

- Nintendo has committed to online.

- Nintendo is strengthening ties with third parties.

What is the problem? They've addressed most of the issues that people seem to have taken with them this gen.

At this point, the only factor that could hurt them is system design. I think that the GBA:SP is a nice design. The DS design is not bad, just not as nice as the PSP.

As for Nintendo's image, that could change overnight. All it takes is one or two titles, like GTA and Metal Gear, for a company's image to change.

The problem is Nintendo is doomed.

 

[jarrod]

Yeah, becuase Microsoft have 20 motherfucking years of gaming IP and brand recognition behind them.

True. Microsoft only had about 6-8 years before Xbox.

 

[Spike]

One other thing I forgot to mention:

Nintendo has also stated that they will be working on new franchises for the Revolution launch.

 

[Date of Lies]

The point of this whole thread is retarded, the fact is Sony is dominating the console market with the least powerful console of the 3. What does that mean? IT MEANS THAT GRAPHICAL POWER ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT. But yes, It's "good", just like a field of dandylions, but there's no "lesson to learn" because the lesson would actually be the opposite. Graphics AREN'T that important, Xbox was the strongest and now Xenon is setting up to be the weakest of the consoles, is MS retarded? No, they've just realized that unless you jump in graphics aren't substancial, the general market isn't going to care. Anyway don't let me interupt your dayly Nintendo bash-fest.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Hey, I thought GC was gonna kick ass and take names in 2004? Maybe this year then, huh?

I'm sticking to my original prediction that when all the dust has settled, GameCube will have sold more units than Xbox. Only because Microsoft has every reason to yank the Xbox hardware from shelves as soon as they possibly can, whereas Nintendo continues to profit from the GameCube and can thus continue to sell it as a budget system post-Revolution.

I mean, at that point nobody will be paying any attention, but whatever.

 

[Hero]

I'm sticking to my original prediction that when all the dust has settled, GameCube will have sold more units than Xbox. Only because Microsoft has every reason to yank the Xbox hardware from shelves as soon as they possibly can, whereas Nintendo continues to profit from the GameCube and can thus continue to sell it as a budget system post-Revolution.

I mean, at that point nobody will be paying any attention, but whatever.

Gamecube will continue to sell for a while as a PSone like system, I imagine. 59.99 price point perhaps.

Of course, by the time GCN does outsell Xbox, people like Chespace will have just moved on to say 'Xbox 360 sales are too much for PS3/Revolution to catch up!'

And when PS3 and Revolution are revealed, it will go from 'GRAPHICS ARE EVERYTHING!' to '360 has more games!'

 

[SolidSnakex]

Gamecube will continue to sell for a while as a PSone like system, I imagine.

I'd imagine the system doing that would be the PS2. The GC has absolutely no momentum right now (despite Reggie's beliefs).

 

[cvxfreak]

I'd imagine the system doing that would be the PS2. The GC has absolutely no momentum right now (despite Reggie's beliefs).

Both GC and PS2, actually. GC will get to $50 before PS2 does, most likely.

 

[Hero]

Both GC and PS2, actually. GC will get to $50 before PS2 does, most likely.

What I was going to say.

 

[chespace]

Gamecube will continue to sell for a while as a PSone like system, I imagine. 59.99 price point perhaps.

Of course, by the time GCN does outsell Xbox, people like Chespace will have just moved on to say 'Xbox 360 sales are too much for PS3/Revolution to catch up!'

And when PS3 and Revolution are revealed, it will go from 'GRAPHICS ARE EVERYTHING!' to '360 has more games!'

Actually, I think Microsoft is jumping the next generation gun. It's a mistake for them to abandon Xbox so early, and I'm bummed they're (edit: effectively) doing so this year.

 

[Hero]

Actually, I think Microsoft is jumping the next generation gun. It's a mistake for them to abandon Xbox so early, and I'm bummed they're doing so this year.

So you can see my posts. Are you not going to reply to my earlier post and conceding defeat in your troll-ism?

I also think Xbox being abandoned will hurt them more than it will help them. Getting that Dreamcast vibe.

Maybe it'll prompt Xbox Nation 360 though. Gamepro isn't cutting it anymore.

 

[chespace]

So you can see my posts. Are you not going to reply to my earlier post and conceding defeat in your troll-ism?

I also think Xbox being abandoned will hurt them more than it will help them. Getting that Dreamcast vibe.

Maybe it'll prompt Xbox Nation 360 though. Gamepro isn't cutting it anymore.

What earlier post/troll thing are you talking about. Sorry, I'm kind of doing three things at once here so I'm a bit scattered.