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[mrklaw]

My crazy-arse TV has a 1280x720 panel, and component inputs. Lovely - all ready for Xbox 360 and PS3.

Nope.

It takes 480/576p and 1080i over component. No 480/576i, NO 720P!!

Now, aside from the stupidity of the manufacturer (philips), will xbox 360 let me play games using 1080i? Even though it'll probably upscale, then my TV will downscale...


Alternatively I need to buy a new TV (I'd need one eventually for Sky HD, but this one's only 18 months old)

 

[Suikoguy]

We don't know if the games are going to support 720p and/or 1080i

Until then, you will have to wait.

 

[aaaaa0]

The 360 will work just fine.

It doesn't matter what resolution the game renders in, the scaler will bump it up to 1080i for you if your TV only supports 1080i, if that's what you want it to do.

 

[sangreal]

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 offers choice for both the game developer and the end consumer. The game developer can create their game in any resolution. The consumer can request any output resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). The Xbox 360’s advanced video scaler will scale the game’s native resolution to the end consumer’s requested resolution with extremely high quality output.

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/

We don't know if the games are going to support 720p and/or 1080i

Until then, you will have to wait.

What don't we know?

 

[Suikoguy]

I guess we do know

 

[Sho Nuff]

Yes, so you had better go and buy yourself a 1080i if you wants the Halo 3 action

 

[Danj]

My crazy-arse TV has a 1280x720 panel, and component inputs. Lovely - all ready for Xbox 360 and PS3.

Nope.

It takes 480/576p and 1080i over component. No 480/576i, NO 720P!!

That's pretty crazy.. a TV that won't accept input in its native resolution? Weird.

Alternatively I need to buy a new TV (I'd need one eventually for Sky HD, but this one's only 18 months old)

When you buy your new TV for Sky HD, make sure it is officially labelled "HD Ready" (with the proper EICTA "HD Ready" logo and not just some crud that Dixons stuck on there, I've heard about people getting burned by their tactics in claiming that some TVs are HD Ready when they're not).

 

[123rl]

Dixons tried that with me :lol I was only in there looking at LCDs and they told me that any TV with component input was HD-ready...blatantly wrong

 

[PhoncipleBone]

My crazy-arse TV has a 1280x720 panel, and component inputs. Lovely - all ready for Xbox 360 and PS3.

Nope.

It takes 480/576p and 1080i over component. No 480/576i, NO 720P!!

Now, aside from the stupidity of the manufacturer (philips), will xbox 360 let me play games using 1080i? Even though it'll probably upscale, then my TV will downscale...


Alternatively I need to buy a new TV (I'd need one eventually for Sky HD, but this one's only 18 months old)

This is actually VERY VERY common. 720p is the exception, not the rule.

 

[mrklaw]

Danj, don't worry - I'm already staking out the AVForums.com LCD forum for prospective candidates.

I spend £2k on this screen (which is great at watching SD upscaled), and new better HD stuff at the same size is <£1k.

Tempted to get a larger screen - just depends if I can wait. At least I'll get my Xbox and sky and if they don't work at all then I'll need to upgrade more quickly.

 

[123rl]

Are you in the UK?
These Samsung sets are fantastic and they're insanely cheap. I know several people who have bought these and they are so impressed with them. Even at twice the price they'd be good value for money tbh

 

[mrklaw]

Are you in the UK?
These Samsung sets are fantastic and they're insanely cheap. I know several people who have bought these and they are so impressed with them. Even at twice the price they'd be good value for money tbh

Thats what I'd consider if I upgraded. Although I think the '51' models are out now, for similar pricing. The 40" is fairly tempting for £1700

The wife *would* kill me though.

 

[123rl]

The 51s and the 41s are identical iirc. There's also a version with a freeview tuner that's about £200 more.

 

[Fowler]

I have the newer/Asian version of those Samsung LCDs -- they're fantastic, definitely recommended.

 

[Beer Monkey]

This is actually VERY VERY common. 720p is the exception, not the rule.

Rapidly changing, but true.

Frankly, if you choose 1080i output on the X360, most games are still likely to use a 720p frame buffer anyway, with the console scaling the output to 1080i. So watching on a set like this will give you 720p>1080i->720p conversion. Definitely not optimal.

 

[mrklaw]

Rapidly changing, but true.

Frankly, if you choose 1080i output on the X360, most games are still likely to use a 720p frame buffer anyway, with the console scaling the output to 1080i. So watching on a set like this will give you 720p>1080i->720p conversion. Definitely not optimal.

That was my fear.

 

[Martini]

thats great information. afaik my tv only does 1080i on the hdmi.

 

[Martini]

sorry double post

 

[Sanjuro]

I saved a couple hundred at the time and skipped 720P. If you see all three at the same time 480P/720P/1080i the difference doesn't jump up by any means. Even if the XBOX does scale the games up for 1080i it should look much better regardless. You should be fine.

 

[Nerevar]

thats great information. afaik my tv only does 1080i on the hdmi.

xbox's internal scaler is analog (at least at most recent information), so you won't get output over DVI / HDMI - HD output will be component only. This is of course subject to change if they change the internal scaler to a digital solution, but that would be more costly and is highly questionable this late in the game.

This is also the reason that xbox360 will not upscale DVDs. The DVD forum mandates that any DVD-based HD output must be copy-protected, and the only recommended format is HDCP. That is a digital protection over DVI / HDMI. Since x360 is analog output only, no DVD upscaling.

 

[Beer Monkey]

xbox's internal scaler is analog

This doesn't make sense at all. Digital scaling is way cheaper to implement.

 

[Nerevar]

This doesn't make sense at all. Digital scaling is way cheaper to implement.

just repeating what's been said. I'll see if I can dig up where I got the info from. It was discussed a lot when people were talking about HDMI output from xbox 360, and there was a quote that more or less said xbox 360 wouldn't have digital output (and therefore wouldn't do upscaling for DVDs). It might simply be that the scaler chip does digital scaling but only outputs an analog signal. Even that doesn't really make sense though.

 

[Stinkles]

Frankly, if you choose 1080i output on the X360, most games are still likely to use a 720p frame buffer anyway, with the console scaling the output to 1080i. So watching on a set like this will give you 720p>1080i->720p conversion. Definitely not optimal.

Here we go again. With the HDTV snobs. Caveat - I understand that the "snobs" do know what they're talking about, but coming into HD threads and confusing the issue with almost wholly subjective opinions on systems and technologies that the poster invariably does not have - doesn't help.


1080i games look astonishing. They look fantastic. On your TV, it will look rad. How much better than say, the 480i everyone else is playing at? Exponentially. The 360 will work GREAT on your TV.

I get really aggravated with HD snobs because like Audiophiles - their solution to whatever your woes are, is that you buy 15,000 worth of new equipment. The reality is that HD gaming will look fucking astonishing on a $700 HD CRT.


Oh and one more thing - digital scaling of DVDs is totally trivial in terms of technology - but movie lawyers HATE it.

 

[3rdman]

This doesn't make sense at all. Digital scaling is way cheaper to implement.

Its analog but it can support all formats. A pure digital output (such as the PS3) would have to be outputted directly by the GPU but in order to support multiple resolution simultaenously, MS chose an external chip to do its scaling for flexibility reasons and analog for financial reasons.

The obvious positive is that more than one resolution can be supported for all games. The downside is that (because of the movie studios) you won't be able to upconvert DVD's or have HDMI.

MS has left the posibility open for a future upgrade because, unlike other systems, changing this chip still keeps compatibility at 100%.

 

[Oracle Dragon]

My crazy-arse TV has a 1280x720 panel, and component inputs. Lovely - all ready for Xbox 360 and PS3.

Nope.

It takes 480/576p and 1080i over component. No 480/576i, NO 720P!!

Now, aside from the stupidity of the manufacturer (philips), will xbox 360 let me play games using 1080i? Even though it'll probably upscale, then my TV will downscale...


Alternatively I need to buy a new TV (I'd need one eventually for Sky HD, but this one's only 18 months old)

Are you sure about this? What is the model of your TV? Every single LCD or Plasma HDTV I have seen is 720p. Unless you have an EDTV perhaps? Thats usually only cheaper Plasma that is EDTV, but Im sure there is the occasional LCD that does it to.

 

[StrikerObi]

My HDTV at home (Mitsubishi) will only take 480i/p and 1080i signals. It's pretty odd if you ask me. Supposedly a lot of their HDTVs don't do 720i/p.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Its analog but it can support all formats. A pure digital output (such as the PS3) would have to be outputted directly by the GPU but in order to support multiple resolution simultaenously, MS chose an external chip to do its scaling for flexibility reasons and analog for financial reasons.

We've got a semantics breakdown here. I thought we were talking about analog scaling, what we are talking about is a digital video scaling/decoding chip(s) with analog output.

It is still shortsighted, in my opinion. Hell, even the Gamecube has digital video output (yep, the digital A/V port has real digital video and audio, the $40 cable itself converts the quasi-DVI to component). MS keeps crowing about the 'HD era'. Their system should support HDMI, it is the new standard for HDTV interconnect - component video is obsolete. Hell, Hollywood isn't going to want their MCE extender to output any kind of high-def WMV without HDCP.

 

[Oracle Dragon]

My HDTV at home (Mitsubishi) will only take 480i/p and 1080i signals. It's pretty odd if you ask me. Supposedly a lot of their HDTVs don't do 720i/p.

Well yeah, thats the norm for any CRT or RPTV. But if you have an LCD, DLP, or Plasma (projection or otherwise) thats pretty unusual.

 

[Beer Monkey]

It's unusual but there are a couple of 720p chip-based sets that don't take 720p. It's a design flaw/oversight/whatever.

 

[Martini]

xbox's internal scaler is analog (at least at most recent information), so you won't get output over DVI / HDMI - HD output will be component only. This is of course subject to change if they change the internal scaler to a digital solution, but that would be more costly and is highly questionable this late in the game.

This is also the reason that xbox360 will not upscale DVDs. The DVD forum mandates that any DVD-based HD output must be copy-protected, and the only recommended format is HDCP. That is a digital protection over DVI / HDMI. Since x360 is analog output only, no DVD upscaling.

ah well then i guess i have nothing to worry about thanks for info

 

[DCX]

Hmmm...i got a TV, LCD 50" that native res is 720P, so that means everything HD that goes through this TV will be outputted to 720P? From 1080i to 480P?

DCX

 

[Beer Monkey]

Hmmm...i got a TV, LCD 50" that native res is 720P, so that means everything HD that goes through this TV will be outputted to 720P? From 1080i to 480P?

DCX

Yep, unlike some tubes, LCD/DLP/DILA/LCOS have only one native resolution.

 

[mrklaw]

Are you sure about this? What is the model of your TV? Every single LCD or Plasma HDTV I have seen is 720p. Unless you have an EDTV perhaps? Thats usually only cheaper Plasma that is EDTV, but Im sure there is the occasional LCD that does it to.

its a philips 30pf9975. It has a great scaler/deinterlacer for SD stuff. 1280x768 native resolution

It only takes 480p/576p/1080i over component. No interlaced component, no 720p. Argument for no 480i is that if you have a DVD player, that'll be 480p, or just stick with SCART (RGB in for Europe).

720p omission, I have no idea. I just know its pissing me off.

 

[sangreal]

This is also the reason that xbox360 will not upscale DVDs. The DVD forum mandates that any DVD-based HD output must be copy-protected, and the only recommended format is HDCP. That is a digital protection over DVI / HDMI. Since x360 is analog output only, no DVD upscaling.

I don't think this is accurate as the xbox 360 will support WMV-HD DVDs.

Also, from the interview I linked above:

Regarding DVD movie playback, will you upscale standard definition DVDs to 720p or 1080i like modern DVD players? Will the Xbox 360 play WMVHD DVDs?

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 will play high definition video in VC1 (WMVHD) format. We are currently evaluating upscaling standard definition DVDs, but have not yet confirmed it for launch.

 

[Danj]

Danj, don't worry - I'm already staking out the AVForums.com LCD forum for prospective candidates.

I spend £2k on this screen (which is great at watching SD upscaled), and new better HD stuff at the same size is <£1k.

Tempted to get a larger screen - just depends if I can wait. At least I'll get my Xbox and sky and if they don't work at all then I'll need to upgrade more quickly.

"What Video and Widescreen TV" magazine recently had a review of a bunch of HD Ready sets, you might find it helpful to track down a copy of that magazine. It also seems like native 1080 support is pretty rare, since only one of the bunch they reviewed had that as a native resolution.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Xbox 360 will play high definition video in VC1 (WMVHD) format. We are currently evaluating upscaling standard definition DVDs, but have not yet confirmed it for launch.

If Todd is right about this, then there will be an HDMI/HDCP cable available and all this talk about the analog-only encoder is bunk. Microsoft will not (unfortunately) pass movies in greater than 480p resolution. They are in bed with Hollywood and this is a hard restriction.

Unholy MS/Hollywood alliance

 

[3rdman]

If Todd is right about this, then there will be an HDMI/HDCP cable available and all this talk about the analog-only encoder is bunk. Microsoft will not (unfortunately) pass movies in greater than 480p resolution. They are in bed with Hollywood and this is a hard restriction.

Unholy MS/Hollywood alliance

I think he means in-game FMV's and NOT movie playback.

 

[Nerevar]

I don't think this is accurate as the xbox 360 will support WMV-HD DVDs.

Also, from the interview I linked above:

I believe it will support these because
a) the market is ridiculously small
b) they already can be played on players that lack HDCP content protection. This of course naturally leads to point a, as no movie studio wants to release HD content on a non-protected format.

Currently, the DVD forum mandates that output of HD signals be copyright protected. HDCP is a "recommended" copyright protection scheme. This is why upscaling DVD players have to use HDMI or HDCP-protected DVI. I'm sure MS wants to be an upscaling DVD player as technically there is no reason it couldn't do it. However, due to Hollywood restrictions, don't get your hopes up on it happening. MS wants to play nice with the studios because a large number are using Microsoft technologies exclusively and MS doesn't want to compromise those business deals.

 

[sangreal]

If Todd is right about this, then there will be an HDMI/HDCP cable available and all this talk about the analog-only encoder is bunk. Microsoft will not (unfortunately) pass movies in greater than 480p resolution. They are in bed with Hollywood and this is a hard restriction.

Unholy MS/Hollywood alliance

He says in the same interview that it won't ship with HDMI support but that they may make it available in the future (no indication if he means a seperate model or an AV pack)

I think he means in-game FMV's and NOT movie playback.

He most certainly meant movie playback. The question was: Regarding DVD movie playback, will you upscale standard definition DVDs to 720p or 1080i like modern DVD players? Will the Xbox 360 play WMVHD DVDs?

I believe it will support these because
a) the market is ridiculously small
b) they already can be played on players that lack HDCP content protection. This of course naturally leads to point a, as no movie studio wants to release HD content on a non-protected format.

Currently, the DVD forum mandates that output of HD signals be copyright protected. HDCP is a "recommended" copyright protection scheme. This is why upscaling DVD players have to use HDMI or HDCP-protected DVI. I'm sure MS wants to be an upscaling DVD player as technically there is no reason it couldn't do it. However, due to Hollywood restrictions, don't get your hopes up on it happening. MS wants to play nice with the studios because a large number are using Microsoft technologies exclusively and MS doesn't want to compromise those business deals.

Having done some research since my previous post it does seem you are absolutely correct. Though I don't know how to reconcile that with Holmdahl's statements.

On a related note, does anyone have any quotes from Microsoft on the analog output? I can't find anything other than speculation based on all the AV packs shown being analog. He was asked in the interview I linked above but avoided answering.