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[Starfield]

Just an interesting thought I had when I woke up today.
What if the Roman Empire never crumbled and went away and it continued its glory. They were technologically much more advanced than other civilisations and what followed in europe and other parts of the world was what we know as "the dark medieval ages".

What if we wouldn't have medieval ages but instead a progressive advancement in technology from there on out?

 

[nush]

We'd be more technologically advanced if an asteroid hadn't hit and melted the ice caps wiping out the ancient ones. They were more advanced than the Romans.

 

[FunkMiller]

Just an interesting thought I had when I woke up today.
What if the Roman Empire never crumbled and went away and it continued its glory. They were technologically much more advanced than other civilisations and what followed in europe and other parts of the world was what we know as "the dark medieval ages".

What if we wouldn't have medieval ages but instead a progressive advancement in technology from there on out?

I think the key thing is that the empire had long since left its glory days behind it by the time it all fell apart. It was the corruption and complacency that allowed the fall to happen.

However, had they avoided that degradation, and remained in the state it had in its glory days, then I see no reason why it wouldn't have continued, and yes, technological advancement probably would have happened at a faster pace.

 

[EviLore]

It's likely, yes. But the roundabout way civilization developed instead eventually led to the Enlightenment, which paved the way for the end of slavery, women's suffrage, egalitarianism, secularism, modern science, etc. We don't know if that would've happened within Roman culture, which was corrupt and decadent.

 

[Punished Miku]

There's a stargate episode about them finding other societies a bit more advanced than earth because they didn't have a dark ages. There's a ton of things we could have done differently in the world that might have added or subtracted a couple hundred years of advancement. I always enjoy historical what if fiction.

 

[ManaByte]

Imperator | MMORPG.com

Imperator was an alternate history/sci-fi MMORPG from Mythic Entertainment, announced as their followup to Dark Age of Camelot. It was set on an Earth in which the Roman Empire had never fallen and actually thrived into the Space Age amidst a threatened intergalactic peace. Mythic canceled...

www.mmorpg.com

 

[Tschumi]

I mean, Japan is full of , relatively speaking, space age equivalent medieval technology (just look at their super high tech traditional cuisine full of superfoods and novel textures; look at their badass swords; look at their armor; look at their traditional construction methods) so i guess, yeah, if we hadn't gone through the middle ages we might be further along by now, if only because the middle ages kinda gave religion a boost as a method of domination... yuh i guess i can agree that something woulda happened differently

 

[TheDreadLord]

Probably. Europe was technologically stuck for a few centuries after the Roman Empire fragmented.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

A more interesting question is how many colonies on Mars would we have by now if we didn’t have the 19th amendment, amirite??

 

[cheezcake]

I don’t think it’s likely. Necessity is the mother of invention, without the world wars would we have acquired the same level of industrial automation or nuclear energy?

 

[Sakura]

not likely.
Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse for a thousand years after that.
The dark ages are over exaggerated.

 

[Armorian]

not likely.
Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse for a thousand years after that.
The dark ages are over exaggerated.

I always wondered about byzantium, both western empire and this one was a shell of its previous self after christanity stared to regress creative people. This is only logical explanation.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Just an interesting thought I had when I woke up today.
What if the Roman Empire never crumbled and went away and it continued its glory. They were technologically much more advanced than other civilisations and what followed in europe and other parts of the world was what we know as "the dark medieval ages".

What if we wouldn't have medieval ages but instead a progressive advancement in technology from there on out?

As much as I hate the word, this is a flawed eurocentric view.

While Europe was going through the Dark Ages, the Califate was going through a golden era of cultural development. They developed a better number system and in fact the numbers as you know them, 0123456789 are arabic numerals, brought to europe by Fibonacci. They pioneered the scientific method and advanced in mathematics, astronomy and optics. The European Enlightement wouldn't have happend without the transference of arabic culture.

 

[Amiga]

human civilization is interconnected. nothing happens in one region in all eras. the cycle of rise and ruin is part of the process.
Rome dominated because it outmatched the competitors. the tribes in the north eventually got stronger and wiser. the once barbarian tribes built castles and formed nations that grew and expanded. there was no way for Rome to dominate them like they used to.

 

[EverydayBeast]

That’s what makes human civilization fun and makes the race unique.

 

[Amiga]

I always wondered about byzantium, both western empire and this one was a shell of its previous self after christanity stared to regress creative people. This is only logical explanation.

FYI domes and arches in Islamic architecture were based on Byzantine designs.

 

[Nobody_Important]

I've had this thought before, but I choose to believe that we would be way more advanced while still sticking with the Roman aesthetic. So I would be sitting here with my Quantum Entanglement Iphone 34 while wearing a toga and complaining about how I have to go to the temple tomorrow.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I think the key thing is that the empire had long since left its glory days behind it by the time it all fell apart. It was the corruption and complacency that allowed the fall to happen.

Rome, a city-state, was never supposed to be an empire. It kinda happened and then everyone decided to roll with it for the next few hundred years.

 

[synchronicity]

It's such a hard premise for me to consider. When you look at the cyclical nature of civilizations - their rise and inevitable fall - I can't foresee a scenario in which it would occur. Theoretically, sure, but in no reality I have observed would it be a real-world possibility. No state of being, individually or collectively, can be maintained. Prosperity is inevitably followed by collapse. It's just the nature of endless cycles of change.

 

[Starfield]

As much as I hate the word, this is a flawed eurocentric view.

While Europe was going through the Dark Ages, the Califate was going through a golden era of cultural development. They developed a better number system and in fact the numbers as you know them, 0123456789 are arabic numerals, brought to europe by Fibonacci. They pioneered the scientific method and advanced in mathematics, astronomy and optics. The European Enlightement wouldn't have happend without the transference of arabic culture.

And yet they still live in huts and try to climb up planes while they are taking off nowadays

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

And yet they still live in huts and try to climb up planes while they are taking off nowadays

The roman empire fell and so did the califate.

Doesn't change the facts, as I stated them.

 

[RJMacready73]

No as a single entity with no external threats it more than likely would've rested on its laurel's, the fact that most of Europe broke down into seperate constantly warring nation states is the the reason we are where we are technologically speaking, when you're constantly at war or conquering your neighbors you're always innovating... Well apart from that period where we all went a bit batshit crazy over the magical sky daddy

 

[Blade2.0]

It's likely, yes. But the roundabout way civilization developed instead eventually led to the Enlightenment, which paved the way for the end of slavery, women's suffrage, egalitarianism, secularism, modern science, etc. We don't know if that would've happened within Roman culture, which was corrupt and decadent.

So we could have planes with massive orgies and bath houses in them instead? We got fucked.

 

[AfricanKing]

I think losing the Library of Alexandria was a major set back in advancing the human race more than anything

 

[Lupingosei]

Rome, a city-state, was never supposed to be an empire. It kinda happened and then everyone decided to roll with it for the next few hundred years.

They had to expand because they made a crucial mistake in compensating their veterans.

After their service (up to 20 years), veterans should have gotten some land, but the rich landowners in the Senate did not want to give away any, so they had to expand and the more they expanded the more troops they needed.

The Roman Republic fell because the veteran problem was never resolved, so Caesar could take over. The Roman Empire fell because it was too slow to adjust to changes. Also, the late Roman Empire was nowhere near anymore, what the Empire during its hights was. They were not even able to maintain their infrastructure anymore.

So the question has to be, would the world looked different if the Roman Empire was not reigned by a bunch of corrupt politicians and inbreed Emperors. Yes, maybe. Under Augustus art and technical innovation were at their peak. The steam engine was not that far away and the middle class in Rome was actually existing. You can advance in society and the Roman way of life was adopted by their neighbors.

It took Europe almost 1800 years to reach the same average life expectancy and population density again.

 

[Blade2.0]

And yet they still live in huts and try to climb up planes while they are taking off nowadays

You forget that much of that region was destabilized by the western world on purpose. Can't leave out important details.

 

[rorepmE]

Yes, imagine if we had gladiatorial combat to the death? We can finally have an answer to the conundrum that is RFK Stadium.

 

[Artoris]

I don't think Roman Empire was a mayor advancement for mankind they mostly used Greek culture and technology inventing not all that much themselves, except the fine-tuning of Greek military principles and I don't think it collapsed it controlled far more land with the formation of the Catholic Church.

 

[Rentahamster]

Just an interesting thought I had when I woke up today.
What if the Roman Empire never crumbled and went away and it continued its glory. They were technologically much more advanced than other civilisations and what followed in europe and other parts of the world was what we know as "the dark medieval ages".

What if we wouldn't have medieval ages but instead a progressive advancement in technology from there on out?

Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of what ifs that shape the course of history.

What if the sea people didn't cause Bronze Age civilization to collapse that led to the Greek dark ages? What if the golden age of Islam kept on going because Genghis Khan was less of an asshole? What if Caliph Omar never destroyed the Library of Alexandria? What if China didn't become isolationist during the Han Dynsasty and fuck up their tech progress? What if Japan didn't become isolationist during the Tokugawa period and fuck up their technological progress?

Alternatively, one could also make the argument that since tech progress is on an accelerated pace, most of our advanced tech was developed only recently, and the only path to this could have potentially been through the development of a liberal democratic, uber capitalist country like America. With that being said, it might then follow that we could also find many examples in the modern age of missed opportunities. Did World War II cause us to become more technologically advanced or less? Would we have discovered nuclear fission if not for the Manhattan Project? Did the Cold War with Russia cause us to become more technologically advanced or less? Would we have bothered to go into space if not for the competition with the USSR? Did America's post-Cold War focus on global hegemony limit our technological progress in the last 30 years? If NASA's budget hadn't been slashed so much, think of how many more Hubble Telescopes we could have had by now. Think of how many more lunar missions we could have had that might have established a lunar base by now. Think of how many more Mars missions we would have had and how much closer we could have been to a Mars colony.

 

[Boss Mog]

Is this a serious question OP? Obviously we would; we literally lost 1000 years (the dark ages) because of the fall of the Roman Empire. The romans not only had superior technology such as cement, aqueducts, irrigation and sewer systems but were also at the forefront of modern style government with its senate. The sad part is that it's about to happen again.

 

[Armorian]

As much as I hate the word, this is a flawed eurocentric view.

While Europe was going through the Dark Ages, the Califate was going through a golden era of cultural development. They developed a better number system and in fact the numbers as you know them, 0123456789 are arabic numerals, brought to europe by Fibonacci. They pioneered the scientific method and advanced in mathematics, astronomy and optics. The European Enlightement wouldn't have happend without the transference of arabic culture.

Yep, Islam kept many of this stuff that was lost in Europe but eventually backwards religion beliefs destroyed that too.

I like movie: The Physician

FYI domes and arches in Islamic architecture were based on Byzantine designs.

Probably yes, but there is nothing mindblowing about Byzantine Empire, they just... were there for few hundred more years.

Is this a serious question OP? Obviously we would; we literally lost 1000 years (the dark ages) because of the fall of the Roman Empire. The romans not only had superior technology such as cement, aqueducts, irrigation and sewer systems but were also at the forefront of modern style government with its senate. The sad part is that it's about to happen again.

Without WW1 and WW2 we would still be ~Victorian era in technology most likely. Before agricultural revolution people were doing the same shit for thousands of years - they were hunters and gatherers (just like most of Africa before england came). Major events like wars and arms races develop technology in rapid speed. Maybe in alternate timeline still ongoing Roman empire would be just as stagnant in advances like China were for hundreds of years (and Europe in dark ages).

 

[Boss Mog]

Without WW1 and WW2 we would still be ~Victorian era in technology most likely. Before agricultural revolution people were doing the same shit for thousands of years - they were hunters and gatherers (just like most of Africa before england came). Major events like wars and arms races develop technology in rapid speed. Maybe in alternate timeline still ongoing Roman empire would be just as stagnant in advances like China were for hundreds of years (and Europe in dark ages).

There were plenty of wars during the dark ages so your reasoning doesn't hold water. Yes wars can advance tech more rapidly but only if there's scientists and engineers who are well funded. They are the most important factors which is why the US recruited Nazi scientists instead of killing them. Knowledge is power. Duriing the fall of the Roman Empire the barbarians killed all indiscriminately, killing most people that had important knowledge as well as burning books that contained important knowledge. Knowledge is far more important than war in bringing forth technological advancement. Capitalism made the desire to make money become the most important factor for advancement. This is why, despite there being no world wars, tech has advanced tremendously during the last 70 years. Everybody wants to go to Mars right now, but it's not as a testament to what humanity can achieve but rather because they feel they can make lots of money.

 

[Artoris]

Yep, Islam kept many of this stuff that was lost in Europe but eventually backwards religion beliefs destroyed that too.

I like movie: The Physician



Probably yes, but there is nothing mindblowing about Byzantine Empire, they just... were there for few hundred more years.



Without WW1 and WW2 we would still be ~Victorian era in technology most likely. Before agricultural revolution people were doing the same shit for thousands of years - they were hunters and gatherers (just like most of Africa before england came). Major events like wars and arms races develop technology in rapid speed. Maybe in alternate timeline still ongoing Roman empire would be just as stagnant in advances like China were for hundreds of years (and Europe in dark ages).

"Probably yes, but there is nothing mindblowing about Byzantine Empire, they just... were there for few hundred more years."

More like a thousand

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Yep, Islam kept many of this stuff that was lost in Europe but eventually backwards religion beliefs destroyed that too.

I like movie: The Physician

People get very defensive about this because of the whole roman empire - dark ages - enlightment narrative that centers the birth of the modern world squarely in Europe, but without the Califate golden age things would've been quite different. The proof is right there, still in English even, as the words Algebra and Algorithm amongst others are of Arabian origin. The Book of Optics by Alhazen was a revolution and that was written around the year 1000! Hell, they even translated to Latin classic Greek works and those translations were later distributed through out Europe. And this is all historically documented stuff, I'm not reciting the pseudohistory of Black Athena.

The whole thing about modern Islam nations being mostly backwater and poorly educated should not be considered a revenge or proof that "we" won, but rather a Cautionary tale against the dangers of fanaticism and ignorance, a tale that resonates even today.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

There were a few technologies lost, but I think people have an absurd view of how 'Roman Life' actually was.

 

[West Texas CEO]

but I think people have an absurd view of how 'Roman Life' actually was.

Didn't they all wipe their asses communally with a shared sponge?

Personally, I think the loss of Atlantis was bigger blow for civilization.

 

[daveonezero]

T

There's a stargate episode about them finding other societies a bit more advanced than earth because they didn't have a dark ages. There's a ton of things we could have done differently in the world that might have added or subtracted a couple hundred years of advancement. I always enjoy historical what if fiction.

he dark ages only happened in a very small area of the globe.

Other societies were thriving.

I think things like burning of The Library of Alexandria, Maoist revolution in China, destroying of antiquities in the Middle East and other destruction of knowledge and artifacts is way worse than the collapse of the Romans

It would actually help things if world powers got out of the way and actual studies could be done on a lot of things.

 

[synchronicity]

Is this a serious question OP? Obviously we would; we literally lost 1000 years (the dark ages) because of the fall of the Roman Empire. The romans not only had superior technology such as cement, aqueducts, irrigation and sewer systems but were also at the forefront of modern style government with its senate. The sad part is that it's about to happen again.

It will *always* happen again.

 

[SidViscous]

It depends, there are too many things that came after which had a larger impact.

If the Romans ruled a world at peace with no world wars, then no, we wouldn't even have microwaves.

 

[Kraz]

Makes me wonder what Hero's Engines we have now. Always looking at curiosities and wonder what is missing to make something practical.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Eh, it wasn't like Rome fell instantly. It was a long gradual process. The Empire stagnated and then declined. The Western Empire was a backwaters by time it finally officially "fell". That's why the Eastern Empire didn't give enough of a shit to reclaim it. And it's not like that knowledge really faded away. As others said, the Eastern Empire lasted another 1000 years doing jack shit just being stagnate. There weren't enough societal pressures and motivations to advance society forward during that time.

And the "Dark Ages" is kind of a misnomer anyway. It was actually a fascinating time in Europe's history where tons of societal changes happened. It wasn't some black spot devoid of development. It is the period where Europe finally began to develop outside of tribal rule.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

I've had this thought before, but I choose to believe that we would be way more advanced while still sticking with the Roman aesthetic. So I would be sitting here with my Quantum Entanglement Iphone 34 while wearing a toga and complaining about how I have to go to the temple tomorrow.

Pfft, Your ass would have used a teleporter.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Pfft, Your ass would have used a teleporter.

But then you have to physically move yourself from where you are to the teleporter. Then you have to be copied and deconstructed. Then you gotta walk like a whole 60ft to the altar.


If the gods want me to worship them then they should let me do it at my villa. Julius Christ.

 

[DeepBreath87]

 

[Nobody_Important]

Blood Angels?

 

[Hari Seldon]

I mean there were people calling themselves Romans in the 15th century. Also the fall of the western Roman Empire only affected Europe, not China, India, Japan, Africa, the Americas.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

But then you have to physically move yourself from where you are to the teleporter. Then you have to be copied and deconstructed. Then you gotta walk like a whole 60ft to the altar.


If the gods want me to worship them then they should let me do it at my villa. Julius Christ.

Cyber Julius Crystius.

 

[BadBurger]

There's no way of knowing, but chances are we'd all either speak Italian natively or at least know it as a second language.

 

[haxan7]

People get very defensive about this because of the whole roman empire - dark ages - enlightment narrative that centers the birth of the modern world squarely in Europe, but without the Califate golden age things would've been quite different. The proof is right there, still in English even, as the words Algebra and Algorithm amongst others are of Arabian origin. The Book of Optics by Alhazen was a revolution and that was written around the year 1000! Hell, they even translated to Latin classic Greek works and those translations were later distributed through out Europe. And this is all historically documented stuff, I'm not reciting the pseudohistory of Black Athena.

The whole thing about modern Islam nations being mostly backwater and poorly educated should not be considered a revenge or proof that "we" won, but rather a Cautionary tale against the dangers of fanaticism and ignorance, a tale that resonates even today.

Nations didn’t exist in a vacuum even back then. The Arab world and Europe intermingled well before the dark ages ended, I can guarantee you. You are stuck on a certain “anti-narrative” designed to paint western culture as the oppressor, and everyone else as a weak and oppressed people. The truth takes more emotional understanding to suss out from all the noise.

 

[darrylgorn]

We would be more advanced if the Romans remained a Republic instead of becoming an autocracy.