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Writing-GAF: Writing, Publishing, Selling |OT|

Mike M

Nick N
You already know my advice. :p And I know you have specific reasons you can't do an online group. But I think you might find it's easier to find solutions to those obstacles than it is to find solutions to the in-person group obstacles.
If it's any consolation, I'm beginning to come around to your point of view. The advantages of face-to-face meetings are great indeed, as are the difficulties in finding/forming/joining a reliable online group that I will be able to work into my schedule. But I think it self-evident that I've reached a tipping point where I'm currently not getting what I want or need such that the upsides to in-person meetings kind of evaporate.

Anyway. Assuming you don't do that, a few thoughts. It sounds like there's a fundamental conflict between you and the main organizer (and most of the members) over the structure and purpose of this group. She wants it to be something more like the GAF writing challenges. You want it to be more like an actual critique group. This is an irreconcilable difference, and I think your best option at this point is to just bail.
I don't know if it's a conflict between me and most of the members so much as they're being railroaded into participating since she sets the agenda and calls the shots. The end result is the same, though, so I guess it's a moot point.

This can be difficult when it's something you've put this much time and energy into, trying to help out others and build something cool. But if you're not getting what you want out of it, and if others don't want the things you want, it's just a sinkhole for mental energy.

So. What to do after bailing? Well, the most straightforward way to find a group that does what you want is to start your own group. It's not clear from your follow-up post whether you're keeping on going with your spin-off meeting or if it was just a temporary thing. But it sounds like a great place to start (and don't feel bad about "poaching" people--if your new group works better for them than the old one did, then all is as it should be). You could get a solid core to a critique group with only four or five people, though I'd probably want to build up to a few more than that, maybe seven or eight, so there's regular material and enough crits. I'd probably run it along the lines of the online crit group guidelines I've posted before; all those things work really well to make things run smoothly in person as much as online.
The spin off thing was intended to be temporary and allow different people in the group to cycle through with their own books in the hopper. But now, fuck it, I wash my hands of it. It's not worth the hassle trying to help people work together in a framework for it when all they want is for people to read *their* stuff and not have to pull their own weight.

The critique group guidelines where people break their stuff up into 20K word chunks is what the current spin-off group is based around. But the vast majority of stuff I write is only short stories every couple weeks, so I don't know how great that will work out. Plus, I absolutely do not have the time to read 20K words from seven or eight people every other week. I could probably try and carve out my own hybrid approach where I read as much as I can and let people know what I thought of what I got through, but Idunno.

We've had dozens of people cycle in and out of meetings with this group, and no one has my staying power or dedication, and it frustrates the shit out of me because I don't know how to recruit talent. I know you've recommended making connections at conferences, but price of attending those things remains an obstacle for me, and I'm not exactly a gregarious person.

I did, however, join the Pacific Northwest Writer's Association, and they have free workshops for members to attend. I plan on hitting up at least a few of those, it may be an alternative for me to explore.

As far as skill levels, I hear you. The ideal would be to find a group where you're somewhere in the middle, so you can learn from the other folks. On the other hand, people who aren't on your level can still give excellent critiques. You might have to nudge them into looking at things in the way most helpful to you, ask the right questions, etc. But it can be done!

Hopefully the other group you're checking out is decent. If it's another meetup.com thing, I dunno. Seems like not the best venue to start this kind of thing.

Yeah, it's another Meetup group : / I realize it's not the best means of accomplishing what I'm trying to do, and probably deserve some falsely attributed Einstein quotes about insanity being doing the same thing and expecting different results, but god damn it, finding and/or starting a group is fucking hard.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Edit: just read that you're turning around to online groups. But I am curious as to how much of a benefit you find in real person meet up?
 

Mike M

Nick N
That's definitely way too much. My group that does novels only does one at a time. So usually four sessions dedicated to a single novel in 20-30k chunks, then a break for a meeting or two dedicated to short stories (no more than three per meeting, generally), then on to whoever's next on the novel schedule. This works really well if you've got a dedicated group of folks who trust each other. Obviously if people bailed from the group as soon as their novel was done, it'd fall apart pretty quickly.

This is still fairly time consuming--it takes me a decent chunk of time to read that much if I'm taking notes as I go--but it's pretty doable. (Though you'll note that my frequency of giving crits in the writing challenge went way down once I joined this group. Which is a function partly of time but also of having less of that type of mental energy to spare.)

Yeah, that would make a lot more sense! Heh.

I don't write *books* though, generally speaking. I guess I could just compile all the shorts I write until my turn came up, but then I find myself between the horns of "do I trust my own ability to polish these up and submit right away" and "do I sit on them for ages and await people's feedback to improve them."

I beg to differ on the latter point. You've always come across as a friendly guy to me. :p

Well yeah, because you know me : P Striking up a conversation with a stranger, even when I have a reasonable pretext? Fucking nightmare fuel for me, I'm terrible at networking.

Do you have a laptop, or another means of getting online somewhere besides home? iPad, something at a local library, a friend's house? Just spitballing here.
Yeeeeah, I've considered that. I could haul my laptop someplace, but it doesn't have a wireless plan or anything, and most public wifi networks are pretty shit in my experience and probably couldn't handle a Hang Out or Skype call.

I'll figure something out, I'm sure.
 

DD

Member
First post here in this lovely thread. I'm going through the "write through fear and doubt" stage at the moment. Fear because I'm a Christian using the Bible's mithology and characters to create a futuristic fiction book, worrying about heresy and stuff... and doubt because I firmly believe that my writing sux. But how can I get better without practicing, right? :p
 
Mike, you're in Seattle? If you find another group and want another fellow GAFer, I'd be more than happy (I've been toying with joining a group for over a year now...) to join up somewhere as more of a critiquer than a content producer.
 

Mike M

Nick N
Mike, you're in Seattle? If you find another group and want another fellow GAFer, I'd be more than happy (I've been toying with joining a group for over a year now...) to join up somewhere as more of a critiquer than a content producer.
I live in Marysville, so it's a little bit of a trek from Seattle proper if that's where you're out of.
 

xandaca

Member
Never noticed this thread before, but as an aspiring novelist thought I'd pop in to say hello, hopefully make some sort of worthwhile contribution and a bit of shameless self-promotion.

I started writing seriously at university, probably around 2010/11, finally putting pen to paper (or, you know, the word processor equivalent) after spending a good couple of years fitting together a plan for an eight-part series of action thrillers. I wrote two of them, one of which is in its seventh draft (the first one, natch) and the second of which has barely been touched since the first draft was finished. In the year after uni, I send them out to a number of agents, but with no success, spent what remained of my student living grant (thanks to not drinking/smoking or having any interest in parties, I managed to live on a relatively miniscule budget) on getting my book professionally assessed and critiqued. I was expensive, but definitely worthwhile in terms of teaching me about improving the tightness of my plotting, point out certain tics and stylistic flaws I'd adopted (particularly mixed metaphors, which were happening a lot, and the main character being knocked unconscious at the end of three chapters in a row, which... yeah). The subsequent four-odd years, in between 'real' work, I've been gradually working towards getting the book to a state where I'm happy to try again, which I'm hoping to achieve this year, as well as beginning the editing process on the series' second entry.

In the meantime, and here's the self-promotion bit, I also wrote a twenty-part serial on my old blog and finally got around to self-publishing it last year. I also wrote an extensive piece on what it was like to write a serial and the challenges faced along the way, which was included in a slightly more expensive 'special edition' of the book. While the writing is clunky in places - typos and grammatical errors aside, I wanted to leave it largely as it was when serialised, which was pretty much one draft and an edit - it's something I'm quite proud of overall. Given it wasn't promoted at all, as that side of self-publishing is something I know nothing about and am grateful to this thread for informing me a little more - sales were pretty much non-existent, though I mainly put it up there for the satisfaction of having something published in my lifetime should nothing else go through. It's called Dead Drop and you can read a couple of extracts here or buy it from Smashwords here. The story itself is about 62k words long, plus another 10k for the 'making of' in the special edition. If you read any of it, hope you enjoy it. If you go whole hog and buy it, huge thanks (and also hope you enjoy it). I'll be raising the price to $2.99 / $3.49 shortly after the sequel comes out, FYI, but there's some way to go until then.

Right now, I'm working on a sequel which will most likely be released this fall - the original aim was for May, marking one year since I started working on it, but while I could get it out by then, would rather take additional time editing, producing a good cover, finding out how to promote it properly and just generally getting it right rather than rushing to hit an arbitrary for no particular reason. The book's length is also running longer than expected, as by my original plan it would've been finished by now.

Anyhow, a few pieces of advice I've personally found useful over the years learning my craft, so to speak. This mostly applies to thriller writers, but hopefully will be useful to others as well. Having not been professionally published, this is obviously all amateur advice, so give it as much credence as you deem fit.


  • Keep the prose simple, aka 'don't overwrite'. Descriptions are fine, but giving an impression of a room/person and leaving the rest to the reader's imagination is far more fulfilling and effective than detailing every nook and cranny. Similarly, pared-down writing reads more professionally than prose which drowns its readers in adjectives and adverbs. For me, a writer's voice comes through an elegant communication of perspective rather than reams of unnecessary description. Also, unless you very obviously need to specify a character's voice being raised or lowered, just used 'said' when someone is speaking. Too much of anything else gets distracting.
  • For ideas, consider themes or topics which interest you. Probably obvious, but if you're stuggling for a plot or interesting characters, writing to theme can be invaluable. Whether you're struggling to define your place in the world, debating a prominent social issue or even something smaller and more intimate, the ideas you are personally exploring can often be easily converted to things that can be explored in your stories and characters as well. Plus, you might even answer a few of your own questions.
  • End chapters on a cliffhanger. Not necessarily a big one, but leave a little teaser for events to come. Easy way to encourage readers to keep going.
  • Keep the opening chapter short. Honestly, I didn't heed my own advice for Dead Drop, whose opening chapter is the longest one in the book (and probably suffers for it) but in general I like using the opening chapter as an unofficial prologue so the reader feels like they're getting to the essence of the book quickly and without too much effort.
  • Don't threaten to kill a protagonist for suspense. Very thriller-specific, but readers aren't stupid: they know that in 99% of circumstances, a protagonist isn't going to die at the very least until the end of the story. That means your big moment of suspense in the middle act is kind of wasted space. Instead, think about threatening something the protagonist needs (the macguffin, for instance) and would make their life significantly more difficult if it slips beyond their grasp. It also makes their eventual success in their objective more satisfying if they've really been put through the wringer in ways specifically related to whatever it was they had to achieve.

Hope that's helpful!
 
I wish I had the luxury of knowing most of my story in my head again. I thought about the story to my first book so much that my writer's block were very minimal. My newest novel I'm struggling with, but i think a lot of that is because I've taken such a long break from writing. The two years that I spent getting my bachelor took up a lot of my time and there were more distractions too. I'm struggling to get back in here. I'm currently stuck on how to advance my plot.
My worry is that by knowing so much, I have to make the story take that course, and maybe it doesn't want to all of the time. I don't want the plot to feel forced, and it probably doesn't and I'm just being stupid.

/shrug
 

Cream

Banned
So, I'm writing a comedy, and I have faith in myself on that front.

But, one thing that is required for my concept is that one of the main characters has a disease that will kill him soon. I find myself having trouble wrapping my mind around introducing this disease into the family's life, while not making it so comedic that it's ridiculous, but also not too sad. for obvious reasons.
 
So, I'm writing a comedy, and I have faith in myself on that front.

But, one thing that is required for my concept is that one of the main characters has a disease that will kill him soon. I find myself having trouble wrapping my mind around introducing this disease into the family's life, while not making it so comedic that it's ridiculous, but also not too sad. for obvious reasons.

Skip straight over the introduction of the disease to the "using black humor to cope" phase? Reader first learns of the disease through a one-two punch of horribly dark joke followed by the realization they weren't joking?
 

Mike M

Nick N
Told my book critique spin-off session that I was bowing out of the group at large, and they all felt the same as I do and have agreed to just stick together as a critique group going forward once we wind down our involvement in the main group.

That was easy!

(lastflowers, if you seriously want to make a biweekly trek to Everett, you're welcome to check it out once we cut the cord)
 
So, I'm writing a comedy, and I have faith in myself on that front.

But, one thing that is required for my concept is that one of the main characters has a disease that will kill him soon. I find myself having trouble wrapping my mind around introducing this disease into the family's life, while not making it so comedic that it's ridiculous, but also not too sad. for obvious reasons.

Not that you have to do it exactly, but I think 50/50 might be some good inspiration, at least as far as dealing with the severity of the situation. Or, like the other poster suggested, cut to the black humor stage and it'll probably be fine too.


edit: Submission question--how many places do you send one submission simultaneously? Do you find it overwhelming to have one story going to 10-20 places at once, or is it manageable? I guess this is dumb, but I dread notifying tons of places if my simultaneous submission has to be withdrawn. I should be happy knowing a work is getting published but I really fucking hate emails.
 

Cream

Banned
Skip straight over the introduction of the disease to the "using black humor to cope" phase? Reader first learns of the disease through a one-two punch of horribly dark joke followed by the realization they weren't joking?

Funny, this is the exact idea I got just before reading your post. Going to have the family silently sitting around awkwardly, and the terminally ill character will make a joke.
 
Awesome! Glad to hear it. Be sure to keep us posted on how things go. :)



What sort of writing are you doing that places allowing sim-subs are this common?

Really? A lot of the presses I've seen for short fiction allow sim-subs. Hell, the one I'm doing my graduate assistanship at does.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
edit: Submission question--how many places do you send one submission simultaneously? Do you find it overwhelming to have one story going to 10-20 places at once, or is it manageable? I guess this is dumb, but I dread notifying tons of places if my simultaneous submission has to be withdrawn. I should be happy knowing a work is getting published but I really fucking hate emails.

Eh I don't usually do simultaneous submissions, at least not for a story that i'm first sending out. I tend to wait for at least five rejections from single places before I start simultaneously submitting something. My reason for this is just because I am terrible at organization and hate backtracking through emails once something is accepted to notify the other places. I've recently had to do that with a piece and it's just a pain. When i do have something I send to multiple places at once, i tend to keep it from 2-5 places and rotate accordingly.

Just gonna give a big pimp out to Duotrope, it's basically a big ass database of markets for about five bucks a month. They also have some usability options which are pretty helpful, but I've pretty much ignored all of them because (again) terrible at organization. Whenever I do a sim submission for a story, I just chose a couple at random from the database. I've had mixed results.
 

DD

Member
Guys, I have a problem. I've written 70 pages until now. I've started some books before, only to let them die, thinking that they're not good enough. Then I made some short stories just to practice, and them I came up with a story that I believe it's worth trying. I refuse to give up on this one, because If I don't finish this project, I'll probably feel like shit (more than I already feel everyday :p). So... I'm refusing to giving up. I believe that the story is good, but my writing is bad, but that I can fix with a lot of practice, and reading good stuff. My main problem now is: I don't have a main character. The story is told by different points of view, following different characters, and they are all chasing this little girl. This girl is the most important character in the story, yes, but she knows nothing (on about how to act, who she is, what she wants, who to trust, what to do...). She's just a girl that appeared out from nothing in the middle of Tokyo, knowing absolutely nothing about nothing, an the story goes on with everyone trying to get their hands on her.

Yeah, she is the main character, but the story follows the path mostly of other characters, so I can't see people sympathizing with her, because her mind is confused and empty, and specially because she makes some weird and bad stuff like hurting a cop, for an example, and the story follows more the secondary characters. Do you guys have any hint on how to solve this problem? ;(
 

Mike M

Nick N
Guys, I have a problem. I've written 70 pages until now. I've started some books before, only to let them die, thinking that they're not good enough. Then I made some short stories just to practice, and them I came up with a story that I believe it's worth trying. I refuse to give up on this one, because If I don't finish this project, I'll probably feel like shit (more than I already feel everyday :p). So... I'm refusing to giving up. I believe that the story is good, but my writing is bad, but that I can fix with a lot of practice, and reading good stuff. My main problem now is: I don't have a main character. The story is told by different points of view, following different characters, and they are all chasing this little girl. This girl is the most important character in the story, yes, but she knows nothing (on about how to act, who she is, what she wants, who to trust, what to do...). She's just a girl that appeared out from nothing in the middle of Tokyo, knowing absolutely nothing about nothing, an the story goes on with everyone trying to get their hands on her.

Yeah, she is the main character, but the story follows the path mostly of other characters, so I can't see people sympathizing with her, because her mind is confused and empty, and specially because she makes some weird and bad stuff like hurting a cop, for an example, and the story follows more the secondary characters. Do you guys have any hint on how to solve this problem? ;(
Sounds like you problem might be that the girl is not actually the main character so much as the subject of your book. There's nothing wrong with a book that gives relatively equal weight to multiple protagonists (i.e. no one's really the main character in the Song of Ice and Fire books.).
 

DD

Member
Sounds like you problem might be that the girl is not actually the main character so much as the subject of your book. There's nothing wrong with a book that gives relatively equal weight to multiple protagonists (i.e. no one's really the main character in the Song of Ice and Fire books.).

Hmm, maybe the real problem is the way I've built the characters. I can't see any of 'em as a hero to cheer for. That's the problem. I don't have a main character, nor I have heroes for the reader to cheer for.
 
I think you then have to characterize the people chasing her. Why are they doing what they are doing? Readers have to root for the characters they are following, but they do have to view them as three dimensional.
I hope you have a thematic premise. Think of it like no country for old men: everyone thinks Llewelyn is the hero of the novel until McCarthy subverts the action hero tropes by having his death off focus. It is with his death that the reader realizes both the severity of the villain to overcome the genre's tropes, but also to frame the novel within a different context. It is actually sherrif bell who underlines the theme: humanity is capable of such evil that even the heroes simply cannot adapt.

Bells various sidelined conversations immediately become vastly important, and the small bits of characterization Deeply enrich the novel.

With your story, what does the framing of the narrative say about the characters, the thematic content, and the plot as a whole? What does the lack of focus on the 'good guy' enable you to enrich? Most novels follow the protagonist, so what does your deliberate choice to stray away from that mean? (Only seen the movie) Gone girl specifically plays with the viewers inability to determine whether affleck is guilty. Flynn uses that as the scaffolding to fill in the blanks regarding the actual plot. In the end you realize they're both pieces of shit, but nonetheless you were glued to the screen to figure out WHY they were so screwed up.

Keep in mind this is all verbal spew and written on mobile
 
Guys, I have a problem. I've written 70 pages until now. I've started some books before, only to let them die, thinking that they're not good enough. Then I made some short stories just to practice, and them I came up with a story that I believe it's worth trying. I refuse to give up on this one, because If I don't finish this project, I'll probably feel like shit (more than I already feel everyday :p). So... I'm refusing to giving up. I believe that the story is good, but my writing is bad, but that I can fix with a lot of practice, and reading good stuff. My main problem now is: I don't have a main character. The story is told by different points of view, following different characters, and they are all chasing this little girl. This girl is the most important character in the story, yes, but she knows nothing (on about how to act, who she is, what she wants, who to trust, what to do...). She's just a girl that appeared out from nothing in the middle of Tokyo, knowing absolutely nothing about nothing, an the story goes on with everyone trying to get their hands on her.

Yeah, she is the main character, but the story follows the path mostly of other characters, so I can't see people sympathizing with her, because her mind is confused and empty, and specially because she makes some weird and bad stuff like hurting a cop, for an example, and the story follows more the secondary characters. Do you guys have any hint on how to solve this problem? ;(

How long is your story? If you have a tight plan you will need to rejig things a bit at some stage (but only when you are done writing it!) to keep it focused and get the message across.

If it is open ended in your mind? Just keep going and it'll work itself over time as you discover who the main characters really are. We all face that "where is this shit going?" Moment. Push through.

Just don't release it in parts and become famous and then spend years while you work it out.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Anyone else notice their writing's kinda coincide with their moods? I'm normally write pretty depressing stories, but this month has been terrible and i've noticed a lot of my stories have just gotten dark and seem to just want to end on hopelessness.

Also what's more depressing? Killing off a character or leaving them to despair? I've always prefered the later.
 

Ashes

Banned
Anyone else notice their writing's kinda coincide with their moods? I'm normally write pretty depressing stories, but this month has been terrible and i've noticed a lot of my stories have just gotten dark and seem to just want to end on hopelessness.

I tried to get more attune with my writing a couple of years ago; during a nanowrimo I thought I would write the low parts when low, and write the high parts more when feeling high etc... Experiment failed. Didn't work.

But I think this is because I write from a distance. There is nothing of me in any story I write. *consciously* that is. I explore subject matter and test characters so to speak.
 

Timu

Member
Anyone else notice their writing's kinda coincide with their moods? I'm normally write pretty depressing stories, but this month has been terrible and i've noticed a lot of my stories have just gotten dark and seem to just want to end on hopelessness.

Also what's more depressing? Killing off a character or leaving them to despair? I've always prefered the later.
Killing them off to prevent further development into them, I killed off some important characters in my novels and it had a huge effect on the plot and characters.
 
Anyone else notice their writing's kinda coincide with their moods? I'm normally write pretty depressing stories, but this month has been terrible and i've noticed a lot of my stories have just gotten dark and seem to just want to end on hopelessness.

Also what's more depressing? Killing off a character or leaving them to despair? I've always prefered the later.

Maybe regarding word choice and stuff, but the plot points themselves are mostly unaffected. I'll pretty much always know if something is bleak and depressing or light and fun before I even start writing.
 
Anyone else notice their writing's kinda coincide with their moods? I'm normally write pretty depressing stories, but this month has been terrible and i've noticed a lot of my stories have just gotten dark and seem to just want to end on hopelessness.

Also what's more depressing? Killing off a character or leaving them to despair? I've always prefered the later.

Unfortunately mood primarily dictates if I write at all.

If I don't feel good, it isn't going to happen.
 
Hey Writing Gaf I'm kind of new to writing stories but an old teacher of mine convinced Me to try and type out a novel idea I've been thinking of. Any of you want to give me feed back? I'd really appreciate it.
 
As a test, I made Freeze Kill free for a day without making that known anywhere but Twitter. Got 72 downloads. I'd like to think that's standard for essentially zero advertising. I imagine those downloading mostly consist of people browsing the free section, a large chunk of which are supposedly hoarders that will never get to the books they own.

Obviously could be wrong on that one. Maybe that's way below average or maybe it's fine for the genre. It's data either way.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
As a test, I made Freeze Kill free for a day without making that known anywhere but Twitter. Got 72 downloads. I'd like to think that's standard for essentially zero advertising. I imagine those downloading mostly consist of people browsing the free section, a large chunk of which are supposedly hoarders that will never get to the books they own.

Obviously could be wrong on that one. Maybe that's way below average or maybe it's fine for the genre. It's data either way.

How is self publishing (assuming you're talking about ebook) I'm thinking of self publishing a collection of short stories but don't really know how ebooks or self publishing works.
 
How is self publishing (assuming you're talking about ebook) I'm thinking of self publishing a collection of short stories but don't really know how ebooks or self publishing works.

Yeah, self-publishing.

There are A LOT of pros and cons with it compared to traditional publishing to the point people have written entire essays on it, including the OP of this thread.

While there are some frustrations with getting an ebook up, it's FAR easier than going the traditional publishing route just by virtue of anyone being able to do it. Just follow the steps in the OP. Write the story->edit->get cover->format for Amazon/Smashwords/whatever->write blurb->put book up. Yeah, you'll have to sign a bunch of stuff at Amazon, maybe connect a bank account, stuff like that, but that's relatively simple.

As far as commercial reception goes, that's obviously going to vary from person to person. It's INCREDIBLY unlikely that you'll make a living off it with self-publishing. Hell the same could be said for traditional publishing to a lesser extent. However, like all indie ventures, actually going the self-pub route will involve some costs that a publishing company won't cover (obviously). After two books, I'm still way in the red. Even with advertising, many self-pub authors don't even reach double digits in sales.

So while being traditionally published can put you just barely in the black, going indie is a much bigger risk. Of course the former could take years to accomplish for a single story while with self-publishing, you could churn out several in the same time period.

So yeah, it's a risk either way. If you don't feel you've wasted your time and/or money, go for it.
 

xandaca

Member
Hey again writing gaf, one of you guys gave me excellent feedback last night so I was wondering if some more of you would be willing to do the same today. Like I said before I'm just getting into this cause a teacher of mine said so so if I'm rough please let me know lol. Here is a link to my story:

http://www.booksie.com/action_and_adventure/novel/thatonedice/cutlass/chapter/1


thanks again! Also my grammar is horrible.

I gave the first chapter a quick read. The biggest positives are that you write good dialogue, the concept is interesting and you seem to understand the value of a concise sentence. All three are very strong points in your favour. The downsides, which you seem to be aware of judging by the last line of the post I quoted, is that there are a ton of punctuation problems, typos and dodgy grammar, making it difficult to read. Everything else is just small nitpicks related to stuff like sentence composition, which can be sorted out in a couple of redrafts: my advice is to read your work out loud to yourself so you know which parts flow naturally and which bits don't. Long story short, your teacher is right to encourage you to keep going as you've got all the foundations for producing something really cool - your knack for dialogue in particular, which can be a big obstacle if it doesn't come naturally - but please, please, please work on all the technical issues I mentioned (punctuation, typos, etc). Well done on getting started and good luck. It's definitely worth pushing forward with.

Maybe pick a slightly punchier name for your legendary pirate than 'Wade Hawkins' though. It's personal opinion, of course, but after the big build-up, the name felt a bit weak.
 
How does that compare to standard daily sales when it's normal priced?

Increase by 72. I'll get a sale maybe once a month, which is why the Book Gorilla promotion that netted me around 130ish sales was so exciting. Without any kind of expensive promotion, I might get around 10 sales during a Kindle Countdown deal.

This is all for Freeze Kill. Haven't tested it with The World Beyond the Rain yet as that only released a few weeks ago.
 
Oh, I see. That's a little disheartening. :/

Thanks for sharing your numbers.

Yeah, it sucks, but it's not dissuading me from writing. In a month, I'll be starting my fourth book, and hopefully in a few months, my third one will be out. I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

Though with my life getting less stable as of late, I may have to cut down on my daily word limit :/. Editing, adjustments based on feedback; even when everything's "done", writing is damn time-consuming.

Would be nice if I could live on 2 hours of sleep like sirap (who STILL hasn't responded to my post).
 
I gave the first chapter a quick read. The biggest positives are that you write good dialogue, the concept is interesting and you seem to understand the value of a concise sentence. All three are very strong points in your favour. The downsides, which you seem to be aware of judging by the last line of the post I quoted, is that there are a ton of punctuation problems, typos and dodgy grammar, making it difficult to read. Everything else is just small nitpicks related to stuff like sentence composition, which can be sorted out in a couple of redrafts: my advice is to read your work out loud to yourself so you know which parts flow naturally and which bits don't. Long story short, your teacher is right to encourage you to keep going as you've got all the foundations for producing something really cool - your knack for dialogue in particular, which can be a big obstacle if it doesn't come naturally - but please, please, please work on all the technical issues I mentioned (punctuation, typos, etc). Well done on getting started and good luck. It's definitely worth pushing forward with.

Maybe pick a slightly punchier name for your legendary pirate than 'Wade Hawkins' though. It's personal opinion, of course, but after the big build-up, the name felt a bit weak.


Alright thanks alot! I will definitely work on my sentence structure and everything else you mentioned probably around tomorrow. And several people have told me the name is a little weird so maybe I should start to rethink it.
 
Increase by 72. I'll get a sale maybe once a month, which is why the Book Gorilla promotion that netted me around 130ish sales was so exciting. Without any kind of expensive promotion, I might get around 10 sales during a Kindle Countdown deal.

I received almost the exact same results when testing with paid advertising. Something like 60 odd up from one a month.

I think the lesson is you will either need to spend money to shift units (which probably isn't going to be worth it), or have an existing marketing method built up (like 5000 twitter followers which takes years of effort and is relatively much more expensive).

Or just get incredibly, incredibly lucky.
 
You shouldn't take free downloads as a measure of anything. People will download free shit religiously and you'll never see a single sale for it. It's the sucker game as far as Amazon is concerned. No offence intended.

There is already the 10% sample anyway with ebooks, so making your work free is just inviting the grave robbers early. Similarly with pricing, in my opinion. A few years ago, a guy named John Locke (not to be confused with the empiricist) was heralded as having sold a million units. Which is genuinely great, until you look at how.
His price was / is 1 dollar for every single novel, meaning that he uses the 30% royalty (1 to 2.99 USD, 3 to 9.99 is 70%), so that before taxes he made a total of 300k. 200k after taxes (which is 30% minimum) over a multi-year period of time. That sounds like a lot, sure.

But then there is "the very rich indy author" by the name of Amanda Hocking, who has also reached the million+ territory around the same time. She sold her novels at 2.99 to 4.99, meaning she gained 70% right off the bat. She made at least 2 million before taxes (less than 1.4M after obviously) versus Locke's "impressive" 200k. So she made five times what he did, with the same amount of sales. And that was just first the million. I imagine she has sold a similar amount, if not more, since then.

That's why the erotica 'spammers' (my opinion obviously) price at 2.99. Because less than that means: "I want to be fucking robbed". Putting your shit up for free (one book in a series) is used by people who have many serials running. Even Hugh Howey has a free version of the first Wool story, because people will buy more of what they know, but then you're going to need to have a lot more so you can afford that loss.

If you're not a serial writer, it's probably best not to play this game.


Which is of course why Amazon want ebooks to become cheaper. So they can use the numbers without having to pay a lot more.
Consider: 1M times 0.7 is 700k, 1M times 0.3X3 is 900k. They don't make real profit on the 2.99 to 9.99 range compared to the other ranges. Their profit range is either less than 2.99 or above 9.99 (which is also 30% for self publication).
In a per-unit profit analysis, they would immediately see their margin (versus paying people that is) is a lot bigger for the 1 dollar suckers.

Insert Robocop line.

edit: I feel like I've made this post before. It also should be noted that I was only referring to how this system works, not to an individual.
 
How do you guys approach writing out IM conversations? I have a few in what I'm currently working on, and I mostly hate formatting it like an actual IM convo, with the screen names first, a time stamp, and then the text. I'm trying to avoid it, since I guess I hate the look if nothing else.

But I also know that paragraphs go out the window when IMing, at least when I do it. Type a word > hit enter > type a sentence > hit enter

I tried doing that but keeping things separated via quotes:

"text
"text
"text text"

Though that might be confusing to some.Not sure I'm sold, at any rate.

How have you guys gone about this? I'm kind of tempted to just write it out like normal dialogue.

Anyone else notice their writing's kinda coincide with their moods? I'm normally write pretty depressing stories, but this month has been terrible and i've noticed a lot of my stories have just gotten dark and seem to just want to end on hopelessness.

Also what's more depressing? Killing off a character or leaving them to despair? I've always prefered the later.
Yeah. I tend to not have this fall into my long form stuff, but anything short, like a few page story or poetry will get infested with depression if I'm having a particularly bad week.
 

Mike M

Nick N
How do you guys approach writing out IM conversations? I have a few in what I'm currently working on, and I mostly hate formatting it like an actual IM convo, with the screen names first, a time stamp, and then the text. I'm trying to avoid it, since I guess I hate the look if nothing else.

But I also know that paragraphs go out the window when IMing, at least when I do it. Type a word > hit enter > type a sentence > hit enter

I tried doing that but keeping things separated via quotes:

"text
"text
"text text"

Though that might be confusing to some.Not sure I'm sold, at any rate.

How have you guys gone about this? I'm kind of tempted to just write it out like normal dialogue.

Depends on what I was doing with the draft. If I had any intention to submit it anywhere, I'd stick as close to manuscript format as possible, but would not use quotation marks since those denote spoken lines in most instances. Probably something like this:

Username 1: Blah blah blah

Username 2: Blah blah blah

Maybe at *most* set the exchange apart in a block quote.

If I was responsible for the final formatting, I'd probably style it like a smart phone text message conversation and play with the margins to crowd the text on alternating sides of the center of the page.

I don't think there's ever really a need for time stamps unless it's intrinsic to the story (I.e. a chat log has a seven hour gap in which one of the participants is eventually revealed to have murdered someone or something). I view it as being kind of like writing out dialogue in transcript format, it's not the appropriate format for a narrative.
 
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