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WSJ/NBC Poll Shows Trump Approval Rating RISING After MSM/Democrat Meltdown With Russia

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
He certainly hasn't hesitated to "get tough" with Iran and NK though.

Seemed to work out OK with North Korea. I'm still on the fence about the Iran strategy. Different strokes for different folks.

Historically speaking, Russia should be our best buddy, relative to our relationship with NK and Iran.
 
D

Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
He was at 38% on election night.

538's data only goes back to January 23rd. Is there a separate dataset from election night that you can link me to?

It doesn't exactly help your case if he had a big bump between election and inauguration and then a slow decline since then.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
538's data only goes back to January 23rd. Is there a separate dataset from election night that you can link me to?

It doesn't exactly help your case if he had a big bump between election and inauguration and then a slow decline since then.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/189299/presidential-election-2016-key-indicators.aspx

The point is that high 30s is good enough to get him elected as president, so if you don't want him to get reelected, you probably want his approval rating below that come 2020. Assuming nothing else changes.
 
D

Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member

That's just one poll. We've been discussing the aggregated and weighted numbers from 538 up to this point.

The point is that high 30s is good enough to get him elected as president, so if you don't want him to get reelected, you probably want his approval rating below that come 2020. Assuming nothing else changes.

That's not how elections work. The most popular candidate (in approval, and by vote count) doesn't necessarily win. His margins in the states that put him over the edge were low, and he got killed in the popular vote. We can't really assume anything about how 2020 is going to go, based solely on approval poll data, unless we see some considerable swings, and even that only paints part of the picture.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
That's not how elections work. The most popular candidate (in approval, and by vote count) doesn't necessarily win. His margins in the states that put him over the edge were low, and he got killed in the popular vote. We can't really assume anything about how 2020 is going to go, based solely on approval poll data, unless we see some considerable swings, and even that only paints part of the picture.

I mean, it's not like I disagree with you on this point.
 
Party over country.
I would say more ideology over country.

Globalism is not a cup of coffee for a lot of people - I mean what's the reason to have an alliances if the single China can do whatever it want and nobody can do anything against it due to tight economical ties? Small countries benefit - they have no power to force their goods on the market and globalization allows them to do that. As with the illegals they can produce the goods cheaper (low wage countries) which increases profits. But as a trade-off globalism leads to migrations from smaller countries to bigger and more development ones as small countries simply cannot sustain the same level of luxury as highly developed - at the same time the coming people might be as good as those who already exist in the country - so basically only low wage workers bring huge profits to metropolis and businesses in that regard. In addition the countries with higher wages and more expensive goods - for reasons - lose because they cannot escape objective issues like more expensive resources. Eventually it becomes something akin Bronze Age - countries are specialized in certain things and union of those countries creates a chain. Collapse one - and chain reaction will lead to instability in others and so on. Generally globalism lead to development of other countries at the expense of some others.

Imperialism is simpler - enrich yourself using colonies.
 
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All Hail C-Webb

Hailing from the Chill-Web
A whole lot of discussion about Trump's chances in 2020, when these polls have no relevance to that.
Whether Trump has a chance of being reelected (or even running again) in 2020 will come down to Mueller's findings. Until then, Trump's approval among Republicans will continue to grow the worse he does.

That's really what these polls show. Democrats have hated him from the get, and there's still done room for it yo go lower.
Moderates (who would be the deciding factor), approval of Trump fell 6% since the last poll. That would be devastating to reelection chances if it was happening soon. There's also plenty of room for it to go down further when he continues to act against America's best interests.

His approval rating among Republicans is the real story, and it's rather tragic. How does one come back from this if it turns out Trump colluded, or is owned by the Russians? To be so wrong, about something so important? I don't think that many of those weak minded people will be able to accept it.
 

Super Mario

Banned
Party over country.
Let's look past all of the internet expert opinions on the grass always being greener on the side theory. Beyond a viable 3rd party which definitely presents a better system. Beyond a non-partisan candidate that will magically have all of the correct interests in mind. Past that, exists the real world. Democrats and Republicans present two polar opposites. Each party had plenty of candidates to choose from to decide where Americans wanted that party to head. The DNC was rigged. The RNC chose Trump. That base is expecting Republican policy, molded by Trump. They have received Republican policy, molded by Trump. There is no perfect system, regardless of what the internet says. Republicans got pretty darned close to what they asked for.

Polls are a complete joke. Stop taking them seriously. While we are on this topic, they are a great comparison to all of the "scientific, cited," facts we post on this site. Small sample sizes, different demographics, and biases, all to be taken as "fact". Stop. Just stop.
 

zelo-ca

Member
Is racism greater than patriotism?

As expected Obama was embattled President because most people in red states were never going to accept he was one of them or believe worthy of the office.

Now enters Trumps into office with no race factor. He has practically handed the USA over to Russia and not a peep out these people. If anything they are still for Trump.

These red blooded, red meat eating, proud Americans should be ready to burn to capital down but they are not even mad.

Maybe they have a different belief in how the government should be run than you?
 
got killed in the popular vote.

He got killed in California's popular vote. But since the electoral college is a contest of 50 individual popular votes, it doesn't matter if he loses one state by 3 million or 3,000. All he has to do is win most of the battleground states again like Ohio etc. and he'll be reelected. I don't think the democrats have anyone that can realistically compete for the rust belt against Trump.
 

Roni

Member
I'm not a US citizen, but I do follow US politics closely because I'm into the culture of the US.

My outsiders perspective is that the Republicans needed a win, badly, so they accepted a candidate they didn't fully understand. A populist candidate who likes making promises he can't keep and who barely knows how actual politics work, but a candidate who understands human psychology and knew how to tap into the angst of a large portion of the American people.

Russia has always been about meddling with US elections, except they actually had a shot at succeeding in 2016. And they did.

Now America is stuck with a president no educated person wants, even the Republican party, but the Republican party itself is unwilling to give up ground to solve the real problem. As a result, sane Republicans have to govern around the wreck that Trump is at the same time they toe the party line.

Trump keeps raking in gaffe after gaffe, while Republicans try and find a way to make it all work while Democrats are trying to figure out how to stop the bleeeding by retaking Congress.

If Democrats take the House and the Senate, which is plausible, then the good ol' stalemate between the White House and Congress will be reinstated. Which might be better than what is currently happening. I don't know, or it may make the country even worse and more divided.

Either way, know the world is watching and that we're counting on you not fucking this one up. I much prefer the US in command of the world rather than Russia.

Godspeed
 

All Hail C-Webb

Hailing from the Chill-Web
I'm not a US citizen, but I do follow US politics closely because I'm into the culture of the US.

My outsiders perspective is that the Republicans needed a win, badly, so they accepted a candidate they didn't fully understand. A populist candidate who likes making promises he can't keep and who barely knows how actual politics work, but a candidate who understands human psychology and knew how to tap into the angst of a large portion of the American people.

Russia has always been about meddling with US elections, except they actually had a shot at succeeding in 2016. And they did.

Now America is stuck with a president no educated person wants, even the Republican party, but the Republican party itself is unwilling to give up ground to solve the real problem. As a result, sane Republicans have to govern around the wreck that Trump is at the same time they toe the party line.

Trump keeps raking in gaffe after gaffe, while Republicans try and find a way to make it all work while Democrats are trying to figure out how to stop the bleeeding by retaking Congress.

If Democrats take the House and the Senate, which is plausible, then the good ol' stalemate between the White House and Congress will be reinstated. Which might be better than what is currently happening. I don't know, or it may make the country even worse and more divided.

Either way, know the world is watching and that we're counting on you not fucking this one up. I much prefer the US in command of the world rather than Russia.

Godspeed
You seem to have a better understanding of our political system than many 'insiders.'

The thing that gets ignored in threads like this, but is ultimately the only thing that matters; The Mueller investigation.

If Mueller finds nothing concrete on Trump, he'll be reelected in a landslide.

If Mueller finds something, then Trump won't be reelected (or will be impeached).

As for polling:
The base has made it clear that their cognitive dissonance knows no bounds. If bad news comes out, their support will increase.

Democrats have fluctuated slightly depending on the news, but they will be out in droves to vote for anyone but him.

Moderate approval actually dropped 6% from the previous poll. That's a huge #. If that # drops further, Republican politicians will need to rethink their stance on Trump.
 
D

Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
He got killed in California's popular vote.

Yes, he also got killed in California's popular vote. California has a lot of people that live there. Same with Massachusetts, Illinois, and New Jersey. Meanwhile, Hilary got killed in Alabama, Indiana, Kentucky, and Texas, among others. Lots of people live there too. People with voices and opinions that matter.

There were large margins of victory across many states, and for both sides. It's not like everywhere else was roughly equal. You can't just pin it all on California (although I'm sure trying that makes it more palatable for some).

But since the electoral college is a contest of 50 individual popular votes, it doesn't matter if he loses one state by 3 million or 3,000.

I know how the electoral college works, thanks.

I don't think the democrats have anyone that can realistically compete for the rust belt against Trump.

The victories in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania were incredibly tight. Not sure why you'd have so much confidence in a guaranteed repeat in those places.
 
Now America is stuck with a president no educated person wants, even the Republican party,

Trump actually won the college educated white vote. And his approval rating remains high in the Republican party.


If Democrats take the House and the Senate, which is plausible

They have a chance to win the house, but the odds of Democrats retaking the Senate are quite low. On paper, it's technically possible, but I would bet on the GOP keeping the Senate all day. Due to the specific seats that are up, the odds heavily favor the GOP.
 
Prove to me that it was based off punditry instead of rigorous analysis of polling data. Please have a debate with Nate Silver, so we can then all acknowledge that you actually know literally nothing about how poll aggregating works. The fact is that the Trump team itself thought it was going to lose on election night due to what internal polls were showing, which is why Trump started leaking plans for creating a Trump media corporation. 538 gave him the best odds before the vote, and 1 out of 3 was the most accurate analysis when your opponent is going to win the popular vote by 3 million people, yet you barely squeak out a win by 10-30k margins in various swing states.

I already linked why the probability wasn't plausible.

Further, statisticians led by Nate Silver seem to have missed the discovery of option theory more than 100 years ago and ignore simple analytical tools that one should use when forecasting binary elections. With high uncertainty, probabilities are closer to 50/50, but such public statisticians can’t stand what they deem as imprecision (and want to sell newspapers).

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nass...election-win-was-no-black-swan-191857463.html

Silver does this instead:

FiveThirtyEight’s probabilities are based on the accuracy of polling averages in presidential elections dating back to 1972. That is, our models are based on how accurate polls have or haven’t been historically, instead of making idealized assumptions about them.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...rump-a-better-chance-than-almost-anyone-else/

In truth, what they're doing is different from how the social scientists typically do this and is more for public consumption. Most scholars use variables like approval ratings, economic indicators, and horse race polls to make their prediction and have been doing so for roughly 40 years. What 538 does is mainly for clicks:

https://www.vox.com/2016/6/14/11854512/trump-election-models-political-science

In reference to your facts, where did you hear 538 gave Pres. Trump the best odds? Maybe you meant out of the polling-based models that do weighting and averaging?

Why do you think what Trump's team thought about their chances is relevant?

Why do you think 1 out of 3 is the most accurate analysis of who will win the presidency before the election is held based off Hillary getting 3 million more votes or the margin in various swing states being small? I don't get what you mean by that.

At the end of the day, this opinion article effectively sums up how Silver covered all the possibilities:

No matter who wins the presidential election, Nate Silver was right

And don't forget what he was doing in the primary:

One Big Reason To Be Less Skeptical Of Trump

Simply put, if you eliminate the incentive for clicks and educate the public free of charge, then Nate wouldn't contort to keep your attention while covering his rear end. I think it would be better for America if the noise was kept out of the public sphere. It doesn't help you. It just confuses you and lulls you into seeing certainty that isn't there.
 

Roni

Member
Trump actually won the college educated white vote. And his approval rating remains high in the Republican party.

Yeah, he did, but back then no one knew how his presidency would go. Most people were giving the guy benefit of the doubt. Sure, the media and most democrats called it - and they turned out to be right, but we couldn't be sure. The most cynical thought Trump was just putting on a show and that, after he won, the normal guy would show up. That never happened and now, after everything Trump has been through, it's safe to say he doesn't know what people look for in a leader.
 
Yeah, he did, but back then no one knew how his presidency would go. Most people were giving the guy benefit of the doubt. Sure, the media and most democrats called it - and they turned out to be right, but we couldn't be sure. The most cynical thought Trump was just putting on a show and that, after he won, the normal guy would show up. That never happened and now, after everything Trump has been through, it's safe to say he doesn't know what people look for in a leader.


But his support among those people who elected him is still high. So it's a false narrative to claim there is buyer's remorse. Democrats might hate him even more than before the election, but that's because he's actually fulfilling campaign promises the democrats hoped he would compromise or abandon.
 

Dabaus

Banned
Dude, you are simply wrong. I remember Buzzfeed News a day before the elections having Hillary at 98-99% chances of winning and Nate Silver being attacked as aiding Trump lies because he predicted 81%... of Hillary winning. Nate Silver was actually the only exception.

Polls are often used to influence public opinion, I've noticed this in every country where the ruling class doesn't like the candidate or a referendum option, the polls are always "miscalculated" against them. The same happened during the Brexit, the same happened in Spain iirc, the same happens everywhere.


For the record I don't care about Trump's numbers or tbh the discussion here, I'm mentioning this because I'm interested in obvious propaganda tactics by corporations and their owners to influence public opinion. Polls can be manipulated extremely easily either by fudging statistics through creative math or just using the right kind of word or phrase in a poll question. Do not trust polls, corporations are not your friends and just like they do with corporate media they will use every chance they get to manipulate you.




This x 10000
 

McBigs

Neo Member
Why won't all those racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamophobic, low-IQ, inbred, uneducated flyover country REPUBLITARDS vote the way I tell them to...?

God, I hate them all so much. Everything is their fault.
 

Arkage

Banned

All this guy says is that it was a 50/50 probability, and then mocks everyone else who might say otherwise, which is basically everyone else except this guy. A 50/50 probability is a meaningless non-statement, and not what Silver, nor any campaign, nor any polysci academic creating a model for elections would find to be a reasonable, nor helpful, predictive statement.

In truth, what they're doing is different from how the social scientists typically do this and is more for public consumption. Most scholars use variables like approval ratings, economic indicators, and horse race polls to make their prediction and have been doing so for roughly 40 years. What 538 does is mainly for clicks:

https://www.vox.com/2016/6/14/11854512/trump-election-models-political-science

A poll aggregation is a method based upon the accumulation of direct evidence of voter intent on a state-by-state and national basis. When there is a candidate as disruptive to the system as Trump, one can make a valid argument that poll aggregates are going to provide a better picture of reality than the generic models used in academia that rely upon traditional candidate templates. Per your link:

"This is a black swan election," Erikson says. "The economy is middling, the president is around 50 percent approval, so that suggests a close race. But there is variance due to the candidates, and both Clinton and Trump can have big effects."

In other words, these models are built for generic, typical candidates like John McCain or Mitt Romney, who are well within the Republican mainstream on immigration, not someone who thinks a guy with Mexican ancestry who was born in Indiana is unfit to judge him in federal court and who wants to ban all Muslims from entering the United States.

More generally, some forecasters argue that open-seat races are harder to predict than incumbent reelection years. "Presidential approval, quite understandably, is a weaker predictor when the incumbent is not running," Campbell notes. Campbell's research with collaborators Bryan Dettrey and Hongxing Yin confirmed that both presidential approval ratings and economic factors are less influential in open-seat contests. "In open-seat contests," they write, "economic effects on the vote were consistently weaker and never achieved statistical significance."

Economic effects never achieved statistical significance in open-seat contest, and Presidential approval is weaker, and far less influential indicator. Huh, those are exactly the things you said a good method requires to predict the 2016 election! How about that! And of the 2016 models, only 3 out of the 10 were more accurate than 538 concerning total vote percentages, which had a median error of .7 according to James Campbell (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...on-forecasts/47D0EEDD5030B5F152AEB9B92A94DCE1).

urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170413091016-38435-optimisedImage-S1049096516002766_tab1.jpg


And what's more, the vast majority of these models only predict popular vote totals, which as we can was not a useful metric for this particular election. All but two of them had Hillary as the favorite due to those popular vote totals. To be snarky, 2/10 models in favor of Trump puts his odds even lower than 538 had them ;D Let's get back to your original claim:

538's models and corresponding analysis attempted to give off a particular impression that Pres. Trump was going to fail in his bid for the White House. They eroded people's trust in poll analysis and misused statistics.

You're implying the modelling and analysis was trying to give an "impression" in some nefarious way. Define impression. A motivated impression? Motivated by what? Polling averages, based on past accuracy, period. They weren't saying "Trump is going to fail in his bid for the White House." They said "according to a reasonable interpretation of polls, Trump has less chance than Hillary to win." This is you inserting words into their mouths to create a strawman. You can say people shouldn't put their trust in polls to determine the Presidency to begin with, but that is neither here nor there as 538 is clearly appealing to people who are interested in polls and value the aggregation of polls into broader claims. And aside from this, the OP was about a single approval rating poll, and 538 is clearly a better option in determining the current approval rating of the President.

You also have literally no evidence to show 538 "eroded people's trust in poll analysis." A near 1 in 3 chance is not a determination of loss, which they had clearly stated multiple times. I went into election night thinking Trump had a decent chance - not great - of winning. I knew which states were weakest and most likely to flip for him. How misleading, eroding my trust! Jesus, dude.

Your claim that they "misused statistics" is also conveniently vague. Exactly how did they do this, when they made it clear they were a poll aggregate based strictly upon polls and poll accuracy?
 
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All this guy says is that it was a 50/50 probability, and then mocks everyone else who might say otherwise, which is basically everyone else except this guy. A 50/50 probability is a meaningless non-statement, and not what Silver, nor any campaign, nor any polysci academic creating a model for elections would find to be a reasonable, nor helpful, predictive statement.



A poll aggregation is a method based upon the accumulation of direct evidence of voter intent on a state-by-state and national basis. When there is a candidate as disruptive to the system as Trump, one can make a valid argument that poll aggregates are going to provide a better picture of reality than the generic models used in academia that rely upon traditional candidate templates. Per your link:



Economic effects never achieved statistical significance in open-seat contest, and Presidential approval is weaker, and far less influential indicator. Huh, those are exactly the things you said a good method requires to predict the 2016 election! How about that! And of the 2016 models, only 3 out of the 10 were more accurate than 538 concerning total vote percentages, which had a median error of .7 according to James Campbell (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...on-forecasts/47D0EEDD5030B5F152AEB9B92A94DCE1).

urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170413091016-38435-optimisedImage-S1049096516002766_tab1.jpg


And what's more, the vast majority of these models only predict popular vote totals, which as we can was not a useful metric for this particular election. All but two of them had Hillary as the favorite due to those popular vote totals. To be snarky, 2/10 models in favor of Trump puts his odds even lower than 538 had them ;D Let's get back to your original claim:



You're implying the modelling and analysis was trying to give an "impression" in some nefarious way. Define impression. A motivated impression? Motivated by what? Polling averages, based on past accuracy, period. They weren't saying "Trump is going to fail in his bid for the White House." They said "according to a reasonable interpretation of polls, Trump has less chance than Hillary to win." This is you inserting words into their mouths to create a strawman. You can say people shouldn't put their trust in polls to determine the Presidency to begin with, but that is neither here nor there as 538 is clearly appealing to people who are interested in polls and value the aggregation of polls into broader claims. And aside from this, the OP was about a single approval rating poll, and 538 is clearly a better option in determining the current approval rating of the President.

You also have literally no evidence to show 538 "eroded people's trust in poll analysis." A near 1 in 3 chance is not a determination of loss, which they had clearly stated multiple times. I went into election night thinking Trump had a decent chance - not great - of winning. I knew which states were weakest and most likely to flip for him. How misleading, eroding my trust! Jesus, dude.

Your claim that they "misused statistics" is also conveniently vague. Exactly how did they do this, when they made it clear they were a poll aggregate based strictly upon polls and poll accuracy?

It's simple.

538 and many other players in the media gave the impression that Trump had a much smaller chance than Hillary Clinton of winning the 2016 election and making it out of the primary to win the GOP nomination. It wasn't just group think, but in my eyes malpractice.

In terms of the presidential election, the odds given were not plausible due to high uncertainty and other successful election models suggesting otherwise. The odds the media provided in favor of Clinton was too excessive throughout the race as well as too stochastic over time to provide useful information to the general public.

If you read 538, despite Silver's postmortem argument that I linked, then many were very surprised Hillary Clinton lost. It wasn't because they just missed the fact that she was a polling error away and that Trump had a 1 in 3 chance of pulling off a upset according to 538. That's what guys like Silver attempt to argue, but here's the truth.

The big reason why people were so surprised/traumutized is because 538 and others failed in their reporting on a event that was uncertain. They weren't able to get outside of the media's bubble that pushed back against Pres. Trump. These folks know uncertainty is tough to deal with and much of the general public has a tough time understanding probability. Therefore, when people see a number like 85% vs. 15%, then they think it's effectively a done deal. When the public sees dramatic swings over time, then correspondingly your audience gets confused looking for answers: https://nyti.ms/2aoX4dG

The reason why this happened is because the incentives for the media are perverse. If you report the odds as roughly 50/50 over time to convey a tight race until the election is right around the corner, then the narrative would've been different. Your confidence can now properly elevate the odds to 70%, 90% or whatever your model claims for the candidate. Presumably, engagement would collapse and no one would refresh everyday to see how the odds of winning are moving. Remove the incentive to be seen by as many eyeballs as possible and profit, then the media would get back to the goals they pretend to care about like the truth and raising awareness.

Now I'd be willing to wait and see if the media decides to make significant changes on how they handle elections, but seeing how they've acted under the leadership of Pres. Trump I don't see why Americans should have faith. The gov't should step in to keep the useless noise out the public domain.

Remember elections are important. The last thing folks need is the fake news media turning elections into a circus in order to make a buck and get attention. People shouldn't be making a living off the exploitation of the ignorance of others. That's why to me this episode was a misuse of stats. People with no conscience lulled folks into seeing certainty that didn't exist.
 
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