Hari Seldon
Member
Maybe this is potential payback to get Putin to fall in line on North Korea.
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WSJ: Pentagon Offers Plan to Arm Ukraine, Trump not yet briefed on plan
- Thread starter Tovarisc
- Start date
it's pretty amazing that america's historically awful track record with proxy wars and regime change can never be brought up when talking about any specific conflict
can't wait to hear the excuses when we go to war with iran
Its almost like Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan etc.. are completely different situations obviously the most important is Russia started the war not us.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
If Germany and France's oil interests are the key factor in one's argument, it's disingenuous to not also consider the USA's oil interests as it pertains to this situation as well.
Pointing out a historical pattern of misbehavior in order to avoid future mistakes of a similar fashion is also known as learning from history.
Red Arremer
Member
Because that worked out terribly well with Saddam, the Taliban, et all...
Can't you see? This time it's totally different and will definitely work.
Appeasing dictators sure has worked out in the past. Wonder whats next after Putin gets what he wants from Ukraine when the west shows they are divided and won't stand up to him.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
"not starting proxy wars = appeasement" is a troubling right wing hawkish foreign policy characterization of this situation.
do you think we should invade crimea and go to war with russia directly?
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
Ok, so what should be the approach be? Given that Russia will not acknowledge that they're, you know, fighting a fucking war there?
You can't have diplomacy talks because Russia says it's not involved. Sanctions are a problem because of its supply of energy to Europe.
Arming Ukraine to at least fight and make this war become more expensive and costly in terms of lives for Russia seems to be the best bet.
3 years of diplomacy has failed, how long do you continue trying the same thing when it continuously fails?
Little late for that one, giving Ukraine weapons seems like a good enough response. Creating things like the NATO Very High Readiness Joint Task Force being ready to quickly respond to little green men scenarios also seems like a reasonable response.
Mr. E. Yis
Banned
Well, does the EU or any country in the EU have any solutions, or any ideas in general, to help the Crimea issue at all? I mean, it's been more than a few years since it was invaded, and the only thing EU did was the equivalent of McCain-furrowed-brows in that general direction.
I'm glad after all this time someone stands up to Russia to do what's right, and especially shocked that it is the U.S. thinking about doing these actions at this point in time.
With this issue and the EU trying to counter the sanctions, the EU talks tough to Russia, but is actually very placating and subservent, due to oil. Just like the horrible relationship between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Do you really think the negative consequences of such an action aren't going to be that bad?
70 years of imperialism has failed
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
"Hey let's try a strategy this time that doesn't have a track record of continuously failing!"
"How about starting proxy wars?"
:/
The joke is that those don't have a stellar track record of success either
Should tell Putin that one, seems like hes winning.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
"seems" is the key word here.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
When did I say they weren't going to be that bad?
This is strictly about what options are on the table. I'm pointing out that Russia will not admit it's involved in this conflict. So how do you pursue any kind of diplomacy in that scenario? And given that Europe is already looking for counter-measures against U.S. sanctions, part of which exist because of what's happening in Ukraine, it's clear that you're not going to have what normally happens in these cases which is a lot of international pressure and sanctions to get Russia to end their involvement.
So where do we go from there?
By the way this is 100% on Russia. They were the instigators of this and they continue to insult the intelligence of the global community by saying they aren't, and never were, involved.
They shot down a fucking passenger plane. People should be getting tried for war crimes here. Instead, we yelled at Russia for a bit and then when Europe realized its energy pipelines could be cut off, they sat the fuck down. Everyone else just kind of forgot about it.
Sky hi approval ratings, weakening of EU-US, US-NATO relations lots of wins for him... Not seeing losses here for Putin. Yeah the sanctions might have hurt Russians but they still love him.
Resident_UA
Member
It's been happening for about 10 years, but EU and the US are just realizing Putin started it.
ClosingADoor
Member
I'm not really against this, but I might miss some geopolitical fallout possibilities.
Russia can counter by blocking Ukraine from natural resources and other exports. But that also means they block the EU countries from receiving gas. And Russia kind of needs their payments to keep things running. So... who blinks first in that case.
Russia can counter by blocking Ukraine from natural resources and other exports. But that also means they block the EU countries from receiving gas. And Russia kind of needs their payments to keep things running. So... who blinks first in that case.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That's the implication if you think it's the "best" bet.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
What's the strategy behind leaking something like this? Make it harder for Trump to say no since it's public?
KernelPanic
Member
Trial balloon
Cold War 2.0, just to reflect the encompassing nature of the situation.
Turbo Killer
Member
Yeah appeasement really worked out the last time, didn't it?
darkistheway
Member
Title the memo: Operation Trump Attack Force. He'll sign it.
Ah yes, NATO's expansion is appeasement. To me, it's pretty insane how there is zero reflection on US hegemony and a sole focus on Russian aggression without giving it any context.
theechrisfox
Member
Cool. Always wondered what a US civil war taking place on a different continent would be like.
niccoolnic
Member
"President Trump nice inaugural crowd size. U.S.A loves Trump. The FAKE NEWS media won't bring Trump down. Also we want to arm Ukraine. #MAGA"
Anything more might be too confusing for him.
Ukraine is already unstable. This wouldn't even be a thing if Russia wasn't engaging in an illegal conflict in Ukraine to destabilize it. Whether or not a US picks a dog in a fight, Russia is going to continue to press.
NATO is a voluntary defensive agreement. It can expand wherever the fuck it wants to. The question is why Russia has such a problem with it. (Hint: it'll keep them from engaging with other countries like it has Ukraine).
But it can't expand wherever it wants to because is it a defensive alliance against Russia. That's the whole point. In Russia's eyes it's aggression and has been since the United States expanded the US-led alliance eastward in the 90's.
You can make a claim that it's defensive but that is down to perspective because it is nothing but aggression to the Russians. It makes them incredibly uneasy. Espeically after the missile shield debacle. That's why France and Germany protested so much to the US lobbying for the Ukraine and Georgia to join the alliance in 2008.
Amazing how a defensive alliance is aggression, almost like it makes no fucking sense and Russia is just trying to justify their own aggressive moves.
Or Russia just uses it as a justification to make aggressive moves like invading people and even people in the west will eat it up since Amerikkka and America is always wrong. If they don't attack other countries NATO means nothing.
So you dont think it would be aggressive behavior if russia started a defensive alliance with mexico and canada to shrink american influence contrary to previous assurances made and also stationed troops there?
Yep. Imagine if say Russia started arming Mexico with weapons, the US would throw a hissy fit, calling it an act of aggression.
Have a read of this and then let's have chat.
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/ISEC_a_00236
So Cuban missile crisis was just over reaction from US and wrongfully took it as act of aggression when it was just Soviets giving some means of defense to Cubans?
As quite simplified example.
It really is amazing how many people have their head up Putins ass on these forums.
Ukraine was illegally invaded and everyday Ukrainians are dying to keep their country from being taken over by Russia. But somehow its those evil Americans. Practically every day Russia is delivering more artillery, tanks and weapons to its soldiers in Ukraine. But lets be Europe and pretend its not happening and suck Russias dick for more Gas
Ukraine was illegally invaded and everyday Ukrainians are dying to keep their country from being taken over by Russia. But somehow its those evil Americans. Practically every day Russia is delivering more artillery, tanks and weapons to its soldiers in Ukraine. But lets be Europe and pretend its not happening and suck Russias dick for more Gas
We're already in it. And we didn't start it.
Obama repeatedly said it wasn't a new cold war.
I assume you think he was wrong there too?
walking fiend
Member
I'm waiting for the liberals to foam over the decision to arm one repressive regime just cause it is the enemy of the enemy.
Pretty sure deliverying more arms to Ukraine will result in fewer casualties. US doesn't care the slightest about Ukrainians; it is all about them having a foothold next to Russia.
How about you engage with the arguments instead of presenting your fantasised version of them.
Just shows you how stupid this is since when ukrainians get arms from the US Putin will have to double down and take even more land.
Hey if Canada or Mexico wanted to join sure, luckily for us Canada/Mexico aren't terrified of the U.S annexing them. Unlike many countries in Eastern Europe, with the Ukrainian war showing their fears to be justified.
Get it in writing and get formal promises for something so important. Lots of things get talked about during negotiations. You have Gorbachov himself saying NATO expansion talk wasn't brought up
https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html
Eastern Germany is a different thing then NATO expansion in general.
Well it almost ended the world so probably, although there is a difference. We're not putting nukes in Estonia or Lithuania which would be similar distances.
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