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Don't anger the giant alien overmind by talking negatively about his plan.
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WTF is Scientology?
- Thread starter Hollywood
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Ah, another religious argument... here's my input: As an atheist, all religious beliefs are equal. No one religion is more ridiculous than the next. And I am happy that my mind is not burdened by any of them.
I've read about scientology, but I don't remember anything about aliens (I didn't read that much though, maybe I missed it?). Most of what it talked about was self-empowerment. Doesn't sound too bad, but I don't know much about it. Even if they did believe some alien blew up the universe or whatever, it's still no reason to ridicule them (especially if you believe there's an invisible being who watches your every move and will send you away to burn forever if you don't believe in him). And even if their church wants your moneyoh hell, even if they wanted to take over the WORLDthey're still no worse than any other. Except maybe buddhists. No buddhist has ever asked me for money.
I've read about scientology, but I don't remember anything about aliens (I didn't read that much though, maybe I missed it?). Most of what it talked about was self-empowerment. Doesn't sound too bad, but I don't know much about it. Even if they did believe some alien blew up the universe or whatever, it's still no reason to ridicule them (especially if you believe there's an invisible being who watches your every move and will send you away to burn forever if you don't believe in him). And even if their church wants your moneyoh hell, even if they wanted to take over the WORLDthey're still no worse than any other. Except maybe buddhists. No buddhist has ever asked me for money.
Does there have to be a reason, Hollywood? Maybe there is a reason for it all, who really knows? We're all smart enough to ask why, but maybe we're not smart enough to figure it out... shit, for all the proof we have, everything may damn well have been "magically made from nothing." (or to put it another way: "Let there be light!"). No one knows, there are only guesses.
The Hound said:
I just don't like your explanation about 'someones watching you all the time to see if you goto hell'. Obviously you don't know much about Catholisism. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and theres much variability among Catholics on what to believe. Seriously, everyone of my teachers taught their own 'brand' of Catholicism, theres nothing uniform. I personally don't beleive there's a hell and I never was taught there was one.
It's true, I don't know all that much about Catholicism. But I've found that most catholics and christians believe that God is all-knowing and all-seeing. And in Exodus 20 (The Ten Commandments, King James Bible) God says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and also "for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God." Sounds to me like a lot of people might be in big trouble if the christian god exists.
Hollywood said:
That's because catholics historically have been offered a means to purchase their way into heaven. Usually done post death, where the family was asked to contribute to the church, the more you contribute, the less time the deceased spends in purgatory.
Was hell not ever even mentioned in your CCD class? How did they really teach you about satan and the fallen without bringing up hell?
Ash Housewares
The Mountain Jew
Justin Bailey said:
not anymore, yay progress
The Hound said:
Well as I understand it, stories up until Abraham were based on stories to explain certain things. Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, etc, etc ... obviously there is no historical record upon these things but they convey a point. I beleive the point conveyed there was not to worship material goods and pagan dieties that focus on materialism, but to focus on the values of the religion. And the whole Old Testament is more orthodox for Jews.
And NEVER have I heard anything about 'give us money to save your dead relatives from hell'.
The Hound said:
That's your opinion. I was never kicked out of church or neglected because I didn't put money in the colelction basket. I mean no one notices if you donate money except YOU. You're not being blackmailed, framed, or promised a better life the more money you give.
http://www.xenu.net/archive/media/time910605.html
Read htat article and tell me this reiligion isn't corrupt to the core.
Do some research on "indulgences" in Catholic history. The selling of indulgences to shorten relatives' stay in purgatory was one of the main causes of Martin Luther's rejection of the Church. If you've ever wondered about why Protestants believe in salvation through "faith alone," rather than the "faith and good works" (read as: buying holy trinkets) path described by Catholicism...there is your answer.Hollywood said:
Justin Bailey
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Look, you've already admitted that you haven't read much about it. So please, go nuts. The time article is a good start, then you have much more at the main site: www.xenu.net. I'm not going to bother arguing with someone that doesn't know all the facts.The Hound said:
*sighs* If I'm going to read more about scientology, I'm certainly not going to start with an anti-scientology website. And that Time article is interesting, but you still can't dismiss an entire religion because of corruption. Otherwise, you could just as easily dismiss the Roman Catholic Church as a bunch of murderous pedophiles (The Inquisition; Robert Gale). At any rate, I'm not defending them (and I'm not arguing with you, JB). I'll say again, it's no better or worse. To me all religious beliefs are just someone's made up stories.
I tend to agree with the notion that scientology is no better or worse than any other religion. They all use some fictitious mumbo-jumbo to prey on general ignorance/fear in an attempt to control. I've said it a million times, religions helped usher in some law and order in the past when you didn't have the long arm of the law motivating people to stay in line. So the concept of heaven and hell would justify making the effort to live a good life, instead of living like a heathen, laughing all the way to the grave.
But power corrupts, so all religions end up developing some belief structure, and placing people in positions of power. Anytime you have a "leader" it should tip you off to something being wrong. Most religions at least "encourage" donation, which is all a big load of crap really. The church today may not extort people, but it won't change what they did in the past. The church has just had a lot of years for the scars of the past to heal. But Catholicism has been every bit as bad as Scientology is today. Even the recently deceased pope used his power to continue discriminatory policies and to squeeze more money from followers.
There's no problem bad-mouthing scientology, it's a fucking sham. But you better not be doing so while going to worship in your ornately-decorated church. Hell, even your local baptist church down at the YMCA is still in the same boat if they pass around a collection plate. It's all just using "the word of god" to get people to open their wallets. Down with religion. PEACE.
But power corrupts, so all religions end up developing some belief structure, and placing people in positions of power. Anytime you have a "leader" it should tip you off to something being wrong. Most religions at least "encourage" donation, which is all a big load of crap really. The church today may not extort people, but it won't change what they did in the past. The church has just had a lot of years for the scars of the past to heal. But Catholicism has been every bit as bad as Scientology is today. Even the recently deceased pope used his power to continue discriminatory policies and to squeeze more money from followers.
There's no problem bad-mouthing scientology, it's a fucking sham. But you better not be doing so while going to worship in your ornately-decorated church. Hell, even your local baptist church down at the YMCA is still in the same boat if they pass around a collection plate. It's all just using "the word of god" to get people to open their wallets. Down with religion. PEACE.
I don't recall Christ talking about founding it to make money. If you think Scientology and other religions are the same, you are simply an idiot. And hey, you know, everything is fiction if your not old enough to have been alive when it happened. If there was no Christ then there was no Julius Cesar, Alexander the Great, Napolean, or George Washington either. Yep thats the crux of Atheism, ignorance is bliss.
So now it's coming down to name-calling. Don't get your panties in a twist, your typos are becoming more frequent. I never said that all religions are the same, just equally... invalid (to me). I never said that Jesus didn't exist. In fact, I think it's very likely that he was a real person who made a huge impact on the worldjust like the other conquerors/rebels you mentioned. And let me ask you, Hollywood, as an atheist what exactly am I ignorant of? (Read carefully: as an atheist, I ask. There are plenty of things I'm ignorant of that have nothing to do with atheism; such as why people watch pro-wrestling)
The Hound said:
Because you make widespread generalizations about religion, without knowing anything about it. You are ignorant of what each religion is about. Saying a greedy evil cult focused on decieving members founded by an insane founder who ADMITTED that the best way to make money is to start religion is comparable to Christianity, the most common religion in the world today is ridiculous. I'm sorry but making generalizations about it being the same as everything else is just stupid, no matter what subject you are talking about. I guess because I'm white, I'm a racist because my forefathers probably were. Your rationale for differentiating things is ridiculous.
Who says Christ was even a real person? Or that even if a JC did exist, that he was some enlightened messiah? He coulda just been L. Ron Hubbard's predecessor. And I don't believe Christ started the church either. I too had 12 years of Catholic school, and I don't remember ever hearing that. He's the person Christianity was developed to worship, but I don't believe he actually played any role in starting the church. His disciples were just his entourage. JC rolled 12-deep everywhere he went. So does Diddy. :lolHollywood said:
Seriously though, so much of the Bible has been augmented over the millenia that who's to say which parts of it are grounded in some sort of historical fact, and which aren't? I suppose if you can believe in an omniscient and omnipresent deity, then it's not such a long stretch to believe he had a human son who died and did all this cool stuff either. But then, if I was to pass off the Superman comics as the chronicles of our spandex-bound savior, not many people would take me seriously. If I wrote it 2000 years ago, it would be the Holy Roman Catholic Church...of Krpyton. PEACE.
The Hound said:
Ignorant of the fact that different religions and cults can have different levels of ill or positive effect on their members; that most religions are not equivalent in their beliefs or the culture they create
and that Scientology is one of the worst extortionist cults around.
Hollywood said:
That's because Christ didn't found it. Peter did. Christ was about as against organized religion as anyone could be. And that's not a religious statement... that's a historical fact. He was quoted many times as saying that the best temple at all is the self. Peter was a chode... creating a kingdom out of the teachings of a man he called a friend and essentially betrayed.
Pimpwerx said:
Well, the Messianic problem is definitely up for debate, but he did exist. I believe it was Ptolemy that even wrote an essay about the execution, and if I remember correctly, he got to see the body as it was being taken down. Nobody historically denies his existence... it's his status as the Son of the Father that is contested.
Fittingly, the episode of South Park where Starvin Marvin goes to Marklark is on right now:
Pat Robertson on South Park said:
Okay, slow down. I'm no authority, but I have studied various religious systems in school and on my own. I don't know what generalizations you're talking about. I thought I made my point clear several times. Again: I DON'T think that ALL religions are the same. It's their core mythologies that I feel are equally invalid... I'm just not a believer. And I agree that there are some bad, bad scientologists. There are also plenty of bad, bad catholics, jews, muslims, etc. This time, READ CAREFULLY before you click on Quote.
The Hound said:
Oh fucks sake. Stop trying to cover your asscheeks before spreading it wide open!
Yes, bad people exist everywhere. Proportionally, they're a lot higher in Scientology. And regardless of the silliness of the core beliefs in religion, CoS as a group will fuck you up very bad; more so than just a, "I now believe in space aliens and thetans kinda way."
Zaptruder said:
That generalization at the beginning of your argument, man, is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. Proportionally, Scientologists are far more bad people? You could make the excuse that the LEADERSHIP is bad, but I don't think the followers are anymore inherently bad than those of any other religion. But yeah, I'll be a dick and uh... tell you to go ahead and prove that fact. Statistically.
whytemyke said:
Ok ok. I'll take out the 'bad people' comment and insert bad juju.
As in, the relative proportion of bad shit happening is much higher in CoS.
Of course, to provide 'statistical' proof, I'd have to do a top down investigation of the organization... and that'd likely fuck me up good. So you'll just have to rely on the relatively sound reporting and investigation skills of the aforementioned links provided throughout the page.
The Hound said:
Granted, xenu.net is highly critical, but it also documents it's criticism and provides links to the official Church of Scientology website for anyone who wants to get both sides of the story.
Again, as linked to early in the thread, I recommend reading Russell Miller's Barefaced Messiah and Jon Atack's A Piece of Blue Sky, both of which have plenty of documentation to back them up. The links there are to online versions hosted by Operation Clambake with the permission of the authors; however, I've read physical copies of both books and can vouch for the authenticity of the web editions.
Look, people aren't critical of Scientology for it's beliefs. Folks here are criticizing the actions of the Church of Scientology, which have been consistently disturbing over the decades. You won't see anyone bitching about The Freezone movement, which follows Scientology practices seperate from the official Church (who, I might add, hates them for it.).
FnordChan
Scientology is a multiteired organization in which bottom levels report up the ladder. While it's true that people caught up in it may be no better than worse than anyone else, the system they are a part of is reprehensible and is responsible for doing a great deal of psychological, legal, and monetary harm.whytemyke said:
BTW, sites like xenu.net have been sued, not for defamation, but for violating "trade secrets". That's right, a so-called "religion" claims it has "trade secrets" it must protect. Scientology itself is damn near indefensible, and if you let up with the "oh but ALL religions are the same" bullshit you'd understand the difference between a belief system that people choose to be a part of and a predatory organization that recruits members to milk them of their money and livelihood.
Hollywood said:
I haven't seen the show but I read the 60 minutes article on cbsnews.com. They certainly didn't give the impression they were 99 % sure it was real. For instance, they interviewed a professor from Tel Aviv University who described why the letters "brother of Jesus" were likely forged. The article says that within two months of the ossuary being shown at University of Toronto, Isreal's National Museum was offered a tablet ostensibly from the Temple of King Solomon for $4 million. The tablet was traced back to Golan's apartment and the police found tools there for making inscriptions, as well as half-completed seals. They also found the ossuary sitting on his toilet! The article is located at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/60minutes/main682568.shtml. You can see a picture of the ossuary on the toilet here .
Jeffahn said:
Not much, really. The word cult has just been twisted over the centuries into a bad word.
Okay guys, this argument has reached a dead end for us all, so I'm done. No hard feelings, we just can't understand each other. Now, I'm going to masturbate, not feel guilty about it, and go to bed. In that order.
JackFrost2012
Banned
FnordChan and Hitokage have done a better job than I would of explaining this already, but Scientology is dangerous not because they're a believe a bunch of silly things, but because they're a dangerous, extortionist cult who does everything in their power to squash dissent and to ruin the lives of its members. Poke around xenu.net and you can find some interesting things ... like the "Internet Protection Filter" Scientologists were required to install, that censored some strings (like "Xenu," for example) at the WINSOCK.DLL level, making it literally impossible to read about Scientology on the internet. Or the large number of people whose lives have been ruined by their total isolation from friends and family in favor of the "better" support of the scientologists. Or the few people who have been killed by Scientology "treatment," Or the "personality tests" for prospective members that are impossible not to fail. Or the way "church doctrine" is petered out in several books over years for a total cost of over $100,000; by the time you reach the crazy stuff, you've spent too much time and money to be able to afford not to believe it. Or the way Scientology requires its adherents to attend expensive "cleaning" treatments, and when most people are unable to afford them, tie them into indentured servitude to the church for the rest of their unhappy lives. Or the incredible litiginous of the CoS, and their constant fight against the distribution of free information on the Internet (not just CoS materials, but basically trying to sue the Internet into a new structure where nobody can say anything they don't like).
Scientology is fucked up. Not because it's a "wacky religion," but because it's the most actively evil organization on the face of this planet.
(Fun fact, however: my friends and I have picked up some Scientology slang; when we complete every game in a series and/or find every secret in a game, we say we "went clear on X.")
Scientology is fucked up. Not because it's a "wacky religion," but because it's the most actively evil organization on the face of this planet.
(Fun fact, however: my friends and I have picked up some Scientology slang; when we complete every game in a series and/or find every secret in a game, we say we "went clear on X.")
Scientology has created its very own variation on Newspeak, probably derived from 1984 itself. Any vaguely discomforting words are changed around into technical nonsense intended to sound harmless. It's really really scary stuff, and if people can't see the difference between a viscious, malicious cult like this and other established religions, then...they're pretty hopeless.
It makes me sad to think about Beck being a Scientologist. :'(
It makes me sad to think about Beck being a Scientologist. :'(
JackFrost2012
Banned
kablooey said:
"Fair Game" doctrine!
kablooey said:
Well if you read the links... it would appear that celebrities get a different method of induction into Scientology; that they're seduced by a good deal of pampering, before been locked in by blackmailing and extortion.
That said... you've still got many many more celebrities in the traditional christian/muslim/jewish churches... they just don't make a big fuss about it.
Holy fuck, you guys saying Scientology is not any worse than Catholicism are fucked up.
Scientology is on the same level as Al Qaeda, Aum Shinrikio, or Heaven's Gate. A fucking whack job organization rotten to the core and led by the megalomanical ravings of a fucking lunatic.
Catholicism doesn't have a spotless history but fuck, do some research. It's because most of you lazy fucks don't take the five minutes to learn more about Scientology that those fuckers aren't completely ridiculed out of existence.
Scientology is on the same level as Al Qaeda, Aum Shinrikio, or Heaven's Gate. A fucking whack job organization rotten to the core and led by the megalomanical ravings of a fucking lunatic.
Catholicism doesn't have a spotless history but fuck, do some research. It's because most of you lazy fucks don't take the five minutes to learn more about Scientology that those fuckers aren't completely ridiculed out of existence.
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