Catholicism dictates public policy. Scientology doesn't. When Scientology gets the market penetration Catholicism and other pop religions get, then it can be more subtle in its movements. But man, Scientology doesn't bother me nearly as much as Christianity and it's obvious bilking of its members. The church too is a sadistic and devious organization. And it reaches a lot more people, and has infiltrated culture and politics. And in the case of Catholicism, it's controlled by the Vatican. And one man's words can have sway on what not just millions do, but countless public officials and presidents as well. Unless you're specifying certain infractions to be disparaged, then it sounds like relativism to me. Is any religion better than another? PEACE.
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WTF is Scientology?
- Thread starter Hollywood
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The point is that different people have different opinions. So what Scientology does may be bad, but not as bad as what Buddhism does, for instance. Relativism and all that jazz. I don't think anyone is disputing the Scientology is one of the worst religions around, but when you start seperating the corn from the beans in your stool, all you end up with is a mess on your hands.... or something like that.Fatghost28 said:
PEACE.JackFrost2012
Banned
Pimpwerx said:
For fuck's sake, have you read a single word that anyone in this thread has said?
You can't hide behind "relativism" to explain away Scientology's doctrines and behavior. They're an evil, malicious cult. They're not a "religion" at all, except for tax purposes.
JackFrost2012
Banned
whytemyke said:
Well, in that case, they're not a religion at all ... period!
P.S. "browbeat"
BTW I don't believe the Inquisitions and Crusades were more the result of the stupid ass Spaniards and their government than the Catholic church. Plus I've read info that it wasn't as brutal as was beleived before, only 3000-4000 were killed, not the tens of thousands thought of beforehand. Still a stupid ass thing in the past either way I don't think you can attribute to the Roman Catholic church just as much as you can't contribute some Arab strapping a bomb on and blowing up people to Islam.
Well, you can blame it on Islam, because Islam itself isn't nearly as structured of a religion as Christianity is. You have Christianity with usually a very ecclesiastical structure for whichever branch you have, but in Islam, I mean, you are named an Imam if you can simply lead prayer. Not exactly a high threshold of accountability, I'd say.
But to compare the acts that these two take out is similar to comparing what humanity would do in an anarchic society to what they do under a democracy. Ultimately, everyone is humanity and has the same basic instincts (for the purpose of this comparison), but naturally those that are doing things because there's no other precedent or authority figure is very different from the person that does their actions regardless of their authority figures.
This is the same reason I really wouldn't compare Buddhism to Christianity, or Hinduism, etc. There's no structure to the religions beyond what the people who practice it currently know, which is why, in the case of Buddhism, there's so many different styles... Theravada, Mahayama (sp?), etc.
But do you see my problem with your argument? You CAN hold the Catholics in a higher standard, as they have a standard structure, and the entire structure condones it. You don't have that with Islam... I can read the Qu'ran and a few Hadiths and convince you that men should shave their balls or go to hell if I so wanted to, and there's nobody that could say I'm wrong.
But to compare the acts that these two take out is similar to comparing what humanity would do in an anarchic society to what they do under a democracy. Ultimately, everyone is humanity and has the same basic instincts (for the purpose of this comparison), but naturally those that are doing things because there's no other precedent or authority figure is very different from the person that does their actions regardless of their authority figures.
This is the same reason I really wouldn't compare Buddhism to Christianity, or Hinduism, etc. There's no structure to the religions beyond what the people who practice it currently know, which is why, in the case of Buddhism, there's so many different styles... Theravada, Mahayama (sp?), etc.
But do you see my problem with your argument? You CAN hold the Catholics in a higher standard, as they have a standard structure, and the entire structure condones it. You don't have that with Islam... I can read the Qu'ran and a few Hadiths and convince you that men should shave their balls or go to hell if I so wanted to, and there's nobody that could say I'm wrong.
SpoonyBard
Banned
I really liked the Millennium episode Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense.
That's all, bye!
That's all, bye!
Zaptruder said:
This is true. Beck always seems to speak highly of it when asked, so I don't doubt that they've treated him well. But the shame is that he's sheltered from any of the criticisms of the religion, since Scientologists are taught to only hang around other Scientologists, and have their access to negative news filtered. :/
To its credit though...Scientology is also non-denominational, which means that people can be Jewish/Muslim/Christian and be a Scientologist. Not sure how that works out logically, but if you're in Scientology it's not like you have much concern for things making logical sense anyway.
Does ANYONE read a post completely anymore? Has anyone in this thread tried to claim that Scientology is anything but a bad religion? No. But when you start getting into relativism (which a number of you very much have), then you can start applying that logic to anything you want. Ted Bundy may not have been as bad as Dr. Kevorkian. The pope isn't as good as the Dalai Llama. Scientology isn't as bad as Satanism. Who's the ultimate authority on good and evil? Who decides which one is worse? Am I to believe Hito or JackFrost or Cyan when they say this stuff? Who's opinion matter more? It's all relative.
IMO, a lot of religions do the same thing. A lot of them rely on tithing to fund their different brainwashing programs. What they do with that money differs from one religion to another. But tell me. Is it alright for the Catholic church to take donations for missions that really just serve to spread the word of God more than helping people in need? As much as I donate to Amor en Accion, I accept that it's really more of a PR machine for the church to convert more poor people, the ones who are the most gullible. I see this, yet I still donate. Would I give a penny to Scientology? Not on your fucking life. But I don't think what they do is really any different from what the Catholic church does. Just that they need to be more aggressive since they lack the church's numbers and tradition.
Again, I'm not gonna pretend Scientology isn't a sham of a religion used to bilk people of their money. But I think it's naive to think other religions are doing it for better (as in more altruistic) reasons. PEACE.
IMO, a lot of religions do the same thing. A lot of them rely on tithing to fund their different brainwashing programs. What they do with that money differs from one religion to another. But tell me. Is it alright for the Catholic church to take donations for missions that really just serve to spread the word of God more than helping people in need? As much as I donate to Amor en Accion, I accept that it's really more of a PR machine for the church to convert more poor people, the ones who are the most gullible. I see this, yet I still donate. Would I give a penny to Scientology? Not on your fucking life. But I don't think what they do is really any different from what the Catholic church does. Just that they need to be more aggressive since they lack the church's numbers and tradition.
Again, I'm not gonna pretend Scientology isn't a sham of a religion used to bilk people of their money. But I think it's naive to think other religions are doing it for better (as in more altruistic) reasons. PEACE.
Hollywood said:
:lol
wow, just wow. Do you know anything about the history of Catholicism, Hollywood? The Crusades were organized by the Pope himself because the Islamic Caliphs had radicalized in the beginning of the 11th century and had stopped allowing Christian pilgrims to visit the Holy Land. Furthermore, when the knights actually did capture Jerusalem, they actively killed or tried to kill pretty much every non-Christian inhabitant. If you want to defend the Catholic Church the middle ages is not the place to look.
EDIT: and scientology isn't even really a religion.
Justin Bailey
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I dunno, I think a few people here just have the "LA-LA-LA I'M NOT LISTENING" hat on and they're not going to take it off.Cyan said:
Pimpwerx said:
Hmmm ... lets see
Does the Catholic church hypnotize people?
Does that Catholic church block all negative information from its members as to prevent any free thinking?
Do you have to give hundreds of thousands of dollars to advance in the Catholic church?
Does the Catholic church starve/beat you into a state of insanity?
Yes the Catholic church is NO different than Scientology. Great insight.
And if your wondering where the money goes, it goes to the church, it goes to help the homeless and sick, it goes to people who needs food, it goes to people who need tuition. I was one of those who's church helped me with tuition through grade school when my old school closed down and moved somewhere else. I was one who delivered can goods and stuff to people who need them for the church.
So don't come out saying shit on your high and mighty atheist horse and try to tell me what the fuck you know about the Catholic church and how its the same as a cult.
whytemyke said:
I don't know a whole lot about what happened hundreds of years ago during the Middle Ages, but I know wtf goes on now and where the money goes. So comparing what I've done trying to help people and being helped myself to a sadistic cult who's sole purpose is to suck money out of its members pisses me off.
akascream said:
no offense, but the general view of anyone in any religion (including those who lack religion aka atheists) is to take any "facts" on religion with a grain of salt. Religious beliefs are going to be inherently personal and can't be "proven" or "disproven." Pretty much the only "facts" which can be used deal with religious beliefs are the specific religion's history, and at best (to any detractors) that can be used to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the religious leaders at the time such acts were committed. However, ad hominem attacks against religious leaders doesn't really contradict whatever religious teachings you might believe.
Nerevar said:
No offense, but I'm not sure I'd be so arrogant as to define the general view of anyone. I'm just saying, trying to have an unbias, or even remotely open-minded conversation on beliefs here would be like talking to Hitler about the Jewish race. I guess he'd be a fine source of information if you were an aspiring nazi.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Wow. So did anyone else saw Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense? It was fucking brilliant.
Yes I have, and that reminds me that I still haven't picked up Millennium Season 2 yet. And one day when I'm rich rich rich I'll be able to buy all the X-Files sets, but until then I still have the VHS tape with "Jose Chung is From Outer Space" that I taped way back when it aired. Ahh, the days before you could download TV shows and had to actually tape them. Seems so long ago now.
akascream said:
Right, I'm sorry, I should've directed you to Bible Forums or Sunni Forum or any other one of the millions of single-religion message boards where you can spout retarded and inane posts like "the crusades were the fault of the Spanish!!1" or "you can't buy your way into heaven through Catholic doctrine!" and everyone will nod their head because there are no conflicting viewpoints in the fist place. I'm sorry you have to come to forums like this and read different opinions on religious theology that might (shock!) disagree with your own. Really, I am, I know how hard it can be for people to have their convictions challenged.
SpoonyBard
Banned
calder said:Yes I have, and that reminds me that I still haven't picked up Millennium Season 2 yet. And one day when I'm rich rich rich I'll be able to buy all the X-Files sets, but until then I still have the VHS tape with "Jose Chung is From Outer Space" that I taped way back when it aired. Ahh, the days before you could download TV shows and had to actually tape them. Seems so long ago now.
Yeah, the X-Files' Jose Chung ep is brilliant as well, my favourite X-Files episode after maybe Dreamland. The whole second season of Millennium was amazing, too bad Chris Carter went batshit insane and returned the series to the old "serial killer of the week" format on the third season. I had the 2nd season box set for a while, and Morgan and Wong, who were responsible for the second season, didn't even want to appear on the DVD extras after what had happened.
Lucky Forward
Member
"The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own."Jeffahn said:
- Frank Zappa
By that definition, I'm sure Scientology would qualify as a religion.
Hollywood said:
It's sad to me that you don't realize that Christianity started out as a cult.
I even asked you to do some reading on WHY Martin Luther broke away from the church, then you say
They were called "Indulgences" ... and they were very common in Europe.
In the theology of Roman Catholicism, an indulgence is the remission of the temporal punishment due to God for a Christian's sins.
So, in a nutshell .. you are a poor, uneducated peasant. Your father dies. Your local Priest (the Word of God) comes to you and says ... "You know, your Father did not confess all of his sins before he died. He will remain in Purgatory until you can "pay off" all of his sins. He may never make it to heaven". So there you are ... paying what little money you have to make sure your father goes to heaven. It was standard procedure.
Don't feel so bad ... my wife went to Catholic school for 13 years, and had no idea about the history of Catholicism. Sort of like the same thing you accuse Scientolgists of doing. Subverting information.
Maxwell House
Member
There is no doubt that Christianity has been just as evil as Scientology through its history. Crusades anyone? Inquisition?
Nerevar said:
Your attempt to try and pin typical theology to me is pretty funny, considering my personal knowlege along these lines is no more complicated than 'I think therefore I am'. Everything outside of that on my part is speculation and conjecture. You have a bad habit of making lots of assumptions and a need to label and generalize.
Different opinions on religious theology? I'm not sure I've seen much opinion on religious theology outside of ridicule, and a percieved elitism.
No, your post was retarded because of your initial assumption and a general inability to piece together some kind of coherent language pattern.
midnightguy
Member
Scientology is the most PATHETIC little turd of a religion that exists.
i think john travolta belongs to it
i think john travolta belongs to it
akascream said:
Nerevar said:
So you agree with me, then attack me for making assumptions and generlizations? And then you attempt to insult me because I lack the capacity to "piece together some kind of coherent language pattern." (which is about as nonsensical an insult you can make up to insult someone for, ironically, not making sense). I think you need to take some lessons in reading comprehension.
akascream said:
except by picking up on contextual clues relating to the discussion, I was clearly referencing points that directly contradict your religious beliefs (which most religious people ... tend to take with a grain of salt). Furthermore, I was saying it was with good reason, as religious beliefs are going to be personal, not factual. Then you agree, and turn it into a mudslinging event for no reason. I don't understand what your problem is, but if you're goal was to act like an arrogant elitist (the very same thing you accuse GAF regulars of being in religious threads), then you've been remarkably successful. Hence, my instructions for you to take some lessons in reading comprehension, becuase other than pegging me as making severe generalizations (which you have yet to contradict), you haven't really responded to any of my points at all.
Nerevar said:
You were clearly saying that all people react to other people's beliefs in the same way.
This is a gross generalization and really makes my point. Thanks. You honestly equate 'taking something with a grain of salt' to the venom that drips from every religious topic at gaf?
But as long as we are nitpicking, I gotta say again how amusing your reflex bible link response was. Just classic.
akascream said:
ah, so your entire argument has basically been taking my one comment out of context, highlighting it as a generalization, and then making ad hominem attacks instead of constructing any sort of argument? I see. I guess I just wasted my time responding to you in the first place.
ToxicAdam said:
1) Yes I know it started out as a 'cult' all religions do. But the term of cult can mean a religious sect, or it can mean what it means in today's language - a group of brainwashed people who have been taken advantage of.
2) Yes I also have heard of indulgences, but not exactly what they are. Why? Because it's 2005, this stuff hasn't been in effect for YEARS. What is its relevancy to today's Catholic church?
I may not have a history book on me at all times to know exactly what went on during the middle ages, but I DO KNOW about what goes on today, considering I've been a part of the church and know what goes on is not the same as Scientologists. So there. I didn't want this whole thing to get into a debate about religion vs. religion, because arguing about it on the internet is stupid.
I might be wrong, as I am speaking from what I was taught 15 years ago...
1) JC funded the Church: he even called Simon Peter, which comes from the Latin for stone: You will be Peter/¿petra? (sorry, I only had a year of Latin ), where I will build my Church.
2) Luther King did what he did because it was obvious that the Catholic Church was corrupted, and some years later the CC responded with the ¿Trent Concilium? (in Spanish: Concilio de Trento), which, among other things, halted the abuse of indulgencies.
I don't give a damn about the CC, I am Spanish, I live in Spain, and right until 30 years ago the CC helped a dictator to rule our country, with iron hand. But I don't blame then for anything, I just don't care about them. Yes, they do their talk about things like abortion, stem cells, use of condoms and all that: the only thing that annoys me is when I feel that they are not talking just for the members of their club, but for all the people, trying to teach us how to live... but as long as I can simply turn my back at them, I don't mind. A whole different issue would be if they tried to impose their belives, but that's not the case.
Most catholics around me are pretty tolerant: another thing would be "spin offs" like Opus Dei, Legionarios de Cristo (Crist Legionaries).. Those are scary, they made some serious moves to increase their power and had members among the goverment of Aznar, that G.W. Bush "friend". Oh, and it seems that John Paul pushed them up the ladder in the CC (example: fastest ever beatificacion or santificacion -sorry, I hope you understand those words I think I have just made up, I've never read about Catholic religion in English- for Escribá de Balaguer, Opus Dei founder...)
1) JC funded the Church: he even called Simon Peter, which comes from the Latin for stone: You will be Peter/¿petra? (sorry, I only had a year of Latin
), where I will build my Church.2) Luther King did what he did because it was obvious that the Catholic Church was corrupted, and some years later the CC responded with the ¿Trent Concilium? (in Spanish: Concilio de Trento), which, among other things, halted the abuse of indulgencies.
I don't give a damn about the CC, I am Spanish, I live in Spain, and right until 30 years ago the CC helped a dictator to rule our country, with iron hand. But I don't blame then for anything, I just don't care about them. Yes, they do their talk about things like abortion, stem cells, use of condoms and all that: the only thing that annoys me is when I feel that they are not talking just for the members of their club, but for all the people, trying to teach us how to live... but as long as I can simply turn my back at them, I don't mind. A whole different issue would be if they tried to impose their belives, but that's not the case.
Most catholics around me are pretty tolerant: another thing would be "spin offs" like Opus Dei, Legionarios de Cristo (Crist Legionaries).. Those are scary, they made some serious moves to increase their power and had members among the goverment of Aznar, that G.W. Bush "friend". Oh, and it seems that John Paul pushed them up the ladder in the CC (example: fastest ever beatificacion or santificacion -sorry, I hope you understand those words I think I have just made up, I've never read about Catholic religion in English- for Escribá de Balaguer, Opus Dei founder...)
akascream said:
Fixed.
akascream said:
akascream said:
Follow your own advice, homey. When you assume, you make ass of u and me.
And for the record, in case you two didn't notice, you're both arguing the same side of the coin: any religious debate is going to be inherently biased, regardless of where it's at.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
Some atheists in this thread are being willfully obtuse with there "all religions are the same" mantra. When you are so blinded by disdain for religion ( read mainly Christianity) that you can't tell the difference between a legitimate religion (be it hinduism, christianity, islam) and a money sucking cult. Then you are truly lost.
hollywood,
indulgences are still common, just cause your church doesn't do them, or you are unaware of them, doesn't mean they still aren't practiced in the catholic world. Mostly $5 is customary, but many people give more. I mean, when you're talking about shortening the time in purgatory, it's worth it... for those that believe that it helps I mean.
Most of the money donated to the church goes to actually funding the church, very little trickles down to the needy. Don't get me wrong, they do a lot of good, but don't kid yourself about the collection plate. Ever see a priest drive an old beat up car? I haven't.
Also, you didn't answer my question about your CCD experience with learning about hell. I mean, you must have been taught something about it at some point.
And the fact that most of what you hear from a Catholic mass hides about 90 percent of the teachings of the bible, I don't know, wouldn't you consider that a bit misleading?
Please don't misunderstand me, I in no way consider the faults of any established church to be on the same plane of those of scientology, you just come off as bit smug or defensive about the faults of catholocism. I'm a catholic myself, it's just best to be aware of as much as possible.
indulgences are still common, just cause your church doesn't do them, or you are unaware of them, doesn't mean they still aren't practiced in the catholic world. Mostly $5 is customary, but many people give more. I mean, when you're talking about shortening the time in purgatory, it's worth it... for those that believe that it helps I mean.
Most of the money donated to the church goes to actually funding the church, very little trickles down to the needy. Don't get me wrong, they do a lot of good, but don't kid yourself about the collection plate. Ever see a priest drive an old beat up car? I haven't.
Also, you didn't answer my question about your CCD experience with learning about hell. I mean, you must have been taught something about it at some point.
And the fact that most of what you hear from a Catholic mass hides about 90 percent of the teachings of the bible, I don't know, wouldn't you consider that a bit misleading?
Please don't misunderstand me, I in no way consider the faults of any established church to be on the same plane of those of scientology, you just come off as bit smug or defensive about the faults of catholocism. I'm a catholic myself, it's just best to be aware of as much as possible.
JackFrost2012
Banned
Hitokage said:Like Zaptruder, I'd rather not be lumped together with Pimpwerx and his yellow-tinted glasses.
Amen, brother!
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