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[midnightguy]

Xbox 360 Graphics Chip Patent?
By: César A. Berardini - "Cesar"
Apr. 22nd, 2005 3:39 pm
Today we bring you a new patent that was was approved on March 29th by the United States Patent and Trademark Office, in which ATI, Microsoft's graphics chip partner for the Xbox 360, is patenting a “method and apparatus for supporting anti-aliasing oversampling in a video graphics system that utilizes a custom memory for storage of the frame buffer.” In layman terms, that is embedded video RAM for the GPU to use it as a frame buffer.

In a world exclusive, TeamXbox was the first publication to reveal the existence of the embedded video RAM back in February, 2004. What a track record, eh? First it was the IBM-Microsoft deal, then this

This new patent, filed in August, 2002, exposes a custom memory used by the graphic chip for storage of the frame buffer.

This custom memory has been created mostly to perform anti-aliasing operations and help overcometoday's biggest problem in graphics chips: memory bandwidth.

Generally, the present invention provides method and apparatus for supporting anti-aliasing oversampling in a video graphics system that utilizes a custom memory for storage of the frame buffer. The custom memory includes a memory array that stores the frame buffer as well as a data path that performs at least a portion of the blending operations associated with pixel fragments generated by a graphics procesor. The fragments produced by a graphics procesor are oversampled fragments such that each fragment may include a plurality of samples. If the sample set for a particular pixel location can be compressed, the compressed sample set is stored within the frame buffer of the custom memory circuit. However, if such compression is not possible, pointer information is stored within the frame buffer on the custom memory, and a sample memory controller included on the graphics procesor maintains a complete sample set for the pixel location within a sample memory. When the sample memory controller maintains a complete sample set for a pixel location, the frame buffer stores a pointer corresponding to the location of the sample set.


The invention can be better understood when viewing the following image:

The figure illustrates a block diagram of a “graphics processing system” that supports oversampling anti-aliasing. The system includes a graphics processor, a sample memory and a custom memory module. The graphics processor, the custom memory, and the sample memory may each be individual integrated circuits.

Embedded DRAM is expensive, because it’s very similar to microprocessors cache memory, so that is why the patent explains that in order to keep costs low, the amount of additional logic included on this custom memory may be minimized. Therefore, although some of the circuitry always found within the video graphics system has been moved onto this new custom memory invention, some functions still remain within the graphics processor in order to keep the production costs low for the custom memory.

So what does all this mumbo jumbo mean? It means we’ll get games running at 720p HDTV resolution, that is 1280x720, will full screen anti-aliasing with almost no impact on framerate. Imagine Project Gotham Racing 3 or those badass Unreal Engine 3-powered games running at some 60 FPS, with full screen anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering taken to the max!

It’s a hardcore gamer’s dream come true!

the Feb 2004 article, one of the first if not the first article that reported Xenon would have embedded graphics memory

The Graphic Chip

The graphic chip will be based on the R520 (codenamed Fudo). This VPU has been in design at ATI’s Marlborough, Mass. office. It'll be fully compatible with DirectX 9's PS and VS 3.0 and the next version of DirectX: DX10, the same suite of APIs that will be used in Longhorn.

What nobody is telling you and you'll know about this first, here on TeamXbox, is the revolutionary approach of the Xbox 2 to deal with today's biggest problem in graphics chips: memory bandwidth.

The graphic chip will contain not only a graphics rendering core but up embedded DRAM acting as a frame buffer that is big enough to handle an image that is 480i and can be 4 times over sampled and double buffered. Yeah, we all remember Bitboys but this time you can bet this is for real. This solution will finally make possible HDTV visuals with full screen Anti-Aliasing on.

The technology also supports up to 512 MB of external memory on a 256-bit bus. However, current specs plan to use 256 MB RAM, big enough for next-generation visuals which are all about computational power rather than large storage.

 

[op_ivy]

to the max!

:lol

 

[XboxGamers]

Xbox 360 to da max! :lol

 

[MetalAlien]

"I think this is a great idea." I'm quoting myself from when I read about the embedded video ram on the PS2. I still think it's a good idea.

 

[seismologist]

I wonder if ps3 uses similar tech (being from Ati and all)
and how did 360 get the patent?

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

I wonder if ps3 uses similar tech (being from Ati and all)
and how did 360 get the patent?

Thats what I was wondering aswell, there must be info about the location of the patents inventor.

I think Cambridge,MA is where ATI east team is from.

 

[seismologist]

oh wait ps3 is using Nvidia. My bad. anyone know if theyre still
using embedded dram?

 

[midnightguy]

oh wait ps3 is using Nvidia. My bad. anyone know if theyre still
using embedded dram?

good question. when Sony was still doing their own GPU, well either Sony alone or in co-operation with Toshiba, there almost definitally would've been embedded dram. they were probably making a chip in the Graphics Synthesizer family, GS3 or whatever.

now that Nvidia is making the GPU though, all bets are off. Nvidia has never introduced a consumer or commercial/professional/industrial GPU with embedded memory. will they with PS3? probably have to wait until E3 or the fall to find out.

 

[MrSingh]

oh wait ps3 is using Nvidia. My bad. anyone know if theyre still
using embedded dram?

AFAIK no.

 

[FightyF]

Now THIS explains why Allard harped on the "HD Revolution". I mentioned it in another thread, that perhaps this is what the 360 has over the PS3...and they realised this and are pushing it.

 

[MetalAlien]

Now THIS explains why Allard harped on the "HD Revolution". I mentioned it in another thread, that perhaps this is what the 360 has over the PS3...and they realised this and are pushing it.

Yea because it really made the difference in the PS2, that's why all its games look better than Xbox.

 

[Barnimal]

let the hatred begin

 

[Papi]

That's hardcore xtreme.

 

[gofreak]

They were going so well (well, the self-aggrandising besides) until they threw in AF at the end..AFAIK this has nothing to do with AF.

And PS3 will have anti-aliasing whatever about embedded memory :lol

 

[FightyF]

Yea because it really made the difference in the PS2, that's why all its games look better than Xbox.

The PS2 didn't have anything like that.

 

[MetalAlien]

The GS in the PS2 has 4 megs of embedded RAM. The purpose being to increase the bandwidth between the GPU and the video ram. 48gigs per second if I remember right. Same idea the Xbox360 is using. Like I said, it was a good idea when the PS2 did it.

Alot of the effects like motion blur and the depth of field focus in GT3/4 are because of the embedded ram in the PS2.

 

[FightyF]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to having ultra high res (for supersampling) on the PS2.

 

[MetalAlien]

That's ok. Just so we all know we're on the same page...

http://www.us.playstation.com/consoles.aspx?id=2/info/PlayStation2/415007666.html&print

Superior Memory Access BandwidthIn the design of graphics systems, the rendering capability defined by the memory bandwidth between the pixel engine and the video memory. Conventional systems use external VRAM reached via an off-chip bus that limits the total performance of the system. For the new GS, however, there is a 49-gigabyte memory access bandwidth achieved via the integration of the pixel logic and the video memory on a single high performance chip.

 

[Vince]

Now THIS explains why Allard harped on the "HD Revolution". I mentioned it in another thread, that perhaps this is what the 360 has over the PS3...and they realised this and are pushing it.

No it doesn't. Toshiba just presented at the Cool Chips conference how ISSCC-Cell can load and decode 48 MPEG-2 streams at the same time with 6 SPUs (out of 8) and then resize them as tiled thumbnails on a 1920x1080 screen. The HD Revolution... guess that didn't last long.

eDRAM isn't going to be a difference in that regard, and unless you're in the hundreds or thousands (as Sony demonstrated at a conference a few years back) of GB/sec, eDRAM isn't worth it IMHO in terms of the trade off in area for logic. In 1999, the only way to drastically outpreform the competition was by embedding; in 2005 you can get the same level of preformance with off-chip, commodity RAM.

 

[Kleegamefan]

No it doesn't. Toshiba just presented at the Cool Chips conference how ISSCC-Cell can load and decode 48 MPEG-2 streams at the same time with 6 SPUs (out of 8) and then resize them as tiled thumbnails on a 1920x1080 screen. The HD Revolution... guess that didn't last long.

That is some crazy performance right there....

 

[MetalAlien]

I still like the idea of embedded ram, you can never have too much bandwidth. But yea one of the failings of the PS2 was it's rather simplist GPU. The Xbox just had a better design. Still if they can ever get the best of both worlds it should be magic.. Xbox360 maybe?

No it doesn't. Toshiba just presented at the Cool Chips conference how ISSCC-Cell can load and decode 48 MPEG-2 streams at the same time with 6 SPUs (out of 8) and then resize them as tiled thumbnails on a 1920x1080 screen. The HD Revolution... guess that didn't last long.

eDRAM isn't going to be a difference in that regard, and unless you're in the hundreds or thousands (as Sony demonstrated at a conference a few years back) of GB/sec, eDRAM isn't worth it IMHO in terms of the trade off in area for logic. In 1999, the only way to drastically outpreform the competition was by embedding; in 2005 you can get the same level of preformance with off-chip, commodity RAM.

 

[Kleegamefan]

I expect all 3 next gen consoles will have eDRAM...

PS2 and GC had it last (or should I say, this) gen and X360 is said to have ~10MB of eDRAM..

For comparison, GC has 1MB of eDRAM in Flipper (and producing crazy shit like Resident Evil 4) and PS2 has 4MB of eDRAM in GS(and has huge fillrate performance as evident by games like ZOE2)

Next gen can't come soon enough....

Just imagine what DOA4 or Ninja Gaiden 2 on X360 will look like?? *drool*

 

[midnightguy]

3.12 MB of embedded 1T-SRAM in Gamecube Flipper

4 MB eDRAM in PS2 Graphics Synthesizer

0 MB of embedded memory in Xbox NV2A - other than the usual caches found in all chips.


I hope that PS3's Nvidia designed or Nvidia-Sony designed, Sony manufactured GPU has eDRAM or some type of embedded memory.

I fully expect the ATI Hollywood GPU in Revolution to have embedded memory, following in Flipper's footsteps.

I also hope that Xenon's GPU has more than 10 MB of EDRAM connected to it, even though it seems NOT to be embedded into the R500 GPU, but is actually a seperate chip. thus 'enhanced DRAM'

 

[MetalAlien]

I was wondering how they are going to patent an idea that's been used in 2 other consoles already. I guess they are going to patent the off-chip "embedded" ram..LOL

By going off chip they can have a larger cache of fast ram, 10megs on chip might take up too much space until later generations of the production run. I guess we'll see when the PS3 is revealed.