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Xbox "Advanced Tech Engineers" discuss tech specs
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seismologist
Banned
The only thing I'm worried about will Cell is how well traditional game engines will port to it.
Oddly enough, the Unreal 3 demo Sony had at E3 was the only realtime tech demo not running on Cell.
Oddly enough, the Unreal 3 demo Sony had at E3 was the only realtime tech demo not running on Cell.
cyberheater
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Agisthos said:
You sir have hit the nail on the head.
And at the end of the day its not about raw horsepower. It's about efficient game design and innovative algorythms.
Vince said:
Feel free, but I'll feel equally free to mention that stuff like that (what does his voice have to do with anything? You keep going on about it.) has nothing to do with the discussion, and just makes you sound like some junior high guy for whom everthing you don't like is "gay". It's just dumb. More to the point, I find it distracting to the discussion. I'm actually interested in a serious discussion about this, but when I read commnets laced with that stuff I just can't take the poster seriously.
And my avatar is a twisted inside reference that originated on this forum, not unlike Wall Guy, and captures in my mind a sense of the absurd. And for the record, the purple one is female.
hukasmokincaterpillar
Member
seismologist said:
If I read it right it was running on a Cell dev/6800U SLI combo but just using the PPE core, ie the SPEs werent gettin no lovin yet. Which makes sense given how much time they had to throw it together.
As for programming for Cell vs. xCPU, the gist Im getting is the shift from traditional single thread to multi-thread programming is going to be a growing pang for everyone involved on either platform. Cell may have more headaches since its the more exotic of the two, but more headroom could be the payoff. You have the Agiea cats already comparing it to a PPU equivalent.
GhaleonEB said:
Then ignore it and respond to my main post that listed the points you asked for. I don't see anyone doing that.
Why isn't anyone else talking about the sheer hypocricy (for what it's worth) of these two guys going on and on about things Sony is doing, but neglecting to state or acknowldge that Microsoft is doing the same things:
-They claimed that Sony all about the raw preformance and the PR hype, yet they don't explain why they chose a MPU that's Multithreaded-CMP and achieved this by cutting out OoOE so that it could fit three cores at 90nm and runup the clock to 3.2GHz. The lack of OoOE is what "everyone" was bitching about at GDC, why did they do this?
-Why don't they have to answer why it's OK (infact, I bet it's 'smart') for ATI to support a propietary FP10 [HDR] format (when nVidia supports the more standardized FP16 and IEEE FP32*) but it's NOT alright when STI decides that CELL will not support the full IEEE754 rounding modes that are useless in many situations?
PS. I don't care about the banana's, I think they're pretty damn funny myself... just pointing out the obvious.
*I believe the FP32 is to IEEE spec, could be wrong.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
Agisthos said:
While I agree 100%, I see it more like this...
Those who passionately feel the X360 is as powerful as the PS3 and are ready to go to war about it are completely missing the point.
Those who passionately feel the PS3 trumps the X360 and are ready to go to war about it are completely missing the point.
To argue about the two is really pretty much pointless because it A) won't change a damn thing about the systems, or the games that are released on them B) is really all hear-say until we actually get working final hardware in our hands. And you know what? By then, we won't care enough to argue about it because we should already know. We'll be playing games on them by then.
At some point in time we will know which is more powerful, and how much more powerful it is. To argue about it now accomplishes nothing.
No, you just presume to demand greater accountability from Vince than you do a couple of random engineers at MS whose credentials for talking about PS3 architecture are no better established than Vince calling their comments bullshit. But hey, they're engineers, right? Paragons of virtue, accuracy and preternatural insight they _must_ be.GhaleonEB said:
If you watched the Sony press conference from which all their PS3 related clips originated, you shouldn't be experiencing any confusion as to what was presented that they claimed was realtime and what was presented that they indicated was for work in progress that only demonstrated what they were targeting. The only things that they claimed were realtime in the conference itself were the tech demos, not the previews of future games.
And, to borrow a phrase, "if what they say is such bullshit, then tell us HOW it's bullshit."
Neither approach is more or less honest than the other. They're both showing you work in progress that demonstrates what they're targeting for final software on platforms whose hardware isn't even finalized yet. They'll either hit these targets or they won't.
Vince said:Then ignore it and respond to my main post that listed the points you asked for. I don't see anyone doing that.
Why isn't anyone else talking about the sheer hypocricy (for what it's worth) of these two guys going on and on about things Sony is doing, but neglecting to state or acknowldge that Microsoft is doing the same things:
-They claimed that Sony all about the raw preformance and the PR hype, yet they don't explain why they chose a MPU that's Multithreaded-CMP and achieved this by cutting out OoOE so that it could fit three cores at 90nm and runup the clock to 3.2GHz. The lack of OoOE is what "everyone" was bitching about at GDC, why did they do this?
-Why don't they have to answer why it's OK (infact, I bet it's 'smart') for ATI to support a propietary FP10 [HDR] format (when nVidia supports the more standardized FP16 and IEEE FP32*) but it's NOT alright when STI decides that CELL will not support the full IEEE754 rounding modes that are useless in many situations?
PS. I don't care about the banana's, I think they're pretty damn funny myself... just pointing out the obvious.
*I believe the FP32 is to IEEE spec, could be wrong.
I think the simple answer to your question is, they work for Microsoft and helped design the thing. They even said at the start that their original PR release was biased and designed to "present the XBox 360 in the best light". I don't think anyone is just taking their word for granted (and if you are....wow), but it DOES make for interesting discussion.
Also - and this is the non-techie in me - I didn't understand much if at all of what you quoted. That's why we need guys like Pana, who know this stuff inside and out and can put in into English for we simpletons.
Seriously...where is Pana when you need him?
kaching said:
Not true at all - I hold him to the SAME level of accountability. When two guys who designed a box explain in their (slanted) view why it's better than another, just calling it bullshit doesn't cut it. Of COURSE it's PR - but I'd like a little more insightful anlaysis.
Funny, I seem to recall dozens of articles, inteviews and threads right after trying to decipher what was prerendered vs. realtime. Not exaclty clear as crystal. I found it tough to decipher, but so did pretty much everyone else.
And, to borrow a phrase, "if what they say is such bullshit, then tell us HOW it's bullshit."
...because it was prerendered, and postured as not so. 2nd verse, same as the first.
Obviously I disagree here. Coming to E3 and showing a bunch of 'target visuals' or what ever and posturing it as the real deal does not equate putting early versions of games on the show floor. What can I say? I just trust stuff people can put in their hands more than a controlled movie.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
kaching said:
Except in one case it's running in real time, albeit somewhat slowly, and in the other case it's pre-rendered cg. Even if they are both "targets" there is a BIG BIG difference there.
STOP FUCKING LISTENING TO MAJOR NELSON.
This isn't about what Sony is doing or what MS is doing. This is about listening to MS PR and then using that as a basis for the truth. The fact of the matter is you have MANY independant techies out on the interweb doing a thorough, BALANCED analysis of the hw. Many people have their biases, but it doesn't have to cloud your analysis of the hw. The PS3 will be more powerful than the 360, much like the Xbox was more powerful than the PS2. This is nothing more than damage control. How much more powerful is largely dependant on what we find out about RSX, as that's really the main part we don't know about. There are lots of details coming out about Xenos, with some interesting details on its efficiency. A great GPU there. How good RSX is, we've yet to see, but Cell is already a monster over the xCPU. But this was already known months ago.
There's no need to wait for the games to decide. You can do a thorough analysis of specs assuming full disclosure. We're getting there for the X360, and we'll get there for the PS3 when NVidia/Sony gets some info out about RSX. That chip is almost a complete mystery, as everyone is just basing its performance on the G70 (a slower chip mind you). Will it be 2x the 360? Doubtful. Eventhough the PS3 seems to *nearly* double the 360 in a lot of specs, it's not gonna hit that peak b/c bandwidth isn't doubled to match. Someone else threw out the figure 20%, which is a random number that can't be corroborated. But I'd expect something along the lines of the Xbox/PS2 situation from this gen. Maybe PS2/DC at worst. I wouldn't really fret too much having seen GoW, which wasn't that far off the KZ2 demo, which everyone swore up and down had to be CG and totally unattainable. So really, it's a waiting game at this point. Wait for full-disclosure and a thorough thrashing of the data, and we'll get a good idea of the power split. Then we can sit back and wait for the games, which really make the difference.
IMO...if I am to put forth my fanboy guesstimate. I'd wager the difference in games would be like we've seen with the demos. A GoW to KZ2 type of difference. Since J. Allard himself has already gone on record as saying KZ2 should be possible, I can see that kind of difference being what we'll see. It's not a huge difference at all. Matter of fact, neither game might represent the normal output from either console. Both might end up being near the high-end, with most games looking slightly worse. The difference in those demos is largely art assets, as it didn't look like either will represent the absolute max the console can do. But that's my biased opinion based more on what I expect than what we actually know. AGAIN, so little info on RSX that if it's an absolute turd, the tide could well turn in MS's favor. If it's a beast, the PS3 could well be 2x more powerful. We don't know enough to say at this point. Bottom line: STOP LISTENING TO THOSE IDIOTS AT MAJOR NELSON. They are the Deadmeats of this gen so far. :lol PEACE.
This isn't about what Sony is doing or what MS is doing. This is about listening to MS PR and then using that as a basis for the truth. The fact of the matter is you have MANY independant techies out on the interweb doing a thorough, BALANCED analysis of the hw. Many people have their biases, but it doesn't have to cloud your analysis of the hw. The PS3 will be more powerful than the 360, much like the Xbox was more powerful than the PS2. This is nothing more than damage control. How much more powerful is largely dependant on what we find out about RSX, as that's really the main part we don't know about. There are lots of details coming out about Xenos, with some interesting details on its efficiency. A great GPU there. How good RSX is, we've yet to see, but Cell is already a monster over the xCPU. But this was already known months ago.
There's no need to wait for the games to decide. You can do a thorough analysis of specs assuming full disclosure. We're getting there for the X360, and we'll get there for the PS3 when NVidia/Sony gets some info out about RSX. That chip is almost a complete mystery, as everyone is just basing its performance on the G70 (a slower chip mind you). Will it be 2x the 360? Doubtful. Eventhough the PS3 seems to *nearly* double the 360 in a lot of specs, it's not gonna hit that peak b/c bandwidth isn't doubled to match. Someone else threw out the figure 20%, which is a random number that can't be corroborated. But I'd expect something along the lines of the Xbox/PS2 situation from this gen. Maybe PS2/DC at worst. I wouldn't really fret too much having seen GoW, which wasn't that far off the KZ2 demo, which everyone swore up and down had to be CG and totally unattainable. So really, it's a waiting game at this point. Wait for full-disclosure and a thorough thrashing of the data, and we'll get a good idea of the power split. Then we can sit back and wait for the games, which really make the difference.
IMO...if I am to put forth my fanboy guesstimate. I'd wager the difference in games would be like we've seen with the demos. A GoW to KZ2 type of difference. Since J. Allard himself has already gone on record as saying KZ2 should be possible, I can see that kind of difference being what we'll see. It's not a huge difference at all. Matter of fact, neither game might represent the normal output from either console. Both might end up being near the high-end, with most games looking slightly worse. The difference in those demos is largely art assets, as it didn't look like either will represent the absolute max the console can do. But that's my biased opinion based more on what I expect than what we actually know. AGAIN, so little info on RSX that if it's an absolute turd, the tide could well turn in MS's favor. If it's a beast, the PS3 could well be 2x more powerful. We don't know enough to say at this point. Bottom line: STOP LISTENING TO THOSE IDIOTS AT MAJOR NELSON. They are the Deadmeats of this gen so far. :lol PEACE.
Nice post by Massive Attack. Agree completely. Simply to see this much stuff coming out of MS is indication of how rattled Sony has gotten them.
As to people saying 'hey, in the end they'll be about the same' or whatever, surely thats just baseless speculation as much as Major Nelson is? With little information on the RSX, and no games yet, there is no way to know.
If you are just saying 'they'll be about the same' to try and sit on the fence, or calm the tech wars, then don't. You aren't helping. Let us have good technical discussion (yes, there is some in this thread too)
As to people saying 'hey, in the end they'll be about the same' or whatever, surely thats just baseless speculation as much as Major Nelson is? With little information on the RSX, and no games yet, there is no way to know.
If you are just saying 'they'll be about the same' to try and sit on the fence, or calm the tech wars, then don't. You aren't helping. Let us have good technical discussion (yes, there is some in this thread too)
Pimpwerx said:
Nah, I actually like the guy. His blog is pretty cool and I enjoy his smooth melodious voice. Of course he's gonna spout the coporate line, but I don't see anyone screaming "STOP LISTENING TO KEN KUTARAGI". (of course, I stopped listening to HIM after the "jack into the Matix" line)
Amir0x said:
Favorite videogame company? :lol :lol :lol
No. Please try to keep up.
And you apparantly can't read. I find his blog interesting (it's not ALL MS stuff). And I've said in like four posts running now that he "spews the corporate line" has a "slanted view" and is "biased" and slammed anyone taking this stuff as the unvarnished truth.
Get over it, man. I own an XBox, I like what they are doing with the 360, but MS is NOT my "favorite videogame company" nor do I swear any kind of allegiance to them. You can act like I'm some raving loon all you want, but the reality is that I don't trust the PR coming from him anymore than the stuff coming from Sony. And I've been saying this for quite a while.
GhaleonEB said:
Why are you repeating my statement back to me? This isn't real life, you can re-read it. The internet does not stutter.
But just in case: You like Major Nelson because he masturbates your FAVORITE VIDEOGAME COMPANY. That is to say, you prefer Microsoft by far over its competitors, and the videogame systems they bring out. You slather his dick for that reason and that only, and you don't even do a good job of hiding it.
GhaleonEB said:
So, let's get this right.
"I don't like Sony (and/or trust them) because they spew bullshit, like show CG! Kutaragi is such a bullshit artist! I don't trust Sony because of this."
Vs.
"I like Major Nelson. I know a lot of what he says is "spewing the corporate line" and being biased and all that, but I don't care!"
GhaleonEB said:
Yes you do. No offense, but it is blatantly obvious in everything you post. You do have a blind corporate loyality and it permeates all your posts.
I find it somewhat ironic that MS here are complaining about the use of meaningless unknown specs like Shader Ops and fixed function TeraFlops, when it was MS who introduced these into the battle in the first place.
The reason MS did this of course, is because they knew they were about to be "beaten" on CPU GFLOPS, so they sought to dilute that advantage by using NV FLOPS. Sony then simply used this to their advantage.
The really interesting thing here is whether MS's and Sony's TFLOPS comparisons are based on the same thing: the way NV have in the past measured fixed FLOPS in their graphics chips rendering logic; or did Sony trawl through their electronics looking for anything that might be termed a FLOP?
Still, its hard to feel sorry for Microsoft here, or to give much creedence for a paper where they attempted to compare bandwidth by simply adding it all together (after all by the same comparison PS2 beats Xbox into a cocked hat).
The reason MS did this of course, is because they knew they were about to be "beaten" on CPU GFLOPS, so they sought to dilute that advantage by using NV FLOPS. Sony then simply used this to their advantage.
The really interesting thing here is whether MS's and Sony's TFLOPS comparisons are based on the same thing: the way NV have in the past measured fixed FLOPS in their graphics chips rendering logic; or did Sony trawl through their electronics looking for anything that might be termed a FLOP?
Still, its hard to feel sorry for Microsoft here, or to give much creedence for a paper where they attempted to compare bandwidth by simply adding it all together (after all by the same comparison PS2 beats Xbox into a cocked hat).
How much more insightful does the analysis have to be regarding comments made by two guys talking about hardware whose specs haven't been fully disclosed? They're talking out of turn, end of story. Of course, when more insightful analysis is provided you beg off on being non-techie and not being able to understand what is quoted.GhaleonEB said:
Because they were trying to read into what was presented and in their mad dash to "investigate" and try to make more of what they saw, all they did was confuse the issue. The press conference was explicit about what was realtime and it was all confined to tech demos, not the video clips of future games.Funny, I seem to recall dozens of articles, inteviews and threads right after trying to decipher what was prerendered vs. realtime. Not exaclty clear as crystal. I found it tough to decipher, but so did pretty much everyone else.
...because it was prerendered, and postured as not so. 2nd verse, same as the first.
Both Sony and MS showed a mix of realtime and prerendered content. The content that Sony claimed as realtime was clearly representative of a platform in earlier stages of development. You're obviously not accounting for the full breadth of what Sony showed and are simply posting with blinders on that only let you see Killzone, Killzone, Killzone.
Amir0x said:
1) Microsoft is not my favoite video game company. Not by a long shot. My favorite HARDWARE developer this gen? Yes.
2) I don't masturbate, period. Never have, for what it's worth.
3) Don't suck dick, sorry. Married with two kids.
4) Nothing to hide.
5) Are you twelve or something? Did I do something to rile you up in the past? Just wondering.
See my "can you read?" line. I like Major for his OTHER stuff - and I like what he's doing on his blog. Do I buy the stats? No, I don't. Not one bit. I've said this in at least 20 posts in a half dozen threads. As I said, try to keep up - you're behind.
To quote myself from earlier....Coming to E3 and showing a bunch of 'target visuals' or what ever and posturing it as the real deal does not equate putting early versions of games on the show floor. What can I say? I just trust stuff people can put in their hands more than a controlled movie.
I'm not offended by this comment, but I am by the general tone and everthing that came before it (dick sucking, etc.). If you think of me as a MS tool, that's fine with me. My view of them is decidedly mixed, but I like most of what I've seen on the 360. If that make me some raving loon, then sign me up.
GhaleonEB said:
No concept of jest. Taking it literally does not make any of the statements somehow more shocking, GhaleonEB. Just for reference. People often try to do this when they don't have any realistic answers to the content posed, but that's important to realize.
But to answer your statements/rhetorical questions literally, for shits and giggles...
1) I thought it was pretty clear to me what we were discussing, apparently not!
2) Hahahahahahahahahhahaha.
3) No shit? *zips pants up*
4) MGS4? Do I get points or something?
5) That is right, my post certainly was filled to the brim with immaturity! Thus, it is appropriate to assume I am, indeed, twelve. But no, my pet peeve is double standards, of which you have tons.
GhaleonEB said:
What do you like about his blog? Nevermind, I actually don't want to know anymore. If you genuinely realize how fucking bullshit this crap is, then stop with your psuedo-defenses of it. You're all "Oh hey, yeah it's bullshit... BUT HE HAS EXPERIENCE AND SHIT! And what about Sony? They're all liars! I know Nelson intentionally misleads dumb people for his spin machine, but his other stuff... man, it's stand-up stuff!" That's your defenses. Let me submit that it's completely disingenuous and everyone realizes it.
GhaleonEB said:
Point this at kaching.
GhaleonEB said:
It's better that you admit such biases instead of trying to act like you're at all being objective. You're not. Your "view" may be mixed - whatever that means - but it certainly does not distract from your decidedly slanted and biased viewpoints. More to the point, just in case you'll say it, "Owning all three systems does not an unbiased man make."
midnightguy
Member
Pimpwerx - PS3's advantages over Xbox 360 will be massively less than what PS2 had of Dreamcast.
the PS2 outclassed Dreamcast tremendously, in raw power and bandwidth. even nipping out the over-inflated hype of Sony's original claimed performance advantage of 20 to 50 times Dreamcast with PS2, the PS2 was still 3 to 5 times more powerful in raw performance, and PS3's advantage over Xbox 360 will be alot less than this. maybe 50% more at best, in certain areas. and Xbox 360 will have a number of advantages over PS3.
it should be *closer* to a PS2 vs Xbox or PS2 vs Gamecube or Gamecube vs Xbox comparison, although even those are not perfect analogies.
you're right though, we need to know more about the RSX.
the PS2 outclassed Dreamcast tremendously, in raw power and bandwidth. even nipping out the over-inflated hype of Sony's original claimed performance advantage of 20 to 50 times Dreamcast with PS2, the PS2 was still 3 to 5 times more powerful in raw performance, and PS3's advantage over Xbox 360 will be alot less than this. maybe 50% more at best, in certain areas. and Xbox 360 will have a number of advantages over PS3.
it should be *closer* to a PS2 vs Xbox or PS2 vs Gamecube or Gamecube vs Xbox comparison, although even those are not perfect analogies.
you're right though, we need to know more about the RSX.
Okay, one last round.
They are discussing the known specs, and say so. They're doing exaclty what everyone else is doing, and own up to what assumptions they've made. And admit that they are posturing their system to be in the best light. Talking out of turn? Sony claimed their system was twice as powerful based off what MS had released, and MS if firing back. Why is MS talking out of turn when Sony is not?
As for the last comment, fair enough. But I'm not begging off on anything - I said up front that I'm not a techie, and then was quoted a VERY techichal analysis. And I then said it was over my head. If the translation of that stuff was "the 360 is much less effecient than the PS3" and a site like Ars or a guy like Pana said it, I would trust it. As I've said over and over, I fully expect the PS3 to be more powerful. How much more? I have no idea and don't claim to.
Again, you saw it with a level of clarity that went right over the heads of a huge proportion of the viewers and attendees. The fallout speaks for itself.
Yes, MS showed some rendered stuff as well, and I'm just as ticked about that. I thought the PGR3 footage was realtime and was PISSED afterwords that it wasn't. But then they ALSO put actual games on the floor, which took balls considering how early their stuff is. Thus, my comment that my opinion of MS is decidedly mixed.
kaching said:
They are discussing the known specs, and say so. They're doing exaclty what everyone else is doing, and own up to what assumptions they've made. And admit that they are posturing their system to be in the best light. Talking out of turn? Sony claimed their system was twice as powerful based off what MS had released, and MS if firing back. Why is MS talking out of turn when Sony is not?
As for the last comment, fair enough. But I'm not begging off on anything - I said up front that I'm not a techie, and then was quoted a VERY techichal analysis. And I then said it was over my head. If the translation of that stuff was "the 360 is much less effecient than the PS3" and a site like Ars or a guy like Pana said it, I would trust it. As I've said over and over, I fully expect the PS3 to be more powerful. How much more? I have no idea and don't claim to.
Again, you saw it with a level of clarity that went right over the heads of a huge proportion of the viewers and attendees. The fallout speaks for itself.
Yes, MS showed some rendered stuff as well, and I'm just as ticked about that. I thought the PGR3 footage was realtime and was PISSED afterwords that it wasn't. But then they ALSO put actual games on the floor, which took balls considering how early their stuff is. Thus, my comment that my opinion of MS is decidedly mixed.
WE DON'T KNOW WHICH IS MORE POWERFUL.
50% at best is baseless speculation. Geez.
And even if its only a tiny and hardly noticable improvement, people will sadly buy PS3 simply because 'its the best one'. Similar to reasons used for buying xbox over PS2. It WAS an advantage for MS this gen, and they will not have it next time - however noticeable or not the differences are.
50% at best is baseless speculation. Geez.
And even if its only a tiny and hardly noticable improvement, people will sadly buy PS3 simply because 'its the best one'. Similar to reasons used for buying xbox over PS2. It WAS an advantage for MS this gen, and they will not have it next time - however noticeable or not the differences are.
midnightguy said:
Yeah, I threw that out there as a worst case scenario to present some sort of reference point. People should be able to see how much of a difference there was from the DC to the PS2. But you're right, that was a significant advantage, and not one we're likely to see with just a 6 month gap. I honestly shouldn't even make such guesses with such a large piece of info missing. The extrapolated data looks interesting, but how useful or accurate that info may be is questionable. I'm worried that with RSX yet to tape out, that we might be months away from hearing anything conclusive. PEACE.
Amir0x said:
Defenses? My observation is that this is the EXACT same bullshit that Sony puts out and all of a sudden I'm defending it? Wow.
I am not saying what you are saying I'm saying. To make this more clear:
1) I find the entire stats war hilarious. I've been deliberately poking my head in because guys like you get so worked up about it. I find you responses very, very funny. "Shits and giggles"? I have not heard that one since high school.
2) I could give a shit which system is more powerful. I owned the Genesis and Dreamcast both and loved'em. At this point, I'm not currently planning on buying any of them at launch and I play games far less than I used to. I bought four new games all of last year. One of them was published by Microsoft (Halo 2). So much for my "favorite videogame company". That, my friend, would be Sega.
3) Yes, have a low opinion of Sony. Oh, the scandal!
4) Let me spell out a "mixed view". I think MS is an abusive monopoly in their core industry who makes shit software. (I'm on Firefox currently.) I think they did a great job with the XBox and XBox Live, and I'm a big fan of Bungie. I think they fucked up big time with the backwards compatabliity issue with the 360, had a mixed E3 showing and ran a decidely insulting MTV "unveiling" of their new system.
Similar view of Major Nelson. Interesting blog (lots of great links to tech sites, he's a gadget freak), too much corporate PR. I sift through to find the stuff I like.
5) You are dense my frind. Lead has NOTHING on you.
6) My baby girl is FINALLY asleep, so I can stop entertaining myself by watching you all but explode online and go to bed now. Hope you are calmer in the moring.
GhaleonEB said:
No, that's your clarification. Your actual defenses are decidedly more muddied.
GhaleonEB said:
You have pierced my thinly veiled heart. Not once, but twice you have exposed me for the immature young'un I am! Who knows, maybe I can't even buy my own alcohol yet!
GhaleonEB said:
SEGA no longer makes hardware. In there place, you have put Microsoft.
GhaleonEB said:
No surprise there. No scandal, either. That's the whole point. You're incapable of being objective.
GhaleonEB said:
Man, all this and you certainly have barely made note of it with all your passive attacks of every little strategy/movie that you interpret goes wrong at Sony or Nintendo camp.
You should spread the hate out.
GhaleonEB said:
He's a gadget freak that intentionally tries to mislead his reading audience. I guess from that we can assume your standards cannot possibly be that high. Especially since you admitted you're not a techie, and yet you feel the need to visit another technie who does naught but bullshit for his (and your) favorite hardware company.
GhaleonEB said:6) My baby girl is FINALLY asleep, so I can stop entertaining myself by watching you all but explode online and go to bed now. Hope you are calmer in the moring.
Nighty night. Sweet dreams.
Nobody said it wasn't out of turn on both sides. Without full disclosure of hardware technical specifications on both sides, everybody is talking out of turn whenever they try to make direct comparisons right now. But you were the one saying earlier in this thread that calling out such comparisons as bullshit wasn't sufficient on that basis alone. These guys should stick to discussing what they know about the X360 architecture and how its design will make it a good game machine - they have the option to elevate the conversation above the level of partisan mudslinging but choose not to.GhaleonEB said:
This isn't about people lacking the ability to see things clearly, this is about people wanting to stir the pot and muddy the waters.
Why? What's the big deal? There's no rational reason to be ticked at them for presenting prerendered content that they haven't been given the opportunity to prove whether they can achieve in realtime or not. Give MS and Sony the chance to prove whether they can live up to the goals they set, then hold them accountable if they fail.
Come on, that didn't take balls - they're saying they're launching the platform worldwide in 6 months. It's just common sense that they'd better have actual games to show by now.
How so? There are two guys at B3D with 360 knowledge, and one of them works on the PS3. There may be more, I'm not sure. Like I said in my last post though, I shouldn't even be venturing such guesses b/c there's nothing public about RSX yet. But you've got me curious. Why is the PS2-Xbox analogy off? In what way? If you know more, I'd like to know. I was thinking more about the visual differences, but admit it's impossible for me to know for certain. Anyway, it's late. I was gonna stay up for the F1 practice, but I think it's time to call it a night.Pug said:
PEACE.Amir0x said:
You once again illustrate that you can't read. I say one thing, you say "no, you're saying something else". I gotta admit, that's tough to argue against. What are my "actual defenses?" That the MS stuff is PR? I've been saying that all along.
...as my hardware supplier. Yes, that's deep, cutting insight. Half the games I own for the XBox are published by Sega. Three of them are by Microsoft. You attempts to peg me as a Microsoft fan is failing, because it ain't there.
I don't recall ever claiming to be objective. No more than you do. Sony's system didn't interest me last gen, and so far it does not interest me this gen. For the record, I was pretty comtemptable of the XBox when it was announced, but warmed up to it after it was out for year. Panzer Dragoon Orta is what did it. So it's possible I'll warm up to it. I sure like the PS2 a lot MORE now that I did two years ago - just not quite enough to buy one.
No hate in there to spread. Just love.
I love how since you lost the battle calling Microsoft my favoite videogame company, now you've switched to calling them my favorite hardware company. A quick rundown on on my past systems:
Sega Master System
Sega Genesis
Sega-CD (ghaleon, and all)
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast
Microsoft XBox
If I had to rank them, the Genesis would come out on top, followed by the Saturn then the XBox. Sorry, MS has to settle for third place.
As for Major Nelson, you give him too much credit. I think he really believes in what he is saying, rather than trying to deliberately deceive. I laughed when I read that big four part stat-fest when he posted it. It's like they were trying to out-Sony Sony. Still think it's cool he took questions and then brought in the tech guys to answer some of them.
That said, yeah I like the rest of the blog. I also like cheap pizza, financial analysis and James Cameron movies. Take shots all you want at my 'taste' - I'm pretty content with it. Speaking of taste, welcome to my "Ignore" list.
kaching said:
If MS had said, "this is the visual target we are shooting for" and ran the clip, that would have been fine. Again, my issue is not with rendered movies per se. It is with presenting them in the context of an actual game. With PGR3, I learned two days later, in an interview with J Allard, that it was rendered. I sure hope they hit that target, but I didn't appreciate being implicitly deceived. It's the same thing Sony did - realtime, realtime, movie, movie, movie, etc. without much, if any, clarification as to what is what.
You keep saying you saw Sony distinguish - again, I didn't see it, and didn't see anyone else at the time who did. I found it deceptive.
I hope the sytems hit those target films - that would rock. I hope this gen is as good as it could be - but when publishers have to show rendered movies to convince me, I'm just not sold. As the cliche goes, show me the money.
hukasmokincaterpillar
Member
mrklaw said:
I guess. But I think most people will buy it because of the Playstation brand name and its legacy of content to go along with the inevitable next gen hype. I dunno if Id call that "sad" though.
hukasmokincaterpillar
Member
GhaleonEB said:
The new Pope would like to have a word with you. I believe he has a trophy or gift certificate of some sort.
GhaleonEB said:
Wow. I don't really know what you want me to say, other than you missed the point so directly that it's astonishing. The point is how clearly you're trying to muddy the waters simply because Microsoft is your favorite hardware developer... Before we explore even more direct examples in this very post of yours, let's explore your past history with this MajorNelson subject. I'm sure you'll try to explain these away...
Based on the original thread where MajorNelson's first factually false analysis was posted, some of your comments. They're enlightening in so much as they depict a very clear purpose. The following you determined JUST from MajorNelson's commentary...
GhaleonEB said:
Really, now? Is it? Is that what it's looking like?
Let's look at an example at you muddying the waters...
GhaleonEB said:
So... you want people to explain to you how these are not fair comparrisons, which is fine but also establishes that you're more than willing to give MajorNelson's bullshit a chance even as it was established for posts and posts it was bullshit. So what do you do? You muddy the waters with the final sentence - "Note, I think it's bullshit - like Sony!" A weak attempt at playing both sides of the fence. Very shallow.
Actually, just read the whole thread here. You go from quiet optimisim about Microsoft's asserted advantage by MajorNelson at the start, to defense of it by saying they're just playing Sony's game (which you admit pisses you off, but not enough to stop supporting the asshats), to passive fanboyism by saying everyone is being hypocrites and feeding Sony's hype (hilarious!), to admitting it's PR bullshit but asking everyone to prove why it's false, to finally saying you feel PS3 WILL have an advantage, but if Xbox360 ended up more powerful Microsoft would have pulled off a miracle - all of this, we note, without you having an iota of technical knowledge (your own assertion).
At the end you even tried to go to a few threads and claim you couldn't believe I was taking you seriously, which I believed at first but eventually found to be just as disingenuous as your other claims. Cleverly, you even edited out some of the more outrageous posts in the first MajorNelson thread, making for some suspicious reading at best. I read them at the time so you also know the content of them, but we know the honesty behind these things.
If that's not muddying the waters, my friend, we have different concepts.
GhaleonEB said:
Uhm, SEGA does not make hardware anymore. You realize that, right? Your bias for Microsoft hardware does not change simply because you buy mostly SEGA games. Shit, in one thread when asked what console X would have to have for you to buy it, you said for Xbox "Kameo, Perfect Dark Zero" and for PS3 you said "Not a chance in hell." You're certainly not going to win any fans this way, you'll acknowledge, but the point is not to be objective, it's to stop bullshitting around in these threads when your only purpose is to try to spin.
GhaleonEB said:
So then, why participate in this discussion? You don't know tech, you don't know why MajorNelson is bullshit, you're clearly biased and your sole purpose seems to be to spin. Why participate? You don't need to be objective to participate, naturally, but it also doesn't help that you're so slanted that it's difficult to take anything you say seriously. It also contributes to an atmosphere where doublestandards thrive.
GhaleonEB said:
And now, for the hilarious section of your post. I'm sorry, is SEGA MASTER SYSTEM in this generation? Did I miss the great games released for it these past 5 years? Oh, no? What about Saturn? Shit. We're talkin' about THIS gen. Dreamcast is dead. Your alternative IS Xbox, and you spin for it. That's fine, but don't try to claim otherwise. Which is, once more, the point - you're muddying the waters and you're not doing a convincing job.
Anyway, what happened to your baby? Went to sleep? You still awake, huh. Moth to flames, as am I.
When you can keep your potty mouth under control.Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
I have a couple questions.
1. Would it be fair to assume that both ps3 and x360 will be able to produce at least dx9 level graphics?
2. What new effects will we see from these machines, or will they just do everything faster and better in comparison to what a top of the line computer can do at this time?
1. Would it be fair to assume that both ps3 and x360 will be able to produce at least dx9 level graphics?
2. What new effects will we see from these machines, or will they just do everything faster and better in comparison to what a top of the line computer can do at this time?
Shogmaster
Member
It's threads like this that makes me want to take a good 3 month break from gaming forum. Call me when X360 final hardware game pics/videos start appearing. I'm going to be bailing out from this clusterfuck and hanging out at the OT forum till then.
A few more observations on Major Nelsons blog:
I think their breakdown of the RSX architecture is logical, all the math seems to add up and it looks to me to be a good bet?
Their updated comparison of shader ops looks quite shaky. They seem to be doing exactly what they accuse Sony of doing with their TFLOPS figures, which is looking for anything that might conceivably count as an op. If this is meant to be anything like a meaningfull like for like comparison, then I don't see how they can include the 32 flow control operations, and I think the vertex fetch tesselation ops are dodgy too. I mean shader ops is a dodgy metric anyway, but they are the ones trying to make comparisons. Any other thoughts?
I think their breakdown of the RSX architecture is logical, all the math seems to add up and it looks to me to be a good bet?
Their updated comparison of shader ops looks quite shaky. They seem to be doing exactly what they accuse Sony of doing with their TFLOPS figures, which is looking for anything that might conceivably count as an op. If this is meant to be anything like a meaningfull like for like comparison, then I don't see how they can include the 32 flow control operations, and I think the vertex fetch tesselation ops are dodgy too. I mean shader ops is a dodgy metric anyway, but they are the ones trying to make comparisons. Any other thoughts?