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[BeOnEdge]

i've always thought that MS was making a huge mistake by releasing x2 next christmas. in reality though, if ps3 launches in japan in march 2006, the gap is really only 3-4 months. You cant expect MS to wait for sony to launch in the US when they will have already launched in japan 6 months earlier(march 2006-oct-nov 2006). With MS being an american company i remember that an american launch 1st makes more sense.

Launching in both the UK and US forst make more sense as thats where there largest audience is. so we have a 3-4 month gap and launches in 3 parts of the world. UK and US for xbox and JP for PS3. not bad! Brings me to something else though too. with the possibility of only a 3-4 month span between the 2, i'm starting to think that maybe the 2 will actually be pretty damn close tech wise. in previous thinking it seemed as x2 would be a full year older when it actually isnt. a few months is nothing.

 

[Mejilan]

Why the fuck would we waste time talking about a couple of new consoles that hit in another 1 or 2 years when we could, instead, talk about the new portables hitting within the next few months!!!1111!!1111

;p

 

[GaimeGuy]

Why the fuck would we waste time talking about a couple of new consoles that hit in another 1 or 2 years when we could, instead, talk about the new portables hitting within the next few months!!!1111!!1111

;p

IAWTP

 

[BeOnEdge]

cuz portables stink of hot gaaaaaabage.

 

[Mejilan]

cuz MS systems stink of hot gaaaaaabage.

Fixed. ;p

 

[DSN2K]

2005 launch is a mistake and it will see the end of the hardware project if thats not already planned.

 

[BeOnEdge]

2005 launch is a mistake and it will see the end of the hardware project if thats not already planned.

why is a mistake if the difference is 3 months? why give sony the advantage of sales in japan when MS can keep it even with sales from the UK and US?

Fixed. ;p

OMG i think i'll go cry now!!! now dare you badmouth MS!!! :lol

 

[DSN2K]

3-4 months is all Sony need to spin their web of bullshit.

regardless of time frame, to the average gamer the xbox2 will be inferior. Add that to mighty "Playstation" brand Microsoft will be in whole lot of trouble.

 

[BeOnEdge]

thats where the tech argument comes from. if the tech really is only 3 months apart, there will be no noticable difference. this is will not be DC vs PS2.

 

[Mejilan]

Seriously, I don't think any of us can really answer this question. Wait til E3, I say.

 

[BeOnEdge]

oh my god you TROLL!!!

 

[nathkenn]

i cant wait till i get the dev kit on my desk hehe, though I still think sony is gonna cream ms

 

[element]

developers have kits for xenon and not for PS3. if the systems have a 3 months window, xenon has the advantage.

 

[nathkenn]

the basic tech is essentially the same, so whatever comes out will get a badass polished version on the ps3

 

[Argyle]

Developers don't have final devkits for Xenon AFAIK, so it may not be as big an advantage as it might seem (final Xenon hardware should be somewhat different than the Mac based alpha kits floating about)...

We'll see if Sony can get preliminary hardware to people this winter...

 

[COCKLES]

Makes sense from MS's point of view. One of the big points for Xbox is quick ports of big PC titles...next years stuff simply will be too advanced / memory hungry for the Xbox to cope. Plus, they probably want to release it early so they can get Perfect Dark out of the fucking door.

 

[jarrod]

I really don't see PS3 ready by March 2006 (which would actually be 4 months after a Nov 2005 Xenon)... I'm thinking June 2006 in Japan at the absolute earliest (with a fall/winter American & European launch). Given the trouble SCEI's had getting PSP together, I kinda doubt developers will be getting PS3 kits anytime soon either... and Revolution will be even later I bet.

 

[Spike]

With games like Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2, Zelda, Wanda, MGS3:Snake Eater, GT4, showing the power of this gen's systems, the next-gen can take as long as it wants to get here.

 

[nathkenn]

With games like Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2, Zelda, Wanda, MGS3:Snake Eater, GT4, showing the power of this gen's systems, the next-gen can take as long as it wants to get here.

agreed, and i'm going to be working a lot of 12 hour days because of the early release

 

[Mejilan]

With games like Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2, Zelda, Wanda, MGS3:Snake Eater, GT4, showing the power of this gen's systems, the next-gen can take as long as it wants to get here.

I agree. As exciting as new tech is, I'm actually (and surprisingly) in no rush to see this generation end.

Though I hope it proves false, I fear this holiday season will be, in a way, a last hurrah for this gen. And I really want to get another full and uncompromised year before readying myself for the next gen.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I'm more than ready for the next gen personally. I think it's a combination of things that has me getting a little tired of the current gen.

First of all, it is already over 4 1/2 years since the PS2 came out, so it's getting on for that 5 year time. On top of that you have the fact that I've been following this gen graphics since long before that, since the first PS2 demos were revealed in fact. That's different to previous generations for me, I hardly followed the build up at all N64/PS1 era, I just played the games. In fact, you can probably go as far back as the DC launch for the sort of graphics we're still seeing today. It's in range anyway, I know there are plenty of games out that the DC could never have hoped to have handled, but it's around there. So we're getting to around 6 years now.

It's the way the consoles have been released this gen that has really done it. From DC to Xbox, we had 3 years of releases before all the players were even out there to compete (and one had already been eliminated).

So bring on the next gen, I can take another year of games looking to this standard, but I'm not sure I could take more than that.

 

[Fafalada]

thats where the tech argument comes from. if the tech really is only 3 months apart, there will be no noticable difference. this is will not be DC vs PS2.

Doesn't matter - Xenon being designed for high utilization rather then high peak numbers will look the big looser on paper, and that's all Sony needed to put major hurt on DC initially too.

 

[nathkenn]

it's going to especially suck if they skimp on the ram in the xenon >:|

 

[sonycowboy]

I hope Sony waits until late 2006. I expect this next generation to start much slower than the current one, where the PS2 shot out of the gates. I think people will still be playing their PS2's and very much be happy with the quality of the Xbox titles. I know the new systems will be a big jump, but it won't be as big as PSOne -> PS2, and so people won't be as quick to jump.

I also expect publishers to try and ease the transition by splitting releases by releasing titles strategically.

 

[DCharlie]

"it's going to especially suck if they skimp on the ram in the xenon >:|"

any thoughts on the difference in graphics card?

As you mentioned, XB2 and PS3 are going to be close to each other in terms of performance. The worrying thing for me if (i were sony) would be that we'd spent billions (way more than on PS2) more to produce near as damn it the same results as MS are going to give with the XBox 2.

On the surface of it, the graphics card could well make a difference (?) Toshiba vs Ati...

"I know the new systems will be a big jump, but it won't be as big as PSOne -> PS2, and so people won't be as quick to jump."

yeah, agreed. Athough Development easy could then become a factor. If either turns out to be a bitch to code for, and the other is easy, then the demonstratable improvement of one of the other could be a clinching factore.

"I also expect publishers to try and ease the transition by splitting releases by releasing titles strategically."

... i really really pray that they do, but i just think they are too retarded to sort this out just yet.

 

[Datawhore]

I think there are millions of people who purchased a PS2 in 2000/2001 and will have significant "graphics-envy" compared to current and 2005 PC games like Doom 3, HL2 and WOW. This will do a lot to drive demand for next-gen in late 2005.

Also, I doubt anyone on GAF will be pissed off once they're finally here... its a full year away and that's a long time in the games industry. We'll be dying for better graphics in a years time on our home consoles.

 

[Mama Smurf]

"I also expect publishers to try and ease the transition by splitting releases by releasing titles strategically."

... i really really pray that they do, but i just think they are too retarded to sort this out just yet.

It's alright for EA to talk about this stuff and urge other third parties to do the same, but EA are huge and rolling in it. Do the smaller third parties really want to have two teams now so they can have a this gen and next gen version of a game?

Personally I'm going to find it extremely interesting seeing how we, with our trained eyes, see graphics next gen. Will we still be able to tell the difference between the different systems' graphics, or will we be like the more casual gamers this gen and not really be able to tell the difference? I suspect the latter. With the average game, it's pretty easy to tell the difference between an Xbox game and a PS2 game for example, but the differences between Xbox and GC (when one of the system's hasn't got shafted with a shoddy port) are much smaller. Which, assuming these release dates we hear are right, will be more like the differences we see this time round.

 

[Lord Error]

My thoughts about this, in case that MS really launches at the holiday 2005:

If Sony can be ready to launch then, they will - probably both in Japan and the US at the same time. EA people hinted at that. If they are not ready (more likely scenario, IMO) they know full well they gain absolutely nothing by launching only two months later in the Japan, and at the end of 2006 in the US. Launching so soon after MS, in the market where MS won't launch yet, and has slim chances to begin with, will only undermine the chance to develop hardware further and make it more powerful and cheaper, but won't gain them anything. Earliest that makes sense for them is June-July 2006 Japan, then US as soon as possible. Sure, Xbox 2 will be selling steadily for all that time, but Sony will at least have something substantial to pit against it once it's done, in other words they will have something to hype in the meantime. Can you imagine having to hype something like "Yes, our console will have essentially the same hardware power as Xbox 2, but you should wait 3-4 more months for it... er, please?"

As you mentioned, XB2 and PS3 are going to be close to each other in terms of performance. The worrying thing for me if (i were sony) would be that we'd spent billions (way more than on PS2) more to produce near as damn it the same results as MS are going to give with the XBox 2.p

Er, it's not like Microsoft doesn't spend billions on their next console... How do you expect to make something like that? for peas?

 

[DCharlie]

"Er, it's not like Microsoft doesn't spend billions on their next console... How do you expect to make something like that? for peas?"

MS aren't involved in developing Cell for instance and aren't saddled with funding Bluray costs.

Granted , they'll be used in other tech, but i seriously doubt that MS will have paid anything near what Sony are going to end up paying to get the PS3 up and running.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Cell better be fucking good, that's all I'll say (mainly because I don't really understand the whole thing).

 

[nathkenn]

"it's going to especially suck if they skimp on the ram in the xenon >:|"

any thoughts on the difference in graphics card?

As you mentioned, XB2 and PS3 are going to be close to each other in terms of performance. The worrying thing for me if (i were sony) would be that we'd spent billions (way more than on PS2) more to produce near as damn it the same results as MS are going to give with the XBox 2.

On the surface of it, the graphics card could well make a difference (?) Toshiba vs Ati...
.

too early to tell, when it all comes down to it tho, the next gen is going to be a lot more about art and developer resources than some chinsy hardware feature

 

[Lord Error]

MS aren't involved in developing Cell for instance and aren't saddled with funding Bluray costs.

However, they will end up paying a lot more for the outsorced manufacturing of chips and parts. It all probably evens up at the end, and Sony is maybe even at the advantage as far as prices go, being able to produce their own parts.

 

[Mama Smurf]

too early to tell, when it all comes down to it tho, the next gen is going to be a lot more about art and developer resources than some chinsy hardware feature

That's true, the gulf between the smaller third parties and the large ones will get even bigger next gen. In the past, and even with this gen to a degree, it hasn't been as big a problem as it'll become, because the power of the systems gave a threshold that you could reach (or get close to at least) whether you had a hundred people on your team or twenty.

Now though, with so much power to play with, it's going to be like "Well you can make these models so detailed that you see individual strands of threads going through button holes; you can fill this area with grass that has hundreds of individual blades that move with a realistic physics engine when you touch them or when the intricate wind system blows through them; you can give your character a necklace with individual links that react to movement just as it they would in real life, light bouncing off each one...as long as you have hundreds of artists and programmers, and plenty of money, and can afford that extra year's development time...." and that's just not going to be the case for the smaller (or even medium sized) developers.

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the next gen we have no more than 10 main publishers left, and about the same number of budget teams.

 

[Fafalada]

The worrying thing for me if (i were sony) would be that we'd spent billions (way more than on PS2) more to produce near as damn it the same results as MS are going to give with the XBox 2.

The indications so far have it there will definately be at least on paper difference - even if it doesn't translate into anything substantial. And Sony marketting has demonstrated before how to work that to their advantage.

Besides, isn't that what all haters are looking forward to? A machine where a couple of numbers are almost a bit 'too' high just so that they can condemn the design for being 'inefficient' or 'unbalanced' or whatever.
See, Sony makes sure it's a win for everyone...

 

[Lord Error]

too early to tell, when it all comes down to it tho, the next gen is going to be a lot more about art and developer resources than some chinsy hardware feature

It's arguably already like that.

However, and as someone else said above, if you are able to see the difference, in the, say mip mapping between PS2 and GC game, or see how much downgraded a game like Wreckless or Splinter Cell got from Xbox to GC and PS2 (extreme examples, I know), same can happen the next gen. Not saying it necessarily will, but if PS3 or Revolution is say, fast enough to do realtime sub surface scattering, and Xbox 2 is not, that will show, and stand out.

 

[DCharlie]

"Besides, isn't that what all haters are looking forward to? A machine where a couple of numbers are almost a bit 'too' high just so that they can condemn the design for being 'inefficient' or 'unbalanced' or whatever.
See, Sony makes sure it's a win for everyone... "

God bless them!

 

[Fafalada]

or see how much downgraded a game like Wreckless or Splinter Cell got from Xbox to GC and PS2 (extreme examples, I know),

Oh come now. SC still looks similar across platforms, no matter what respective fanboys want to argue. More importantly it's actually not a bad looking game on either GC or PS2 (which is amazing considering how quickly it was done).

Wreckless port on the other hand is right up there with Love Smash and World Racing competing for ugliest PS2 title. And THAT's rather drastic considering original is one of XBox's hallmark titles visually...

Anyway, unless machines are very similar to work with, disparities will still happen - but so long as the memory is close, I doubt they will be big.

 

[nathkenn]

I don't think the smaller developers will dissapear, just because we can go to an insane amount of detail doesnt mean you have to.

*goes back to playing his genesis*

 

[Mama Smurf]

or see how much downgraded a game like Wreckless or Splinter Cell got from Xbox to GC and PS2 (extreme examples, I know)

Those are crappy ports though. I mean, when you look at the best looking games built from the ground up on a system, there's not that much difference this gen.

Ok, let's say we lived in some wacky world where none of the games I'm about to list have been seen, and all are original (so, for example, Halo 2 [despite it's number, just play along] is an original franchise, there was never any Halo to give away the sequel's system). Let's pretend they all get shots released at once (real shots, no enhancements like higher resolutions) and we have to name which system each is for:

Halo 2
Zelda (New)
GT4
Panzer Dragoon Orta
MGS3
Ratchet & Clank 3
Jet Grind Radio
F-Zero GX
RE4
Dragon Quest VIII
Viewtiful Joe
Ninja Gaiden
Star Wars: Rogue Leader
FFX
Splinter Cell

Ok, so there we have the games. Only screens are released, no information on who's made them, no indicator of which system they're on. Could you pick out which game goes on which system? I sure as hell couldn't.

Anyway, my point is it's going to go even more that way next gen.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I don't think the smaller developers will dissapear, just because we can go to an insane amount of detail doesnt mean you have to.

*goes back to playing his genesis*

I didn't say smaller developers would disappear, I said publishers. The smaller developers will be absorbed by the large publishers.

 

[nathkenn]

I didn't say smaller developers would disappear, I said publishers. The smaller developers will be absorbed by the large publishers.

gotcha

 

[Lord Error]

Oh come now. SC still looks similar across platforms, no matter what respective fanboys want to argue. More importantly it's actually not a bad looking game on either GC or PS2 (which is amazing considering how quickly it was done).

Those are crappy ports though. I mean, when you look at the best looking games built from the ground up on a system, there's not that much difference this gen.

I know, I know, but my point was, that stuff like Wreckles happens every now and then, especially when you build games from the ground up on one platform. Also, some people are able to tell even differences that are not that big generally, like worse mip mapping in many PS2 games, etc.

I agree that majority of multiplatform games probably won't differ much next gen though. Probably will differ even less than they do today.

 

[BeOnEdge]

how far apart were xb and ps2 tech wise? a year and a half? yet ms just took parts from all over the place and made a machine that whooped ps2 graphically. ps2 fans wont admit it but thats the advantage that sony has with ps2 being the lead console. few games(team ninja)will show how big the gap was.

sony spend alot on R&D on ps2 and MS took PC junk. of course sony is enjoying the benefits NOW, it took 4 years to get where they are as far as profiting on the system. sony AGAIN is spending bucks on R&D and fab but tech wise it looks like MS instead of going in to blow sony out of the water, they can come in at about the same level without all the expensive R&D and make up slack in ease of creating software with XNA.

 

[Ghost]

I think it'll be a real shame if they launch in 2005 (looks like they will), i look at games like Halo 2, Conker etc etc and see the gap between what the consoles can do technically finally starting to show, launching a new system (especially one thats not compatible with xbox titles) is going to totally wreck the momentum MS have slowly built up over the last two years, every developer will be back at square one (And so will the third party support because publishers will be faced with another fledgling user base in the face of two well established ones).

I seriously think they could launch at the same time as PS3 and hold their own, Sony have always sucked at launches, and MS has already had kits out for 3 months so i have no doubt they'd have the better launch line up. Sony would probably still edge out MS on the strength of the brand alone but who knows what another year of equal quality in Xbox titles to this one could do.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

I have been extremly hard on Xenon's chances, but I'm trying to be realistic and open-minded in this topic. Launching earlier & having a Christmas holiday advantage could be extremly good for them if done right. For example, Episode III (I just have this feeling), is going to be HUGE...a new Xenon version of an Episode III game stacked up against "inferior" current generation versions could be big for MS. They've already done alot to steal alot of N64 fans (FPS's, RARE games, Tom Clansey games, Star Wars games). At launch, you can absolutly bet on a RARE game, a Tom Clansey game, FPS's & PC ports galore and with the best version of the new Episode III game they solidfy their market and those audiences from the getgo...all before (thanks to an early launch) PS3 even comes out. But we still don't know some key things about Xenon:

1) We *still* don't know what's going on with BC. I think BC is *very* important as it'll help the transition from the first X-BOX over to Xenon, plus PS2er's who didn't own an X-BOX this generation would be attracted to the fact that they could get two brand new system's libraries (X-BOX & Xenon games) just by buying one system. Plus it's a feature the competition will have, not having it just makes them look bad as well as hurts the transistion from X-BOX to Xenon. They may be able to afford it, but could they better spend that money/energy on other stuff like: better tech., better features or a next-generation disc format?

2) We also don't know about that HD-DVD situation. NEC/Toshiba may go out of their way to get a HD-DVD drive in Xenon so that their format has more footing against BR than they would have without it being in there. This could definatly help MS as they could probably cut a better deal and save money, but even in late 2005 I doubt a HD-DVD drive will be cheap. Still though, it's a cost that will eventually go down unlike some of the fixed costs in the first X-BOX so they could later maintain that "road to profitablility" mentality that way. A big question may be though...what would win between BR & HD-DVD...even if HD-DVD uses Xenon to "launch" into the mainstream earlier than BR in PS3 will it matter? I even question how willing the public will be to adopt a next generation disc format already, especially when there's two competiting formats of which no one will know who'll "win". Yeah, it'd be good for games 'cos of higher capacity discs and faster transfer rates thru the drives...but people may not be ready for a new disc format in 2006, let alone 2005. I think as far as next generation movie discs goes it won't matter until HDTV's have more mainstream penetration which won't be until mid-way thru the next generation of game consoles, if-not...even later. So who knows, it might even be best to save (LOTS OF) money by sticking with a faster DVD drive and not fighting in the HD-DVD vs BR war...but will MS risk that?

3) Features. With MS talking up games and saying that Xenon will strictly be about games is that what people want/expect from MS? MS wants to turn a profit next generation, this much is clear...so they may have to cut the HD, cut BC and who knows, they may not even go with a next generation disc format. I know alot of people are sorta waiting for the next X-BOX to record CD's, be a media center, have TiVo and be a "PC in a box" even...what will they say when there's no HD, no industry standerd feature like BC and it could be extremly risky to either choose the wrong next-generation disc format or to even not have one at all. Alot of people who bought the first X-BOX, bought it 'cos of it's power edge and it's features...what happens when MS not only comes out (arguably) too early with Xenon, but also comes out without the power edge and/or features people EXPECT from them?

If PS3 is coming out that soon (March 2006) in Japan, and if MS can do the right thing with the big 3 questions I posed above then maybe a Christmas 2005 launch isn't a bad idea whatsoever...I mean it's not like the technilogical gap is going to be THAT big. Of course with competition right around the corner (not to mention PSP's push will be around the same time) in 2006 MS is going to have to do just about everything right to keep the momentum going into Xenon's launch and get enough support from publishers & gamers for that early launch to pay off.

People keep downplaying the BC issue, but I think it's a big one 'cos if they don't do it then it won't look good to their image...and image has been key to why everyone veiws them as a serious competitior to Sony. Not only that, but I think such a feature would REALLY attract a new audience who was thinking about buying the first X-BOX, but never did...if that feature isn't there, then alot of people will just wait for PS3. You say it only matters in the first couple of months...well...those will be the most crucial to the Xenon's life 'cos that's all it may have on the market alone to get a headstart...they need everything to make that worth their while. Then BC is also important due to the transition into next generation...they want to drop the money-losing X-BOX like a brick, without BC to it though, where does that leave their current fans and recent buyers? Game projects will either have to stay on the X-BOX which is prematurly on it's way out or will have to be moved to Xenon to catch attention...the momentum they have suddenly hits a brick wall durring a (again, arguably) premature jump into next generation. GAMECUBE & PS2 will have a good "last breath" around Xenon's launch *cough*Zelda*cough* while the first X-BOX will look lacking...yeah Xenon is there, but without BC it loses alot of momentum it might've had and definatly needed. Then couple the "bad news" of no BC in Xenon with anything else remotly "bad" and their image they worked so hard for *cough*billionsofdollars*cough* will start to go down the tubes.

Look at GAMECUBE, Nintendo had alot of momentum going into the "Dolphin" announcement...when it was unveiled with a toylike look and lack of DVD...BAM...most people pegged it as 3RD place before it even launched. That's why E3 2005 will be so interesting next year. *snickers*

 

[Mama Smurf]

Look at GAMECUBE, Nintendo had alot of momentum going into the "Dolphin" announcement...when it was unveiled with a toylike look and lack of DVD...BAM...most people pegged it as 3RD place before it even launched. That's why E3 2005 will be so interesting next year. *snickers*

That's not really true. Most people pegged it as "never gonna beat the PS2" before it launched, but it seemed there was a hell of a lot more going against MS at the time. They were the newcomers, MS wasn't cool but instead geeky (funny how the Xbox has gained such mainstream acceptance looking back), the Xbox controllers were too large (as was the console), it's games would consist purely of PC ports and it had no killer ap (when Halo was first playable it had a rubbish framerate).

GC definitely seemed the more likely to come second at first, but MS made a lot of good decisions, threw a lot of money around and struck gold with Halo. Most of us just didn't see it coming at first.

 

[P90]

With games like Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2, Zelda, Wanda, MGS3:Snake Eater, GT4, showing the power of this gen's systems, the next-gen can take as long as it wants to get here.

That and the exciting new handhelds, a 2005 launch is major dumb on MS' part. this is accentuated by no BC.

 

[BeOnEdge]

didnt GTA3 come out around xbox launch? that didnt hurt xbox sales. GC is dead after this fall. nintendos focus on the DS will prove that. Zelda wont effect ps3 or Xenon. A seemless LIVE transfer is equally as powerful as BC. If xenon launches with say PGR3, Killer Instict and Perfect Dark...a new Madden and all playable LIVE at launch, thats 1,000,000 gamers that may possibly jump at that in a snap.

 

[Brofist]

how far apart were xb and ps2 tech wise? a year and a half? yet ms just took parts from all over the place and made a machine that whooped ps2 graphically. ps2 fans wont admit it but thats the advantage that sony has with ps2 being the lead console. few games(team ninja)will show how big the gap was.

A year and a half is a long time in tech time. For PCs thats like almost 3 generations of video cards. Anyway we know this time around if anything it's speculated that Sony will have the better specs between the PS3 and Xenon, so that probably wont be an issue.

 

[Lord Error]

sony spend alot on R&D on ps2 and MS took PC junk.

I don't see how you can say it was PC junk when they got a graphics chip that was better than anything on the market at the time of Xbox launch? And that's a whole year and a half after the PS2 was out, which is a *huge* distance in the computer engineering timetable. I find it kinda surprising that you're downplaying PS2 so much and then come out and think that Xbox 2 will magically use the same level of technology as 6-8 months newer hardware. You should be happier off thinking how best looking PS2 games don't show that much of a gap, but anyways...

Xbox used to cost them more to make than the asking price was for it, and I think it still does. Sony was having large initial investments, but from the point of launch on - everything was profit for them. Microsoft follows their old philosophy, just smarter so that they don't lose money anymore, Sony follows their own philosophy which worked in the past.

I think it'll be a real shame if they launch in 2005 (looks like they will), i look at games like Halo 2, Conker etc etc and see the gap between what the consoles can do technically finally starting to show, launching a new

Well, if you wanted, you could look at games like Wreckless at the launch and see the difference in technical graphics. It's just that there aren't too many games like that, and as you said, I doubt there'll be too many of them in the future, as all the best Xbox devs are moving to next gen development.

A seemless LIVE transfer is equally as powerful as BC

Seamless live transfer doesn't give you any financial incentive to upgrade (you can't trade in the old hardware) nor it helps you reduce the clutter around your TV.