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[Kinitari]

What's wrong with what I responded with. You are deliberately mentioning our minimum wage as an excuse for people not to tip.

When peoples arguments for tipping are "They make less than minimum wage" - in Canada where they make Minimum wage most of the time, questions are asked.

 

[oneHeero]

Say what you want about him. You may think he is misguided and maybe an idiot but at least he ain't cheap.

Because not tipping 2bucks to a delivery guy who drove 5mins to my house and choose that job path makes me cheap. So be it, doesnt change the fact of what I've been stating over and over again.

 

[TemplaerDude]

Because not tipping 2bucks to a delivery guy who drove 5mins to my house and choose that job path makes me cheap. So be it, doesnt change the fact of what I've been stating over and over again.

what? dude he brought food to your fucking door!

you know what, you go out to a restaurant and you don't tip, fine, you're cheap. but you can't even slip a couple bucks to the guy who brought food right to your fucking house? that makes you a grade a douchebag.

 

[oneHeero]

what? dude he brought food to your fucking door!

you know what, you go out to a restaurant and you don't tip, fine, you're cheap. but you can't even slip a couple bucks to the guy who brought food right to your fucking house? that makes you a grade a douchebag.

I wish I could say you are a typical junior for not reading, but since you arent a junior I'll just lump you in the same pool as Kano, the idiot pool.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Because not tipping 2bucks to a delivery guy who drove 5mins to my house and choose that job path makes me cheap. So be it, doesnt change the fact of what I've been stating over and over again.

And it really doesn't change the fact that what you're doing is a dick move by all American social standards, which is what I've been stating over and over again. I think we can both agree to disagree about whether or not you're cheap or just dickish.

I'm going to go eat now anyway. I'll explain to the waitress for you that because it only took her 30 seconds to get to my table and she made a questionable career decision she won't be getting my money.

Solidarity, brother.

 

[Emerson]

I tip very well, usually 20% or higher, but if the service was bad I'll go down to about 15% or 10%. If they were an outright asshole, which rarely happens, I'd leave nothing.

 

[oneHeero]

And it really doesn't change the fact that what you're doing is a dick move by all American social standards, which is what I've been stating over and over again. I think we can both agree to disagree about whether or not you're cheap or just dickish.

I'm going to go eat now anyway. I'll explain to the waitress for you that because it only took her 30 seconds to get to my table and she made a questionable career decision she won't be getting my money.

Solidarity, brother.

Please do, so that when the delivery guy drops by within the next 20mins to drop off my pizza, I'll let him now my tip is for him to wait for the next Kano On The Phone guy to order a pizza and tip him more than usual to cover it for me.

 

[TemplaerDude]

I wish I could say you are a typical junior for not reading, but since you arent a junior I'll just lump you in the same pool as Kano, the idiot pool.

i have been reading actually, but i've been skipping most of the posts with your avatar because i read one and pretty much lumped you into the massive moron category. i only read that post by accident and was quite glad to see i was right.

sorry! you're stupid!

 

[Xeke]

Because not tipping 2bucks to a delivery guy who drove 5mins to my house and choose that job path makes me cheap. So be it, doesnt change the fact of what I've been stating over and over again.

You seem to have this crazy idea that people choose these jobs and you keep mentioning it. When I got my job as a delivery guy it was because it was one of the few jobs that fit around classes all day.

But of course, I guess I could have just quit, passed the bar exam and became a lawyer. My mistake.

Because not tipping 2bucks to a delivery guy who drove 5mins to my house and choose that job path makes me cheap. So be it, doesnt change the fact of what I've been stating over and over again

More over, you're making everybody who actually lives some distance from the pizza place and is nice to deal with wait longer because you're lazy as shit if you live that close and don't just drive yourself.

If you were a regular customer you'd probably be the last pizza dropped off, somebody has to be last, most likely not the customers who are friendly and generous.

 

[oneHeero]

i have been reading actually, but i've been skipping most of the posts with your avatar because i read one and pretty much lumped you into the massive moron category. i only read that post by accident and was quite glad to see i was right.

sorry! you're stupid!

If I knew what post you were referring to you I could show you how you'd be wrong, but since its your opinion than be all means, continue disregarding post and just judging people off single post. Just like an idiot. Cant have a actual discussion without the idiots who skim and post without thinking. Like I said, I've done it too so no worries

 

[TemplaerDude]

You seem to have this crazy idea that people choose these jobs and you keep mentioning it. When I got my job as a delivery guy it was because it was one of the few jobs that fit around classes all day.

But of course, I guess I could have just quit, passed the bar exam and became a lawyer. My mistake.

shhh! you're not reading! don't post!

If I knew what post you were referring to you I could show you how you'd be wrong, but since its your opinion than be all means, continue disregarding post and just judging people off single post. Just like an idiot. Cant have a actual discussion without the idiots who skim and post without thinking. Like I said, I've done it too so no worries

actually, what is going on is you refuse to admit your wrong on any counts at all and if anyone says anything that is even remotely negative towards you, you claim "TEH AREN'T READING".

but hey, no, i've pretended to be all knowing too so it's ok.

 

[Kinitari]

I have some questions - to maybe bring some unity and order back to this thread.

1. Is it unreasonable to not tip someone if they royally fuck up serving you?
2. Does anyone here never tip, regardless of how good or bad the server has done?
3. Would peoples tipping habits change if people were paid minimum wage for being in a tip-possible job?
4. Why do you think wait staff/bartenders seem to get special treatment in places like Canada, where most of them make minimum wage, but still feel tips are obligated?
5. Can we stop calling each other names and actually discuss the topic at hand without reverting to personal attacks?

 

[oneHeero]

You seem to have this crazy idea that people choose these jobs and you keep mentioning it. When I got my job as a delivery guy it was because it was one of the few jobs that fit around classes all day.

But of course, I guess I could have just quit, passed the bar exam and became a lawyer. My mistake.

Or you could have taken the time to look for a job that would be more lenient with your class schedule. Would you make as much? Probably not, but your making that choice to try to make more money as a delivery guy, KNOWING(at least I hope so) that you wont always get a tip and the job can get back if business slows down. Maybe you need to work the delivery job because it tends to pay pretty good and helps you cover bills/etc I dont know your situation. But I know my situation and know my wife's sitaution. We can make it on my salary and her's because are cost of living is low enough. She makes 10bucks an hour at walgreens.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Question to tip etiquette GAF: am I supposed to tip the waiter when I go to a buffet restaurant?

If there's minimal waiter/customer interaction am I still supposed to tip? I always do but sometimes I think I prolly don't have to since I technically "served myself".

 

[Big-E]

I have some questions - to maybe bring some unity and order back to this thread.

1. Is it unreasonable to not tip someone if they royally fuck up serving you?
2. Does anyone here never tip, regardless of how good or bad the server has done?
3. Would peoples tipping habits change if people were paid minimum wage for being in a tip-possible job?
4. Why do you think wait staff/bartenders seem to get special treatment in places like Canada, where most of them make minimum wage, but still feel tips are obligated?
5. Can we stop calling each other names and actually discuss the topic at hand without reverting to personal attacks?

1. Depends on your definition of fucking up. Getting orders wrong or forgetting is not royally fucking up. Only time I won't tip (and this has never happened to me) is if a server is flat out rude and says some disparaging remarks or gets angry with me. That is the only circumstance I can see myself not tipping but I have never had that happen to me
3. Irrelevant as minimum wage is still dogshit.
4. It is the way things are, you tip in the service industry.

 

[Narag]

Question to tip etiquette GAF: am I supposed to tip when I go to a buffet restaurant? If there's minimal waiter/customer interaction am I still supposed to tip? I always do but sometimes I think I prolly don't have to since I technically "served myself".

I know of two large chains that pay their servers well under minimum wage with the understanding they'll make it up in tips. One such place had a policy that if they weren't making enough tips to reach min. wage, they weren't going to serve anymore as the claimed tips served as a (flawed) metric of their ability.

 

[oneHeero]

1. Is it unreasonable to not tip someone if they royally fuck up serving you? Nope
3. Would peoples tipping habits change if people were paid minimum wage for being in a tip-possible job? Probably
4. Why do you think wait staff/bartenders seem to get special treatment in places like Canada, where most of them make minimum wage, but still feel tips are obligated? Not sure bout Canada, but apparently its how America is and we should accept it.
5. Can we stop calling each other names and actually discuss the topic at hand without reverting to personal attacks? Unfortunately not, I dont shy away from who I think or feel, I expect the same as others. If they think I'm stupid thats their choice, I wont argue with him to think I'm not. They've formed their opinion as I've formed mine.

 

[KHarvey16]

Or you could have taken the time to look for a job that would be more lenient with your class schedule.

How much money does he make while he's waiting? A lot of people don't have the luxury of waiting for a better opportunity.

 

[oneHeero]

How much money does he make while he's waiting? A lot of people don't have the luxury of waiting for a better opportunity.

While I looked for a better paying job, I actually took a job working with a friend at a survey company in the mall. Granted its his choice, but its not like he's tied to doing deliveries, that's all I was saying.

 

[KHarvey16]

While I looked for a better paying job, I actually took a job working with a friend at a survey company in the mall. Granted its his choice, but its not like he's tied to doing deliveries, that's all I was saying.

You were fortunate enough to have such an opportunity. Many others are not. Acting like someone can just up and leave their job, or that they "chose" to work there, comes off as very naive.

 

[Big-E]

While I looked for a better paying job, I actually took a job working with a friend at a survey company in the mall. Granted its his choice, but its not like he's tied to doing deliveries, that's all I was saying.

Hmmmm, I wonder how you got the job.

 

[Xeke]

Or you could have taken the time to look for a job that would be more lenient with your class schedule. Would you make as much? Probably not, but your making that choice to try to make more money as a delivery guy, KNOWING(at least I hope so) that you wont always get a tip and the job can get back if business slows down. Maybe you need to work the delivery job because it tends to pay pretty good and helps you cover bills/etc I dont know your situation. But I know my situation and know my wife's sitaution. We can make it on my salary and her's because are cost of living is low enough. She makes 10bucks an hour at walgreens.

Not everybody lives where you live, or has the same job market you have or has the option to look for other jobs. They're shitty jobs and few people working there want it as a long time job.

I don't understand your stance on delivery people. They do the same exact thing as a waiter, most likely take your order on the phone, sometimes even make it, like late a 1am on a friday night when they'd rather not be there. They then drive to your house for you, unlike a waiter who only has to walk to your table. Often times with 4 or 5 pizzas in the car of people all expecting them you to be rushing straight to your house.

Yes I was fortunate, but if times got hard for me I wouldnt hesitate taking a shit job at the local grocery store or fast food chain. Which are always largely available, its his choice if he doesnt want to take that job though. I dont blame him if he doesnt/wouldnt want too.

If that job doesn't pay the bills then it is useless. The idea behind a waiting/delivery job is that it's a pain in the ass job that is stressful with the idea that you'll make more money than other service industry jobs based on all shit you have to put up with.

 

[oneHeero]

You were fortunate enough to have such an opportunity. Many others are not. Acting like someone can just up and leave their job, or that they "chose" to work there, comes off as very naive.

Yes I was fortunate, but if times got hard for me I wouldnt hesitate taking a shit job at the local grocery store or fast food chain. Which are always largely available, its his choice if he doesnt want to take that job though. I dont blame him if he doesnt/wouldnt want too.

 

[Kinitari]

1. Depends on your definition of fucking up. Getting orders wrong or forgetting is not royally fucking up. Only time I won't tip (and this has never happened to me) is if a server is flat out rude and says some disparaging remarks or gets angry with me. That is the only circumstance I can see myself not tipping but I have never had that happen to me
3. Irrelevant as minimum wage is still dogshit.
4. It is the way things are, you tip in the service industry.

Fucked up is different for everyone, I've only ever withheld tip three times that I remember. Once when the waiter only came twice, to get my order, and then to bring it (I paid at the front with debit at the front) the place wasn't visibly busy so I had no idea where he was, if I had to do it again, I may have given him 2 dollars, as that was roughly 10% - but I don't really feel bad about it. The last time I did it was at Red Lobster, and I've told that story a few times in the thread. If someone is trying, but is having a bad day, you're going to get an average tip - if someone visibly doesn't care or is treating me like a second class customer, you get no tip.

Minimum wage is dogshit for a lot of people, but I don't feel as obligated to tip them as I do waiters - I still can't think of a reasonable reason as to why this is.

"It's the way things are" isn't really the most compelling reason to keep doing something. That argument has been used on me, and failed every other time it has - usually its used by super conservatives who think gays shouldn't get married or some shit like that, that's why I am so weirded out seeing the same argument on GAF.

 

[oneHeero]

Not everybody lives where you live, or has the same job market you have or has the option to look for other jobs. They're shitty jobs and few people working there want it as a long time job.

I don't understand your stance on delivery people. They do the same exact thing as a waiter, most likely take your order on the phone, sometimes even make it, like late a 1am on a friday night when they'd rather not be there. They then drive to your house for you, unlike a waiter who only has to walk to your table. Often times with 4 or 5 pizzas in the car of people all expecting them you to be rushing straight to your house.

Unbelievable. Its the exact reason why I stated I dont know the situation. Thats basically my thinking on the subject of tipping. It differs from location to location. So why 1 have opinion that not tipping a certain amount or always tipping no matter what is being cheap and cant be seen as its not the same everywhere you live.

 

[Big-E]

"It's the way things are" isn't really the most compelling reason to keep doing something. That argument has been used on me, and failed every other time it has - usually its used by super conservatives who think gays shouldn't get married or some shit like that, that's why I am so weirded out seeing the same argument on GAF.

To be clear this extends well beyond just the restaurant industry.

 

[Xeke]

Fucked up is different for everyone, I've only ever withheld tip three times that I remember. Once when the waiter only came twice, to get my order, and then to bring it (I paid at the front with debit at the front) the place wasn't visibly busy so I had no idea where he was, if I had to do it again, I may have given him 2 dollars, as that was roughly 10% - but I don't really feel bad about it. The last time I did it was at Red Lobster, and I've told that story a few times in the thread. If someone is trying, but is having a bad day, you're going to get an average tip - if someone visibly doesn't care or is treating me like a second class customer, you get no tip.

Minimum wage is dogshit for a lot of people, but I don't feel as obligated to tip them as I do waiters - I still can't think of a reasonable reason as to why this is.

"It's the way things are" isn't really the most compelling reason to keep doing something. That argument has been used on me, and failed every other time it has - usually its used by super conservatives who think gays shouldn't get married or some shit like that, that's why I am so weirded out seeing the same argument on GAF.

Because waiting tables is more difficult, stressful and taxing than most any minimum wage job.

Unbelievable. Its the exact reason why I stated I dont know the situation. Thats basically my thinking on the subject of tipping. It differs from location to location. So why 1 have opinion that not tipping a certain amount or always tipping no matter what is being cheap and cant be seen as its not the same everywhere you live.

Because of just that. You don't know my situation and you don't know your waiters situation. Maybe they're a slower than normal and you start taking money off your $5 tip, maybe their father died that week but can't afford to not work and have to work through it. Good job!

 

[Big-E]

Unbelievable. Its the exact reason why I stated I dont know the situation. Thats basically my thinking on the subject of tipping. It differs from location to location. So why 1 have opinion that not tipping a certain amount or always tipping no matter what is being cheap and cant be seen as its not the same everywhere you live.

Why do you keep saying they should get a better job if you don't know their situation? Are you the type of person who says that the homeless should just pick up their boot straps and get a job as well?

 

[KHarvey16]

Yes I was fortunate, but if times got hard for me I wouldnt hesitate taking a shit job at the local grocery store or fast food chain. Which are always largely available, its his choice if he doesnt want to take that job though. I dont blame him if he doesnt/wouldnt want too.

You're assuming those jobs are just there for the taking.

 

[Narag]

You're assuming those jobs are just there for the taking.

Or that the hours are there even if they were.

 

[oneHeero]

Not everybody lives where you live, or has the same job market you have or has the option to look for other jobs. They're shitty jobs and few people working there want it as a long time job.

I don't understand your stance on delivery people. They do the same exact thing as a waiter, most likely take your order on the phone, sometimes even make it, like late a 1am on a friday night when they'd rather not be there. They then drive to your house for you, unlike a waiter who only has to walk to your table. Often times with 4 or 5 pizzas in the car of people all expecting them you to be rushing straight to your house.



If that job doesn't pay the bills then it is useless. The idea behind a waiting/delivery job is that it's a pain in the ass job that is stressful with the idea that you'll make more money than other service industry jobs based on all shit you have to put up with.

/sigh

I honestly dont know if your just selecting parts of my post and replying to them instead of reading them all. I was asked how much would he be making if he sat around looking for a job that would comply with his schedule. I stated while he looked a job more suitable to his situation he could take one of the jobs that are basically always available and tend to always be lenient with people who are in school. He gets a little bit of money while he's out looking for a job more suitable for his schedule. I

I'm not saying he should just take a shit job with low pay that wont pay the bills just to have a job like you seem to imply I am saying.

Hmmmm, I wonder how you got the job.

Durrr....

 

[Kinitari]

Because waiting tables is more difficult, stressful and taxing than most any minimum wage job.

This is the most reasonable argument, and the only reason I can't argue it is because I don't know what jobs are minimum wage, but this isn't the reason I tip - I tip because I feel obligated, next time I am eating out (this is like once every 4 months) I'll try thinking about it like that, maybe I'll feel less confused.

And at least you aren't telling me I should tip regardless of how good or bad the waiter is.

 

[Xeke]

/sigh

I honestly dont know if your just selecting parts of my post and replying to them instead of reading them all. I was asked how much would he be making if he sat around looking for a job that would comply with his schedule. I stated while he looked a job more suitable to his situation he could take one of the jobs that are basically always available and tend to always be lenient with people who are in school. He gets a little bit of money while he's out looking for a job more suitable for his schedule. I

I'm not saying he should just take a shit job with low pay that wont pay the bills just to have a job like you seem to imply I am saying.



Durrr....

What are these jobs that are always there? If you need to work a waiting job to pay the bills taking one of those other jobs wont cut it. And again I don't know what you're talking about with all this jobs that are always available. If that were indeed the case I don't think our unemployment would be climbing quite like it is.

And at least you aren't telling me I should tip regardless of how good or bad the waiter is.

If you're a good customer and they treat you like straight shit they don't deserve a tip. But if they're just messing up a little bit while still being respectful of you, especially if you can see it's very busy, then you shouldn't hold it against them too much.

 

[oneHeero]

Why do you keep saying they should get a better job if you don't know their situation? Are you the type of person who says that the homeless should just pick up their boot straps and get a job as well?

No, of course not. I hand out money to homeless people pretty often :\ I always run the scenario in my head if I were homeless. How would I survive? Well I'd personally sit at a corner beggin for money like others, save save save as much I could. Go into a Walmart, buy a 24pk of water bottles and start selling them on the corner for a buck each. Believe it or not people do that now, not even homeless people. We have people who sell water and candy apples on the side all the time. That's what I'd do. But thats beyond our discussion.

You're assuming those jobs are just there for the taking.

The walgreen's my wife works at is always hiring. Never stops, always hiring. They also help with your schedule if your in school. They dont make seniors work morning, they give my wife Tue/Thur off for school. I also know(personal exp) that fast food restaurants are just as helpful. But I guess we are to good to work there on gaf.

Because of just that. You don't know my situation and you don't know your waiters situation. Maybe they're a slower than normal and you start taking money off your $5 tip, maybe their father died that week but can't afford to not work and have to work through it. Good job!

LOL I'm watching Parking Wars on A&E and some PPA was telling the guy who got a ticket, "how would you like it if your parents had cancer and needed to park in front of the hospital but couldnt cuz you parked there" The guy responds with "Now your being dramatic"

 

[Big-E]

Durrr....

I don't think you are understanding the argument. You said that a delivery person should just get another job. You then state to others that you don't know everyone's particular situation. If you don't know everyone's particular situation then how can you say they should just get another job. It is also just hilarious as you argue this and were given a handout by a friend.

 

[Xeke]

LOL I'm watching Parking Wars on A&E and some PPA was telling the guy who got a ticket, "how would you like it if your parents had cancer and needed to park in front of the hospital but couldnt cuz you parked there" The guy responds with "Now your being dramatic"

Because there aren't people who can't afford to take off when a loved one dies? Or for a host of other reasons.

 

[oneHeero]

I don't think you are understanding the argument. You said that a delivery person should just get another job. You then state to others that you don't know everyone's particular situation. If you don't know everyone's particular situation then how can you say they should just get another job. It is also just hilarious as you argue this and were given a handout by a friend.

A handout is him telling his manager to just give me a job for the meantime. Your assuming that's what happens. Assumptions are bad. The survey company at the mall has a high turnover rate and are always hiring. Its a sucky job. You stand in the mall asking people who they have 20mins to an hour to complete a survey and receive anywhere from 2bucks to 25bucks for their time. So you can probably see why it could be a high turnover job. Me being aware of this, and knowing my friend has worked there for so many years, I figured hey let me go get this job where my friend works while I look for something better.

Because there aren't people who can't afford to take off when a loved one dies? Or for a host of other reasons.

I understand that, but thats like worrying about getting into a car accident every time you get in a car to drive. You dont know what can happen when driving and you dont know if the delivery guys parent just died.

EDIT: I didnt pay attention to my last sentence so excuse me if its not making sense, I've been sitting here replying on gaf for a couple of hours, to everyone unlike others. So I'm burning out already :lol :lol

Aight this whole time I have been replying to people and the wait time is usually 2-3 mins between replies. Its been a bit longer so I'm done with this as I think others are too. Gonna smoke and play some games. This turned into a job thread anyways :\ :lol :lol

 

[DGodlessOnessss]

Why do people tip waitstaff, but not those at McDonalds. McDonald employees make just as little and work just as hard. If you say it is custom, then it is a dumb custom. It was once a custom to sacrafice a virgin for rain. Dumb customs shouldn't be kept.

 

[KHarvey16]

Why do people tip waitstaff, but not those at McDonalds. McDonald employees make just as little and work just as hard. If you say it is custom, then it is a dumb custom. It was once a custom to sacrafice a virgin for rain. Dumb customs shouldn't be kept.

People who work at McDonalds make a lot more than servers in most places. Waiters and waitresses have a significantly lower minimum wage.

 

[Atrus]

You stated that

You said the following: "Did you think that through? Those are the only two fucking options. "

Whereas I said "the demographics show that the people who earn minimum wage are those that want to, or those that have no other choice." I never stated those were the only options, just the two predominant ones of the demographic.

I already admitted that it's mostly arbitrary. But once one profession receives tips, expectations are created as to what the base pay for that profession will be and what the pay will be with tips, affecting who gets into the profession and what their expectations are.

If it's arbitrary then don't whine about why you are more deserving than other people and are entitled to something labeled a 'gratuity'.

Yeah, I never said that. Back four pages ago, you wrote that the minimum wage was sufficient, arguing it was proportional to educational levels, age, experience, etc. So I was arguing against your general stance on minimum wage. (by the way, I'm still waiting for you to explain how the fact that women make up a disproportionate percentage of minimum wage earners has to do with the sufficiency of current minimum wage levels.)

Sufficient for the particular skill sets required and for the particular lifestyles of the individuals who resort to it most. They were senior citizens, women in a non-transitional part-time work, and students. The majority boasting little to no education. These are people who want part-time work requiring little skill, or people with no marketable skills whatsoever. The pay matches the lifestyle choice (retirement) or skill set (little to none).

The notion that a single job should pay enough to support an individual is absurd. You are paid for the particular work and skillset involved. You don't cook the food, you don't manage the business. You're just the person that crossed a sufficient minimum skill threshold required to take orders and deliver meals. The minimum wage is to prevent people from offering so little, that there is no way anyone can make a living regardless of any combination of employment. It's not to ensure that everyone is guaranteed to have a life beyond work.

Maybe it indicates laziness; it can also indicate other things: lack of parental encouragement, cultural barriers, and--yes!--even a lack of natural ability. It might also indicate immediate, pressing concerns--such as kids, health problems, current bills, debts--that might make college or university unattractive. It's easy just to dismiss everyone as lazy.

Bu...bu... it's not my fault! It's my genes, it's my parents, it's the environment around me, it's my health, it's my kids. Not you're lack of motivation, ambition, or collection of poor choices.

Rationalizations are a dime a dozen. It's salve of the lazy and inept, who don't seem to want to accept that living in one of the eminant countries in the world for economic opportunity, they've somehow failed spectacularly.

Health issues are a coherent argument, but even then, Canada is a country which has words like 'Employment Equity' and 'Workplace Diversity'. Words that mean, even if I fuck up and get sidelined with spinal muscular atrophy like Stephen Hawking, the places I chose to work at will still find me a position so long as I can think and type with one hand. I have to accept I'll never earn more and will have to take pay cuts, but 25-30K a year is not so bad for barely any motor skills. Plus, we get universal health care.

Come on! This sounds like "power-of-positive-thinking" pap. There are many things outside of our control: where, when, and to whom we are born; our genes; the economic conditions of our country; our health, etc.

As for the example of the GM workers, they probably weren't planning too badly at the time they were hired. I think you're expecting omniscience from them. And it's hard to obtain "marketable skills," which change during time, when you're a high-school grad in your forties with a full-time job and a family.

Speculation bent on rationalizing why particular individuals can't escape their own mistakes. It's not hard to gain marketable skills, nor do you require omniscience. It requires having a Plan B, C, D in the event you're crippled or laid off and that you put some time to obtaining it. Even some of the absolute idiots from my high school days have degrees. They may have went through what they called the '10 year program' and D's for Degrees meme, but they certainly got something and are no longer spending most of their time at McDonalds.

Part-time and long-distance education is popular and widely available in Canada. One of my co-workers, as I mentioned in another thread, is someone who came to Canada and spent her first year entirely indoors. She couldn't drive despite needing to drive, no previous job experience anywhere at the age of 30, and despite claiming a Masters Degree from what I think must have been a degree mill, she fails spectacularly at everything. But thanks to coming to a country where they train you for the position once hired, and hard work from herself and her co-workers. She is now capable of doing the job in a minimal capacity. What got her the position? A piece of stupid paper that's an insult to my stupid piece of paper.

While she's a nice enough person, an infant monkey would be more intelligent. Yet she's getting about 53K per annum, which she tells me she doesn't even check because she's more than happy having a job. People like her just demonstrate that the minimum threshold for Canada is extremely fucking low, almost designed for an idiocratic world.

You end up in life in relation to the effort you put into it. I can expect such adverse situations in the Sudan, in Eastern Europe and wherever the general economic level is shit, but not in a country where they have a shortfall of workers, skilled or no, and still can't make up the gap through immigration.

Really, we're both making value choices here. You're describing a system you want, made of people either at the top or the bottom--winners and losers. But it seems like a self-defeating system when ultimately most people end up near the bottom. And I really don't see why those at the absolute bottom, the poorest and most vulnerable in society, need to be crushed.
(PS I will be entering a fairly closed, credentialist profession: law--which should be fairly immune from this crushing global competition you're referring to.)

It's the system that is. Not everyone is going to make it, so you had best compete or suffer. Most people do not end up at the bottom in Canada: http://www.muchmormagazine.com/2008/07/average-canadian-family-income-now-70400/.

Minimum wage is an extreme minority and until lately it's trended downward. However, the crushing I described is a side-effect of limited resources. There are only certain number of positions tied to various levels generated by the overall economic well-being of the country. If you do not compete for those on an international level, than the people internationally, with an incentive to do so, will grab those jobs because they're more experienced and better trained.

Even the notion that professions like Medicine, Law, and Accounting are immune to it is false. Just in the same way I'm using my designations to obtain international ones outside Canada, there are similar standards to allow people from other countries 'mutual recognition' or enough leeway to minimize the effort required to obtain accredation here.

I find the notion that people need gratuities for default work, absurd. You get paid relative to the skill level of that job and in Canada, toward a required minimum. Claiming that the 'poor' people are victims of outside forces is insulting to the people who start with even less, and worked to more without any magical legs ups or divine interventions.

If ominous threats about 'life lessons' are all that can be afforded, then maybe that's what the problem is. Too much fatalistic bullshit from people who like to complain than act.

 

[Narag]

Why do people tip waitstaff, but not those at McDonalds. McDonald employees make just as little and work just as hard. If you say it is custom, then it is a dumb custom. It was once a custom to sacrafice a virgin for rain. Dumb customs shouldn't be kept.

In the USA, McDonald's employees would make at least the set minimum wage. Servers would make far less with the understanding tips would supplement their rate of pay.

 

[siddx]

Why do people tip waitstaff, but not those at McDonalds. McDonald employees make just as little and work just as hard. If you say it is custom, then it is a dumb custom. It was once a custom to sacrafice a virgin for rain. Dumb customs shouldn't be kept.

I dont look down at people who work at mcdonalds, if you gotta work you gotta work. But comparing the workload of someone who works on a fast joint and a restaurant is absurd. Its not even remotely close.

 

[DGodlessOnessss]

In the USA, McDonald's employees would make at least the set minimum wage. Servers would make far less with the understanding tips would supplement their rate of pay.

In serveral states waitstaff make just as much McDonald employees, and in some places even more. Here they generally make around $10 an hour, while McDonald employees make around $8.

 

[DGodlessOnessss]

I dont look down at people who work at mcdonalds, if you gotta work you gotta work. But comparing the workload of someone who works on a fast joint and a restaurant is absurd. Its not even remotely close.

I know people who work at both and it is close enough.

 

[KHarvey16]

In serveral states waitstaff make just as much McDonald employees, and in some places even more. Here they generally make around $10 an hour, while McDonald employees make around $8.

In most of the country that isn't true. And like someone else said, the degree of difficulty is vastly different.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

In serveral states waitstaff make just as much McDonald employees, and in some places even more. Here they generally make around $10 an hour, while McDonald employees make around $8.

It'd be nice if you told us what state this is.

 

[oneHeero]

In most of the country that isn't true. And like someone else said, the degree of difficulty is vastly different.

Heh, wouldnt that be subjective?

It'd be nice if you told us what state this is.

I'm not sure about Mcdonalds, but the Bill Miller's here(only in a few states) can range from $7.50 to $10bucks throughout our city. This is in Texas, I would expect the Bill Miller's in places like Austin, Dallas, and Houston are the same or higher since cost of living is higher than San Antonio.

 

[Kinitari]

I know people who work at both and it is close enough.

While I agree that good McDonalds employees do work pretty hard and do have to deal with a crap load of shitty customers, the work environment is noticeably different. Still - I don't really know where the line is drawn, as it seems to be all over the place for all sorts of professions, which ones expect tips and which ones do not.

As long as people don't call me a cheap fuck for not tipping people when they do a shitty job (in Canada where they don't make 3 dollars an hour) I am happy.

 

[siddx]

In serveral states waitstaff make just as much McDonald employees, and in some places even more. Here they generally make around $10 an hour, while McDonald employees make around $8.

Tips are taken out of waitstaff paychecks. So they may get 10 an hour, but the paycheck is going to be for 40 bucks or so, sometimes even just a couple of cents ( I had a friend who held onto a paycheck for 1 cent). Although that depends on the policy of the restaurant. I worked at one place that didn't take tips out of the paycheck because of how they categorized us, so I made bank.

 

[DGodlessOnessss]

It'd be nice if you told us what state this is.

Nevada, California, Washington, Oregon, and Hawaii to name a few.