Lightning Returns Review Thread

A_Gorilla said:
Props for naming two games most seem to dislike (I never played them so I don't have an opinion).
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9 and 12 are also the ones I'd pick as best of Final Fantasy over the last 15 years. Not a popular opinion here, but 9 and 12 are certainly the two I've enjoyed the most (though 7 and 10 weren't bad, just not nearly as good). It probably depends on whether your enjoyment of Final Fantasy games stems more from story or from the gameplay mechanics - 12 was pretty weak, story wise, but the gameplay itself was near-perfect. It felt more open than the 'corridor land' of 10 or 13, that's for sure.

I wasn't holding out much hope for Lightning Returns, and the review scores seem to have come to pretty much the same conclusion. Maybe I'll get it when it hits the bargain bin...
 
teh_pwn said:
Final Fantasy hasn't been good since 12 or 10. Great since 9/7/6. Because the talent bailed and now we have bad music, bad writing, emo teen angst, and underage teens with short shorts.

Seriously not interested. Lost Odysssey was good. Unsung Story looks good; hope it makes it.

Though you may have a point with the reviews of other 13 games.
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What do you call FFX? I'm of the view that FFXIII is FFX with prettier graphics and a less sappy story.

As for this, I would be tempted to buy it for the combat alone (I enjoyed FFXIII's even if it was auto-attack to win) if not for the time limit. Kill time limits in RPGs, kill them with fire!
 
The Silver said:
I've never said this before and I usually hate when others say it but fuck Toriyama is a cancer when he has too much control
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He should probably put down the whistles, chains, girly art with sexual tones, pulling fans in for a tease, and robbing older players of the experience they had when they were younger and try and make a FF that lives up to the name.

I've never really bashed Square before either.
 
So average. A shame but at the same time, SE better see this as a "damn, we dun and goofed" moment. Hell, at least SE got Bravely Default right cause that game is fantastic. Hope lies on XV at this point though XIV keeps the FF name alive with our beloved classics.
 
Shinta said:
The irony of this post is staggering, considering the reactions we're seeing in a LR review thread and the game gets released tomorrow.
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If you think that FF13 redux v2 isn't going to be a big disappointment and another lameduck FF13 entry, then I've got a bridge on the moon to sell you.

To Square: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me thrice and I deserve to eat your shitsandwich.
 
IGN reviews a Final Fantasy game and doesn't speak one word about its music. That kinda says a lot about how little I'll care about their score.
 
Gez said:
XIII-2 was like $15 bucks (new) 2 months after release.
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I was so tempted to buy it when it hit that price, but I know I wouldn't have enjoyed it and would have forcefully tried to complete it in the hopes that it might get better.

Wonder how disappointed square is in the review scores.
 
Shmuely Bully said:
What do you call FFX? I'm of the view that FFXIII is FFX with prettier graphics and a less sappy story.

As for this, I would be tempted to buy it for the combat alone (I enjoyed FFXIII's even if it was auto-attack to win) if not for the time limit. Kill time limits in RPGs, kill them with fire!
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Nope, nope, and nope. FFX on the surface is incredibly simple, the main character is transported to a world he's not familiar with, he's a tourist trying to get home. The world he now inhabits has some messed up stuff going on, people clamor for peaceful times where living is a priority, instead of battling an undeafatable monster.

So the main character tags along with other characters and they all discover things about the world around them. Spira is a really neat place artistically. The characters in FFX have good backstory, and the interactions the main group has with each other seem genuine and heartfelt.

Each Final Fantasy since FFVII caters to some group of people. It isn't as simple as "this one is for all the teenage girls, this one is for the older fans", FFX and FF XIII are incredibly different. The narrative that "FFXIII is just like FFX" is weird and forced. FFX could be considered divisive, sure, but it isn't nearly as polarizing as FFXIII.
 
MormaPope said:
Each Final Fantasy since FFVII caters to some group of people. It isn't as simple as "this one is for all the teenage girls, this one is for the older fans", FFX and FF XIII are incredibly different. The narrative that "FFXIII is just like FFX" is weird and forced. FFX could be considered decisive, sure, but it isn't nearly as polarizing as FFXIII.
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Divisive, not decisive :p
 
ZombiePlatypus said:
Jesus. Basically take positive reviews with a massive grain of salt.
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Positive reviews of AAA games.

Basically, the more "important" a game is to a company and its bottom line, the less trustworthy the reviews are likely to be. Especially if that company is publicly held.

I think reviews of indie games, "B-tier" games, etc. are likely to be accurate because there isn't a giant PR machine trying to influence the reviews' outcomes. And there also isn't a giant wave of fan hype you have to counter, either.
 
MormaPope said:
Nope, nope, and nope. FFX on the surface is incredibly simple, the main character is transported to a world he's not familiar with, he's a tourist trying to get home. The world he now inhabits has some messed up stuff going on, people clamor for peaceful times where living is a priority, instead of battling an undeafatable monster.

So the main character tags along with other characters and they all discover things about the world around them. Spira is a really neat place artistically. The characters in FFX have good backstory, and the interactions the main group has with each other seem genuine and heartfelt.

Each Final Fantasy since FFVII caters to some group of people. It isn't as simple as "this one is for all the teenage girls, this one is for the older fans", FFX and FF XIII are incredibly different. The narrative that "FFXIII is just like FFX" is weird and forced. FFX could be considered decisive, sure, but it isn't nearly as polarizing as FFXIII.
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They're similarly linear and take ages to open up, both feature mostly unlikeable or undeveloped characters, both have a similar method of skill progression (with FFX's being even more of a cluster IMO), both have simple stories that are poorly told through gameplay. EDIT: Not to mention the user-controllable summons..

Your entire second paragraph could apply to FFXIII equally as well. I hate to be the one to slay the sacred cow, but they really aren't nearly as different as people like to pretend.

To make this relevant to the topic at hand, over or under 2 months till this is $20?
 
NoLoveForFailWheelDrive said:
If you think that FF13 redux v2 isn't going to be a big disappointment and another lameduck FF13 entry, then I've got a bridge on the moon to sell you.

To Square: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me thrice and I deserve to eat your shitsandwich.
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The obvious point I was making is that almost everyone in this thread is parroting the opinions of a game they haven't played, so your whole post is massively hypocritical.

That's really the only relevant point.
 
Shinta said:
The obvious point I was making is that almost everyone in this thread is parroting the opinions of a game they haven't played, so your whole post is massively hypocritical.

That's really the only relevant point.
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Most threads about XIII (make that 99% of them) involve people dumping on the series.

koutoru said:
I'll get this game when I find a save edit to either stop or max out that annoying countdown clock.
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From what I've seen the counter isn't a problem on normal.
 
MogCakes said:
From what I've seen the counter isn't a problem on normal.
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That can mean a lot of things though depending on who you ask, how long in-game are we talking?

EDIT: This from the Final Fantasy wikia bugs me: "Because the play time can be extended, it allows for a player-specific game experience, and different choices yield different events. It will not be possible to see every cutscene in one playthrough".

Meh.
 
Reveirg said:
IGN reviews a Final Fantasy game and doesn't speak one word about its music. That kinda says a lot about how little I'll care about their score.
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The new soundtrack is great. I don't know if it tops the others in the series but it's definitely "very very good".
 
Shmuely Bully said:
They're similarly linear and take ages to open up, both feature mostly unlikeable or undeveloped characters, both have a similar method of skill progression (with FFX's being even more of a cluster IMO), both have simple stories that are poorly told through gameplay. EDIT: Not to mention the user-controllable summons..

Your entire second paragraph could apply to FFXIII equally as well. I hate to be the one to slay the sacred cow, but they really aren't nearly as different as people like to pretend.

To make this relevant to the topic at hand, over or under 2 months till this is $20?
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I definitely agree that X is proto-XIII.

And this discussion started by teh_pawn saying FF was now "bad writing, emo teen angst, and underage teens with short shorts" and implied X was before all that. Which I think is funny because that's almost exactly how X was described by many oldschool fans back in the day. It was the animu/jpop end of the world back then...

He also said FF now has bad music. HA!
 
Shinta said:
The obvious point I was making is that almost everyone in this thread is parroting the opinions of a game they haven't played, so your whole post is massively hypocritical.

That's really the only relevant point.
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Hah, if that's your great big important point, then it's kind of obvious that you know what I'm saying is true. ;) It's ok, we'll all laugh and shake our heads over the next 10 years. Let's just hope Square gets their mojo back so I don't have to keep them grouped in the same nasty category as Neo-Bioware, who are another collective group of disappointing fucks.
 
MogCakes said:
Divisive, not decisive :p
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Thank you for pointing that out.

Shmuely Bully said:
They're similarly linear and take ages to open up, both feature mostly unlikeable or undeveloped characters, both have a similar method of skill progression (with FFX's being even more of a cluster IMO), both have simple stories that are poorly told through gameplay.

Your entire second paragraph could apply to FFXIII equally as well. I hate to be the one to slay the sacred cow, but they really aren't nearly as different as people like to pretend.

To make this relevant to the topic at hand, over or under 2 months till this is $20?
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You aren't really debating my points. How is FF XIII's story simple on a surface level? Since when has FFX's cast been criticized as being underdeveloped en masse by fans and critics? Story through gameplay? That has never been Final Fantasy's thing. My second paragraph applies to FFXIII? No it doesn't. The first 15 hours of FF XIII jumps between party members, usually doing completely different things in relation to each other. The main cast of FFX are together the majority of the time. The sphere grid is similar to the skill system from FF XIII, I'll give you that much.

You aren't "slaying" a crow of any nature. I'm almost convinced you haven't played FFX based on the things you said. The "they're both linear" argument also doesn't hold up. The pacing in FFX takes off once you reach Kilika Island/Luca, which is about 3 hours into the game. FF XIII's pacing is fucked, it feels like long stretches of nothing happens. You go through wasteland after wasteland after wasteland, the world in FF XIII feels empty, which in turn messes with how things are paced.

Linear isn't a smear word, some if not the majority of the best games in this medium are linear. World maps and wandering in fields isn't something that's needed in a Final Fantasy game to be considered great. The story, characters, and pacing felt incredibly off for most people that played FF XIII. The same cannot be said about FFX, critics adored it, a lot of fans loved and still love FFX. This isn't the case of "well they're both similar but one is newer and didn't change much", FF XIII was the case of bloated development and really questionable writing.
 
Shmuely Bully said:
They're similarly linear and take ages to open up, both feature mostly unlikeable or undeveloped characters, both have a similar method of skill progression (with FFX's being even more of a cluster IMO), both have simple stories that are poorly told through gameplay. EDIT: Not to mention the user-controllable summons..

Your entire second paragraph could apply to FFXIII equally as well. I hate to be the one to slay the sacred cow, but they really aren't nearly as different as people like to pretend.

To make this relevant to the topic at hand, over or under 2 months till this is $20?
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So you haven't played FFX then? Got it.
 
Shmuely Bully said:
That can mean a lot of things though depending on who you ask, how long in-game are we talking?

EDIT: This from the Final Fantasy wikia bugs me: "Because the play time can be extended, it allows for a player-specific game experience, and different choices yield different events. It will not be possible to see every cutscene in one playthrough".

Meh.
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Yep, it's exactly as the wikia says or so I've heard. So long as you battle enemies on a fairly regular basis you'll have time to spare.

BocoDragon said:
I definitely agree that X is proto-XIII.

And this discussion started by teh_pawn saying FF was now "bad writing, emo teen angst, and underage teens with short shorts" and implied X was before all that. Which I think is funny because that's almost exactly how X was described by many oldschool fans back in the day. It was the animu/jpop end of the world back then...

He also said FF now has bad music. HA!
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Make that three of us that agree. I see X and XIII as very similar in design. Every argument I've seen that attempts to hype X as being superior involves subjective attributes such as liking the plot more, 'more memorable characters', etc.

EDIT: not to say I dislike X (I like every entry in the series save for ATB), but it's not hard to see the similarities between it and XIII.
 
NoLoveForFailWheelDrive said:
Hah, if that's your great big important point, then it's kind of obvious that you know what I'm saying is true. ;) .
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I'm just saying, you were attacking a guy for talking about IX and XII even though he didn't play them. And yet, literally 99% of the people in this thread are attacking LR and haven't played it. That's really my only point. So ... it's not even about being right or wrong. I was just telling you that you were doing the exact same thing you were criticizing someone else for doing.

As far as whether or not I think you're right about LR being disappointing, that's up to each person isn't it? I already imported it and played about 15 hours of it, and imported the OST a while ago. I couldn't finish it all due to language barrier and school/work taking priority. I've got the CE coming in the mail this week and I'm definitely looking forward to it.

The only thing I expect to be disappointing is that it won't have the same visual polish of FFXIII, which I think is one of the best looking games ever made. But neither did XIII-2. These games were made in 18 months. And they're working from an old engine that's not ideal for open world games and sacrificing some visual quality for that open world (The Wildlands is gigantic). I'm expecting that I'll like it quite a bit. If you think you're going to not like it, don't play it. No one will force you too. But don't act like you have any idea what the game is like then, because that's pretty hypocritical given your last post.

It wasn't anything personal, I was just pointing out that if everyone is that quick to defend FFIX from someone who hasn't played it, maybe they could extend some of that courtesy to LR, which nearly everyone in here hasn't played.

NoLoveForFailWheelDrive said:
Let's just hope Square gets their mojo back so I don't have to keep them grouped in the same nasty category as Neo-Bioware, who are another collective group of disappointing fucks.
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I think the PS3 screwed a lot of companies, and Crystal Tools ended up being a failure. HD development requires bigger teams than ever, and managing efficiently presented new challenges that made development challenging. SQEX still makes stuff I like, and I think they'll make a whole lot more of it in the future, considering their new engine looks great, they've acquired Eidos, and the PS4 is exceptionally easy to work with. XV looks pretty awesome.
 
MormaPope said:
Thank you for pointing that out.



You aren't really debating my points. How is FF XIII's story simple on a surface level? Since when has FFX's cast been criticized as being underdeveloped en masse by fans and critics? Story through gameplay? That has never been Final Fantasy's thing. My second paragraph applies to FFXIII? No it doesn't. The first 15 hours of FF XIII jumps between party members, usually doing completely different things in relation to each other. The main cast of FFX are together the majority of the time. The sphere grid is similar to the skill system from FF XIII, I'll give you that much.

You aren't "slaying" a crow of any nature. I'm almost convinced you haven't played FFX based on the things you said. The "they're both linear" argument also doesn't hold up. The pacing in FFX takes off once you reach Kilika Island/Luca, which is about 3 hours into the game. FF XIII's pacing is fucked, it feels like long stretches of nothing happens. You go through wasteland after wasteland after wasteland, the world in FF XIII feels empty, which in turn messes with how things are paced.

Linear isn't a smear word, some if not the majority of the best games in this medium are linear. World maps and wandering in fields isn't something that's needed in a Final Fantasy game to be considered great. The story, characters, and pacing felt incredibly off for most people that played FF XIII. The same cannot be said about FFX, critics adored it, a lot of fans loved and still love FFX. This isn't the case of "well they're both similar but one is newer and didn't change much", FF XIII was the case of bloated development and really questionable writing.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree since I doubt I would convince you anyway and don't really care to derail this thread thinking up new ways to explain things that seem obvious to me. I did not care for any of the characters in FFX much, I found the whole thing very forced, thematically it was strikes me as almost identical to FFXIII and yes, it was incredibly linear and NOT in a good way like Grandia or Arc the Lad 3.

For some reason despite that I completed it after several years. It had good cutscenes (mostly), I'll give it that, but that is about the only credit I'll give it aside from a good OST and a functional though unremarkable combat system.

Shinta said:
They share many core story themes too. They're probably the two most religious FF games. They both have very developed mythologies and backstories for their worlds. They both have fatalistic characters that are forced to go on a quest that will ultimately lead to their death, whether they succeed or fail. Yuna is pretty much given a Focus and acts much like a l'cie. They both have two worlds with a handful of characters intermingling between them and sharing culture. They both have tragic endings, and they both have sequels that shift the story a lot. Both have a large open grassy area late in the game that opens up more exploration and side content. Both have similar styles of leveling up. And Hamauzu does music on both of course.

I think it's clear that XIII was supposed to top X in every way. But Crystal Tools, HD development, and the PS3 forced them to make changes to get the project completed.
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Well said.
 
teh_pwn said:
Final Fantasy hasn't been good since 12 or 10. Great since 9/7/6. Because the talent bailed and now we have bad music, bad writing, emo teen angst, and underage teens with short shorts.
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teh_pwn said:
It's been a few years since 13, and I wasn't taking it very seriously. I think some of the voice acting may have improved since 10, and I remember "Mom's are tough".
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See, in reality, the earlier FFs were just as "emo" and angsty as modern ones, and had just as many teenagers whining about love and killing themselves. People just forget this, sometimes deliberately, because they have fond memories.
 
Personally, the biggest difference between FFX and FFXIII to me is that I can actually control my party early into the game, switch members in and out and such. It's a small thing but makes a big difference to me. I hope the expert sphere grid for the international/remaster release improves party setup/possibilities even moreso. But yes, FFX and FFXIII certainly share similar structural aspects.

I also greatly prefer the battle system. Turn based allows for a more methodical strategy and planning if I need it, but is on the other hand relatively quick if I'm facing an easy random encounter. Honestly I've never been a big fan of most ATB systems - only FFX-2's version I like, and that's largely due to the Job System on top of it.
 
Shmuely Bully said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree since I doubt I would convince you anyway and don't really care to derail this thread thinking up new ways to explain things that seem obvious to me. I did not care for any of the characters in FFX much, I found the whole thing very forced, thematically it was strikes me as almost identical to FFXIII and yes, it was incredibly linear and NOT in a good way like Grandia or Arc the Lad 3.

For some reason despite that I completed it after several years. It had good cutscenes (mostly), I'll give it that, but that is about the only credit I'll give it aside from a good OST and a functional though unremarkable combat system.
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Please put those side by side because this is just wrong.
 
I noticed how FFX is Japan's favorite FF so it's no surprise and makes sense why they made XIII so linear. Of course there was a backlash in the west!

I do prefer FFX's turn based as well because the battles in XIII, although pretty cool at first, can get really tedious later on especially when it takes like 10-15 minutes just to beat regular bad guys. One of my pet peeves are JRPGs with long drawn out battle systems where even regular enemies take too long to beat. It killed Skies of Arcadia and Valkyrie Profile 2 for me.

Tedious battle systems plus a long 40+ hour game can get tiring. Which is why it prefer FFX's turn based because it was fast and straight to the point.
 
Seda said:
Personally, the biggest difference between FFX and FFXIII to me is that I can actually control my party early into the game, switch members in and out and such. It's a small thing but makes a big difference to me. I hope the expert sphere grid for the international/remaster release improves party setup/possibilities even moreso. But yes, FFX and FFXIII certainly share similar structural aspects.

I also greatly prefer the battle system. Turn based allows for a more methodical strategy and planning if I need it, but is on the other hand relatively quick if I'm facing an easy random encounter. Honestly I've never been a big fan of most ATB systems - only FFX-2's version I like, and that's largely due to the Job System on top of it.
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TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
I noticed how FFX is Japan's favorite FF so it's no surprise and makes sense why they made XIII so linear. Of course there was a backlash in the west!

I do prefer FFX's turn based as well because the battles in XIII, although pretty cool at first, can get really tedious later on especially when it takes like 10-15 minutes just to beat regular bad guys. One of my pet peeves are JRPGs with long drawn out battle systems where even regular enemies take too long to beat. It killed Skies of Arcadia and Valkyrie Profile 2 for me.

Tedious battle systems plus a long 40+ hour game can get tiring. Which is why it prefer FFX's turn based because it was fast and straight to the point.
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I agree with the sentiment in both of these posts. One of the reasons why FFX is fun to replay is how quickly battles start and end. I also prefer turned based combat over ATB combat, planning ahead and executing a battle perfectly is a lot more satisfying then having to find the best method through replaying the game or pure trial and error.
 
koutoru said:
I'll get this game when I find a save edit to either stop or max out that annoying countdown clock.
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I think that might actually make the game outright unbeatable. Plus I believe Kagari was more or less done halfway through the countdown and had to waste the last several days to reach the end.
 
Those scores seem about right for western media. I'm looking forward to picking up my copy tomorrow. I've enjoyed the XIII series but am ready for it to be over. I really think XIII should have stood on its own, the ending was emotionally satisfying and didn't leave any dangling threads or important unanswered questions. I'd rather they have devoted the resources used for the sequels into getting VX out in 2012/13.
 
Nowhere Man said:
Those scores seem about right for western media. I'm looking forward to picking up my copy tomorrow. I've enjoyed the XIII series but am ready for it to be over. I really think XIII should have stood on its own, the ending was emotionally satisfying and didn't leave any dangling threads or important unanswered questions. I'd rather they have devoted the resources used for the sequels into getting VX out in 2012/13.
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I can see the prudent need to re-use assets given the fact that their development was in shambles, and they already did it in the best of times (X-2).

....but why did they need to be direct story sequels?

For the built in audience and sales....? Well that didn't seem to pay off!
 
Seda said:
Personally, the biggest difference between FFX and FFXIII to me is that I can actually control my party early into the game, switch members in and out and such. It's a small thing but makes a big difference to me. I hope the expert sphere grid for the international/remaster release improves party setup/possibilities even moreso. But yes, FFX and FFXIII certainly share similar structural aspects.

I also greatly prefer the battle system. Turn based allows for a more methodical strategy and planning if I need it, but is on the other hand relatively quick if I'm facing an easy random encounter. Honestly I've never been a big fan of most ATB systems - only FFX-2's version I like, and that's largely due to the Job System on top of it.
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For me, the abomination of a forced blitzball segment will forever put X behind XIII in my books. I literally put the game down for 6 months because I was so turned off by it.

On-topic: Seems like the reviews are middling, which ain't so bad. Definitely really looking forward to starting this good game up tomorrow!
 
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