Are you American? The irony would fill up my heart with joy, so I really hope you are.
Mass murderer Breivik threatened hunger strike over Rayman Revolution
- Thread starter Blablurn
- Start date
Are you American? The irony would fill up my heart with joy, so I really hope you are.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Dear God, read just a little on the page you posted on.
Isn't that your personal opinion?
May I ask why shouldn't convicted murderers get TVs and video games?
I totally agree, he's a off his rocker. The media really should stop covering his outrageous requests and commentary. That's separate from how he should be treated (although of course there's plenty of room for debate on whether he really needs videogames to satisfy a humble and humane existence).
My main point though is that these decisions should always be made with rehabilitation at the forefront of our minds, and dismissing the desire for revenge with another part of our minds. It is important we are better than those we put away, and not just in some self-righteous bit of obvious truth, but in the reality of our actions.
I know I'm being a bit idealistic here. And I also know from experience how difficult it is to change one's entire life stance from one where punishment for the most extreme crimes can sometimes feel never enough (especially when coupled with the amount of times serious criminals abuse the justice system to get off or receive minimal sentences), but I think we as a society benefit from being better than all that. And I believe not just because of my own experience, but because nearly every study on the subject suggests the same thing. The better your prison system is set up for rehabilitation (even of the worst murderers and pedophiles), the better off everyone involved will be - including the innocent prison guards, their victims and society at large. The only thing gained by the alternative is "satisfactory" revenge.
And I appreciate your support for this too, because it's important voices such as ours are heard on such critical subjects. It's a difficult fight to try to argue in some minor way that someone who rapes a child for example should be allowed some measure of dignity and humane treatment (and it wouldn't even do me good to discuss how sick it makes me to my stomach to hear about such crimes). These are people who are nearly indefensible. But when I look past my irrational emotional response, and try to see what is logically best for society at large and my own movement forward as a person, the answer becomes clear. And it only took me like 27 years of my life to figure out. It took my mother over 50 years of hers. It is something special to me as well that we came to the conclusion at roughly the same time. Forgiveness is the most powerful weapon anyone can wield, imo.
BishopLamont
Banned
Spoiled kid, he complains because he can get away with it.
Is not every opinion a personal opinion?
Broder Salsa
Banned
I'm sure he would like a ps3 and what not (he has a history of... ridiculous demands), but him staying relevant by constantly bringing news about him is probably just as big a goal for him.
BishopLamont
Banned
Attention is half the goal of a spoiled kid =p
This far west culture, jesus. Why can't so many of you reason beyond gut feelings?
USA has one the most criticized and inefficient jailing system of any developed country, and yet so many of you are still entirely missing the point of doing things differently.
That is one disappointing topic.
USA has one the most criticized and inefficient jailing system of any developed country, and yet so many of you are still entirely missing the point of doing things differently.
That is one disappointing topic.
BishopLamont
Banned
I think its more the fact that people empathise with the victims/victim's families leading them to such vengeful thinking, its easy for everyone to be self-righteous and think they won't be vengeful, but until you've had a loved one murdered, its hard to say exactly how you yourself would react.
Well I am American, so don't give up hope on all of us!
BishopLamont
Banned
OT but...what happened to your mod status?
Would you rather empathize with the victims or the killer?
BishopLamont
Banned
Nothing wrong with empathising for the victim, but there's a limit..when it leads you to wanting to kill someone, no matter who or how they are, do you think that is going to lead to a good outcome for us and for humanity's progress as a whole?
He only got a 21 year sentence for killing 77 people? Wtf?
Eek, dude! You should have gotten a 21 year sentence for buying that R-Zone lol.
Eek, dude! You should have gotten a 21 year sentence for buying that R-Zone lol.
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
Well then let me bring joy to your heart then and confirm my nationality.
Yes, I am American.
The one thing I don't get though is where the "irony" comes in. Yes, our criminal justice system is FAR from perfect, but AT LEAST a person wouldn't get 21 years here for killing 77 people. I'll give it that.
I'm not sure why you are asking rhetorical questions. Let me reiterate:
That is, indeed, your personal opinion and that's how it applies to you. I was curious why you thought it was lenient and why you would not want Anders Breivik to get out of the jail in 21 or more years (which is, once again, highly unlikely, and would happen only if he's no longer a threat to society).
For me, these facts are separate. I don't see how those families suffering would prohibit him from complaining about not having a PS3 or even how that unfortunate fact would keep the authorities from satisfying his request, if they decide to do so.
Broder Salsa
Banned
The whole "Norways criminal justice system is messed up" part, when it actually has proven to work while the US has a ... Well, do we really have to even talk about how your criminal justice system is going?
If you read the thread you will learn the reason behind that.
IMO the killer does not deserve empathy...especially when t comes to not having up to date videogame syatems...that is crazy to even think about. Also never said anything about killing someone.
Not sure what this even means...but his 'suffering' about not having a PS3 is not even on the same level as the real suffering the victims families feel on a daily basis.
One cannot quantify suffering, therefore it's irrelevant.
Oh gtfo.
That's a point many death sentence preachers will bring at some point. In my opinion this is irrelevant because a personal experience shouldn't be considered when writing a law.
Law is meant to be equal and just, it is to be objective ad non discriminative. We are definitely far from having perfect laws in this regard, but it still make sense to put aside any person with strong subjective feelings when making them.
Empathy is a fabulous tool, and so is gut feeling, but acting on it without further though is simply a weakness. A potentially very dangerous one.
Don't feel included in that, your posts are a little blessing in this topic. I'm pretty sure people i'm referring to will get the message.
Ah, see now that it was the max sentence and it can be extended at a later date. Ok that's better.
BishopLamont
Banned
I didn't say you specifically wanting to kill someone, but people being vengeful in general, which many has shown in this very thread. I don't think he deserves empathy either, not for what he's done, but as humans we need to show empathy for everyone, in all walks of life, and if the justice system says he "only" gets 21 years in jail, then thats the end of it, otherwise the system would just fall apart.
I put cheating up very close to murder on the list, and I'd like it if the justice system treated more harshly, but when I put my emotional shit aside, I can see murder is much worse. The law exists to bring justice the best it can, based on whats best for society not for the individual.
Deified Data
Banned
He has a PS2. In prison. After murdering people. Shit like that makes my blood boil. I've got a big ol' liberal bleeding heart but stories like this make my butthole clench up tighter than a Republican woman's grip on her purse in an ethnic neighborhood.
There's a fine middle ground between the USA's "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" philosophy and the apparent idiocy of the Norwegian prison system. Scratch that, no, the line isn't fine at all - it's a bloody mile across.
I appreciate that some of you are better at maintaining your enlightened liberal facade in light of such things than I am, and I applaud you for it. It's pure naivete and would crumble in a second under the weight of something like this happening to one of your friends or family, but I do believe it's genuine.
No, I don't believe Breivik should be slain. No, I'm not upset at Norway's system of doling out 21 years and then deciding whether or not to give him another 21 at the end (they will, because he won't change). Everyone is just so quick to show concern that he get full access to his favorite hobbies in prison, it makes my brain hurt. If it's barbaric to wish that a modern prison system incorporated some element of punishment, especially in light of an astronomically small chance at rehabilitation, then you can call me Atilla the Hun.
There's a fine middle ground between the USA's "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" philosophy and the apparent idiocy of the Norwegian prison system. Scratch that, no, the line isn't fine at all - it's a bloody mile across.
I appreciate that some of you are better at maintaining your enlightened liberal facade in light of such things than I am, and I applaud you for it. It's pure naivete and would crumble in a second under the weight of something like this happening to one of your friends or family, but I do believe it's genuine.
No, I don't believe Breivik should be slain. No, I'm not upset at Norway's system of doling out 21 years and then deciding whether or not to give him another 21 at the end (they will, because he won't change). Everyone is just so quick to show concern that he get full access to his favorite hobbies in prison, it makes my brain hurt. If it's barbaric to wish that a modern prison system incorporated some element of punishment, especially in light of an astronomically small chance at rehabilitation, then you can call me Atilla the Hun.
So apparently you don't agree that the prisoners should be treated with civility and, if possible, have access to basic comforts and entertainment, no matter what their crime is. By the way, this in itself does not have to do with forgiveness, rehabilitation, etc. — this is just basic humanity we, as civilised people, are bound to display.
ElfArmy177
Member
Am I taking crazy pills?? When you kill 21 people you are no longer a human being, you are a pile of shit.
ElfArmy177
Member
He's just playing devils advocate for the sake of argument. That, or he has no soul... Lol
And how would "that" make it better than another?
You don't need empathy, just rational thinking.
There is no benefit to keep him locked if he is rehabilitated. You can spin it how you want. it saves a live and make an example to his eventual followers, and it's also economically more efficient, as not only will he cost less, he will also be able to get back to work.
Theses facts stands even if you hate him with all your heart.
BishopLamont
Banned
A pile of shit can't murder people. It can only stink up the place. Not everyone can smell their own musk and stink though, so sometimes they need a talk and a little time to realise it to change, literally and mentally.
This has nothing to do with what you said. So as stated if you think the pain and suffering of having a loved one murdered is even in the same boat as wanting a ps3 since the ps2 you have is not good enough to keep you occupied. You are a terrible person if you even half believe that.
That's not true, a person that kills a billion people is still a person. They don't magically transform into piles of excrement, nor does it benefit society to pretend they do. The only path that benefits society at large is one with a rehabilitative stance. That is supported by the statistics. Therefore by definition the one who is not following reasoned studies to their logical conclusion and is being driven by sheer emotion is more likely to be taking "crazy pills."
It really all break down to punitive system vs rehabilitation system.
Maybe you should just not consider Norwegian prisons as such, more like rehabilitation centres.
Also yeah, the need for punishment is pretty backward and only leads to a vicious hate cycle. Even if the guy will never be rehabilitated, no, it does not necessarily make sense to have him suffer. It will not solve any problem.
If that was literally what happened to murderers, a lot of problems would be solved. Unfortunately, we don't live in some kind of fecal fantasy world, so murderers have no choice but to remain human. You think that killing a lot of people somehow forfeits your human rights? Unfortunately, that does not really apply to something commonly understood to be "inalienable fundamental rights to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being".
My point is that you can't quantify, measure or compare human suffering at all, so this simply cannot be relevant. You can say only one thing about someone who lost their loved one and someone who (for the sake of the argument) is spending an entire life in prison without any suitable entertainment or comfort: they both, well, suffer. It can be avoided in the latter case and it should be avoided, by all means. It doesn't mean that prisoners should have whatever they want, of course, it's up to the authorities to decide.
ElfArmy177
Member
Rehabilitation?? Really?? So its like murderers anonymous? Just a bit of a chat and a change of heart? Really?
So if I murdered your whole family right in front of you, you would be OK with "rehab" for me? I think people fail to connect to the families of those 21 people. I'm willing to say those that would be angry about this dude playing video games are far more sane than those who think its OK.
Fuck, sometimes I'd love to just sit around in a cell and play videogames and get food served to me.
cascardian
Member
The people who have had this happen to them, the victims' families, said themselves that they're happy with the Norwegian justice system being upheld. They just don't want to waste a second more thinking about him. There's nothing of the sort of revengeful thoughts you seem to imply people would ultimately succumb to. Or are you only speaking for the Americans in this thread?
Here's a quote for you:
To the guy who thinks the sentence is too lenient and asks whether there is any reason to think it will be extended, here's another quote from the same article from judge Arne Lyng himself:
Deified Data
Banned
Also if he plays them right and has any taste a typical PS2 backlog should last you more than 21 years.
Personal feelings are irrelevant in law making and society wide decisions.
And no ,it's not just "please don't do it again" and then free. You are pretty obnoxious. But you are free to believe USA has a better jailing system and that having quotas of prisoners to fill up private prisons is a solution that has proved to work well in lowering crime rates.
FYI he actually killed 77 people, not 21. Of course that does not mean that he somehow stopped being human. And even if the families of those people did want some kind of revenge (which they apparently didn't, as explained above), that would not be relevant, because that's not how the legal system works.
Deified Data
Banned
I agree that rehabilitation should be a priority. That said I don't believe all criminals can necessarily be rehabilitated without punishment. I feel like if the two poles aren't working in-sync they're working against one another.
Saintguine
Member
He got a PS2 instead of a PS3???!?!?!? This has got to be the most inhumane treatment, worst than how the Khmer Rouge treated their prisoners.
Seriously, being treated like an animal is an understatement. He's being treated worse than an animal.
Seriously, being treated like an animal is an understatement. He's being treated worse than an animal.
Hazelhurst
Member
I think he should be tortured for months, physically, until he ceases to breathe.
Have you been reading Amir0x's posts in this thread?
Nothing anyone does to this man will bring back the people he killed. Vengeance solves nothing. Turning a criminal into a productive member of society makes that society better.