Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 6: Final Destination confirmed for not fun

DisconnectD said:
I will just leave this here.

http://bit.do/Sm4sh-MoveSet-Changes
Click to expand...

"Zelda's transformation Down Special has been replaced with the chargeable, offensive/defensive Phantom slash. (a suit of armor that Phantom Zelda possessed in The LOZ: Spirit Tracks) It charges in front of Zelda and delivers a an arching slash and also can be used to absorb projectiles but crumples upon impact. » 04.08.2014"

No no no. Those suits of armor that Zelda possessed are called phantoms. They also appeared in Phantom Hourglass. There was more than one kind she could possess in ST, too.
 
We still talking about a second Wario representative? I've always supported Jimmy T as a playable character. He'd make a nice assist, too.

I hope we get a Shake It! stage, hopefully Nintendo hasn't forgot that game.
 
Weltall Zero said:
Indeed, I'm surprised people even still argue about this, particularly in a game like Smash that did away with more common dexterity checks like special move inputs. Does replacing B with the Haoh Soko Ken motion as the input for standing special raise the skill ceiling or depth of the game? It's the same argument as wave dashing. I feel it's just people who mastered these unnnecesary hurdles not wanting the time they spent going to waste, and I can even commiserate, but there's no rational justification for letting that in. As you say, anything that is a no-choice adds zero depth.
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, wavedashing takes thought and strategy to apply correctly. The input is tricky (I sure as hell can't do it) but there's far more going on under the hood, so to speak, than the bare input.
 
Sponge said:
We still talking about a second Wario representative? I've always supported Jimmy T as a playable character. He'd make a nice assist, too.

I hope we get a Shake It! stage, hopefully Nintendo hasn't forgot that game.
Click to expand...
I'm hoping for one too just to get some Wario Land music and remix :)
 
Hyperactivity said:
Yeah. Btw, do you guys hae any preferences on certain stages going to a specific version?
Want Temple in the WiiU one
Click to expand...

The thought occurred to me based on an old interview and the currently revealed throwback stages from the Direct, that the 3DS may get 64 & melee stages while the Wii U gets the Brawl stages, which sucks and is awesome at the same time for various reasons.

It could be explained from the interview since Sakurai wasn't sure if porting the brawl ones to the 3DS would be possible.

But my 3DS Pirate ship, desu?
 
Hatchtag said:
I'm guessing 30-45 new stages with 10-15 old stages per version.
My main worry is that we haven't seen a temple-like stage for the 3DS version. And that we haven't seen Temple on either version. Or Corneria. Or Fountain of Dreams.
Click to expand...

Please based Sakurai, give me Corneria 64 and Fountain of dreams on my 3DS, PLEASE
 
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Fun games btw. Heard you were playing some games, nice!
I got eyes everywhere hahah

And the beautiful thing about this is that it doesn't negatively affect the non-competitive players, but it's there should they ever reach new tiers of skill level.

Used a Brawl cheat on Dolphin that canceled all air attacks automatically and it felt great actually. I wouldn't mind if it was on by default, but in the recent direct you could see the poor landing lag for Yoshi's dair ;'

Link?
Click to expand...


But you're wrong there because what happens when a casual player goes up against someone who is more competitive and have no fucking clue why they are getting bodied and it discourages them from playing competitively?

l canceling being in would just be a noisy and unnecessary execution based skill barrier and would effect all players , especially the casuals. It will force them to have to learn more complex timings and not everyone wants to bloody do that. I speak from experience with Project M. I am getting decent but the fact that my roommate lives and breathes melee/PM & has all the execution down, means I have no chance anyway. It is bad game design and favoritism, when they can just halve the landing lag and be done with it.
 
Terrell said:
Then it's done. Just set the parameters of the punishment for losing. And don't be a wimp about it, I'm willing to go a year with whatever terrible avatar is chosen.



Well, it's not like ban bets are allowed anymore, so we work with what we have.





Care to take the wager on this?
Click to expand...

Yes. I'd love to
 
DisconnectD said:
But you're wrong there because what happens when a casual player goes up against someone who is more competitive and have no fucking clue why they are getting bodied and it discourages them from playing competitively?

l canceling being in would just be a noisy and unnecessary execution based skill barrier and would effect all players , especially the casuals. It will force them to have to learn more complex timings and not everyone wants to bloody do that. I speak from experience with Project M. I am getting decent but the fact that my roommate lives and breathes melee/PM & has all the execution down, means I have no chance anyway. It is bad game design and favoritism, when they can just halve the landing lag and be done with it.
Click to expand...
Favoritism toward skilled players is bad game design?
 
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Fun games btw. Heard you were playing some games, nice!
I got eyes everywhere hahah

And the beautiful thing about this is that it doesn't negatively affect the non-competitive players, but it's there should they ever reach new tiers of skill level.

Used a Brawl cheat on Dolphin that canceled all air attacks automatically and it felt great actually. I wouldn't mind if it was on by default, but in the recent direct you could see the poor landing lag for Yoshi's dair ;'

Link?
Click to expand...

FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Excessive landing lag like Link's dair should never be a thing in Smash Bros. IMO. They should either give us the control to cancel it so it's skill-based (again, also doesn't impact people who don't know about it, yet naturally increases the skill gap* or make it automatic by default.

There shouldn't be a situation where they say "well, let's just remove it and let players adjust to moves with long lag times" because you know what? Those kinds of moves go unused comparatively and if I had a say in it, I'd rather all my moves be useful, which is what canceling landing lag does so you don't get stuck, allowing you to chain combos more efficiently.


*I should also note how I think there should be an Advanced Tutorials section detailing Smash's advanced tech; everything from simple quick recoveries when you're falling to spacing attacks based on hitboxes, priority, etc.


EDIT:

Looks like his forward tilt:

GzdjX.gif
Click to expand...


I feel bad now since I didn't read your entire post.

Yes, please. It needs to be automatic or it needs to not exist. Preferably automatic, because manual L-canceling does nothing but artificially create a skill gap and it's bad game design. I love the perspective you guys put it in, with the mention of no mindful player would ever choose to not do it, if they knew about it but there is a flaw: some people like me that know about it, still don't don't do it because they're lazy or belligerent. It's my fault sure, but just as much the fault of the person/s who added such an annoying and arbitrary mechanic to the game. The skill gap should be based on what you guys mentioned, not how fast and frequently I can mash a specific button with too timing. It is fucking redundant and needs to stay dead.
 
TheLegendOfCap said:
Even though Villager made it very unlikely, I think that Takamaru and Balloon Fighter would be perfect candidates for the retroes of this game.
Click to expand...

Sakurai seemed to have passed over balloon fighter for Ice climbers because it would be too difficult to have him floating all the time with a game like Smash, and awkward and unfitting to be on the ground. Villager's recovery is perfect representation of the mechanic though, since he is ground based and the balloons can be popped to gimp his recovery!

That leaved Takamaru and who knows who else? What are best candidates? Mach rider, advanced wars , excitebiker, duck hunt dog? He wanted to add mach rider and/ or excite biker at different times but they were too difficult to capture properly IIRC, because of the bikes and needing walk/run animations.
 
DisconnectD said:
But you're wrong there because what happens when a casual player goes up against someone who is more competitive and have no fucking clue why they are getting bodied and it discourages them from playing competitively?

l canceling being in would just be a noisy and unnecessary execution based skill barrier and would effect all players , especially the casuals. It will force them to have to learn more complex timings and not everyone wants to bloody do that. I speak from experience with Project M. I am getting decent but the fact that my roommate lives and breathes melee/PM & has all the execution down, means I have no chance anyway. It is bad game design and favoritism, when they can just halve the landing lag and be done with it.
Click to expand...

Ideally you'd be able to play with someone closer to your skill level but that either requires going out to certain places and meeting people which can be (understandably) difficult for people or playing online which isn't really a viable option with PM (aside from maybe Dolphin netplay which I've never tried). But like Karsticles said this isn't bad design, in any game where there is a huge skill gap between two players and the less skilled player is having difficulty improving, the less skilled player is going to feel like he has no chance.

The only group of people I think L canceling really negatively affects is competitive players who don't like doing it. I think it is sort of arbitrary.
 
GamerJM said:
Ideally you'd be able to play with someone closer to your skill level but that either requires going out to certain places and meeting people which can be (understandably) difficult for people or playing online which isn't really a viable option with PM (aside from maybe Dolphin netplay which I've never tried). But like Karsticles said this isn't bad design, in any game where there is a huge skill gap between two players and the less skilled player is having difficulty improving, the less skilled player is going to feel like he has no chance.

The only group of people I think L canceling really negatively affects is competitive players who don't like doing it. I think it is sort of arbitrary.
Click to expand...

Ideally the new matchmaking system will help find appropriate opponents. Hopefully it's competent.

A wide skill gap is absolutely critical to the game's competitive success. I just hope the skill gap is formed by the potential for complex decision making, rather than brainless mandatory inputs such as L-cancelling.
 
DaBoss said:
Not all stages will have Final Destination versions.

Interestingly, most 3DS stages don't look like they could have FD versions.

You explained what I meant in a better way. Thanks.
Click to expand...

It would be unlikely for the For Glory mode to only be on Wii U, right? I mean, we have limited data to extrapolate on, but I feel it would have been mentioned during the online section of the direct, just like Smash run was made very clear to be 3DS exclusive.

I can only imagine what those Final Destination variations will look like on 3DS.

Super Mario 3D land
Prism tower
Rainbow road
Gerudo valley
Arena ferrox
Reset bomb forest
Living room
Find Mii

All those I could see having FD variations

Spirit tracks
Jungle japes

Tortimer island
Spirit train
Balloon fight
Tomodatchi

Those seem like a stretch
 
Karsticles said:
Favoritism toward skilled players is bad game design?
Click to expand...

In the case of L-canceling, that argument can be made. If somebody can name me a situation in which not L-canceling would be beneficial, please do, because the argument I'm about to make is based entirely around that idea that L-canceling is always beneficial, and the player should attempt to do it every time.

If, every time the player lands, it is in their favor to l-cancel, then that process should be removed and all characters' landing lag should be decreased, or all characters' landing lag should just be left as it is, and the designers should balance it out themselves. Because if it's something the player always has to do, then it removes strategy. It simply becomes another input they have to make upon landing, every time they land.

However, if they were more diverse possibilities, then it could be argued that L-canceling should stay. Take for instance, Yoshi's Down B. When he lands, there is an impact, stars are thrown out to the side, and obviously it takes him a little time to get back into fighting position. Now consider if the game let you L-cancel to remove the landing lag, but in return the stars don't come out and you don't get the extra attack/defense they provide. Or maybe with Shiek's Up B, you don't get the explosion at the end. You get to reduce landing lag, but at the expense of other things. There is a trade off, and an actual choice to be made. (Now I know some people might say that you would still always L-cancel, because the Yoshi's stars are no big loss, but I'm just using this as an example of more diverse options for the player) As it is now, there's no choice. Just necessity with extra button inputs.
 
The Xtortionist said:
Ideally the new matchmaking system will help find appropriate opponents. Hopefully it's competent.

A wide skill gap is absolutely critical to the game's competitive success. I just hope the skill gap is formed by the potential for complex decision making, rather than brainless mandatory inputs such as L-cancelling.
Click to expand...

I don't like L-cancelling personally but a big part of the game is driven by execution. If it was just complex decision making the game would be a turn-based strategy game and if it was just execution it would basically be a rhythm game (no decision making involved means the game tells you what inputs to perform at what time effectively making it one).
 
DisconnectD said:
But you're wrong there because what happens when a casual player goes up against someone who is more competitive and have no fucking clue why they are getting bodied and it discourages them from playing competitively?

l canceling being in would just be a noisy and unnecessary execution based skill barrier and would effect all players , especially the casuals. It will force them to have to learn more complex timings and not everyone wants to bloody do that. I speak from experience with Project M. I am getting decent but the fact that my roommate lives and breathes melee/PM & has all the execution down, means I have no chance anyway. It is bad game design and favoritism, when they can just halve the landing lag and be done with it.
Click to expand...

This is a hilarious scenario, because it's not gonna happen, nobody will quit playing competitively just because they got wrecked online this one time (protip: they were never interested).

Weltall Zero said:
Indeed, I'm surprised people even still argue about this, particularly in a game like Smash that did away with more common dexterity checks like special move inputs. Does replacing B with the Haoh Soko Ken motion as the input for standing special raise the skill ceiling or depth of the game? It's the same argument as wave dashing. I feel it's just people who mastered these unnnecesary hurdles not wanting the time they spent going to waste, and I can even commiserate, but there's no rational justification for letting that in. As you say, anything that is a no-choice adds zero depth.
Click to expand...

no it's not, wavedashing isn't a binary choice
 
Gsnap said:
In the case of L-canceling, that argument can be made. If somebody can name me a situation in which not L-canceling would be beneficial, please do, because the argument I'm about to make is based entirely around that idea that L-canceling is always beneficial, and the player should attempt to do it every time.

If, every time the player lands, it is in their favor to l-cancel, then that process should be removed and all characters' landing lag should be decreased, or all characters' landing lag should just be left as it is, and the designers should balance it out themselves. Because if it's something the player always has to do, then it removes strategy. It simply becomes another input they have to make upon landing, every time they land.

However, if they were more diverse possibilities, then it could be argued that L-canceling should stay. Take for instance, Yoshi's Down B. When he lands, there is an impact, stars are thrown out to the side, and obviously it takes him a little time to get back into fighting position. Now consider if the game let you L-cancel to remove the landing lag, but in return the stars don't come out and you don't get the extra attack/defense they provide. Or maybe with Shiek's Up B, you don't get the explosion at the end. You get to reduce landing lag, but at the expense of other things. There is a trade off, and an actual choice to be made. (Now I know some people might say that you would still always L-cancel, because the Yoshi's stars are no big loss, but I'm just using this as an example of more diverse options for the player) As it is now, there's no choice. Just necessity with extra button inputs.
Click to expand...
I think your argument is fair and reasonable
 
GamerJM said:
I don't like L-cancelling personally but a big part of the game is driven by execution. If it was just complex decision making the game would be a turn-based strategy game and if it was just execution it would basically be a rhythm game (no decision making involved means the game tells you what inputs to perform at what time effectively making it one).
Click to expand...

What I meant was that I believe every single input executed in game should have some level of tactical decision making behind it. L-cancelling is the optimal move in literally every situation where it can be applied, so I think it should be removed.
 
As far as wavedashing goes, I really doubt nerfing the input would have any bearing on the game's skill gap. A experienced player with high-level spacing, decision making, and mindgames is still going to dominate a novice player regardless of input complexity. That could be for wavedashing or anything, really.
 
The Xtortionist said:
What I meant was that I believe every single input executed in game should have some level of tactical decision making behind it. L-cancelling is the optimal move in literally every situation where it can be applied, so I think it should be removed.
Click to expand...

Essentially this.

I like the analogy of being turn-based vs. rhythm, and fighting games or starcraft are somewhere in the middle (I'd consider twitch shooters a little more on the rhythm side). L-cancelling is basically a rhythm game mechanic in smash bros. though, so keeping it in doesn't fit with the overall compeitive design.
 
RagnarokX said:
"Zelda's transformation Down Special has been replaced with the chargeable, offensive/defensive Phantom slash. (a suit of armor that Phantom Zelda possessed in The LOZ: Spirit Tracks) It charges in front of Zelda and delivers a an arching slash and also can be used to absorb projectiles but crumples upon impact. » 04.08.2014"

No no no. Those suits of armor that Zelda possessed are called phantoms. They also appeared in Phantom Hourglass. There was more than one kind she could possess in ST, too.
Click to expand...

The name of the attack is Phantom slash though. They are suits of armor animated by magic yes? Never played spirit tracks but I have seen them in action. What should I put instead then to make it more accurate?
 
This is probably pretty obvious but I also want to point out that making L-canceling automatic and wavedashing easier or simpler or something wouldn't mean that the game wouldn't have execution barriers, you still need to be able to perform combos and perform other skills in certain scenarios that would require a high level of input execution in a short period of time. This means that while the top players have to have high level mindgames, fundamentals, spacing, etc. above everything else, they're still also people who are skilled in terms of execution.
 
Troubled Bat said:
I'd still wonder what a Balloon Fighter would do. Haha.
Click to expand...

DisconnectD said:
Sakurai seemed to have passed over balloon fighter for Ice climbers because it would be too difficult to have him floating all the time with a game like Smash, and awkward and unfitting to be on the ground. Villager's recovery is perfect representation of the mechanic though, since he is ground based and the balloons can be popped to gimp his recovery!
Click to expand...

I made this moveset for him a long while back. He's one of my top choices for a newcomer so I wanted to give him a good moveset. People seemed to like it when I showed it to them! What do you guys think?

Edit: in case its hard to read it's a "Pump" based moveset where his strengths come from pumping balloons up and using them to his advantage.

tumblr_m9hmin2JjQ1r37powo1_r1_500.jpg
 
DisconnectD said:
The name of the attack is Phantom slash though. They are suits of armor animated by magic yes? Never played spirit tracks but I have seen them in action. What should I put instead then to make it more accurate?
Click to expand...
Right. It's called phantom slash because she controls a phantom. The monsters were phantoms, not Zelda. It's a specific name of a creature.

"Zelda's transformation Down Special has been replaced with the chargeable, offensive/defensive Phantom slash. (a living suit of armor called a phantom that Zelda possessed in The LOZ: Spirit Tracks) It charges in front of Zelda and delivers a an arching slash and also can be used to absorb projectiles but crumples upon impact. » 04.08.2014"
 
RagnarokX said:
:constructive criticism:
Click to expand...


Zelda's transformation Down Special has been replaced with the chargeable, offensive/defensive "Phantom slash" (Phantoms are magically animated suits of armor from Phantom Hourglass & Spirit tracks, that Phantom Zelda could possess in the latter) It charges in front of Zelda and delivers an arching slash and also can be used to absorb projectiles but crumples upon impact

Is that better?

I like yours better so I used it :) more concise, thanks.
 
DisconnectD said:
Zelda's transformation Down Special has been replaced with the chargeable, offensive/defensive "Phantom slash" (Phantoms are magically animated suits of armor from Phantom Hourglass & Spirit tracks, that Phantom Zelda could possess in the latter) It charges in front of Zelda and delivers an arching slash and also can be used to absorb projectiles but crumples upon impact

Is that better?
Click to expand...
Stop calling her phantom Zelda and that'd be perfect :P
 
I changed my roster around a bit.

4bczwz3.png


There are 7 post-Brawl newcomers, 7 “old” newcomers, and 2 guest newcomers. I tried grouping related games/series together.

The Gematsu leak has me curious about Shulk. How different from Ike would he be? Surprisingly, YouTube doesn’t seem to have any compilation videos of his various Arts.
 
In your scenarios where you mention how someone who knows how to Z/L Cancel is at a clear advantage... Well, isn't that obvious? If I put in the effort to improve at a game by looking up videos, going through Advanced Tutorials to learn the intricacies of the game, and just generally researching ways to improve my game, shouldn't I have an advantage over a player who doesn't do any of that?

Look at this gif for example:
iJ6sqo97VEsT5.gif

-->Yoshi gets stuck in the ground for a bit, whereas if you could cancel that then you could follow up with another attack. I don't see how you would rather no landing lag canceling than having it be manual. What's the barrier of entry here other than actually learning about it?

Mind you, I also mentioned this:
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
There shouldn't be a situation where they say "well, let's just remove it and let players adjust to moves with long lag times" because you know what? Those kinds of moves go unused comparatively and if I had a say in it, I'd rather all my moves be useful, which is what canceling landing lag does so you don't get stuck, allowing you to chain combos more efficiently.


*I should also note how I think there should be an Advanced Tutorials section detailing Smash's advanced tech; everything from simple quick recoveries when you're falling to spacing attacks based on hitboxes, priority, etc.
Click to expand...
I just find it unnecessary to remove depth to a game (since it appears to not be automatic) when we've seen how useful it can make all characters and all moves. It's not too difficult to do either, and it eventually just becomes second nature. I would like for there to be no landing lag, but if they want to include it (which they do based on the footage we've seen) then I don't see why people would want no way to cancel moves with excessively long recovery times.

Key Note: Animation cancels are part of many games, as are How To Plays and Advanced Tech sections. If they were to build a section like this in the game itself, then all players would be exposed to it, possibly even building curiosity for players to further research advanced play, look up videos, read strategies, and just generally get involved with the Smash scene more.

It's all connected. Smash is a game with so much depth, so I never saw the reason to remove aspects of the game that increased the skill gap when we've seen in both 64 and Melee how those games appealed to all types of crowds, and they both had Z/L Canceling.
 
Have we seen anything to give us a more whole picture of Zelda's new attack? Can she move during it? What does charging it do? What does spamming it do?
 


I noticed this a couple of days ago but didn't have time to do anything. If you watch Diddy, when he jumps it looks like he becomes floaty in a similar fashion of the "Triple Jump Glitch" or some sort from Brawl. I know it's still in development and is hopefully going to be subjected to change but I felt like pointing it out.

Also this is my first webm; hope it is satisfactory :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Super Mario Bros Sequel Movie Titled "Super Mario World"
20
437
E-Cat replied
Ready or Not confirmed for consoles, summer 2025
9
1K
rodrigolfp replied
ARC Raiders hinted for 6/6 release?
11
232
Jinzo Prime replied
Japan uses classic arcade games like Space Invaders and VS. Super Mario Bros to collect donations for Akihabara redevelopment
Social 
3
518
GrayDock replied
Super Smash Bros. creator Masahiro Sakurai encourages Japanese developers to pursue the kind of games Japanese people love instead of adapting
Game Dev  2
67
3K
semiconscious replied
Top Bottom