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[Azure J]

Id ~ Purpose

Damn this game's soundtrack is so fucking good.

The shortened range on that arrow really makes me feel like they changed the arrow animations so that you could better tell when an arrow is charged up or not. It reminds me of the Uprising charged shots looking at this now.

Still conjecture but eh.

I think Medusa has a lot more potential as a playable character - a stage or something dedicated to Hades, to let him chat up a storm, would suit him better. Medusa's pretty much pure action. Plus, seniority, first female villain, can work as a semi-clone of Palutena, yadda yadda yadda.

Pretty much. I definitely have nothing against Hades, but let's work on the original big 3 first.

 

[Kyzon]

I usually find their discussion videos to be weak. And really, you'll probably hear about the stuff they say in discussion videos in forums, so it really isn't much new.

Their comparison videos and analysis videos are really great.

But yea, this ROB cutting stuff is silly.

Yeah that. It seems that they are mistaken with a lot of stuff in their discussion videos. At least in relation to smash. I don't understand their logic half the time.

Agreed that ROB isn't going anywhere. I'm not a fan of playing as him, but that doesn't make him l less iconic. He was a great addition, and I'm sure Sakurai feels that way as well.

 

[jnWake]

I don't see ROB being cut, since I don't see any reason for that happening. Mr. Game and Watch was a weird retro character in Melee yet he made it into Brawl, so I expect ROB to get the same treatment.

Of the Brawl veterans, I think the ones that risk being cut are Snake, Lucas, Wolf (or Falco) and Ike mainly. Snake is kind of an obvious one since he depends on Konami, Lucas isn't really relevant (as much as I love Mother 3), the Star Fox franchise isn't relevant enough to have 3 characters and well Ike could suffer Roy's fate. However, I mostly expect cuts if the development has been rushed, otherwise I expect all of them to return.

 

[Caladrius]

I was able to find all of the Spirit Tracks figures today, including Alfonzo:

Now I can leave things to him.

Somebody's gotta head to that Nintendo investor's meeting.

When Iwata is away Alfonzo saves the day.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Really don't get the hate for ROB. Give me more bizarre choices like that!

Exactly why I want someone like Stork, Monita, Tingle, King Boo, or someone like that.

 

[anotherVegan]

I thought greninja's hands were actually mewtwo's hands. But I'm still thrilled my ninja frog is in.

 

[Kyzon]

The vast majority see him as a clone, and so therefore he is.

Wolf is a clone in a lesser way than Toon Link. In the clone-o-meter, Wolf ranks below Falco and Toon Link, who both rank below Roy

Wolf and Falco (and Ganondorf) are Luigis since Brawl. B moves are a bit similar, though not the same. Everything else though is completely different. Toon Link is an actual clone though. Other than a couple move changes that are there due to his tiny limbs, he's 100% Link with different properties for his attacks.

 

[Choppasmith]

Hades is gonna provide the commentary on his stage, of course

Yes please!

Mimicuties are confirmed to appear in Smash Run. Take that as you will.

Aren't Uprising styled treasure boxes confirmed for normal matches as an item container? If so, there could random Mimicuties just like how some containers explode instead of yielding items.

 

[NeonZ]

The vast majority see him as a clone, and so therefore he is.

I really hope Sakurai doesn't waste time with similar characters this time. Wolf has an entirely unique set of normals, and all his specials, although having some similarities with Fox's, have entirely different animations, and yet most people seem to treat him the same as Melee Falco, which mostly reused Fox's assets.

It seems like if he's going to do any similar characters, he should just go straight to Melee-style model swaps with stat changes, since doing more seems to be a waste to most players. That way, we might get more characters too. So, if he ends up adding Medusa as a Pallutena clone, like suggested above, she should straight up reuse most of Pallutena's attacks and animations, since tweaking them, even to the point of entirely different normals, would be just overlooked by most players. The time and resources gained by doing that then can go to a separate character, even if it's just another clone.

 

[GamerJM]

Well in fairness, there were a grand total of two games before Brawl and no reason why the original 12 couldn't make it back for Melee.

I still suspect there will be cuts, but the final roster for Smash 4 will be bigger than Brawl's

Obviously. My point was as of now we have no idea if characters could potentially be brought back because there hasn't been a chance for it to happen yet.

 

[theprodigy]

The vast majority see him as a clone, and so therefore he is.

this is some awful logic right here

 

[oreomunsta]

Wolf and Falco (and Ganondorf) are Luigis since Brawl. B moves are a bit similar, though not the same. Everything else though is completely different. Toon Link is an actual clone though. Other than a couple move changes that are there due to his tiny limbs, he's 100% Link with different properties for his attacks.

I would even go so far as to call the Wolf/Fox and Dorfy/Captain pairings less 'clone-y' than Falco/Fox because Wolf and Ganondorf have very different weights and speeds to their attacks. Falco is very similar to Fox in terms of weight and speed. Toon Link, although lighter than Link, is more of a clone than Wolf is because, like you said, his moveset is a near-straight rip off Link's.

The only reasons I see for Wolf being cut are that either Sakurai just wasn't too pleased by how the character turned out and removed him to lessen the workload or somehow the general (and wrong) opinion that Wolf is a clone has led Sakurai to believe that Wolf is not a popular character.

Don't listen to them Sakurai, I'll still play as Wolf and have fun with that thing ;~;

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

this is some awful logic right here

He's more clone-ish than the unique characters; people obviously don't mean he's 100% identical when using the word. It's just become the popular short-hand phrase in which to refer to similar characters.

I like the alternate skin idea that someone mentioned earlier with some base stat changes--that would make a ton of sense

 

[Starphoenix]

GameXplain possible Newcomers discussion.
55 minutes. Hot Damn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDkQ6F7R_d0

Well that was gross to watch. Lucario replaced Mewtwo? Cut Lucas for being too similar to Ness? No King K. Rool because he hasn't appeared in a recent Donkey Kong game? Wolf gets cut for being a clone when Falco still has yet to differentiate himself significantly from Fox? This is the kind of stuff I'd be laughing about on Gamefaqs. And the R.O.B hate just sickens me to the core. Smash community sickens me.

 

[SkullHydra]

I would even go so far as to call the Wolf/Fox and Dorfy/Captain pairings less 'clone-y' than Falco/Fox because Wolf and Ganondorf have very different weights and speeds to their attacks. Falco is very similar to Fox in terms of weight and speed. Toon Link, although lighter than Link, is more of a clone than Wolf is because, like you said, his moveset is a near-straight rip off Link's.

The only reasons I see for Wolf being cut are that either Sakurai just wasn't too pleased by how the character turned out and removed him to lessen the workload or somehow the general (and wrong) opinion that Wolf is a clone has led Sakurai to believe that Wolf is not a popular character.

Don't listen to them Sakurai, I'll still play as Wolf and have fun with that thing ;~;

Agreed. Wolf is different than Fox in quite a lot of ways! It's the same with Lucas IMO. Lucas and Ness play very differently, so it saddens me when most people consider him a clone.

 

[Terrell]

I agree with their assessments except for Mewtwo and ROB.

For Mewtwo, their opinions on his chances are based on the incorrect assumption that he was replaced by Lucario. As we all know, he was intended to be in Brawl, but due to the last minute work that Sonic needed to be in the game, he was cut for time constraints. Knowing this, there is NO WAY he isn't in Smash 4. Sakurai will not cut a character he intended to have in Brawl.

As for ROB, I need everyone to state the single example so far of a completely unique character being cut. That's right, there is only one, Mewtwo, due to the aformentioned time constraints surrounding Sonic's inclusion. All other characters who were cut between Melee and Brawl were clones. ROB will be in the game, guaranteed.

Agreed on the Mewtwo discussion, but ROB... there's just not that many fans for him as you'd think, and as everyone needs to be reminded, cuts will happen if Sakurai deems them necessary, as he's already stated. If he can't fit and he's not popular, his chances of making it are slim.

Am I the only one in the world who prefers Medusa over Hades?

No.

We're the only two.

I liked her from a character design perspective more than Hades. It was such an amazing visual design that you couldn't NOT like it.

But I can see why people like Hades more.

I didn't just dislike playing R.O.B., but also found him annoying and unfun to play against. I encourage him to be cut.

On a side note, was watching that GameExplain video and noticed yet again how glorious that Pilot Wings stage looks. So good. Also, the people who think King K. Rool are gonna get in are really reaching.

MY MAN!!

 

[Kyzon]

I would even go so far as to call the Wolf/Fox and Dorfy/Captain pairings less 'clone-y' than Falco/Fox because Wolf and Ganondorf have very different weights and speeds to their attacks. Falco is very similar to Fox in terms of weight and speed. Toon Link, although lighter than Link, is more of a clone than Wolf is because, like you said, his moveset is a near-straight rip off Link's.

The only reasons I see for Wolf being cut are that either Sakurai just wasn't too pleased by how the character turned out and removed him to lessen the workload or somehow the general (and wrong) opinion that Wolf is a clone has led Sakurai to believe that Wolf is not a popular character.

Don't listen to them Sakurai, I'll still play as Wolf and have fun with that thing ;~;

Speaking of Falco, did Sakurai or anyone ever say anything about why he only has one gun? In SSE he comes in with 2 pistols, and I was actually looking forward to playing with him due to that alone.


I tihnk Falco will be even more varied from Fox in the new game. Wolf as well. Wolf is very feral, and I love him for it. All howls all the time.

 

[anotherVegan]

Agreed. Wolf is different than Fox in quite a lot of ways! It's the same with Lucas IMO. Lucas and Ness play very differently, so it saddens me when most people consider him a clone.

This. Sure they are similar, but each with different play styles and variations on moves.

I can see where custom move sets and alternate costumes would be in favor of "clone" characters. I could see this going places.

And, dangit, I want a dual swords move set for Gannonforf, followed by a trident wielding pig Ganon as his final smash.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

No King K. Rool because he hasn't appeared in a recent Donkey Kong game?

They didn't say that was a reason he wouldn't appear

And the R.O.B hate just sickens me to the core. Smash community sickens me.

What hate? I don't think I've seen any for ROB

And, dangit, I want a dual swords move set for Gannonforf, followed by a trident wielding pig Ganon as his final smash.

That needs to happen

 

[oreomunsta]

Agreed. Wolf is different than Fox in quite a lot of ways! It's the same with Lucas IMO. Lucas and Ness play very differently, so it saddens me when most people consider him a clone.

Although I didn't enjoy playing as Lucas, he was unique compared to Ness! If by some crazy chance Wolf and Lucas get cut, then there's going to be such a pang of irony when I'll see Toon Link's smug face on the character select screen =/

 

[theprodigy]

Speaking of Falco, did Sakurai or anyone ever say anything about why he only has one gun? In SSE he comes in with 2 pistols, and I was actually looking forward to playing with him due to that alone.


I tihnk Falco will be even more varied from Fox in the new game. Wolf as well. Wolf is very feral, and I love him for it. All howls all the time.

double pew pew?
I'm ok with this

 

[Speedwagon]

Really don't get the hate for ROB. Give me more bizarre choices like that!

I don't think he has enough character or relevance to constitute being playable. Sure he's unique, but not in a good way.

 

[NeonZ]

Speaking of Falco, did Sakurai or anyone ever say anything about why he only has one gun? In SSE he comes in with 2 pistols, and I was actually looking forward to playing with him due to that alone.

I think it's very likely that SSE was mostly worked on separately from the main game. It barely shares assets with it aside from the Halberd, an arena shown in Brawl's original unveil, where its engine seemed to be basically a modded Melee. They couldn't even reuse any of the closed arena locations as actual multiplayer Smash arenas either.

And, dangit, I want a dual swords move set for Gannonforf, followed by a trident wielding pig Ganon as his final smash.

I wonder if Demise could be added for people who wanted a revamped Ganondorf, while Ganondorf himself stays mostly the same?

 

[Starphoenix]

What hate? I don't think I've seen any for ROB

I didn't just dislike playing R.O.B., but also found him annoying and unfun to play against. I encourage him to be cut.

Ya'll technophobes. That's my main.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Well it is hard to get less relevant than completely irrelevant

ROB is pretty awesome, but I'd actually like to see Smash cut more characters from time to time and bring them back later. It would make the veterans a lot more exciting

What? It don't really work like that way, so I think it's silly for actively wanting someone to cut so they can feel refreshing next games. What if there is no next games.

Well that was gross to watch. Lucario replaced Mewtwo? Cut Lucas for being too similar to Ness? No King K. Rool because he hasn't appeared in a recent Donkey Kong game? Wolf gets cut for being a clone when Falco still has yet to differentiate himself significantly from Fox? This is the kind of stuff I'd be laughing about on Gamefaqs. And the R.O.B hate just sickens me to the core. Smash community sickens me.

Yet you love Smash community at same time.

 

[theprodigy]

Ya'll technophobes. That's my main.

Would you say some people are technophobic then?

 

[Kyzon]

double pew pew?
I'm ok with this

I'd personally give Fox the Smash 64 lasers back, and have Falco shoot twin beams in air, and maybe shoot opposite directions on ground.

He should still kick his reflector I guess, but it needs better properties than a lame trip. Make it pop enemies upwards like his reflector actually does.

Fire Falco could change in many ways, but I'm not sure how. Maybe making it weak, yet having a sweet spot explosion at his nose at the end of the attack?

Falco Phantasm is fine.

 

[Matt Attack]

ROB was my first Brawl main. I don't play him much anymore but I really do hope he returns. He would be too unique for me not to miss him.

 

[Starphoenix]

Yet you love Smash community at same time.

Just when I think I'm out, Sakurai keeps pulling me back in.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

What? It don't really work like that way, so I think it's silly for actively wanting someone to cut so they can feel refreshing next games. What if there is no next games.

We both know there will always be new Smash Bros games

I'd personally give Fox the Smash 64 lasers back, and have Falco shoot twin beams in air, and maybe shoot opposite directions on ground.

My man! Smash 64 laser is where's it at!

 

[Revven]

The vast majority see him as a clone, and so therefore he is.

It's a really annoying mind set because the players who think this are only looking at special moves. For whatever reason, people think special moves are the core to what makes a character... unique when that couldn't be any further from the truth.

I really hope Sakurai doesn't waste time with similar characters this time. Wolf has an entirely unique set of normals, and all his specials, although having some similarities with Fox's, have entirely different animations, and yet most people seem to treat him the same as Melee Falco, which mostly reused Fox's assets.

It seems like if he's going to do any similar characters, he should just go straight to Melee-style model swaps with stat changes, since doing more seems to be a waste to most players. That way, we might get more characters too. So, if he ends up adding Medusa as a Pallutena clone, like suggested above, she should straight up reuse most of Pallutena's attacks and animations, since tweaking them, even to the point of entirely different normals, would be just overlooked by most players. The time and resources gained by doing that then can go to a separate character, even if it's just another clone.

This makes a ton of sense. But I have my doubts Sakurai will do it, I think he'll still try to "declone" characters because it's such an oft-discussed thing for casual players.

Even if you try to point out the differences between Ness and Lucas, people will still decry Lucas for being a clone. People actually would rather him cut than being in the game simply because he only shares a few similarities to Ness.

For every "clone" we get, it's just +1 to the roster. Every "clone" we don't get it's -1, there's no loss for having "clones" in the game. If people understood that then I don't think we'd be hearing as many complaints but people have this mentality that the time it takes to make a "clone" takes away from the time they had to make a completely original and unique character when that isn't true at all.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I doubt R.O.B. or Wolf would be coming back. They weren't that popular and I think Jiggly probably won't either. I do however hope that Mr. Game & Watch will come back.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Wanting something cut just to be put back in the next game, just for the excitement is like not worth it at all, the last several smash games has taken more than 3 years to come out., its just not worth the wait.for a short term high

 

[Kriken]

My man! Smash 64 laser is where's it at!

Man, the Smash 64 laser gun was outright broken if you could time it right.

 

[HK-47]

The vast majority see him as a clone, and so therefore he is.

Appeal to majority makes for a bad argument

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

It's a really annoying mind set because the players who think this are only looking at special moves. For whatever reason, people think special moves are the core to what makes a character... unique when that couldn't be any further from the truth.

I don't think most people feel that way. It's just that those moves, are by design, the most distinctive. So it's a bit of a bummer to see a character's most distinctive moves so similar to another's.

Wanting something cut just to be put back in the next game, just for the excitement is like not worth it at all, the last several smash games has taken more than 3 years to come out., its just not worth the wait.for a short term high

All the more reason to!

 

[oreomunsta]

Ya'll technophobes. That's my main.

Don't worry. There's R.O.B. love in here. He needs to be updated kinda badly, but there's a place for him!

What? It don't really work like that way, so I think it's silly for actively wanting someone to cut so they can feel refreshing next games. What if there is no next games.

Intelli, please... =<

I do believe that part of the reasoning behind this Namco collaboration is to get Namco to make future Smashes when Sakurai no longer wants to. The only price that has to be paid for future collaborations is the inclusion of that terrible yellow gobstopper

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

For every "clone" we get, it's just +1 to the roster. Every "clone" we don't get it's -1, there's no loss for having "clones" in the game. If people understood that then I don't think we'd be hearing as many complaints but people have this mentality that the time it takes to make a "clone" takes away from the time they had to make a completely original and unique character when that isn't true at all.

Not in a 1:1 sense, but I'd much rather have 1 more unique character than any amount of clones

 

[theprodigy]

Appeal to majority makes for a bad argument

*unless it's in my favor this time
(not you, just in general)

 

[Hatchtag]

The problem with the term clones is there's essentially two definitions for it in terms of Smash.
There's clones in terms of how they're made: movesets based heavily on another character. Lucas, Wolf, Toon Link, Young Link, Pichu, Falco, Roy, Ganondorf, Dr. Mario, and Luigi all easily fall under this category. You can't deny that they're based heavily off a pre-existing character. They re-use animations, or use similar ones, their movesets are largely similar, ect.
There's also, however, clones in terms of how they play. Most those characters don't really fall under this. Luigi in N64, Pichu, and Dr. Mario are the only characters I'd say you could really make an argument for not playing very differently. Just changing the weight, size, or power on a character and adjusting his attacks for it can make a character play much differently.


As a sidenote, are there any characters who were decloned in Brawl that didn't become complete shit from getting decloned? It's kind of why I don't really want anyone to get decloned, because they did such a shit job in Brawl.

 

[Kyzon]

We both know there will always be new Smash Bros games



My man! Smash 64 laser is where's it at!

Me and my bro would spend literal hours playing baseball with it.
Ness vs Fox

 

[Starphoenix]

Don't worry. There's R.O.B. love in here. He needs to be updated kinda badly, but there's a place for him!

That's all he needs is a little t.l.c. All the R.O.B hate reminds me of all the people during Brawl going around saying Mr. Game and Watch deserved to be cut because he wasn't that popular, no one asked for him and didn't deserve to be playable over character X, Y and Z. How big that faction was compared to the amount of people who don't like R.O.B, I couldn't say; but it is a little bit of history repeating itself.

 

[Terrell]

If people understood that then I don't think we'd be hearing as many complaints but people have this mentality that the time it takes to make a "clone" takes away from the time they had to make a completely original and unique character when that isn't true at all.

So characters just... what, balance themselves?

Every character inclusion, even the mainstay 12, take time to make happen, that's not a matter of debate.

 

[Neiteio]

Nitpicking:

The stage is called "Angel Land" in Japan and "Skyworld" in Europe. And the Skyworld stage in Brawl had a Palutena statue as well.

"Hikari Shinwa: Parutena no Kagami" translates to "Myth of Light: The Mirror of Palutena

EDIT: Whoops, read and responded too fast, you're talking about stage names, not game names

 

[HK-47]

I don't think he has enough character or relevance to constitute being playable. Sure he's unique, but not in a good way.

Most Nintendo characters barely have character. Tons of cyphers and one dimensional avatars. Not to mention its a fighting game. And smash is populated with characters that are irrelevant to Nintendo currently. ROBs moveset is more important than anything.

 

[theprodigy]

Me and my bro would spend literal hours playing baseball with it.
Ness vs Fox

Clearly, the Fox version of this was the real origin of 20XX.

 

[Kyzon]

The problem with the term clones is there's essentially two definitions for it in terms of Smash.
There's clones in terms of how they're made: movesets based heavily on another character. Lucas, Wolf, Toon Link, Young Link, Pichu, Falco, Roy, Ganondorf, Dr. Mario, and Luigi all easily fall under this category. You can't deny that they're based heavily off a pre-existing character. They re-use animations, or use similar ones, their movesets are largely similar, ect.
There's also, however, clones in terms of how they play. Most those characters don't really fall under this. Luigi in N64, Pichu, and Dr. Mario are the only characters I'd say you could really make an argument for not playing very differently. Just changing the weight, size, or power on a character and adjusting his attacks for it can make a character play much differently.


As a sidenote, are there any characters who were decloned in Brawl that didn't become complete shit from getting decloned? It's kind of why I don't really want anyone to get decloned, because they did such a shit job in Brawl.

Only Ganondorf became shit. He's quite literally the worst character in Brawl (I still love him and main him though).

Falco turned out great though during his Luigification.

 

[Revven]

So characters just... what, balance themselves?

Every character inclusion, even the mainstay 12, take time to make happen, that's not a matter of debate.

Yeah but a "clone" doesn't take nearly as long to make as a completely unique character like Rosalina or Little Mac, you can't argue that.

How else was Sakurai able to fit 5 characters at the tail end of Melee's development if "clones" took awhile to make? I think that's proof enough on how much development they really need vs a unique character.

 

[Kyzon]

Clearly, the Fox version of this was the real origin of 20XX.

hng the broken reflectors in Smash 64 were so good.

I'm tempted to buy the game, but I can't find it for anything under 35 dollars D:

 

[theprodigy]

Only Ganondorf became shit. He's quite literally the worst character in Brawl (I still love him and main him though).

Falco turned out great though during his Luigification.

Ganondorf didn't get decloned...