That seems a bit more complicated than Garrett simply finishing off the dog to teach Ward a lesson about getting attached.
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. |OT| Tahiti is a Magical Place (to...Hey guys, I found it!)
- Thread starter TheOddOne
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That seems a bit more complicated than Garrett simply finishing off the dog to teach Ward a lesson about getting attached.
Alcoremortis
Member
I don't think it's as complicated as Garrett still taking on Ward after he failed the test. I mean, he wanted someone who would be able to infiltrate SHIELD for years and come out of it unattached and capable of killing the people he'd associated with. If Ward had completely failed, I think Garrett would have just shot him rather than the dog.
What? That would be a complete waste of a good shot and five years of investment. Garrett was dying and despite Ward's compassion, Ward was still the best bet Garrett had for an apprentice.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Garrett may have been more forgiving if Ward had killed the dog. I think the whole point of showing that is that Ward will definitely be betrayed by Garrett for his perceived "weakness."
Garrett still got a ton of mileage out of Ward and he didn't say anything about the dog because he knew he could continue to use Ward for years if he didn't bring it up. Fitz and Simmons were the ultimate test and once Garrett sees that Ward failed at that, it's probably over for them.
Garrett still got a ton of mileage out of Ward and he didn't say anything about the dog because he knew he could continue to use Ward for years if he didn't bring it up. Fitz and Simmons were the ultimate test and once Garrett sees that Ward failed at that, it's probably over for them.
Affeinvasion
Member
We're talking about a Ward who hasn't even set foot at a SHIELD facility yet. Garrett is still grooming him. The mental gymnastics you have to do to fill in the blanks of Ward goes back to shoot the dog after being shown to not do it is far more complicated than accepting that Garrett knew he wasn't going to be able to shoot the dog and use it later as a "teaching" moment psychological trigger. Garrett manipulates people.
Mental gymnastics? We see Ward shooting the rifle earlier in the episode. We have Garrett saying Ward has incredible hand eye coordination (incredible enough to shoot a moving target as small-ish as a dog from far away). We have a scene where Ward is reminiscing about the dog incident where right as the trigger is pulled in the flashback sequence, Ward himself pulls a lever in present time to "kill" FitzSimmons. And it's not huge mental gymnastics to assume that Garrett isn't deaf and can hear two different kinds of gun shots and him not being a complete retard to understand what that means.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I somehow feel Ward won't die taking a shot at redemption. More that his weakness will be exposed and unable to go back to Garret or Hydra he's going to take the Long Walk: self-exile in shame eventually becoming a free agent. Possibly showing up to help the team from time to time. But never allowed back in because of his body count and bad blood. Skye will never step into the same room with him.
Fury? Or the dog?
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
the dog is fury
Inception
Lone_Prodigy
Member
This is a pretty basic show. It's primetime TV for general audiences. The juxtaposition of the dog in the scope and Ward flushing Fitzsimmons shows that he does get attached so he has to do it at a distance or not facing them.
If Garrett did it, they'd show it, and he wouldn't believe Ward when he says he crossed them off.
Jest Chillin
Member
Showing Ward shooting the rifle shows us where his training is at that point and places a rifle in the scene. It's not set to make us think Ward's shooting because that could easily be accomplished by showing Ward shoot.
Again, there's no shot shown of him reconsidering. IF that's what they wanted to imply, they'd show him shouldering the rifle and then cut as the shot is made. Ward's hand eye coordination just shows how far his training has come at that point. It's already shown before that that Garrett is a great shot when he first returns to the forest.
That wouldn't be thought of as weak but as twisted. If Garrett doesn't have eyes on how exactly the whole situation plays out, the more likely assumption would be that the first shot was intended to make the dog run so that the second shot would be more difficult. Making it a game or sport. Garrett does not have feelings or empathy at that point in his life so he wouldn't assume there was a change of mind. Hell, emotionally and psychologically it makes no sense that someone would go from unable to shoot to able to shoot in the span of a few seconds without an outside force acting upon them.
To make the jump that Garrett "probably just heard both shots and assumed.." actually IS doing more mental gymnastics with the scene because it requires the viewer to come to a conclusion that they don't have the visual or audio information to come to. There's nothing there to support it in forshadow or straight forward information. Meanwhile there's plenty of forshadowing to support that Garrett is the one who has taken that shot throughout multiple episodes and very heavily throughout this single episode.
Firing a shot and abandoning the dog is quite similar to dropping Fitzsimmons off the plane at a low altitude. In both situations there's a chance at survival where making another choice would've doomed them for certain.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
If we really occam's razor this shit, it's Ward behind the gunsight. Because that's what the flashback was to. Ward was gonna shoot the dog, he didn't, so we think he'll save FitzSimmons. But then it turns out he's not saving them, and we cut back to the dog, in the gun's sights. It's a 1:1 parallel. Now if they aren't SHOWING who's behind that sight, the easiest assumption is that it's "obvious" who's behind it. Namely, it's the guy who's having a flashback, and who just pointed a gun at the dog, and who just decided to jettison FitzSimmons. If they wanted to say it was Garrett shooting the dog, they would have shown Garrett behind the gun. Instead, they showed nobody. The only thing we can reasonably infer from the information presented solely in that scene is that it's Ward.
The argument that since Garrett uses the same line on him he's holding something over his head is flawed. He wants FitzSimmons dead, he's not gonna use the same line that didn't result in Ward killing the dog to try and get him to kill his friends. To the contrary, he's using it to reinforce the fact that hey, Ward, kill these people just like you killed that dog. Remember, you are not weak.
Ward with a redemption arc is boring and predictable. Ward as conflicted, but still evil is interesting.
Agreed. Do not want.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yep, it's the best thing they could have done with him. I'm just really hoping he doesn't get offed next week, because he's the kind of character I want to see built up over the series due to his history with the team and Hydra.
I'm thinking he and Reina are going to escape together after Garrett gets taken out by the team and Fury and do their own thing, sometimes helping and sometimes hurting the team depending on the circumstances. She doesn't seem like she jives with Garrett's plans as much and was only in it for the research.
Red Arremer
Member
I want to note that I really liked the shoutout to original Deathlok's appearance in the books (1990).
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
No matter how grey he is, how do you redeem a man who willingly murdered multiple SHIELD agents including top brass, and assisted in the destruction of SHIELD, helped to free dozens (if not hundreds) of dangerous metahuman prisoners, and is currently working with a murderously insane terrorist organization?
Pai Pai Master
Banned
It's basically out of the realm of possibility. There have been a few things in this show that I've let slide because it wasn't a huge deal.
I don't think they'll attempt it but if they do find some way to "redeem" ward and bring him back to the team, that would be a dealbreaker. It's not like fuckin' DBZ with Vegeta. The guy's a sociopath.
Jest Chillin
Member
So you're suggesting, despite that particular flashback being moment by moment.. it suddenly jumps an unknown amount of time to allow Ward to stop crying, run over to his rifle, acquire the dog at a completely different angle than the direction the dog ran off in to then shoot him. It's also not a 1:1 Parallel in your example because Ward wasn't in a position to save Fitzsimmons. Last Ward had seen, Garrett was still alive and able to repair himself. There's also a plane full of Garretts men. Even if Ward was capable of taking all of them out himself, he couldn't do so while protecting Fitzsimmons.
Meanwhile throughout the entire episode Garrett is shown as teaching the ideal of trust no one or it will lead to your death and ALL of his lessons are taught the hard way. The logic that Ward is the one having the flashback, so it must be through his eyes is flawed because none of the flashback is shown through his eyes up to that point. It's his memory of the events but always an outside view of the scenes.
It's not about it being the same line. It's the constant references to Ward being weak. In a previous episode "Providence," Garrett tells Ward that since he knows Ward cares about her, to get the information without breaking his SHIELD cover. If she doesn't reveal it after 24 hours, he's to eliminate the team and bring Skye to Garrett. He also sends Deathlok to shadow Ward because he doesn't trust that Ward will actually bring Skye back. This supports the idea that Ward has a weakness for those he grows attached to. Earlier in Providence when talking about the team, Garrett also says "It would've been easier if I just gave you kill order in the first week" to which Ward replies, "But you didn't." Hell, right before he pulls the lever Fitz says "I know you care about us Ward!" and Ward whispers, "You're right. I do. It's a weakness." And he stares sadly at the compartment as it's ejected. Once again reaffirming that Ward's attachments have always been a weak point for him. He didn't get cold and resolved. He showed emotion, just as he did when he fired into the air to send the dog off running.
Garrett's repeating of the same lines throughout the flashback and in the present are meant to show how resolved he is. He's rigid and unchanging. His experience being abandoned in the field is the entirety of what he's become now. His attempt at forging Ward to be like him hasn't taken. Ward still has his "weakness" in those he cares for.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
garrett is his brother
Alcoremortis
Member
Ward isn't really giving FitzSimmons a chance, though. In fact, given that crate is going to sink to the bottom of the ocean, has a limited supply of oxygen, and may or may not be watertight, he's giving them a more prolonged death. He has no way of knowing they have a beacon thing with them and even if they were to get out of the crate before it sank, they're in the middle of the ocean and nobody knows they're out there. Their chance of surviving this is about as minimal as the dog's chance of outrunning a bullet.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
It was a confusing friendly fire incident in a dangerous situation while his subordinate's life was at stake.
Ward is just straight up pretending to be loyal and then murdering people.
Jest Chillin
Member
Well they have control of the door, so in theory they should be able to leave the container if they wanted to but, yes, it's a slim chance of survival. I imagine leaving a dog who's used to relying on it's master for food and water out in the wilderness is also a pretty slim chance to survive.
Alcoremortis
Member
That was Garrett's dog. Pretty sure it knew how to survive on its own. It had a better chance than Fitz and Simmons out in the middle of the ocean. Hypothermia/drowning in a few hours versus possible starvation in a few weeks.
Jest Chillin
Member
It's a trained retriever, not a wild dog. It wouldn't know how to survive out there. Though with nearby cabins there's a chance he could've come across other humans at some point. Still it's a slim chance in both instances.
RellyRell28
Banned
I'm just glad they didn't do the stupid thing and show FitzSimmons in the preview for the season finale
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
True, but let's be real. There is absolutely no chance they don't get rescued within the first 10 minutes of next week.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Fitz has the quarter walkie talkie he got from Tripp. The question is, did it get fried by the EMP?
You can not prove that and the situation was completely different (to say nothing of how Ward and Garrett were the ones to actually kill them).
Affeinvasion
Member
Darth Vader killed the Emperor. Was that not considered redemption on some level even though he murdered all those younglings a while back?
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Yeah but that's totally different, because when he was young and stupid he was totally manipulated by an older father-figure who offered to save him from his greatest fear and-
oh.
Wasn't he redeemed before we knew what he did?
It should or it's flimsy writing.
Could it be shielded?
Silver_DNA
Member
What if it's analog? Does that make a difference at all? Either way I've suspended my disbelief for less.
Affeinvasion
Member
He still murdered obi-wan and choked some dudes to death with magic. The prequels just added more murder.
Alcoremortis
Member
I kinda hope it's fried and Fitz has to fix it with the random crap in the crate. Just like MacGyver would'a done.
pants
Member
Yeah, most of the people in this show are grey. Skye although having a golden heart has been shown to not be scared to use criminal activity to further her cause, May would betray the confidence of her closest friend in the name of getting the job done, Coulson is willing to break into places and end peoples lives in order to save people he cares about. No one is ever black and white, and the thing I like most about this show is the vast spectrum of grey on display. Although both grey morally, you'd be hard pressed to cast Ward and Coulson as the same shade for example.
As I said before, a shield show should be exactly that, grey.
crimsonheadGCN
Banned
Wouldn't all of Triplett's equipement be fried when the EPM was used accidently near the beginning of the episode? I would assume that it is all shielded from the EPM charge.
Jest Chillin
Member
Not if it's double headed.
Pacific Rim taught me thats all the difference we need.
pants
Member
Let's just assume it's shielded by vibranium
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