So I'm guessing you are a pretty violent person?
Whoopi Goldberg under fire for saying men have the right to fight back
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
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So I'm guessing you are a pretty violent person?
The thing is, why would someone just suddenly come at you with a knife or a baseball bat? Maybe some robbers, but even in those situations it's better to just give them what they want (money, phone etc.) than start to shoot people (you never know, they might have guns of their own and if, say, you'd be with family or friends, things could just go down a bad path). And the thing about shooting people is, you'd have to carry a gun around and carrying a gun around is stupidity and pretty much never leads to anything good.
Other than some total lunatics and the robbers mentioned above, usually people are provoked into using knives & baseball bats. Again, it's better to try to get out of any & every threatening situation without any violence to escalate things, because usually violence just breeds more violence (you beat up that "annoyance" who is of "no threat" to you, then that guy gets the knife out of his/her pocket or goes to get that knife and comes back, maybe with friends).
No? What gives you that idea?
No one is saying you should have hit her. People are saying that you would have been in the right to hit her had you judged her to have been an adequate threat to require so, which she obviously wasn't.
Confrontations should ultimately be solved with the fewest punches thrown, no one is arguing otherwise, but the idea that it is never okay under any circumstances to hit a woman is harmful.
That you think it is ok to violently attack men?
Okay. I'll just stick to reading your tag. I'm not getting into that argument.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Good article
It doesn't do what you think it does though. It's not suggesting that Jay's reaction was "perpetuating a harmful sexist norm", but explaining why Solange's actions aren't doing that, and are tolerated while Jay-Z's would not if the situation was reversed.
It also criticizes exactly what you and Goldberg are doing. Criticizing the situation solely based on gender and ignoring context.
Thanks for sharing this
The article is shit precisely because it perpetuates a shitty norm, how did you not get that? The idea that men and women ought to be treated differently does exactly what that fool says physical confrontations do.
Kite
Member
A female from another unit blamed me for her bf getting kicked out of the Army for smoking weed. She came after me and I had to grab her wrists and physically shove her outside my room and locked the door while this madwoman tried to kick down my front door for a few minutes before giving up. Thankfully she was maybe 120 lbs and not very accurate with her kicks or I'd be missing a testicle or two. Apparently she tried to tell people I hit her cus of some nasty bruises on her wrists but was lucky and had plenty of witnesses who saw and heard the entire thing.
What sucks is that I had to pay for the damages to the door and is she was closer in strength and weight to me I might have had to be more serious and maybe be that asshole who hit a woman in self defense >.>
rokkerkory
Member
After a few hits? Yes right to defend himself.
haha what?No, I didn't say it was okay to violently attack men! Where did that come from?
Don't worry, I think I read your post right you implied that had it been a guy all other things being equal you would have done the same thing, right?
You just admitted that if some weak guy were to start assaulting you your response would be dramatically different from if a women were assaulting you, assuming they had the same physical strength. You dont take into account the damage that you could do to the guy but only think about dealing out retribution.
Hamster Plugin
Member
That's where you say it's OK to hit men. 2nd post responding to 1st here, of course.
I'm not wrong, though. Violence should be the absolute last resort and shooting people not an option at all. That you are so readily willing to shoot a person just isn't normal.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
The spins in this thread.
Instead of criticizing people for hitting women in situations like the one you were in, they're criticizing you based on the premise that if it was a guy, that had the same weight and physical strength as the female you held down, you would have hit him without thinking twice.
Which logically, isn't a wrong conclusion. The problem is that they're putting words in your mouth to get there and from there draw the conclusion that it is better to hit men and women equally, rather than try to convince people to not hit men in the same situations that they wouldn't hit women.
Pretty much this ^ ^ ^
I have. She wasn't drunk, she just wanted to prove she was some badass or something. She was around my size and weight (5'7"/120 ish lbs) and probably stronger than me since I don't lift. I had no problem fighting since she wanted to start shit. Fight ended in a draw, although technically I lost since I admitted defeat to end the fight. She only made the offer because her finger was about to be severed in my mouth.
Maintenance
Member
I agree with her.
That is exactly what I am arguing in this thread. I'm not saying you should hit a woman the same way you would a man(except under extenuating circumstances which considers life or death) I'm saying that you should treat weak men the same way you treat weak women: try to diffuse the situation without physically aggressive actions.
Nokagi said that he would not do this or take into account what harm he could do to someone who is physically weak.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
You're different than some of the other people I've been arguing with in this thread, who have gone so far to say that it would have been better if Jay-Z had hit Solange in this specific situation, than to react the way he did and "perpetuate sexist norms"
I don't know, it's hard to assess any situation. Depends on who the person is, what their frame of mind is, and how you are attacked. To be honest, Jay Z really held it together in that video. Solange was going buckwild trying to kick him with pointed heels.
Myself personally, I wouldn't have hit back, but if it's to protect a friend or someone else who can suffer injury, you're getting laid out. Doesn't matter if you're a guy or girl, you don't have the right to assault anyone.
Myself personally, I wouldn't have hit back, but if it's to protect a friend or someone else who can suffer injury, you're getting laid out. Doesn't matter if you're a guy or girl, you don't have the right to assault anyone.
No. I did not say it was OK to hit men. I said I personally would not strike a woman. I never said anything about men. The stuff about men was said by other people putting words into my mouth.I just didn't bother arguing about it which I guess makes you think I agreed with what was said.
Huh? You said I must be a violent person because I think it's okay to violently attack men. This is worded as if I think it's okay to go around attacking men which I don't . Anything I've said here was always about defense only. And I don't believe I ever brought up men.
At least you owned up to your loss.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Yup.
But people need to understand that hitting someone with a closed fist is very dangerous. People have died from getting their nose punched into their skull from a lucky wild superman punch. You dont need to be a boxer to inflict serious damage.
And the other thing is that it's just as dangerous for a man to hit another man. women usually have a smaller frame, but it's it's the most ignorant thing in the world to act like it's two different things to punch a woman and a man in the face.
Most people have only seen fights in the movies, but if you go to world star and you see (search for sharkeshia's dad) and you can see people who are who are untrained almost killing people with a single punch. The consequences are extreme and it's incredible stupid to be stuck in this mantra that "every guy needs an asskicking to call himself a real man".
POWERSPHERE
Member
Jay could have just grabbed her and subdued her if he didn't have a bodyguard to do it. Anyone of superior strength should understand their power in a situation and assess it accordingly. Some of you guys seem like you'd hit a kid in the face if they slapped you.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
Yeah, I did have a bit of a swerve of opinion in this thread. I did think that if jay-z hit Solange it would be fine, but I have reconsidered. I think that restraint probably would have been ok, but a straight up punch would have been way too much. I have come the other way around and realize that not hurting people should be the lesson here.
When you actually are in a situation like that though it is really hard to keep a level head sometimes. Your hormones literally go berserk. I would not praise someone for punching a woman/weak guy who is going off at them, but I wouldn't go as far as demonizing them either.
I do think that there should be education about this kind of stuff in school, because it is not always apparent to everyone.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's really weird to see so many loaded questions and attempts at traps in this thread. Do you actually care about the sexism, or do you just want to win Internet fights?
You are really going to go after me for this when you were conjecturing earlier in the thread that people arguing for Whoopi were fetishizing violence against women?
I hate to say it but you just sound really bitter. Maybe you need to take a break from the thread?
Extra Sauce
Member
The problem is that you are ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that most women are not physically equal to most men. I'm not saying men's bodies are better. They can't get pregnant, can't nourish a baby, have lower life expectancy, etc. But in terms of brute strength, males more often than not have the advantage.
Did Jay-Z get injured by Solange? No. Would Solange have gotten injured if Jay-Z hit back? I don't know but I'm glad we didn't find out.
Yes, everyone should just roll over to all threats, and everyone who gets threatened deserved it. :/
MisterGrey3000
Member
For the record, I don't think you should hit anybody, but...
Like many people in the thread have said, she's right.
If you hit someone, expect to get hit back. Grown women are adults, they should understand the consequences of attacking someone who is stronger than them.
However, JayZ did the right thing in that situation. A famous black rapper hitting a woman wouldn't go over to well with the general public.
:/
Our society thinks it's ok for a large man to go to town a significantly smaller man. I wouldn't be surprised if most people think it's ok for a man to hit a trans girl. :/
Especially since some people think they're crossdressers(You shouldn't hit crossdressers either.)
Like many people in the thread have said, she's right.
If you hit someone, expect to get hit back. Grown women are adults, they should understand the consequences of attacking someone who is stronger than them.
However, JayZ did the right thing in that situation. A famous black rapper hitting a woman wouldn't go over to well with the general public.
:/
Our society thinks it's ok for a large man to go to town a significantly smaller man. I wouldn't be surprised if most people think it's ok for a man to hit a trans girl. :/
Especially since some people think they're crossdressers(You shouldn't hit crossdressers either.)
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Well my question was sincere, but now I guess it's just rhetorical.
Some of you dudes sound like you're itching for excuses to hit women.
stufte
Member
Here's what I specifically said to you.
to which you replied:
Which is why people are on you about this. You say you'd hit the guy in a situation where hitting someone was necessary to escape but not a woman *because* she's a woman.
This is your opinion, and that's fine, but don't act like people were putting words in your mouth.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
No, it doesn't.
MisterGrey3000
Member
Yes, it does.
You've got plenty of men in the thread who've even admitted that they'd hit a significantly smaller man then themselves. :/
At any rate, I never argued that you guys were sexist. I said that you guys were following patriarchal norms, which does not mean that I believed that you though women were inferior, but I did believe that you guys would exhibit high aggression towards men.
Edit: I think I'm getting kind of bitter too, I'll take my leave now.
If you had read my other posts you would have realized I directly addressed your concern. The average man has both a height and weight advantage on the average women, this is a statement of fact and should be non controversial, however there is considerable overlap in height, weight, and fighting ability between the sexes. All I have said, is that equal threats should be dealt with equally. That a larger percentage of women are smaller and weaker than me than the percentage of men makes absolutely no difference, except that if I were to have a statistically significant number of altercations with men and women the average level of force required to diffuse the situation/subdue the assailant would be higher in the sample of male assailants.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I don't think it's that simple.
My observation is this: people who are aggressive often wins a physical altercation. The other person would really know how to defend themselves well to stop someone is completely going off the rails with the intent to inflict damage on another human.
In this circumstance I think both and women can be dangerous.
I think the traditional role is that men are more aggressive, and while they have a bigger frame than women on average, I think its the aggressiveness that causes the injury not being 4-5 inches taller.
Men comes in all shapes and sizes, just as women. We need to retire this idea that they not also capable. Because they are.
And we need to understand that all people, men and women are able to do horrible shit in extreme situations.
A smaller guy with a an average chin can easily get beat up by a woman is large, tall or just build strong. Example; Guy beats his girlfriend but she turns the table and attacks him back. Completely justified. Point being that she can hold her own even though she is not a krav maga expert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzGSRdTGgA
You are interpreting the situation incorrectly.
This is about justifying using physical violence as a defense against physical violence.
Are you really going to say the onus is on the reactor/victim to not fight back to prevent violence?
You clearly haven't read this thread. Do you want me to quote them for you?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm interested in this.
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