Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting
- Thread starter tehbible
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This is kind of what I'm getting at, actually.
Of course we know this already. We've had experience in dealing with people and we know that the only way to actually get better at such a thing is to go out of your way to actually try to talk to people.
Plenty of people who are lonely and such, however, do not know this. It's completely unreasonable to expect that those same people would suddenly figure out how to make friends when they have no friends to begin with. Even moreso considering it's something that becomes more and more difficult as you age.
Aesius
Member
I question this advice. A person that is part of the incel brigade are liable to get banned long before they get help.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Your post was anything but a parapraxis dude.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Ignoring the uber liberal comment, the below screen capped will give you an idea.
I have gone through it quite thoroughly and unless my memory is failing me, no. The rejections he faced are, as you say, all (again, unless I'm missing some) imagined slights against him, ranging from people looking at his friends and not him, to girls bullying him, to insecurities about his height. He regularly engages in activities with the hope of acquiring women, but repeatedly comments that he is too afraid to actually approach them, in fear of them feeling he is "worthless".
This is the first actual 'rejection', but even then it's not something that he ever stated:
then there's:
EDIT: I'm in the process of posting some highlighted versions of the manifesto (given that it's hard, making notes and taking relevent points made it easier for me to search for components) but he goes into such detail that there are a huge amount of pertinent areas, as, given the level of obsession, it seems quite clear that many, many events haunted him, regardless of how significant they were. I'll try and get a few examples of what his slights consist of when it's done.
Vermillion
Banned
I mean... it still is an insult. Not going away any time soon.
Damn... I read up on gun laws in California and to my understanding IF he were actually committed to a psychiatric hospital he would have been unable to buy a firearm.
The One Who Knocks
Member
If you don't mind it with some scribbles here (http://elliotmanifesto.imgur.com/) are some elements that I feel are important (and intend to use for responses regarding certain elements of his persona), but you must note that he writes in a manner that is hyper-obsessive to details, and as a result, there are still a very large amount of snippets which have an impact. If you want some of the more 'crazier' opinions, the "Age 21" and "Age 22" segments hold his more radical views.
EDIT: But I do agree with Aesius, if possible, you should try to read it lightly as while it is extremely disturbing, is (possibly unfortunate, as it helps provide him the fame he wished) quite interesting.
EDIT 2: I know you're banned at this stage, but, even so, I would really hope that you still consider reading the manifesto if you have an interest in the issue.
Cyber Caesar
Member
Ok GAF this is really sad...smh... No words...
What you describe sounds like a lot of internet age kids. And I think that's why he got away with being nuts for so long, because those types of mentalities are easily developed in secret due to the overwhelmingly desensitizing nature of the internet. It's the kind of shit you can't prepare for really. But I think if he was truly good at hiding these thoughts from the public and blending in just fine and so long as he wasn't actually diagnosed with any real mental illness (diagnosed) then nobody can be blamed but him. If however part of what I said wasn't true then the gun dealer is to blame.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I understand what you're saying, but to be fair, he was the one who defined his life and death that way.
I don't understand why the non-"lol shoulda got laid" idiot posts relating to the shared similar experience are being met with such horror and dismay. They're people talking about how they experienced similar emotions and were able to work through of them productively, something this guy was never able to even get close to consider doing. That's empathy, not sympathy. These patterns keep emerging year after year- and understanding what's going through someone's mind is important when trying to approach them and alter their trajectory.
I disagree. Its common for people to know what they need to do in order to improve and simply not do it. The reasons behind this are varied though - and many times, those reasons aren't to be found in a dating advice blog or something similar.
Listen, I'm going to give you some honest advice, that I'm stating with the best intentions: Women aren't going to connect with you, unless they feel like you can connect back. And that means being able to step outside your personal experiences and make an effort to understand theirs.
I get that being lonely is hard and feeling unwanted is hard, but being scared is hard too.
I'm going to guess you've never been on the receiving end of harassment from a man that's upset you didn't smile when you passed him on the street or angry that you won't give him your phone number. I'm going to guess that you've never been cornered in the supermarket or followed down the street by men who are upset you weren't paying enough attention to them. How often do you hold your car keys between your fingers, just in case when walking to your car at night?
I get that there's a part of you that (partially) relates to the killer. Maybe try to relate to women a little more, instead. I think you might be surprised at how positively people respond.
DoktorEvil
Banned
6 people were killed and you're concerned about the gun dealer that sold him a weapon before he was seeing shrinks?
I can't even...
AP has a story on the victims
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-25-15-34-15
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-25-15-34-15
CountAntonius
Member
We all know the biggest gun related problem in america is they are just too damn easy to get. They just make it so when the unstable dude who wants to kill everyone does act on it he's is that more lethal. These things don't only happen in america but in places like china they need to use knives. In America many times its done with a gun bought legally. Not sure how that doesn't worry people.
There is zero reason that someone can't do both.
Speaking as someone who has felt/been extremely lonely for the majority of their life, I strongly disagree with your statement.
It's hardly clear what you need to do or how you should improve as a person since nobody is telling you what you should do/you have too little experience with people to know what or who you should be.
This knowledge doesn't just pop into your head out of nowhere, it's something you have to learn.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
That's what she said.
Telephoto999
Member
Sorry if this was answered.... but this 135lb kid stabbed 3 men in his apartment?
How in the world did this happen?
How in the world did this happen?
CountAntonius
Member
They were sleep probably?
"instead" doesn't mean "in addition"
Devolution
Member
If you relate to the killer you need to do some deep introspection. He wasn't just lonely. He was a misogynistic creep who expected women to fall into his lap like his wealth and his car. He didn't want to work on himself and instead lashed out violently because he felt emasculated. But he wasn't emasculated by anyone but his own echo chamber.
Of course I never said that. I don't even know how you could come to that conclusion.
My point was that there is no need to spiral into depression because of rejection and be forever unhappy with your life because your ideal relationship didn't happen or didn't work out. That happens to a lot of people and it's not the end of the world. Plus there are plenty of very happy single people. For a lot of people, "a normal part of being alive" doesn't involve continuously seeking or expecting a sexual relationship.
Of course try if you want, but there are different ways to deal with the result. Relationship failure doesn't mean you have to be unhappy or turn into a sexually frustrated misogynistic obsessed psychopath.
and you learn by doing
CountAntonius
Member
The lack of doing is kinda the issue in the first place.
I agree with you that that is the answer but it's also the main hurdle to begin with.
Yes, and people are saying this in the context of "I experienced those emotions/went to a bad place/but I synthesized them and pulled out of them."
People are being honest. They're sharing brutally honest anecdotes about emotions they processed badly, feelings/beliefs they held that they regret. And then they're being told that they're "bad people" who need to fix themselves and who need to be quiet because they make people uncomfortable.
Look, it's pretty normal to feel lonely and struggle with relationships, but focusing on how much he relates to the killer...what good is that going to do him?
I used the word "instead," because switching his focus will help him relate better to others. Continuing to focus on the things he has in common with the killer, is only going to make him feel more isolated and alone.
We're ...'not' but its really because I'm adamantly refusing to acknowledge your chicken and egg and instead am firmly behind the idea that people need to practice certain things instead of just read up about them all day to further understand why they can't.
mhi
Member
This shouldn't be framed as a "gun law" "men-rights" "fedora" debate.
This, first and foremost, should be a mental illness issue and I hope, naively and as evidenced by this thread, that's what should come from it.
Nevertheless, people tend to rationalize based on themselves and their experiences.
This, first and foremost, should be a mental illness issue and I hope, naively and as evidenced by this thread, that's what should come from it.
Nevertheless, people tend to rationalize based on themselves and their experiences.
Most of the people who identified also said they got over it.
They already did their introspection.
Maybe you should ask how they turned things around?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
No, you're just not actually going anywhere. It reminds me of the people in reality show competitions who explain to judges all of their excuses, and the whole audience is watching them going "jesus, get it together, you're like one step away from being great, and you're doing this?"
Wow, brilliant insight. You got it all figured out.
This story sure brought the armchair psychoanalysts out of the woodwork.
Maybe. But there isn't really a shortcut to relating to humans. We all go through the same shit. At some point it's really hard to give concrete answers. There's no magic to it. The easiest way to get to know people is by being interested in them. Keri's response on the last page was spot-on. You're expecting people to just do all the work so you will feel better, but that's not how it works. You have to be interested, and interesting.
CountAntonius
Member
Heartbreaking.
My niece is going away to college this year and I just couldn't imagine the pain he must feel.
Vermillion
Banned
That's life though. Some people can get by without ever doing, but if you realize you're behind and you haven't gotten lucky yet, you just have to live with it and start doing. Who has a bigger investment in your success than you?
Okay - so tell me about all the social improvements that you can make by NOT talking to people? I'd love to hear it.
That speech was really hard to watch.
Sorry for contributing on derailing this thread. What I believe about this incident has been said here many times by other, but I want to make myself clear:
What did guy did is irrepressible and an action of a deranged individual with a twisted sense of self importance and pathological entitlement that, with the aggravating of women objectification in society, evolved into deep misogyny.
Is scary to think that the youtuber posters and bloggers that are supporting this guy actions are nothing but trolls. I want to believe that they are trolls, but is clear that there is a big sentiment of misogyny out there.
The MRM bloggers are that are placing the blame to the feminist movement and even women in general are dead wrong. Although I don't like the extremely cautious stance that many women have taken when interacting with strangers, it is the direct result of the constant sexual aggression directed towards them. The blame lies on the aggressors themselves and only them.
However, i believe that "creeper shaming" is a real issue. Of lesser importance than misogyny, but something that hits closer to me. Also, wanting human contacts and relationships (not only sexual) is a human need. Sorry If misunderstood some of the comments on the issue, but I take issue with people saying that is entitlement. Also, I realize that my personal isolation is results of my (in)actions and inadequacies, not from a flaw on others. But the general hostility to social incompetent (leave awkward) people doesn't help things. I would like a bit more empathy from this world. :/
What did guy did is irrepressible and an action of a deranged individual with a twisted sense of self importance and pathological entitlement that, with the aggravating of women objectification in society, evolved into deep misogyny.
Is scary to think that the youtuber posters and bloggers that are supporting this guy actions are nothing but trolls. I want to believe that they are trolls, but is clear that there is a big sentiment of misogyny out there.
The MRM bloggers are that are placing the blame to the feminist movement and even women in general are dead wrong. Although I don't like the extremely cautious stance that many women have taken when interacting with strangers, it is the direct result of the constant sexual aggression directed towards them. The blame lies on the aggressors themselves and only them.
However, i believe that "creeper shaming" is a real issue. Of lesser importance than misogyny, but something that hits closer to me. Also, wanting human contacts and relationships (not only sexual) is a human need. Sorry If misunderstood some of the comments on the issue, but I take issue with people saying that is entitlement. Also, I realize that my personal isolation is results of my (in)actions and inadequacies, not from a flaw on others. But the general hostility to social incompetent (leave awkward) people doesn't help things. I would like a bit more empathy from this world. :/
RockTurtle
Member
Well this guy was both interested and interesting
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I trust you only have the best intentions, but keep in mind you ended this long statement about the trouble women face by instead talking about yourself. Think about it.
I think he's pointing out how completely worthless that comment is to someone who suffers with social issues.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
This is now the Dating-Age Thread with grap3fruitman all over again.
Excuses and bad justifications to self are more worthless to a person, in my view.
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