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[DoktorEvil]

BB, PUA Hate, PUA aren't MRA specifically, though. MRA isn't about pick up or getting girls. And Bodybuilding.com is not an MRA site.

I disagree with the MRA approach, which is basically anti feminist, but pick up and MRA aren't the same things.

My mistake. Somewhere in this thread there was a whole argument framing those things together and I was really confused as to what his true motivations were.

Then there was a couple pages argument about misogyny and guys feeling like they're owed something, then girl-GAF came in to argue, and well... I really don't know wtf to think anymore except the guy was unstable and he had access to a gun after being on record with visiting shrinks.

People bringing their political agendas into this by associating what he did with MRA groups is scummy. It would be like asking to focus on Feminist groups if a mass murderer associated with Radfem circles.

If it was relevant to the murder, I'd think associating a female mass murderer with radical feminism circles if she mentions them in her manifesto and online footprint would be relevant.

 

[Moral Panic]

The manifesto early on is more matter of factly and it's easy to sympathize with his life early on as it's pretty route stuff. It's just later on when he starts to rage at the world does the manifest lose any sympathetic elements.

Since you actually read it, can I ask you do you think he was fabricating stuff? Maybe because it is so well written, but I actually believe it is as accurate depiction of his POV. I think If he was to make something up it would've been more extravagant and less specific. For the vast, vast majority of his life he doesn't talk about being bullied, despised or hated but rather he talks of hating others. He claims that when he saw couples he would get angry and try to start fights and he details the breakdown of his main friendship with James due to this. The part about listening to his sister having sex really sealed the deal for me. I don't think he made any bit of it up tbh, which makes it more disturbing.

The early life stuff still has him talking about being afraid of some neighbourhood girls but when he is forced to play with them he has fun. Everything really goes sour once he turns 13 though and the crazy really sets in. The part where he claims that his mother told him he could be a writer really kills me, due to the juxtaposition of the honest self analysis and the insanity of his bringing of everything back to his virginity.

 

[Garjon]

Stay classy Daily Mail:

http://i.imgur.com/iRPxGAm.png

Jesus Christ, any excuse to show teenage women in their paper.

This isn't the only UK paper to use this tragedy to demonise virgins either. It's like they are edited by sixth formers.

 

[Daemul]

Stay classy Daily Mail:

 

[Clockwork]

Correlation ≠ causation.

Misogyny was merely a symptom/result of his psychosis.

 

[entremet]

??????

The entire reason why he did this is because he hated women and felt that they should throw themselves at him just because he was rich and had a nice car. If the misogyny and racism to fuel his hatred for women and the men they date wasn't there, I doubt he would have been driven to murder.

Well I agree, but he also killed 4 men. His hate didn't know any bounds it seems.

 

[Brakke]

Correlation ≠ causation.

Misogyny was merely a symptom/result of his psychosis.

Misogyny is a description of the crime he set out to commit.

 

[Scrooged]

If it was relevant to the murder, I'd think associating a female mass murderer with radical feminism circles if she mentions them in her manifesto and online footprint would be relevant.

I think you misinterpreted what I said. Or are you claiming that all MRA groups are radical?

 

[andymcc]

a guy on my Facebook is saying the Rodger is very good actor and this is a false flag to get his guns taken away. he said the narrative was too literary in his manifesto. lmao

 

[Oersted]

Well I agree, but he also killed 4 men. His hate didn't know any bounds it seems.

Did you bother to look up why he hated men?

Correlation ≠ causation.

Misogyny was merely a symptom/result of his psychosis.

As much as I like armchair-analysation, can you somehow prove your claim?

 

[Stet]

Well I agree, but he also killed 4 men. His hate didn't know any bounds it seems.

Marc Lepine also shot 4 men, but the Montreal Massacre is memorialized every year as a misogynist crime as it rightfully should be.

 

[alfredofroylan]

a guy on my Facebook is saying the Rodger is very good actor and this is a false flag to get his guns taken away. he said the narrative was too literary in his manifesto. lmao

 

[Lambtron]

People bringing their political agendas into this by associating what he did with MRA groups is scummy. It would be like asking to focus on Feminist groups if a mass murderer associated with Radfem circles.

Correlation ≠ causation.

Misogyny was merely a symptom/result of his psychosis.

He literally said he wished he could starve all women to death. It is vital that we discuss his misogyny.

 

[Parch]

There's just an anger and frustration level when there's a history and trail of behavior that suggests this might have been preventable. Is there some sort of lesson that can be learned from this? Is there something society can do as prevention? I certainly think we should at least try.

Obviously we can't start blatant profiling, but at the very least we should try to discourage misogynistic attitudes and sites that perpetuate it. Availability of proper mental health treatment also needs to improve. Just sluffing it off as just another loony isn't going accomplish anything, and when there are levels of empathy for this psycho it starts to get a little disturbing.

So what the hell can we do about it? What needs to change? It's a little hard to accept "nothing" as the answer.

 

[Famassu]

Regarding his misogyny (and racism

Yes, they are crucial, but I don't think they can be considered even close to a primary (or even secondary) cause of these events. Without the misogyny and racism, he would probably still ended up killing people.

I can't really understand how you can say misogyny isn't really high up there. Maybe not a primary reason (that's obviously his mental health issues, not all of which have to do with his misogyny, necessarily). He clearly thinks women are men's playthings (you treat them nice and they give you sex) and that is perhaps his biggest source of resentment towards the society. He's (from a) rich(-ish family) & he (supposedly) acted "nice", so he thought women would automatically be interested in (fucking) him, no matter if there's any deeper connection or any sexual attraction at all. But there's not and his insecure yet narcissistic nature couldn't take that.

 

[Empty]

Stay classy Daily Mail:

disgusting

the angle of blaming it on a woman firstly, he had so much more going on that fucked him up (+ his manifesto is deeply unreliable given his many disorders)

but also the transparence of using it as an excuse to titillate with bikini pictures. which is awful in itself, but when tied to a tragedy intimately connected with the objectifying of women is just ugghhhh

 

[Clockwork]

As much as I like armchair-analysation, can you somehow prove your claim?

Prove? No. Can a likely hypothesis be made? Yes. Anyone who read his manifesto should be able to ascertain he had psychological issues prior to his gravitation to misogyny.

If he had anything else to feel as slighted about I get the impression that he would be just as obsessive about it.

He literally said he wished he could starve all women to death. It is vital that we discuss his misogyny.

It's really just one small piece of the bigger issues this guy had.

Even outside of his misogynistic tendencies he clearly had trouble with any form of rational thought.

 

[User 100115]

There's just an anger and frustration level when there's a history and trail of behavior that suggests this might have been preventable. Is there some sort of lesson that can be learned from this? Is there something society can do as prevention? I certainly think we should at least try.

Obviously we can't start blatant profiling, but at the very least we should try to discourage misogynistic attitudes and sites that perpetuate it. Availability of proper mental health treatment also needs to improve. Just sluffing it off as just another loony isn't going accomplish anything, and when there are levels of empathy for this psycho it starts to get a little disturbing.

So what the hell can we do about it? What needs to change? It's a little hard to accept "nothing" as the answer.

When people aren't even able to grasp the concept that misogyny and the way it's fostered online and in media could have been a root cause of this because it makes them confront some seriously uncomfortable realties, nothing is going to change. People are in denial and it's much easier to blame the phantom of mental illness because they can then wash their hands of it and call it a day.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

He literally said he wished he could starve all women to death. It is vital that we discuss his misogyny.

Its so bizarre. The guys writes a 140+ manifesto centered around his complete disrespect and hatred he has toward women and calling out his misogyny is being treated as some sort of reaching.

 

[BSsBrolly]

I remember a thread here about a roommate getting angry about others having sex... I hope the thread starter wasn't one of the roommates of this psycho.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Well I agree, but he also killed 4 men. His hate didn't know any bounds it seems.

As far as I know, he killed them because they were getting laid more than him, despite them being "pathetic nerds". It's a hate brought on by misogynistic attitudes and a sense of entitlement. This is different from when someone engages in acts of violence just because they have anger issues.

 

[Oersted]

When people aren't even able to grasp the concept that misogyny and the way it's fostered online and in media could have been a root cause of this because it makes them confront some seriously uncomfortable realties, nothing is going to change. People are in denial and it's much easier to blame the phantom of mental illness because they can then wash their hands of it and call it a day.

After the waves of empathy towards him, denial was probably the next logical step.

 

[Wazzy]

Its so bizarre. The guys writes a 140+ manifesto centered around his complete disrespect and hatred he has toward women and calling out his misogyny is being treated as some sort of reaching.

Bizarre indeed. It's actually really sad how people would rather focus on him being mentally ill rather than discuss his blatant misogyny and what warped his view of women to be so toxic in the first place.

 

[Brakke]

I remember a thread here about a roommate getting angry about others having sex... I hope the thread starter wasn't one of the roommates of this psycho.

I doubt it: there are a lot of men in the world bitter and angry that other people are having sex when they aren't.

That's why discussing fucked up misogyny in our culture is worthwhile.

 

[kirblar]

When people aren't even able to grasp the concept that misogyny and the way it's fostered online and in media could have been a root cause of this because it makes them confront some seriously uncomfortable realties, nothing is going to change. People are in denial and it's much easier to blame the phantom of mental illness because they can then wash their hands of it and call it a day.

Misogyny has not needed "the internet" to exist for millennia. He had mental issues. He was also a gigantic a-hole mysogynist. "The internet" did not create him. Yes, he may have found validation for his ideas there. You can find validation for any idea if you look hard enough. But I doubt anyone was actively telling him that he should be throwing drinks on attractive couples having fun.

It's totally appropriate to use this as an opportunity to talk about violence against women and misogyny. These are real and serious issues. But trying to pretend he wasn't a deeply f'd up person in need of severe mental health intervention in the process in order to protect his status as "the great evil" isn't necessary.

 

[Oersted]

Misogyny has not needed "the internet" to exist for millennia. He had mental issues. He was also a gigantic a-hole mysogynist. "The internet" did not create him. Yes, he may have found validation for his ideas there. You can find validation for any idea if you look hard enough. But I doubt anyone was actively telling him that he should be throwing drinks on attractive couples having fun.

It's totally appropriate to use this as an opportunity to talk about violence against women and misogyny. These are real and serious issues. But trying to pretend he wasn't a deeply f'd up person in need of severe mental health intervention in the process in order to protect his status as "the great evil" isn't necessary.

Said exactly noone.

 

[Clockwork]

People are in denial and it's much easier to blame the phantom of mental illness because they can then wash their hands of it and call it a day.

Phantom of mental illness? Are you trying to say he wasn't legitimately crazy?

I see it as a chicken/egg issue.

Some of you are trying to push this as strictly a misogyny issue but clearly this guy was a few cans short of a six pack before those issues ever manifested.

Your typical every day misogynist isn't going to go out and ruthlessly kill 7 people. Just like a racist isn't going to go out and kill whatever minority he hates. Now once you add batshit insane to the mix.....

It's totally appropriate to use this as an opportunity to talk about violence against women and misogyny. These are real and serious issues. But trying to pretend he wasn't a deeply f'd up person in need of severe mental health intervention in the process in order to protect his status as "the great evil" isn't necessary.

Pretty much this.

 

[CadetMahoney]

There are a lot of men in the world bitter and angry that other people are having sex when they aren't.

Pretty much, add a little batshit+guns and you've got a problem.

 

[Oersted]

Phantom of mental illness? Are you trying to say he wasn't legitimately crazy?

I see it as a chicken/egg issue.

Some of you are trying to push this as strictly a misogyny issue but clearly this guy was a few cans short of a six pack before those issues ever manifested.

Your typical every day misogynist isn't going to go out at ruthlessly kill 7 people. Just like a racist isn't going to go out and kill whatever minority he hates. Now once you add batshit insane to the mix.....




Pretty much this.

He was a mysogonist. He murdered people because of his mysogony. We are discussing that. And noone is stopping the mental health discussion.

 

[Brakke]

Phantom of mental illness? Are you trying to say he wasn't legitimately crazy?

I see it as a chicken/egg issue.

Some of you are trying to push this as strictly a misogyny issue but clearly this guy was a few cans short of a six pack before those issues ever manifested.

The way you're saying "mental illness" and then "batshit crazy" / joking euphemisms is why "mental illness" is a specter here. You clearly don't actually understand what mental illness means, you're appealing to stigmatizing language, you're treating it as somehow completely divorced from the rest of his experience as a human.

Your typical every day misogynist isn't going to go out at ruthlessly kill 7 people. Just like a racist isn't going to go out and kill whatever minority he hates. Now once you add batshit insane to the mix.....

This literally happens every day. People commit hate crimes.

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

When people aren't even able to grasp the concept that misogyny and the way it's fostered online and in media could have been a root cause of this because it makes them confront some seriously uncomfortable realties, nothing is going to change. People are in denial and it's much easier to blame the phantom of mental illness because they can then wash their hands of it and call it a day.

The way I interpret the above quote is that you believe someone who is not suffering from mental illness (hence, your usage of the phrase "phantom of mental illness") can take actions such as the killer in this instance due solely to misogyny fostered online and through the media, effectively being brainwashed from a normal person into what this person became. Is that a fair reading of what you intended?

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Phantom of mental illness? Are you trying to say he wasn't legitimately crazy?

I see it as a chicken/egg issue.

Some of you are trying to push this as strictly a misogyny issue but clearly this guy was a few cans short of a six pack before those issues ever manifested.

Your typical every day misogynist isn't going to go out and ruthlessly kill 7 people. Just like a racist isn't going to go out and kill whatever minority he hates. Now once you add batshit insane to the mix.....




Pretty much this.

He had mental illness, sure. That's not in debate here. What is in debate is that his misogyny drove him to violence. This wasn't your cut and dry case of just someone's anger driving them to murder innocent people. It wasn't his mental health issues alone that caused him to do this. Arguing that it is is avoiding the real problem.

 

[User 100115]

Phantom of mental illness? Are you trying to say he wasn't legitimately crazy?

I see it as a chicken/egg issue.

Some of you are trying to push this as strictly a misogyny issue but clearly this guy was a few cans short of a six pack before those issues ever manifested.

Your typical every day misogynist isn't going to go out and ruthlessly kill 7 people. Just like a racist isn't going to go out and kill whatever minority he hates. Now once you add batshit insane to the mix.....




Pretty much this.

No, I am saying that people seem to be desperate the shut down discussions about his actual motivations by hand waving 'mental illness, doesn't count' and focusing the conversation on autism or what have you. A lot of people have come in here claiming that discussions about his misogyny are about 'pushing a political agenda' and 'lots of people are mysoginistic they don't kill people'

As other people have pointed out, we only seem to discuss mental illness when it's a white male mass murderer. It's like trying to focus the entire conversation about the Boston Bomber on mental illness, not religious extremism.

The way I interpret the above quote is that you believe someone who is not suffering from mental illness (hence, your usage of the phrase "phantom of mental illness") can take actions such as the killer in this instance due solely to misogyny fostered online and through the media, effectively being brainwashed from a normal person into what this person became. Is that a fair reading of what you intended?

No it's not. I used the term phantom because people would rather cling to the idea that this guy was 'simply' crazy and that his views were a result of him being crazy, and not something a 'sane' person would would think. Which is bullshit considering all the support and sympathy he's getting.

 

[leadbelly]

When people aren't even able to grasp the concept that misogyny and the way it's fostered online and in media could have been a root cause of this because it makes them confront some seriously uncomfortable realties, nothing is going to change. People are in denial and it's much easier to blame the phantom of mental illness because they can then wash their hands of it and call it a day.

Not to argue either way, but aren't you kind of doing what you're claiming other people are doing?

You talk about the phantom of mental illness, as if like it is make believe and isn't a real illness. That's incredibly dismissive.

 

[Clockwork]

He had mental illness, sure. That's not in debate here. What is in debate is that his misogyny drove him to violence. This wasn't your cut and dry case of just someone's anger driving them to violence. It wasn't his mental health issues alone that causes him to do this. Arguing that it is is avoiding the real problem.

My belief is that he had the potential to do this against anyone he felt slighted against. It just so happened that sex/women became his obsession. Had it not been that it could have just as likely been something else.

The guy just wasn't wired right.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

??????

The entire reason why he did this is because he hated women and felt that they should throw themselves at him just because he was rich and had a nice car. If the misogyny and racism to fuel his hatred for women and the men they date wasn't there, I doubt he would have been driven to murder.

I think I agree with Squiddy, somewhat, in that the misogny was definitely a product of who he was, but I agree with you (and very much disagree with him) in that, given it was the form his issues manifested in and did so in such an extreme manner, and is terrifyingly not an uncommon view within our society (even if not taken to the extremes that he did), is equally as vital to consider/discuss (if not more so, as a result),

There are some key points which suggest that it is more. First, we have his insecurity about his height, stature, race, and his belief that he lacked any talents. He valued appearance above reality and in his mind, these made him different and made it impossible for him to fit in. In turn, he hated these people who were taller, and better-built than he was. This initial spite precedes any indication of misogny, yet is something that he constantly refers to throughout (blond hair is another trait he envies), and 'vexed' him, partly as it made him believe others were better than him (fueling his insecurity), while also later serving as fuel to his hatred of women (as he believed women were attracted to taller/better-built people because he was incapable of acquiring a partner). Initially, he could overlook this, as he desired to become an 'obnoxious jerk' by relieving himself of his own sense of identity by abandoning his own likes and identity to fit in with those around him who had attention, and were popular. He responded to any perceived embarassment with great fury, completely lacking a sense of perspective.

Eventually, as puberty began, the popular thing to do was to meet with 'pretty girls' and he hated his failure, and inability to do so, taking girls' apathy to him as a great insult, misinterpretting the reason for it as he disregarded his lack of effort, implied awkwardness, and spitefulness, for the 'status' of the 'alpha male'. From here, he focused continuously on his hatred from women and his blatantly extreme misogny developed further through bullying, perceived (yet not actual) rejection, isolation, spitefulness, envy, greed, hatred for authority/rules, hatred for the wealthy, insecurity, delusions of superiority (and I know this appears to contradict with insecurity, but he was simultaneously both, somehow), without reason. He was desperate to belong with anything, hating Catacylsm because it brought with it people who were popular and had lives outside of the game and had absolutely no sense of empathy, being sad about the death of his step-mother's father but being pleased because it meant she'd leave. He viewed any arguments as a competition to be won, which he did so by throwing a tantrum.

Now, of course, he was a misogynist, no doubt. He had a 'final solution' for women, he thought they should be caged, were 'mentally ill', drawn solely to status and were rejecting him in their refusal to hook-up with him, felt an entitlement to other women because of his status (and made get-rich-quick schemes believing getting richer was his only hope, as they'd never be attracted to him), constantly berated them as 'sluts' for having relationships with others, and viewed them solely for their sexual aspects. He objectified them. He felt robbed by women. He hated, and despised anybody with even an association to women. He didn't care for women as people (actually, come to think of it, he doesn't care for anybody as a person, only in how they relate to him). Ultimately, he murdered six people (I don't know if the roomates are included in this number as I've seen it presented in both manners) and wounded multiple others. While he was extreme, some of these disgusting attitudes are prevelant in society (the 'slut' women, and 'player' men is a particularly toxic and disgusting attitude).

The misogyny needs to be focused on. It is crucial, and central to him. It has just as much importance as the numerous underlying issues, but I think it would very much be too dismissive to consider it as the only thing. Such a spiteful person, who constantly believed he should have been the best, who felt a catharsis in driving to buy a lotto ticket which he had willed to be 'the one', who fantasized about flaying others, being the dictator of the world, being envied by all, recoiled to even the slightest embarassment unproportionally, was unable to relate to anyone, was completely self-centred, hated and fought against any rules, and saw everything as a slight against him (even simply not smiling at him was a grand injustice) was never going to have a happy life without severe intervention from an extremely young age, and given that he actually had psychiatric intervention repeatedly, I really don't know if anything could have been done. Were he not to focus his hatred on women, it could have been authority, it could have been those in the past who 'wronged him' for the crime of being popular/having friends, it could have been against the bullies, it could have been against those of different races (although he is racist already), it could have been against his friends, it could have been his parents, it could have simply been himself, it could have been anyone that he would blame for not being flawless, and the greatest person to ever live. In fact, he states as much, that he would get revenge on anybody who insulted him as he was a fighter, and even sought revenge on his friends, even if virtual, for long past apparent transgressions involving not inviting him over while they were playing at times (despite being open about it). Ultimately, however (as you are suggesting), it was against women. He was misogynistic, and he blamed women for all of his failings. We could speculate about anything that could have happened, but this is what did happen, and he reinforced his views through the internet, media, and historical reading, his flawed perception of events, and his spite. Underlying issues are important, certainly, but his misogyny is equally as important (particularly, as mentioned, because of the prominence), and it seems unwise to de-emphasize just how significant it was to him. EDIT: Also, since it's been noted, he was mentally ill, or had a personality disorder, or had something incredibly wrong with his perception of the world from a very young age, but he, ultimately, is one hundred percent culpable for what he has done, and the hatred he spewed. I don't think it's fair to state that acknowledgeing mental illness is suddenly hand-waving him of responsibility and shutting down all avenues of discussion (but there are, certainly and unfortunately, people who are doing that, this I can agree with).

EDIT 2: I've been quoted now, and the mistake will remain in them, but I've just realised the second link was another which was posted twice accidentally. This is what it should have been: http://i.imgur.com/gkYNtt8.png regarding his differences. I've editted it now, but just for anybody reading those quotes confused about the relevancy.

This is also relevant, regarding how he hated others being with people that weren't him: http://i.imgur.com/3Wacxqa.png but can't fit it naturally back into the post.

 

[SniperHunter]

he was totally fucked up, beyond any help. He held grudges for an insane amount of time, he was extremely racist, his obsession with blonde women is just off the charts

after reading bits of his manifesto, I think he was beyond any help. I wish the cops had searched his room when they showed up initially

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Not to argue either way, but aren't you kind of doing what you're claiming other people are doing?

You talk about the phantom of mental illness, as if like it is make believe and isn't a real illness. That's incredibly dismissive.

That's not what they're saying. They're referring to it as a phantom of a vague concept looming over and constantly overshadowing these kinds of events, even when the perpetrator here was a complete asshole who refused to listen to psychological therapy. They aren't saying mental illness doesn't exist. However, "mental illness" is not what created the idiot's hopelessly sexist AND racist attitude.

 

[User 100115]

Not to argue either way, but aren't you kind of doing what you're claiming other people are doing?

You talk about the phantom of mental illness, as if like it is make believe and isn't a real illness. That's incredibly dismissive.

I talk about the phantom of mental illness being used as a catch all term to excuse someone of their actions and pretend that was the sole factor in their motivations.


Edit: What Snacks said.

 

[Clockwork]

I think I agree with Squiddy, somewhat, in that the misogny was definitely a product of who he was, but I agree with you (and very much disagree with him) in that, given it was the form his issues manifested in and did so in such an extreme manner, and is terrifyingly not an uncommon view within our society (even if not taken to the extremes that he did), is equally as vital to consider/discuss (if not more so, as a result),

There are some key points which suggest that it is more. First, we have his insecurity about his height, stature, race, and his belief that he lacked any talents. He valued appearance above reality and in his mind, these made him different and made it impossible for him to fit in. In turn, he hated these people who were taller, and better-built than he was. This initial spite precedes any indication of misogny, yet is something that he constantly refers to throughout (blond hair is another trait he envies), and 'vexed' him, partly as it made him believe others were better than him (fueling his insecurity), while also later serving as fuel to his hatred of women (as he believed women were attracted to taller/better-built people because he was incapable of acquiring a partner). Initially, he could overlook this, as he desired to become an 'obnoxious jerk' by relieving himself of his own sense of identity by abandoning his own likes and identity to fit in with those around him who had attention, and were popular. He responded to any perceived embarassment with great fury, completely lacking a sense of perspective.

Eventually, as puberty began, the popular thing to do was to meet with 'pretty girls' and he hated his failure, and inability to do so, taking girls' apathy to him as a great insult, misinterpretting the reason for it as he disregarded his lack of effort, implied awkwardness, and spitefulness, for the 'status' of the 'alpha male'. From here, he focused continuously on his hatred from women and his blatantly extreme misogny developed further through bullying, perceived (yet not actual) rejection, isolation, spitefulness, envy, greed, hatred for authority/rules, hatred for the wealthy, insecurity, delusions of superiority (and I know this appears to contradict with insecurity, but he was simultaneously both, somehow), without reason. He was desperate to belong with anything, hating Catacylsm because it brought with it people who were popular and had lives outside of the game and had absolutely no sense of empathy, being sad about the death of his step-mother's father but being pleased because it meant she'd leave. He viewed any arguments as a competition to be won, which he did so by throwing a tantrum.

Now, of course, he was a misogynist, no doubt. He had a 'final solution' for women, he thought they should be caged, were 'mentally ill', drawn solely to status and were rejecting him in their refusal to hook-up with him, felt an entitlement to other women because of his status (and made get-rich-quick schemes believing getting richer was his only hope, as they'd never be attracted to him), constantly berated them as 'sluts' for having relationships with others, and viewed them solely for their sexual aspects. He objectified them. He felt robbed by women. He hated, and despised anybody with even an association to women. He didn't care for women as people (actually, come to think of it, he doesn't care for anybody as a person, only in how they relate to him). Ultimately, he murdered six people (I don't know if the roomates are included in this number as I've seen it presented in both manners) and wounded multiple others. While he was extreme, some of these disgusting attitudes are prevelant in society (the 'slut' women, and 'player' men is a particularly toxic and disgusting attitude).

The misogyny needs to be focused on. It is crucial, and central to him. It has just as much importance as the numerous underlying issues, but I think it would very much be too dismissive to consider it as the only thing. Such a spiteful person, who constantly believed he should have been the best, who felt a catharsis in driving to buy a lotto ticket which he had willed to be 'the one', who fantasized about flaying others, being the dictator of the world, being envied by all, recoiled to even the slightest embarassment unproportionally, was unable to relate to anyone, was completely self-centred, hated and fought against any rules, and saw everything as a slight against him (even simply not smiling at him was a grand injustice) was never going to have a happy life without severe intervention from an extremely young age, and given that he actually had psychiatric intervention repeatedly, I really don't know if anything could have been done. Were he not to focus his hatred on women, it could have been authority, it could have been those in the past who 'wronged him' for the crime of being popular/having friends, it could have been against the bullies, it could have been against those of different races (although he is racist already), it could have been against his friends, it could have been his parents, it could have simply been himself, it could have been anyone that he would blame for not being flawless, and the greatest person to ever live. In fact, he states as much, that he would get revenge on anybody who insulted him as he was a fighter, and even sought revenge on his friends, even if virtual, for long past apparent transgressions involving not inviting him over while they were playing at times (despite being open about it). Ultimately, however (as you are suggesting), it was against women. He was misogynistic, and he blamed women for all of his failings. We could speculate about anything that could have happened, but this is what did happen, and he reinforced his views through the internet, media, and historical reading, his flawed perception of events, and his spite. Underlying issues are important, certainly, but his misogyny is equally as important (particularly, as mentioned, because of the prominence), and it seems unwise to de-emphasize just how significant it was to him.

See, now a post like this actually makes sense because it takes into account his total being.

Had other posts been like this I would not have even felt the need to post or give my opinion because it's well rounded commentary on the issue.

I talk about the phantom of mental illness being used as a catch all term to excuse someone of their actions and pretend that was the sole factor in their motivations.

I don't think anyone is excusing his actions on the account of mental illness.

Heck, I don't think anyone is saying it was a sole factor in his his motivation to do what he did.

What I would say is that in this instance, I think that his mental illness was a highly contributory factor in his misogyny and had this illness not been present he would not have gone to the obsessive extremes he did.

 

[Infinite]

I talk about the phantom of mental illness being used as a catch all term to excuse someone of their actions and pretend that was the sole factor in their motivations.

Yeah. It just seems that some people are going "mental illness nothing to see here" which is troubling in itself.

 

[wildfire]

I find it kinda gross that so many people are trying to leverage this tragedy to make it some sort of teachable moment about misogyny. My Facebook feed to full of outrageously outraged feminist friends all weekend crying about how this is being covered. It reminds me of the Giffords shooting and how that was supposed to be indicative of the coarseness of our political discourse and was leveraged to try to marginalize political opponents.

While I don't like the attempts to deny other possibilities it's disingenuous to say this isn't a moment to reflect on misogyny. It was Lanza himself who wrote so much about hating women and made vlogs about it as well

People should push back against his assertions.

There's something uniquely ugly and opportunistic about trying to use the blood of innocents to gain a little power and/or attention for your pet political cause.

So the father of one of the victims shitting on Congress and the NRA is trying to only score political points? There's no grief or anguish being felt directly or indirectly (by virtue of past injustices that are resurfacing from the memory of these "feminists")?

Life is tragic and unfair and awful things happen. Most of the time there are no easy answers. There will always be extreme opinions and behavior in society and people saying outlandish things. The Rodgers of the world don't happen because these discussions exist, they happen because some very small amount of the population lack the emotional and mental ability to process them in a rational way.

Based on past discussions in this thread I'm sliding towards agreement with this but I'm wondering now if society influences the way people channel their anger and provide them with an excuse to lash out in irrational ways like this. In this case society created conditions that made him think it was acceptable to demonize women and different ethnic groups.

Let's mourn the victims and pray for their loved ones, be honest with our ourselves about how much of a little shit Rodger was but be just as honest with ourselves that the kid needed a lot of help and attention. These outliers need someone in their lives to help them see they are going down a very very bad path.

Sure he needed a lot of help but he does deserve scorn because he MURDERED people.

i've got a question for gun backers .....

when was the last one of these shooting sprees stopped by some joe public hero with a gun?


seems it's always the law enforcement guys ending things, or the killer shooting himself.

so what's the whole point with the we need guns to defend ourselves argument again?

Be mindful most of these gun shootings happen at schools which ban firearms.

Aside from the DC Sniper and this guy mass shootings have typically happened at locations where weapons access is limited or military bases.

Besides there are stories where people defend themselves from attackers with firearms, including children being the defenders unfortunately.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

My belief is that he had the potential to do this against anyone he felt slighted against. It just so happened that sex/women became his obsession. Had it not been that it could have just as likely been something else.

The guy just wasn't wired right.

But that's not what happened. The issue is that misogyny is real, it's scary, and it led to the deaths of seven people. It could have been something else, sure. But it wasn't. I don't see the point of focusing on the "what ifs" of the situation. All it does is avoid the real problems.

 

[ElFly]

While I don't like the attempts to deny other possibilities it's disingenuous to say this isn't a moment to reflect on misogyny. It was Lanza himself who wrote so much about hating women and made vlogs about it as well

People should push back against his assertions.



So the father of one of the victims shitting on Congress and the NRA is trying to only score political points? There's no grief or anguish being felt directly or indirectly (by virtue of past injustices that are resurfacing from the memory of these "feminists")?





Based on past discussions in this thread I'm sliding towards agreement with this but I'm wondering now if society influences the way people channel their anger and provide them with an excuse to lash out in irrational ways like this. In this case society created conditions that made him think it was acceptable to demonize women and different ethnic groups.






Sure he needed a lot of help but he does deserve scorn because he MURDERED people.



Be mindful most of these gun shootings happen at schools which ban firearms.

Aside from the DC Sniper and this guy mass shootings have typically happened at locations where weapons access is limited or military bases.

Besides there are stories where people defend themselves from attackers with firearms, including children being the defenders unfortunately.

If only the roommates he killed in their sleep had had guns they would still be alive!

 

[Dr.Acula]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...d-his-son-too-late-to-stop-calgary-stabbings/

This story reminds me of one that happened in Canada last month. A 22 yo male killed five people at a university party in Calgary. He wasn't a misogynist or anything (that I can gather), he went temporarily insane. Elliot Rodger's spree can be explained insofar that he offered up a narrative through which an explanation can be extrapolated. He hated women, therefore he killed, if only he didn't hate women this could have been avoided.

The Canadian I spoke about, Matthew de Grood, hasn't yet hinted at any possible motivation. If and when the crown prosecutors do offer a motivation, do we then revisit the crimes and build a narrative for them? Why do we do that? So we can feel comfortable, to add meaning to meaningless actions.

I think people are way too focused on this Elliot Rodger's hatred of women as being some kind of "cause" for this attack. Anders Behring Breivik killed people for political reasons on the face of it, but it's a little weird to say that Breivik killed because politicians didn't listen to him and he felt disenfranchised. That maybe if he participated in local politics or joined a model UN that he would have been fine. Maybe if he wasn't defeated in a student council election when he was 13 he would have been fine. He killed people because he was a disturbed, antisocial madman.

Breivik couldn't have been prevented merely by existing in a fascist state, Rodger could not have been prevented by a couple of dates, Grood couldn't have been prevented by whatever the public will decide his fatal flaw to be.

Norway's weapons culture is no the same as the US', and Grood had no gun. I don't think a solution lies there. All three men had varying amounts of support and access to mental Heath care, so that's not the answer either.

I am very pessimistic that "murder" is a solvable problem.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I think I agree with Squiddy, somewhat, in that the misogny was definitely a product of who he was, but I agree with you (and very much disagree with him) in that, given it was the form his issues manifested in and did so in such an extreme manner, and is terrifyingly not an uncommon view within our society (even if not taken to the extremes that he did), is equally as vital to consider/discuss (if not more so, as a result),

There are some key points which suggest that it is more. First, we have his insecurity about his height, stature, race, and his belief that he lacked any talents. He valued appearance above reality and in his mind, these made him different and made it impossible for him to fit in. In turn, he hated these people who were taller, and better-built than he was. This initial spite precedes any indication of misogny, yet is something that he constantly refers to throughout (blond hair is another trait he envies), and 'vexed' him, partly as it made him believe others were better than him (fueling his insecurity), while also later serving as fuel to his hatred of women (as he believed women were attracted to taller/better-built people because he was incapable of acquiring a partner). Initially, he could overlook this, as he desired to become an 'obnoxious jerk' by relieving himself of his own sense of identity by abandoning his own likes and identity to fit in with those around him who had attention, and were popular. He responded to any perceived embarassment with great fury, completely lacking a sense of perspective.

Eventually, as puberty began, the popular thing to do was to meet with 'pretty girls' and he hated his failure, and inability to do so, taking girls' apathy to him as a great insult, misinterpretting the reason for it as he disregarded his lack of effort, implied awkwardness, and spitefulness, for the 'status' of the 'alpha male'. From here, he focused continuously on his hatred from women and his blatantly extreme misogny developed further through bullying, perceived (yet not actual) rejection, isolation, spitefulness, envy, greed, hatred for authority/rules, hatred for the wealthy, insecurity, delusions of superiority (and I know this appears to contradict with insecurity, but he was simultaneously both, somehow), without reason. He was desperate to belong with anything, hating Catacylsm because it brought with it people who were popular and had lives outside of the game and had absolutely no sense of empathy, being sad about the death of his step-mother's father but being pleased because it meant she'd leave. He viewed any arguments as a competition to be won, which he did so by throwing a tantrum.

Now, of course, he was a misogynist, no doubt. He had a 'final solution' for women, he thought they should be caged, were 'mentally ill', drawn solely to status and were rejecting him in their refusal to hook-up with him, felt an entitlement to other women because of his status (and made get-rich-quick schemes believing getting richer was his only hope, as they'd never be attracted to him), constantly berated them as 'sluts' for having relationships with others, and viewed them solely for their sexual aspects. He objectified them. He felt robbed by women. He hated, and despised anybody with even an association to women. He didn't care for women as people (actually, come to think of it, he doesn't care for anybody as a person, only in how they relate to him). Ultimately, he murdered six people (I don't know if the roomates are included in this number as I've seen it presented in both manners) and wounded multiple others. While he was extreme, some of these disgusting attitudes are prevelant in society (the 'slut' women, and 'player' men is a particularly toxic and disgusting attitude).

The misogyny needs to be focused on. It is crucial, and central to him. It has just as much importance as the numerous underlying issues, but I think it would very much be too dismissive to consider it as the only thing. Such a spiteful person, who constantly believed he should have been the best, who felt a catharsis in driving to buy a lotto ticket which he had willed to be 'the one', who fantasized about flaying others, being the dictator of the world, being envied by all, recoiled to even the slightest embarassment unproportionally, was unable to relate to anyone, was completely self-centred, hated and fought against any rules, and saw everything as a slight against him (even simply not smiling at him was a grand injustice) was never going to have a happy life without severe intervention from an extremely young age, and given that he actually had psychiatric intervention repeatedly, I really don't know if anything could have been done. Were he not to focus his hatred on women, it could have been authority, it could have been those in the past who 'wronged him' for the crime of being popular/having friends, it could have been against the bullies, it could have been against those of different races (although he is racist already), it could have been against his friends, it could have been his parents, it could have simply been himself, it could have been anyone that he would blame for not being flawless, and the greatest person to ever live. In fact, he states as much, that he would get revenge on anybody who insulted him as he was a fighter, and even sought revenge on his friends, even if virtual, for long past apparent transgressions involving not inviting him over while they were playing at times (despite being open about it). Ultimately, however (as you are suggesting), it was against women. He was misogynistic, and he blamed women for all of his failings. We could speculate about anything that could have happened, but this is what did happen, and he reinforced his views through the internet, media, and historical reading, his flawed perception of events, and his spite. Underlying issues are important, certainly, but his misogyny is equally as important (particularly, as mentioned, because of the prominence), and it seems unwise to de-emphasize just how significant it was to him. EDIT: Also, since it's been noted, he was mentally ill, or had a personality disorder, or had something incredibly wrong with his perception of the world from a very young age, but he, ultimately, is one hundred percent culpable for what he has done, and the hatred he spewed. I don't think it's fair to state that acknowledgeing mental illness is suddenly hand-waving him of responsibility and shutting down all avenues of discussion (but there are, certainly and unfortunately, people who are doing that, this I can agree with).

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

[Wazzy]

My belief is that he had the potential to do this against anyone he felt slighted against. It just so happened that sex/women became his obsession. Had it not been that it could have just as likely been something else.

The guy just wasn't wired right.

And where exactly is your proof for this?

We need to stop dismissing his misogyny as something that was just due to metal illness. He was mentally ill and no one will deny that but you don't hold views as toxic as his towards women without reason.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

A big part of why he was filled with anger and confusion was because women didn't act like they should in his mind. He subscribed to the alpha and beta male nonsense (which is often mentioned on this very forum) and thought that women were flawed for not recognising him as an alpha. He had a nice car and dressed nicely after all so it was an injustice that women weren't flocking to him because of it.

He also had a lot of other problematic views about race and class but I think it's fair to say that his lack of success with women and his expectations of how they should they behave were the main thing that he obsessed about. He latched onto ideas that already existed, just because he took them to a place that 99% of people wouldn't doesn't mean they aren't a problem. Theres even a part in his manifesto where he sees the website puahate as definitive proof of the cruelty of women. These places are fucked up because people like him can feed off them and reinforce their views.

 

[Telephoto999]

I doubt it: there are a lot of men in the world bitter and angry that other people are having sex when they aren't.

That's why discussing fucked up misogyny in our culture is worthwhile.

Over half of neogaf falls into that first category.

 

[Unbounded]

And where exactly is your proof for this?

We need to stop dismissing his misogyny as something that was just due to metal illness. He was mentally ill and no one will deny that but you don't hold views as toxic as his towards women without reason.

Err, why can't the "reason behind his misogyny" be that "he was fucking insane" again? That's probably the most sensible reasoning for someone to go that far off of the deep end.