Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting

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"Ten dead in landslide. Plus, the year's best push pins!"
 
Sad part to me is the entire "cops were brought in to check the kid out before this happened because people were worried, and he was able to smooth talk his way out". I understand the woman / people-hating bit was a big part, but damn, the fact that people were worried, and they did call the cops, and the cops came, and they still couldn't do anything about it?

Oof. Just depressing as all get out.
 
White Man said:
...it really wouldn't have taken much effort to reword that into something less confrontational.
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Wouldn't be a standard conservative outrage piece unless it was unnecessarily confrontational.

I highly doubt he even wrote it. Someone over at the NRA probably penned something up, and got Joe the 'Plumber' to put his name on it because he still has some slight shred of credibility with the Tea Party types.
 
Stet said:
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"Ten dead in landslide. Plus, the year's best push pins!"
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Lmao. Though I've gotta say that I doubt it. The media doesn't seem to be talking about the gender-based aspect of the whole thing from what I hear. #yesallwomen seems like it'll come and go like every other hashtag movement so far. Besides, reports of school shootings happen so often these days - I imagine a lot of people are still tied up in the gun debate.
 
Vermillion said:
Lmao. Though I've gotta say that I doubt it. The media doesn't seem to be talking about the gender-based aspect of the whole thing from what I hear. #yesallwomen seems like it'll come and go like every other hashtag movement so far. Besides, reports of school shootings happen so often these days - I imagine a lot of people are still tied up in the gun debate.
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Plastering a hashtag on an argument is a good way to ensure that it becomes exponentially more visible and exponentially less coherent.
 
Random Painted HIghway said:
Calling out posters without quoting them is exceptionally passive aggressive.
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leadbelly's the only one that's had the stamina to make it this far. He's already been asked by like 3 people "so what's your point?" I didn't call anyone out because that's not anywhere near as important as recognizing that arguing about semantics was pointless here and just deflected from talking about gender issues, gun control, mental well-being, etc.
 
spekkeh said:
As much as I hate the Abrahamitic view on women and think that they feel justified in their actions based on scripture, I really don't think this hatred is a natural consequence of a society that's oppressive to women, in fact, if anything it's the other way around (religions oppressive to women are borne out of a hatred for them). In humanity, the woman chooses the mate. This makes the man weak, who, by other factors, is predetermined to strive for dominance, leading to frustration. An upset of the power balance, for instance by joining a group of violent male bandits (boko haram), amassing weapons (boko haram, Rodgers) or institutionalized religion (the west and middle east) gives the man control over the woman to 'regain and exact his dominance'.
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Honestly, this is the shit that needs to stop. This notion that women hold all the cards and men are the victims of women's fancy. This is the type of small shit I see everyday online that is a part of the problem.
 
someday said:
Honestly, this is the shit that needs to stop. This notion that women hold all the cards and men are the victims of women's fancy. This is the type of small shit I see everyday online that is a part of the problem.
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Definitely. It's a destructive attitude.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
leadbelly's the only one that's had the stamina to make it this far. He's already been asked by like 3 people "so what's your point?" I didn't call anyone out because that's not anywhere near as important as recognizing that arguing about semantics was pointless here and just deflected from talking about gender issues, gun control, mental well-being, etc.
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It would help if you actually discussed those topics instead of simply posting 1-2 sentences every now and again either telling people they're wrong or stating that the thread is talking about the wrong thing.
 
kirblar said:
It would help if you actually discussed those topics instead of simply posting 1-2 sentences every now and again either telling people they're wrong or stating that the thread is talking about the wrong thing.
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I did for almost the entire afternoon yesterday. You responded to some of them. Don't try this.

Catching up on this has literally been reading a lot of people argue with leadbelly over semantics. That discussion seems bonkers to me in the face of a tragedy with a guy who wrote hundreds of pages about killing or controlling women.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I did for almost the entire afternoon yesterday. You responded to some of them. Don't try this.

Catching up on this has literally been reading a lot of people argue with leadbelly over semantics. That discussion seems bonkers to me in the face of a tragedy with a guy who wrote hundreds of pages about killing or controlling women.
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Anything related to trying to understand the thought processes that led to those misogynistic views developing seems to be bonkers to you.
 
kirblar said:
Anything related to trying to understand the thought processes that led to those misogynistic views developing seems to be bonkers to you.
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You're putting words in my mouth. There was a long, sincere discussion in this thread discussing whether this was legitimate misogyny or not. I find that discussion awkward and ignorant. It doesn't imply anything about what you're trying to say about how I feel, and I'm not really understanding why you're trying this with me anyway.
 
Pau said:
Because women who are not traditionally attractive are invisible and so don't really count. And so, men never say no to "women."
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Wait, women have a say in whether I get to fuck them? Waaa I'm powerless how dare they have such power over me :(

And it's irresponsible to make a connection between this attitude and the attitude of Elliot Rodger?
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
You're putting words in my mouth. There was a long, sincere discussion in this thread discussing whether this was legitimate misogyny or not. I find that discussion awkward and ignorant. It doesn't imply anything about what you're trying to say about how I feel, and I'm not really understanding why you're trying this with me anyway.
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The only way to confront ignorance is to talk to it and confront it. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Discussing things with those who know less instead of simply yelling at them is a good thing. (Within reason.) You may not have the patience for it, but others do. Sincerity is about the best thing you could ask for.
 
APF said:
How do women choose the mates again? Why is it not a mutual discussion?
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When you look at mating as a process and zoom out so as to look at all creatures, a lot of animal interactions follow the structure of the male being the one that approaches while the female of a species get to choose their mate. Male peacocks have their beautiful plumes, displays of strength in various creatures, etc There are animal examples where it ends up being the reverse but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Of course, this doesn't really apply directly to humans because of our consciousness but it's kind of interesting how it's affected humanity up until only recently. By recently, I mean in the long scope of humanity, not society.

I haven't been watching the coverage of this as heavily as others but it feels like Rodgers was just a pot waiting to overflow in general. It seemed like anything would've become the target of his obsession and it just turned out to be women and sex. Though, as I said, I haven't really looked deeply into this.
 
kirblar said:
The only way to confront ignorance is to talk to it and confront it. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Discussing things with those who know less instead of simply yelling at them is a good thing. (Within reason.) You may not have the patience for it, but others do. Sincerity is about the best thing you could ask for.
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When have I yelled at anyone? I don't think you're reading the same things others are seeing.
 
APF said:
Wait, women have a say in whether I get to fuck them? Waaa I'm powerless how dare they have such power over me :(

And it's irresponsible to make a connection between this attitude and the attitude of Elliot Rodger?
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Thinking of sex as a way to assert dominance or power over someone is incredibly destructive and seems to be too common of a view.
 
someday said:
Honestly, this is the shit that needs to stop. This notion that women hold all the cards and men are the victims of women's fancy. This is the type of small shit I see everyday online that is a part of the problem.
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Seriously, that quote just broke my heart. It sucks that guys think like this. Sucks that they head off into the world thinking that we view them as playthings.
 
APF said:
How do women choose the mates again? Why is it not a mutual discussion?
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By the law of evolution, men will smile at women (alternatively, men will swipe right on the Tinder). If a woman is interested, she will drop everything and open the gate to sex. There, the guy can fulfill his biological imperative and not resort to murder.

In the case where a girl does not open the gate (or swipes left), the men may sometimes grab the nearest liquid and throw it at the girl as a formal gesture that she was a slut anyway. It's how nature has worked for millions of years.
 
Shouta said:
When you look at mating as a process and zoom out so as to look at all creatures, a lot of animal interactions follow the structure of the male being the one that approaches while the female of a species get to choose their mate. Male peacocks have their beautiful plumes, displays of strength in various creatures, etc There are animal examples where it ends up being the reverse but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Of course, this doesn't really apply directly to humans because of our consciousness but it's kind of interesting how it's affected humanity up until only recently. By recently, I mean in the long scope of humanity, not society.
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But those male animals get to choose who they approach. People seem to ignore that.
 
Pau said:
But those male animals get to choose who they approach. People seem to ignore that.
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Haven't you been to the Tinder thread? The pro-tip is to swipe right on everybody, and then ignore if a fat girl answers your dating distress beacon. But that's not being selective, okay? Men are hardwired to do things. It's literally just men running on evolutionary autopilot.
 
kirblar said:
You come back into the thread after a hiatus and the first thing you do is talk about how crappy the discussion on the last ten pages was.
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I felt the analogy to the "legitimate rape" comment Todd Akin made last year was accurate. People were arguing about whether this was legitimate misogyny or not. It was weird considering the evidence.
 
Pau said:
But those male animals get to choose who they approach. People seem to ignore that.
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Correct, but who the male animal chooses is ultimately a bit irrelevant because the female makes the last choice. Remember, it's the mating process and the choice in the situation that matters the most is the one that results in a successful pairing.

It's hard or impossible to apply to humans because of higher intelligence but it's not an incorrect observation from a general standpoint.
 
Karkador said:
By the law of evolution, men will smile at women (alternatively, men will swipe right on the Tinder). If a woman is interested, she will drop everything and open the gate to sex. There, the guy can fulfill his biological imperative and not resort to murder.

In the case where a girl does not open the gate (or swipes left), the men may sometimes grab the nearest liquid and throw it at the girl as a formal gesture that she was a slut anyway. It's how nature has worked for millions of years.
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Lol. I needed the laugh after reading almost every post in this thread.
 
kirblar said:
You come back into the thread after a hiatus and the first thing you do is talk about how crappy the discussion on the last ten pages was.
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The discussion at this point is still a desperate attempt by a select few to "understand"/sympathize and almost justify the killer's misogyny in a way that isn't at all normal.
 
Shouta said:
Correct, but who the male animal chooses is ultimately a bit irrelevant because the female makes the last choice. Remember, it's the mating process and the choice in the situation that matters the most is the one that results in a successful pairing.

It's hard or impossible to apply to humans because of higher intelligence but it's not an incorrect observation from a general standpoint.
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Some male animals like baboons also just beat the crap out of the female before deciding to mate. Primate documentaries can get pretty disturbing.
 
This was an interesting read from someone named Lenny Shaw who spent a little bit of time talking with Elliot Rodger.

https://www.facebook.com/lenny.shaw.5/posts/10203423576165066?fref=nf

First post here so I'm not sure I did that link correctly. Sorry.


I am now ready to speak about what my status of yesterday was referring to and the personal tragedy that involved two extremely close friends of mine.

Starting point: I personally knew Elliot Rodger, the gunman of the Isla Vista massacre.

I knew him because he was a close friend of my two friends. I will NOT identify my two friends for reasons that may be obvious already, but that i will address.( As references to my two friends are unwieldy I will instead refer them as "Wesley" and "Kevin" , not their real names) Wesley and Kevin are two former students of mine ( In the interest of full accuracy, Wesley was my student, and Kevin is his best friend) As they are now adults, I have enjoyed a rewarding friendship with them both. Elliot was exactly their age and was a friend to them both as far back as childhood.

I will not tell every detail here, because it could easily lead to the compromising of the privacy and interests of Wesley and Kevin, and their welfare and well being is my chief concern. Any comments which even indirectly could lead to their identification will be quickly deleted.

Why say anything at all? Because people who follow my Facebook site know that I am a big event junkie, that I would be all over the place on the Eliot Rodger story anyway even if I had NO personal connection to it.

And at the risk of coming across as self-indulgent, I AM a writer, and the personal connection that I have with this story has generated the most surreal 24 hrs of my lifetime to date, and I feel compelled to share. But nothing is more important than the well-being of my friends Wesley and Kevin.
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I met Eliot Rodger in 2009. I may have seen him seven or eight times....ten at the most. He was in my former home in Santa Monica and he was once in my car. Until just two months ago, he was also my Facebook friend, until I blocked him for making very disturbing comments which, while not hinting of violence, were nevertheless quite extreme.

From the beginning he came across to me as shy and awkward. But quite soon, I did find him a little more disturbing than I was comfortable with. There was much more here than "awkward'.

I will quickly dispatch with what I heard him say over the occasions in which I conversed with him:

As has been depicted in the media, Elliot was in fact obsessed with the feeling that young women paid him little attention. At times, his personal views enlarged into his warped vision of a "perfect" society that he would desire, or even rule, in which women would be totally subservient to men. The 10 or 15 minutes in which I was alone with him, at a First Friday street event in Abbot Kinney in Venice in 2009, he quite clearly went on about his belief in the inferiority of women, and his intolerance of anyone who disagreed with him.

As a former teacher of adolescents, I had heard it all, but I increasingly felt that this was not just a case of the wild musings of youth. This kid had REAL issues.

In another context, some of his references would almost be comical. He modeled himself, on Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars. Not even Darth Vader, but Emperor Palpatine.

When Wesley and Kevin half jokingly suggested that Elliot just pay for sex and get it over with, Elliot answered that a hooker would not be acceptable. That any woman, even a hooker, would have to love him as well as go through the motions of sex

We guard against thinking that any of us may know a potential mass killer, but years ago I did comment to both Wesley and Kevin that of all the people that I ever met in my life, he came closest to fitting the profile

Although I still did not realistically fear violence, I became convinced that Elliot was not sane, and I told Wesley and Kevin that I did not want to spend any more time with him. The reason was simple: You cannot have a decent conversation with a madman. But, he was their old friend so I respected and supported their interest in him.

I did see Elliot in passing with the two of them ( again I had decided not to *hang* out with them when Elliot was around). The last time that I saw Elliot was last summer at the Pavilions Starbucks in Point Dume in Malibu. He and I exchanged brief pleasantries for just a couple of minutes and that was all.

Elliot was my Facebook friend until just March of this year. I unfriended and blocked him when he made a statement on my wall that "Teenagers who fornicate should get the death penalty" At that point, I was not even comfortable continuing even the minor status of his being one my FB friends
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Just a few words onthe speculations that I have heard in the media about Elliot Rodger:

Well-intenioned commentators have have referenced and if may be blunt- projected, cultural and political analysis of what this tortured young soul was all about. He was "Self-Entitiled", a "Whiner" , obviously "Misogynist", somewhat "Racist", an "Aspie"...on and on...... It is the hatred of women ....It is his access to guns... It is Wealthy Privileged Kids.... It is Video Games.... He was too "Horny".... He was too "Prudish"

No. Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. Profoundly so. That is, BY FAR, the takeaway that the world should have about this tragic man.

Sure he expressed that mental illness with extreme misogyny. But don't try to look into what made Elliot Rodger do what he did in the history of sexism. Find it in the history of mental illness. Of course his "views" on women were depraved and repulsive in the extreme. But they were not "views".... they were *ravings*. Ever since that first detailed conversation that I had with him that night on Abbot Kinney, I knew that there was simply NO point in trying to act as his teacher or mentor. What he needed was a DOCTOR.

And yes.... he creeped me out.
_____________________________________________________________

Finally, just a few words on the bizarre experience of being so personally close to a major news story - and in particular how that is impacting Wesley and Kevin, my two young friends.

Since yesterday morning, both of these gentlemen's lives have been turned upside down. They have been getting phone calls, texts, tweets, Facebook messages, e-mail, and even personal visits to their home and workplace from media, large and small, from all over the world. How did the media find them?? Let's just make this simple: Welcome to the 21st Century.....

The Circus Century

They have been getting some hate e-mail, and hate tweets ( "Your friend was a psycho killer..') ... ( People looked at Elliot's FB....saw his friend list...BINGO...I would be getting the same thing had I not blocked him)

What is more surprising and amazing was the fact that total strangers, not filled with hate, but with just curiosity, have made friend requests of Wesley and Kevin, wanting to talk to then about Elliot. WTF?!
___________________________________________________________

To conclude, I do not plan to post any casual links on this news story, like I would on most other news stories, including this one had I not a personal connection. The personal dimension that I have with the Eliot Rodger story has forever blown away any possible other association that I could make with it.

Time permitting, I do plan to post pictures that I have of my Late Spring Altar .
And my regular Facebook scheduled programming, other than the Elliot Rodger story, will return no later than Tuesday

Please pray for the victims of this senseless tragedy. And for the recovery of the wounded. Body and soul

Peace...
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Shouta said:
When you look at mating as a process and zoom out so as to look at all creatures, a lot of animal interactions follow the structure of the male being the one that approaches while the female of a species get to choose their mate. Male peacocks have their beautiful plumes, displays of strength in various creatures, etc There are animal examples where it ends up being the reverse but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Of course, this doesn't really apply directly to humans because of our consciousness but it's kind of interesting how it's affected humanity up until only recently. By recently, I mean in the long scope of humanity, not society.
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I also don't think it jives with the concept of men only wanting to hook-up with supermodels, finding-out they have a lot of competition vying for the same, and whining that this means they're unjustly disempowered by women.
 
Carcetti said:
Some male animals like baboons also just beat the crap out of the female before deciding to mate. Primate documentaries can get pretty disturbing.
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Yeah, it's quite disturbing especially considering primates are the closest species of animal to humans. =/ That's a whole other discussion though.

APF said:
I also don't think it jives with the concept of men only wanting to hook-up with supermodels, finding-out they have a lot of competition vying for the same, and whining that this means they're unjustly disempowered by women.
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Didn't say it did. Just pointing out that the general view isn't entirely incorrect, at least from you look at the mating process amongst all creatures.
 
anaron said:
The discussion at this point is still a desperate attempt by a select few to "understand"/sympathize and almost justify the killer's misogyny in a way that isn't at all normal.
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Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy is really, really weird to me. When people discuss what may have led him to hold those views, they're not trying to say he was correct to do so. When they discuss how his mental illness may have led to an echo chamber of hatred he was unable to break free of, they're not saying that this excuses what he did. "What led this guy from newborn baby to hate-filled miosgynist?" is a question worth asking and discussing.
 
kirblar said:
Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy is really, really weird to me. When people discuss what may have led him to hold those views, they're not trying to say he was correct to do so. When they discuss how his mental illness may have led to an echo chamber of hatred he was unable to break free of, they're not saying that this excuses what he did.
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I don't think anyone is "Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy."

I think people are rightfully disturbed at the lengths people are going to in this specific incident to understand this dude in a way that isn't common in most cases. The projection and "well, it is hard to be a lonely non-sex having male" is so selfish and inappropriate, especially when this killer was so clearly rotten down to his core.
 
In less depressing animal factoid news...

Among social animals, inequality is a fact of life. Millions of ants do all the work for one reproducing queen. Troops of chimps form male-dominated hierarchies, males bossing females around and forming a pecking order with one highly aggressive alpha male on top. Poorly paid migrant workers pick grapes for $200-dollar bottles of wine enjoyed by royalty and corporate executives.

But sometimes the top dog gets toppled, inequality diminishes, and equality prevails. Looking at species other than our own shows that inequality (the subject of a special issue in Science this week) may not be inevitable. These animals provide glimpses of how humans got the way we are and what our potential may be for equality.

[...]

Among northern muriqui monkeys in the Brazilian rainforest, both sexes are co-equals and there’s little conflict. Karen Strier started studying this species in 1982 after conducting field research on baboons, and she fully expected that higher-ranking monkeys would get better food, have more friends and family, and have more reproductive success. But she observed no spats over food, even though males hung out close to one another, and she was shocked to see that when a female was ready to mate, the males waited patiently in a line for their turn to copulate. No particular male got to go first, and a study of 22 youngsters showed that 13 different males had become fathers.

Over the past 30 years, Strier, a primatologist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, has expanded the work to include multiple groups of muriquis, and the population at her study site has soared from 50 to 350 individuals in part because of protection from hunting and habitat loss and in part because for decades there have been many females born who have in turn reproduced. “Yet the low rates of aggression and absence of consistent [hierarchal] patterns have persisted despite the greater potential for competition,” she says.

How have these monkeys bucked the trend? “Having two sexes starts the whole game of inequality, especially in mammals,” says Hohmann. Males tend to evolve to attain larger sizes to dominate females and other males, but muriqui males and females are the same size. Strier thinks size differences are constrained by the need to be fast and agile as the monkeys hop among tree branches in search of fruit. This species also eats leaves, which are readily available rather than concentrated in certain locations, so females spread out more. Males are likely to be related because they stay with their natal group. (Females are the ones that disperse when they grow up.) Males work together to keep track of which females are ready to mate and to make sure males from other groups stay away. There’s plenty of food to go around, so the monkeys don’t fuss much over who is eating what.

Strier and her colleagues have found that males tend to associate with a large number of other males and that females develop a few close friendships. But when females forage, they tend to avoid those close friends, possibly to avoid conflict, Strier notes.

Muriquis provide an example of a peaceful, alternative way of life, she points out. “Just knowing that such alternatives are possible should give us humans something to which we can aspire.” If animals can work things out equitably, then so should humans, and perhaps muriquis may be an even better role models than bonobos.
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Let's face it the people who talk all this shit about male rejection have an extremely narrow definition of what a woman is and frankly just don't fucking talk to them otherwise they wouldn't act like such special snowflakes when it comes to not getting the girl.
 
kirblar said:
Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy is really, really weird to me. When people discuss what may have led him to hold those views, they're not trying to say he was correct to do so. When they discuss how his mental illness may have led to an echo chamber of hatred he was unable to break free of, they're not saying that this excuses what he did. "What led this guy from newborn baby to hate-filled miosgynist?" is a question worth asking and discussing.
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The opposing view to yours is mostly coming from people watching how the rich murderer is called misunderstood while others are immediately judged as criminals. There is also concern at watching some people match their own feelings to the killer's, which is rooted in not understanding that those basic themes of loneliness and insecurity are universal and we all understand them. We don't need them explained in depth in a way that sort of dismisses the actual unique problems going on. That's why there have been small tangents in this thread about calling out people who are trying to make the story about them rather than the victims or the killer.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
leadbelly's the only one that's had the stamina to make it this far. He's already been asked by like 3 people "so what's your point?" I didn't call anyone out because that's not anywhere near as important as recognizing that arguing about semantics was pointless here and just deflected from talking about gender issues, gun control, mental well-being, etc.
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I find it to be more conducive to a discussion to actually respond to points of disagreement rather than to just accuse unnamed posters of certain behaviors. Don't you want the people you are directing these statements at to be aware of the consequences of their statements? You aren't the only one who has argued like this in this thread and it is just perplexing to me.
 
Father of one of the victims does not give a fuck about your useless sympathy

“I don’t care about your sympathy. I don’t give a s--- that you feel sorry for me,” Richard Martinez said during an extensive interview, his face flushed as tears rolled down his face. “Get to work and do something. I’ll tell the president the same thing if he calls me. Getting a call from a politician doesn’t impress me.”
Saying “we are all to blame” for the death of his 20-year-old son, Martinez urged the public join him in demanding “immediate action” from members of Congress and President Obama to curb gun violence by passing stricter gun-control laws.
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anaron said:
I don't think anyone is "Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy."

I think people are rightfully disturbed at the lengths people are going to in this specific incident to understand this dude in a way that isn't common in most cases. The projection and "well, it is hard to be a lonely non-sex having male" is so selfish and inappropriate when this killer was rotten down to his core.
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But misogyny is common. Distressingly so. It's a huge ubiquitous problem across all nationalities and cultures. You may find it disturbing that so many feel like they've experienced similar emotions (but have learned to process them in a healthier way than this killer's mind was able to), but to me that indicates why this is such a massive issue for us as a species and why it's so important to address it. And addressing it means trying to find ways to help keep the males from becoming gigantic women-hating jerks, in addition to taking measures against the ones who do become monstrous.
 
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