Its funny because you are a Sony fan.
And you have no clue what you are talking about. The Hobbit look was due to standard lighting meshing with 48 fps.
Can we please stop with the whole "60 fps is not cinematic" argument.
- Thread starter mechphree
- Start date
Its funny because you are a Sony fan.
Saintguine
Member
I honestly never understand why people say 60FPS takes you out of a game and detracts from the story emotionally, when I played Spec Ops: The Line in 60FPS it didn't diminish the horror and emotions I felt when I progressed through it.
The great thing about 60fps is that it makes what should be real unreal (special effects in live movies) cause they look videogamish or "soap opera". But it makes what is not meant to be real, like a full cgi stylized movie, kinda real.. In term of presence at least (the trendy word)
This is incredibly sad but true.
Anyone who's played PC games for a long time can see and explain why 30FPS is so bad, but anyone who hasn't has no reason to say it is since "well it's been fine until now" eugh.
Heck, even movies are better in 60FPS.
dgrdsv
Member
I did. And it's fantastic. I wish every movie was shot in 48 fps.
kitschbeam
Member
I'm okay with 30 fps, but 24 fps? naaah..
Movies /= Games. Your point is moot.
How silly, its ignorance like this that hold back devs from giving us games that look like Infamous but at 60fps! If they said here's two disks of Infamous with the same graphics, one at 30fps and one at 60fps, you would take the 60fps. But you are not even giving them the choice, you are giving them the easy option of not bothering.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
It's just too bad consoles don't have much in the way of allowing us to tweak the games to our own liking. So what ends up happening is developers push the hardware as much as they can and think 30fps is the happy medium. I'm not sure what the percentage would be of those who favor better graphics over higher frame rates but I'd imagine it's high.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/insomniac-60fps-no-more
For me the absolute minimum should be locked, rock solid 30 FPS. On specific games (fighting, racers, sports) 60 FPS should be preferred but I can adjust if the IQ and eye candy are really jaw dropping. I would love if remakes of last generation games reach 60 FPS. I remember watching an Uncharted 60 FPS video and it was just beautiful.
Found it
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-what-if-uncharted-3-ran-at-60-fps
And just like that I'll be replaying U3
Found it
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-what-if-uncharted-3-ran-at-60-fps
And just like that I'll be replaying U3
A lot of it depends on the game too, like people saying "24fps is great" have never played a racing game maybe? Walking around at a snails pace in watchdogs isnt indicative of the choppiness you'd see in a fast paced game. Of course devs are limited, but when people are giving them new excuses to produce lame ports like Watchdogs because "30fps is great".... Thats super annoying.
weralacroix
Neo Member
For games, the more FPS the better, but developers are always going to use 30FPS to make games look better unless console makers make a rule that all games have to be 60FPS.
That's not necessarily bad though.
As for movies, I believe all movies are going to have high frame rates in some years.
It is just a matter of people getting used to it and movies becoming better.
When sound was introduced to movies people reacted.
When color was introduced to movies people reacted.
When movies started being digital instead of film people reacted.
When movies started having high frame rates(now) people reacted.
After some years we will remember this debate and laugh.
That's not necessarily bad though.
As for movies, I believe all movies are going to have high frame rates in some years.
It is just a matter of people getting used to it and movies becoming better.
When sound was introduced to movies people reacted.
When color was introduced to movies people reacted.
When movies started being digital instead of film people reacted.
When movies started having high frame rates(now) people reacted.
After some years we will remember this debate and laugh.
Saintguine
Member
One thing I'll never understand is why videogames are too scared of looking "videogamey" with 60FPS and are trying to overcompensate for its perceived lack of artistic merits by imitating a more mature medium. I mean did films worry about looking too "filmish" in the face of theater? Did novels worry about its writing being too "novelish" in the face of epic poetry?
To me, all this "too videogamey" stuff only reinforces the late Roger Ebert's statements about videogames not being art and too immature to strive on in its own style and instead opt to be poor imitations of a more established and mature medium.
To me, all this "too videogamey" stuff only reinforces the late Roger Ebert's statements about videogames not being art and too immature to strive on in its own style and instead opt to be poor imitations of a more established and mature medium.
Canis lupus
Member
With 3rd person action games, I'd take a locked 30fps with great graphics over 60fps and not so great graphics anyday.
plagiarize
Banned
I loathe this argument.
"Hey guys, this thing you don't like... you aren't going to change it, so just shut up about it!"
I've heard it about lots of things that ended up getting changed. We're not going to change it in a game that's close to release, but the more people that voice complaints, the more likely those devs are to target 60 fps in their next game, even if it's only a little bit more likely.
Here's a fact. The number of people who 'prefer' 30 fps and would be upset if a game changed to 60 fps instead is very very very small compared to the number of people who would prefer a game to be 60 fps.
Even if the group of people who want 60 isn't massive, developers are going to see a net gain in supporters when they target 60 over 30.
So naturally, people that prefer 30 would rather we shut up. Well we won't.
Wolfenstein is great fun. The Last of Us is going to be 60. Metro Redux is going to be 60. By continuing to push for 60, we're going to continue getting it, and as the voices increase (which they will), we'll see it more and more.
RE4 is a better game at 60 fps. RE5 is a better game at 60 fps. Gears of War is a better game at 60 fps. Dead Space 2 is a better game at 60 fps. I'll take good graphics, clean IQ and superior playability over great graphics, less playability, and poorer IQ any day of the week.
We've been putting out games at 30fps (more or less, yeah) for a while now. I mean, if you want only 24fps, that will let us put a whole lot more effects in!
Speaking less sarcastically, 30hz, 60hz and anything in between is more than just about being cinematic, it's about the underlying systems that affect gameplay and how they refresh. Your body/eye can't compensate for that like it does when watching 24fps source material on film. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge cinephile and buy Criterions, watch things in as original format as possible, etc., but in games, as most of us know, the higher the frame rate you can pull out, the better the overall experience, generally speaking.
Games vs. TV don't have that "soap opera" effect at higher than 24fps frame rates in my experience, but then again I'm not a dark10x frame rate peeper
I, for one, am looking forward to seeing our final result with TLOU PS4.
Nice to see that someone from the industry chimes in, finally. I really don't want to troll you, but I gotta say: Since your last effort, TLOU, had an abysmal framerate as low as 17FPS in action sequences, ND is kinda part of this problem - devs are lowering their quality standards towards framerate even more so, since better graphics have the potential to sell more. Aiming for 30FPS is bad enough, but bringing a game to the market with an average framerate way below that is not a good thing.
So, could you please shed some light how this is internally discussed? I guess, since your post makes sense, developers are very aware of how framerate impacts gameplay experience. Yet we see so many miserable approaches, just like TLOU (sorry, the content and concept was great, but the framerate wasn't) or even game with unlocked framerates like SS or KZSF. Now these devs should know about frametimes, response times, the difference between a stuttery engine and a smooth one for immersion etc. - so why is it that the market is flooded with poor efforts? Any idea? Just sales and marketing? I'm guessing you read Mike Actions (IG) blog post on the framerate topic? Thanks!
You are just used to it and lacking the contrast. How do you want to make a proper judgement about a difference you don't know? You can't.
nkarafo
Member
Best first post ever IMO.
Spring-Loaded
Member
What cinematic games do you like
TheKastorian
Member
I'll just say this: Watching the cutscenes in Ground Zeroes at 60 fps (PS4) just made it look incredibly fake.
While I prefer gameplay at 60 fps I'd rather have cutscenes at 30 fps. Having said that, for games that are heavy on story and dialogue (as The Order is expected to be), I'd rather have it locked at 30 fps across the board so it doesn't break the immersion during transitions.
While I prefer gameplay at 60 fps I'd rather have cutscenes at 30 fps. Having said that, for games that are heavy on story and dialogue (as The Order is expected to be), I'd rather have it locked at 30 fps across the board so it doesn't break the immersion during transitions.
I think that looks great. Shame we don't get at least animated films in 60fps.
nkarafo
Member
So you get tired when you play 99%of games on Atari 2600/Colecovision/NES/Master System/PC Engine/Genesis/SNES/Arcades?60 is way too many.
My eyes get tired trying to see all those frames
Canis lupus
Member
Were those games 60fps when they first came out? I enjoyed them on consoles and never missed those extra 30 frames, I beat 30fps multiple times and they offered me a lot of playability, overall in my gaming life I've probably completed 10x as many 30fps games as 60.
Is this some stealth pc masta raze!!! comment? How can you take the best of everything when sacrifices have to be made between IQ and fps?
What??? The whole reason it is 30 FPS is itssacrificing 60 FPS for higher graphical fidelity.
Some people...
dgrdsv
Member
Motion sickness at 60 fps is your brain trying to get free out of 24/30 fps jail it was condemned to for an eternity. Let it re-adjust. You won't be sorry.
I can't believe there are people who think 30fps > 60fps in any scenario.
I think it's just a simple case of wanting to believe that 60 isn't a target for all developers and that it is traded off for graphics.
I think those gamers need to play a particular title on PC and change the maxfps and see what the difference really feels like in the same game.
No, you would only claim motion sickness if the 60fps is a result of doubling frames.
I think it's just a simple case of wanting to believe that 60 isn't a target for all developers and that it is traded off for graphics.
I think those gamers need to play a particular title on PC and change the maxfps and see what the difference really feels like in the same game.
No, you would only claim motion sickness if the 60fps is a result of doubling frames.
Those are moot points because those games were designed at 30 frames when they came out. If RE4 was 60 frames when it originally came out on the gamecube, maybe it wouldn't have location specific hit responses, maybe the enemy count would be drastically reduced, or missing a bunch of other gameplay features and mechanics that made RE4 so great. It would probably look like ass as well, when a good reason why the game is so good is the atmosphere. You cant just say blanket statements like "well this game is better at 60 frames because my pc can run it that way." The pc should not even factor into this discussion, we're talking about consoles because each of these games were designed around consoles. Using superior pc hardware to brute force 60 frames has nothing to do with designing your game at 30 fps for specific console hardware.
nkarafo
Member
Whats your opinion on Sonic Generations/All stars racing?
ChiliManiac
Banned
It's not as far fetched as people make it sound, even if it might be a cop out. Frames per second is a really tricky animal. People should really understand aspect ration first and FPS second.
Film IQ Aspect Ratio(Warning, technical and lots of math talk)
http://vimeo.com/68830569
The Nail in the Coffin
http://filmmakeriq.com/2014/02/re-framing-the-question-hfr-is-oknow-can-we-finally-do-30-fps/
Film IQ Aspect Ratio(Warning, technical and lots of math talk)
http://vimeo.com/68830569
The Nail in the Coffin
http://filmmakeriq.com/2014/02/re-framing-the-question-hfr-is-oknow-can-we-finally-do-30-fps/
abstract alien
Member
It's usually the opposite for me. 30 and below has definitely given me a headache before, and never looked natural. Not all the time, but a lot more than not. 60fps looks a ton more "natural" to me and has never given me motion sickness. Probably just depends on the specific person.
Great post.
Plus, there are actuallu 'many' games that are NOT SHOOTERS and doesnt need for that extra responsiveness. For the record.
Hatty
Member
I actually think its the opposite
Consoles are never going to have the best graphics so you might as well focus on performance
plagiarize
Banned
You guys are missing my point. No, they weren't designed for 60 fps, yet they still play better that way. 60 fps vs 30 fps isn't just a question of not as pretty vs pretty, as Canis Lupus framed it. It's a question of not as pretty but better playing vs pretty but doesn't play as well.
That isn't remotely saying a game can't play great at 30 fps, because of course, many games do play great at 30 fps. But those games all play better at 60, because 60 vs 30 isn't just a graphical difference. Far from it. I picked all those games because they were third person games, which is what Canis was talking about, but if we'd been talking racing games, say, I'd happily put Burnout Paradise against Most Wanted, but it doesn't matter the genre.
Practically everything plays better at 60 fps *even if it wasn't designed for it*.
If The Evil Within is a cinematic 60 fps game, to argue that it should have been 30 and better looking is absolutely putting graphics over gameplay.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Most of my favorate games over the last two decades ran at 30fps
If I had a problem with that framerate, I probably would have never gotten into games at all....
Intresting that as of 2013, anything less than 60fps is now considered a stuttering, unplayable mess :/
or less
If I had a problem with that framerate, I probably would have never gotten into games at all....
Intresting that as of 2013, anything less than 60fps is now considered a stuttering, unplayable mess :/
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Can people stop having different opinions than mine?
Honestly, though, on fixed hardware, reaching 60fps involves sacrificing a lot of visual fidelity, including but not limited to resolution, particle effects, lighting, and post processing. So one way that 60fps could conceivably make something less cinematic is by reducing visual quality and removing effects and tricks that make a game look closer to the CG many have become accustomed to in films.
On hardware with infinite power, of course 60fps is preferable to 30, all else being equal. But when you start to downgrade a game's image quality in the pursuit of 60fps the subjectivity begins. That's what the argument stems from, and I think it's a perfectly valid point to disagree on.
Honestly, though, on fixed hardware, reaching 60fps involves sacrificing a lot of visual fidelity, including but not limited to resolution, particle effects, lighting, and post processing. So one way that 60fps could conceivably make something less cinematic is by reducing visual quality and removing effects and tricks that make a game look closer to the CG many have become accustomed to in films.
On hardware with infinite power, of course 60fps is preferable to 30, all else being equal. But when you start to downgrade a game's image quality in the pursuit of 60fps the subjectivity begins. That's what the argument stems from, and I think it's a perfectly valid point to disagree on.
Hatty
Member
I don't think anyone has said 30 is unplayable in this thread just that 60 is objectively superior in every way
nkarafo
Member
GTA5 was one of my favorite games last gen too. However, i would prefer it to run at 60fps.
Any game is better at 60fps. Even the ones that don't really benefit from a gameplay perspective (slow paced games).
Platformers are objectively better in 60FPS and require that extra response time.
Fighting Games are objectively better in 60FPS and require that extra response time.
Racers are better in 60FPS and require that extra response time.
Basically, any game with a competitive aspect to it should have 60FPS.
My argument is that you can't just say "my pc can run re4 at 60 frames and it's a better game because of it" because we don't know what an re4 designed around 60 frames, on gamecube hardware, is. It could be an entirely different game than the one we know. Using superior pc hardware to brute force any game at 60 frames isn't a good argument as to why all games should be 60 frames.
DarkoMaledictus
Tier Whore
It's only going to be current gen when I buy one of those...
Not even kidding... ok maybe 
AwakenedCloud
Member
Can you elaborate on what all playing better entails? Are you talking about control responsiveness, the 'feel', etc.?
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Thank you kind sir.
The argument isn't that 60fps is worse than 30fps on unbounded hardware. It's that the tradeoffs you have to make to get to that on fixed hardware may not be worth it to some.
Canis lupus
Member
Yes they were. They were designed with 30fps and console limitations in mind. I dunno how anyone actually can refute this. They werent designed with high spec systems in mind and then downgraded to consoles. If these games were not 30fps and instead 60, these games would look worse than they did at 30fps, on console or pc, period. They aren't gonna add extra textures, extra character polygons, better character models, bigger geometry, smarter AI and what other improvements you can imagine, on the pc port. All of the pc improvements of these games come down to: higher resolution, higher fps, better and sharper details of the details that already exists in some form in the low end (consoles).
I played Spec Ops the line on the highest settings on pc, it doesn't look next gen, it looks like a PS360 game, same engine, except that it ran in 1440p on my monitor.