Oh no, you really can. Not sure where your privates have been have anything to do with anything either. I've already seen one guy in here subtly defending it who I know is an out and out homophobe (will not name).
Jonah Hill on Calling a Paparazzo "Faggot"
- Thread starter Brakke
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Oh no, you really can. Not sure where your privates have been have anything to do with anything either. I've already seen one guy in here subtly defending it who I know is an out and out homophobe (will not name).
Monocle
Member
Good apology. Unlike most other celebrity apologies, Hill's didn't lean on excuses. I respect the way he acknowledged that a person's intentions don't make hurtful language acceptable.
So...it's productive for people to occasionally use a degrading slur in order to gradually change its meaning? Hmm.
Omegasquash
Member
Replace one word with another that's getting debated on GAF today and stop, please.
radios shipping overview
Member
The hurtful effects of a slur have nothing to do with whether somebody was using it with full knowledge of its power. If somebody was called a slur as a personal insult even once, they're going to remember that when somebody else says the word. The person using a word doesn't get to decide how that word will be perceived by others.
I was raised with the word meaning complete jerk/asshole/lame person. I'm sorry that it hurts you but I would never call you such a thing so I'm not sure how that would ever come up? It's a word that you can only use with like-minded people that you know understand the context/meaning and not have to fear it being taken the wrong way.
It's offensive to me because it's the most extreme version of asshole, or at least that's how I always understood it while growing up. To some people, nigger isn't offensive(because it's used in a very different context). To others it is very offensive. It's all about context, mindset, familiarity, and understanding. You wouldn't use either of those words with people who don't understand your intent.
Acerac
Banned
Fair enough. I don't think anyone would be upset at you for not finding it offensive; the problem comes from using it callously. We've come a long way, but it can still be rough for lbgt youth out there. They in no way need the constant reinforcement that they're wrong for being who they are.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I'm sorry about your upbringing
By then, lame had largely fallen out of usage, replaced by a word that people would now find more offensive -- crippled -- later to be replaced by anything from disabled to differently abled. Some people, by the way, are still offended by the word lame.
But, strictly speaking, none of this has anything to do with the subject at hand, as Jonah Hill clearly knew he was using inappropriate and hurtful language, given that he's said as much.
I'm not defending it! I'm just defending myself.. It seemed like people really wanted answers so I gave them my reasons. Doesn't mean I think that kind of language is appropriate or worthy of defending.
Lol again, more hyper-defensiveness. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to accept others' opinions.
edit: I wasn't even talking about my upbringing because my parents have never used that word so I'm not sure where you got that.
legacyzero
Banned
I wont defend eithers terrible words, however, we should consider the differences.
-Hill doesnt come off like a gigantic asshole literally all the time. Beiber does.
-Hill is apologizing all over the place and seems genuine IMO. Ive not seen or heard an apology from Beiber.
Leatherworkstation
Banned
Yeah, if you go to the freezer section in Sainsburys you'll see them, and if you hang about you might hear someone say "faggot". Faggots and peas might be on a menu. You can also go and get some fags from the shop, and nip out for a crafty fag.
The UK is weird when it comes to that word, it's an American insult really, but as we consume more media from the US and the world generally homogenises everyone should know it's also a slur and should treat it as such when not down the food aisle or at the cigarette counter. It should never be used in reference to a person, personally I don't say fag anymore when I'm talking about cigarettes, and I'd prefer not to say it when referencing the food.
Basically, just because it's also something else where you are, doesn't mean you get to be ignorant.
What he's saying is a pretty typical American male experience when it comes to growing up with/around that word. He's not defending it, he's explaining why it's so difficult to eradicate, because the word triggers a different meaning for him even though intellectually he understands the problem with it.
I know it's somewhat of a stupid question, but can anyone explain me why stuff like "faggot" and "nigga" are so frowned upon but yet we see loads of rap videos/songs with those slurs in it? It's like people are "ok" with it if it's used in those kind of things? Part of that culture? Hell, I personally know some black people who call each other "nigga" without any problem, but it'd be weird if I called one of them like that.
I don't want to sound ignorant, it's just one of things I wonder about and it's hard to find a place to ask this without people going "...what?" "lol..." etc. I've actually been banned before because I used the word "nigga". I kinda feel like Hill in that regard, only I didn't use it because I was angry/annoyed. I just used it in jest (was in the steam sales thread and I said something like "let's do this niggas" when the sales were about to start.) but didn't think that one through.
Thanks in advance.
I don't want to sound ignorant, it's just one of things I wonder about and it's hard to find a place to ask this without people going "...what?" "lol..." etc. I've actually been banned before because I used the word "nigga". I kinda feel like Hill in that regard, only I didn't use it because I was angry/annoyed. I just used it in jest (was in the steam sales thread and I said something like "let's do this niggas" when the sales were about to start.) but didn't think that one through.
Thanks in advance.
When I was growing up back in the 90s, faggot was used as substitute for dick/asshole/etc. We didn't know what it meant but we would call each other faggot all the time. I am now 23 years old and unfortunately the word does slip out every now and then despite knowing now that it's an offensive word towards gay people so it's tough to judge Jonah when I would probably end up doing the same thing when put in that position.
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
mhm faggot never means gay people anymore
when he said "suck my dick faggot" he was clearly referencing a traditional English delicacy
when he said "suck my dick faggot" he was clearly referencing a traditional English delicacy
Ah, other threads. Sorry, it wasn't clear to me that you referenced them, completely missed those threads. Looking them up, you have a point.
Angelus Errare
Banned
And that's a shame, slightly frustrating to see such ignorance on display. I feel like the Minority Warrior or something.
Maybe it's because I'm a minority that wasn't born and raised in America that I have little patience for such ignorance. Especially on GAF where many people like to claim they're more intelligent than the average forum poster.
I just see it all as excuses and fear when others call things as they are and not try to tuck away the more embarrassing parts of our society. It makes people uncomfortable to talk about these things; so many think they should be ignored and it will go away (really dumb logic).
Indeed, but let's be honest. Had Kobe made some heartfelt apology we all know the conversations that came afterwards would have not changed much at all. We would have still had that huge thread that became about Black culture, people would have still bugged out and it's all due to the difference in how each of them are perceived. Kobe's apology really wouldn't have changed anything unfortunately.
Now I'm having flashbacks to the Sylvester thread in which people argued it was okay for him to say nigger because he being harassed by the paparazzi and one of them happened to be black. There really is no justification even if you try to justify it. You're also insinuating had the ref done all those things to Kobe that somehow would have made it "okay" for Kobe to call the ref that.
No sir, it wouldn't have.
ab.aeterno
Member
No kids are not thinking about the dumb shit they're saying having a negative impact on society, but neither do adults. If you're really arguing that kids never know the meaning of the insult they're using, well, you can argue that, but I can tell you from personal experience growing up that's not the fucking case. Particularly once you get to middle and high school, people know exactly what they're communicating when they call someone a faggot.
You're arguing like kids do -- that since they're not using on someone who is gay (that they know of) that they don't consider it offensive. It still is, and as kids age, not only would I agree it gets used more frequently, but they also know what it means. I will never agree that teenagers using it don't know better.
So? If I call my white friend a nigger because he has despicable character or is being an idiot, that's ok because it's not towards a black person, and not targeting their race? Because you're arguing as though it's totally ok to say as long as it's not to a gay person because they're gay.
You can have a dissenting opinion, but that doesn't mean I can't say it's a dumb or wrong opinion to hold. Of course I'll be defensive about people saying faggot isn't offensive when I had to put up with it hurled at me growing up. And I was a lucky one who wasn't even out.
I don't understand it -- when did I say that word isn't offensive? It's very offensive! If you're suggesting I've ever called anyone that or hurled slurs or anything then I am grossly offended.
I see, i didn't know that. I guess the word now is "retarded", but that's another word that has changed meaning and mainly isn't used as an offensive slur anymore.
And yeah it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, i think it was just a natural progression of the topic.
Yes, but their perception is entirely determined by how the word has been used historically.
Context is very important for shit like this given the controversial nature of the word though, so I don't think calling a paparazzi in broad daylight a faggot is a good idea if you don't want to be misconstrued though.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
I know it's somewhat of a stupid question, but why do people want to say "faggot" and "nigga" so badly? Let it go.
Monocle
Member
Nobody owns the history and context of a word either. So no, you don't get to reinvent the meaning of words whenever you feel like it, not unless you're talking to yourself.
Your bullshit justifications for using words that demean and oppress people are disgusting.
Yeah, I've dealt with hearing this same type of shit all my life. And it's always worded almost exactly the same. Disgusting. For reference, I grew up in Alabama. So, yeah...
You need to learn some empathy and consideration for others. You'll end up hurting someone with that mindset. Bad.
Just 'cause you're not hurt by the words you say, doesn't mean it won't hurt another. These words hold a great weight and can be incredibly sharp. They can cut so deep and leave horrible scars and can ultimately end up driving the one on the receiving end to suicide.
It's not "being a pussy". Fucking hell.
Kuzcotopia
Neo Member
I find the word extremely offensive as it is indicative of the larger homophobic presence that still exists in our culture. It reminds me that my sexual orientation is not accepted by many and I avoid places on the internet that use freely use it, such as reddit and youtube comments.
If anyone ever asks me to stop using a certain word because it offends them, done. It's so easy to do and I will never understand why some get so angry that they cannot continue using language that brings about so many hateful feelings and memories.
If anyone ever asks me to stop using a certain word because it offends them, done. It's so easy to do and I will never understand why some get so angry that they cannot continue using language that brings about so many hateful feelings and memories.
It's not simply the word, it is what the word fires off in the mind of a typical gay person - and not without good reason - when they hear it, about what the user likely thinks about them, and that will never be acceptable to (most) gay people.
The idea of it as a catch-all 'nuclear-option' slur now is if anything even more offensive to me than when it was 'simply' or predominantly directed at gay people, because of what it says to me about what people think makes for a cutting insult.
If straight people are so upset that people are prickly about them using that word, well then they shouldn't have abused it as a battering ram for so long. It's not enough to simply say now 'oh when i say that, i don't mean that'. You don't get to decide what it means to the other people when the other persons' meaning, connotations, associations, emotional response etc. have been well engrained and have plenty of reasonable foundation.
See, things like this make me sometimes wonder if we, as a society, are getting better.
What is it now? A term of endearment?
Dark Octave
Banned
As a black person, I'm saying yes. Call your white friend a nigger. Call him a nigger as loudly and as often as you want. Why would I ever be offended by that if it's not aimed at me or another black person?
Retarded is actually still quite hotly contested. I'd say if you used retarded in a public space, you've got about a fifty/fifty chance of someone getting upset with you.
In the U.S., at least. And that's an important point. People aren't going to have the same expectations about which words are hot-button when they aren't part of the culture. Most of the U.S. wouldn't blink at the word "spastic", but it's caused some outrage in the UK. Neither it nor "mong" ever had much of a presence here.
They do both as teenagers/adults, and that's something to be careful about. They're often being completely genuine (as seen earlier in the thread) about their perceptions of the term. If you're trying to get someone to not use the word after it comes out of their mouth, and you accuse them of being anti-gay (and it was used in the non-gay context) it's going to make them incredibly defensive and not listen to you. Being able to say "Yeah, I know you didn't mean it as anti-gay, but other people WILL think you mean it as anti-gay and make assumptions about you" gives you a way to explain why not using it's in their best interest without triggering defense mechanisms. (in addition to the obvious points about it being harmful to gay people in general.)
If someone blatantly uses it to refer to a gay person, chances are that you're not even going to be able to start that conversation up in the first place.
Pankratous
Member
My father was talking to a Dutch women about the word spastic after she called him one jokingly during a pool game, and he told her that in the UK it means a person with down syndrome. She couldn't believe it and insisted it's just a synonym for idiot.
Weird, but as I said earlier, geography matters when it comes to these words. Though obviously I'm sure she doesn't represent all the Dutch.
Angelus Errare, I know that feel. The double standard when handling topics involving black people is disgusting. Look no further than the "Racism Caught on Tape" thread, half that thread is about how misunderstood the racist is and that the victim of said racism should have done "this, this and that" to not be victimized. Good thing it was caught on tape though or the conversation would have been totally different.
You're an awesome poster btw, just had to let you know.
You're an awesome poster btw, just had to let you know.
I'm betting this is a joke post. Gonna read the thread it'll be like picking the lottery balls.
Guess not then
Pai Pai Master
Banned
There is a hilarious Louis C.K. bit that essentially says the same thing but yes, it is offensive and you're daft if you think it's not.
Just because YOU think something is inoffensive and does not have a certain meaning does not mean that other people feel the same and don't tie the word to its more common meaning - i.e. a slur against gay people. It's selfish to think that just because you don't find it offensive that others can just deal with it.
Killing_Joke
Member
I miss the days when everyone wasn't so uptight. Forced apologizes are always funny at least.
ab.aeterno
Member
Sorry, let me clarify because I did word that poorly: I find the statement that someone doesn't equate the slur faggot with gay people to be incredulous, and will voice that incredulity. Let me be clear: as acerbic as I often read, I'm rarely actively angry. I don't, personally, harbor ill will against you.
And just seeing your edit, I'm not implying that at all.
Because by substituting nigger, a slur for black people, for a negative insult (idiot, moron, asshole) I'd be creating an equivalence between the two. It's why using gay for bad is a shit thing to do: you're using what i am as a substitute for bad. Why wouldn't I be offended by that?
Krauser Kat
Member
This thread is fascinating.
Im kind of glad he only resorted name calling rather than punching the piece of shit in his dumb face.
That said, using that word, or rape and any other racial slur isnt right. He was the lesser of two evil in the situation and world should have really tried to make that photographer wish he was someone else for a weekend.
Im kind of glad he only resorted name calling rather than punching the piece of shit in his dumb face.
That said, using that word, or rape and any other racial slur isnt right. He was the lesser of two evil in the situation and world should have really tried to make that photographer wish he was someone else for a weekend.
Just because you're not offended, doesn't mean it isn't offensive. I'm sure if he said the N word, many people would be offended.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
How about people use another word! There are a lot of words in most languages, don't use the ones that are slurs! Be socially conscious
John: Homer, what have you got against gays?
Homer: You know! It's not... usual. If there was a law, it'd be
against it!
Marge: Oh Homer, please! You're embarrassing yourself.
Homer: No I'm not, Marge! They're embarrasing me. They're embarrassing
America. They turned the Navy into a floating joke. They ruined
all our best names like Bruce, and Lance, and Julian. Those were
the toughest names we had! Now they're just, uh...
John: Queer?
Homer: Yeah, and that's another thing! I resent you people using that
word. That's our word for making fun of you! We need it!! Well
I'm taking back our word, and I'm taking back my son!
Homer: You know! It's not... usual. If there was a law, it'd be
against it!
Marge: Oh Homer, please! You're embarrassing yourself.
Homer: No I'm not, Marge! They're embarrasing me. They're embarrassing
America. They turned the Navy into a floating joke. They ruined
all our best names like Bruce, and Lance, and Julian. Those were
the toughest names we had! Now they're just, uh...
John: Queer?
Homer: Yeah, and that's another thing! I resent you people using that
word. That's our word for making fun of you! We need it!! Well
I'm taking back our word, and I'm taking back my son!
There are really two ways to achieve the desired ends: either the word is no longer used (in which case it becomes archaic) or the word is divorced from its meaning forcefully and consciously.
I think the former is significantly gentler than the latter. If we try to divorce the word from its meaning, there will be significant hurt feelings along the way until we finally achieve the end result; if we just stop using the word, no one is hurt.
I miss the days when people were possessed of basic critical reading skills.
Nothing about his apology was forced.
ab.aeterno
Member
I can only speak from my personal experience, but if I said "Yeah, I know you didn't mean it as anti-gay, but other people WILL think you mean it as anti-gay and make assumptions about you" to someone saying faggot in high school, they would have laughed, called me a cock sucking queer and walked away. I know some people may be ignorant, but especially at that age, most people would just shrug and say so? They didn't say it to a gay person so who cares? I'm cynical though, so I have little faith in the empathy power of teenagers.
I'm not saying it's OK or right. In fact, in the bit you quoted I said I agreed that it's not right.
But I'm also something of a realist. With very few exceptions (say the current Pope because he seems to have the patience of Mother Teresa) almost everyone, including you, will snap after a stream of constant verbal harassment.
Yes, the right thing to do is ignore it and walk away. That's what most of us are taught as kids. But if the harasser is good, there is going to be a strong urge to retaliate. And in that moment, the person who snaps is going to want to bust out the most hurtful words he or she can.
This is basic human psychology and I guarantee it wasn't a surprise for the Paparazzo. He was hounding Hill just to get this sort of reaction.
Given that the Paparazzo was tossing the sexual comments at Hill, is it really shocking that his response had a sexual bent?
It's not all that different than a woman who's being sexually harassed at a bar calling a man a prick. These are language connections that the brain makes and the responses are not unexpected.
Now, if Hill had just busted this out in casual conversation, you'd seem him getting raked over the coals for it. As it is, he seems to be more disappointed in himself than anyone else for:
1) Letting himself get to the point the he just wanted to lash out.
2) That when he did lash out, that was the most hurtful phrase that popped to mind.
Can't really fault someone for making a mistake and owning up to it. None of us are perfect.
Really though, it seems a bit hypocritical for everyone to be jumping on Hill and giving the Paparazzo a free pass. If none of the initial nastiness was there, the whole thing would have never have happened. The fault shouldn't just lay at Hill's feet because he's a famous face.
Circle Jerk
Member
Please explain why people getting offended by someone saying faggot is an example of them being uptight.
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