5 Uncomfortable Truths Behind the Men's Rights Movement
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Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I guess I can understand how you feel now. I'd be weird and defensive too if I had created an army of straw men around me.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Agreed. White-knighting is stupid.
My problem is that, if the situation is reversed, it's not seen as an unfair/unjust/bad situation in the bad. It's seen as payback. "Ah, you can't really complain about this woman did/is doing, because men do it too! Nyah nyah!"
Look, I lost my virginity when my then-girlfriend drove me to her place, locked the door, and threatened to kill herself if I didn't have sex with her. I wouldn't want any woman to be placed in that situation, either. And, once upon a time, I felt a lot of sympathy about women who were put in a similar situation by creepy or aggressive guys. But, over time, after being told over and over that my feelings were invalid because Men Do It Too, and that I should just take it on the chin Because Feminism, I realized that the feminist movement isn't a movement about promoting gender equality or equal relationships or anything; it's about the untestable belief that women are losing in every situation and consequently deserve unlimited power to respond. They're GLAD when bad things happen to men because it's seen as retribution.
I'd rather have a movement that defends everyone's rights and sexuality. But until that day comes, if someone is blindly defending women in all cases, I'm afraid someone's got to be there to blindly defend men
So...feminism.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I personally don't think "rights" is the right word to apply to the plight of white males of America. Not to dismiss any plights they might have (and I'm sure they do have some). But honestly the idea of MRAs being based around countering the feminist movement already makes MRAs despite any good intentions they might have sound absolutely dumb. It's like making a White Rights movement to counter Black Rights. Or a Straight Movement to counter the LBGT movement. You don't make a movement to counter another movement born out of inequality; it makes your movement seem like it was simply created out of fear of lose of power and less about your actual plights.
I'm still convinced that 2/3 of MRA supporters are just people scared of change/lose of power.
/shrug.
Even that should be broken down looked under a microscope; I mean compare the incarceration rates of black males to white males. I highly doubt MRAs are concerned with the latter.
I'm still convinced that 2/3 of MRA supporters are just people scared of change/lose of power.
/shrug.
Even that should be broken down looked under a microscope; I mean compare the incarceration rates of black males to white males. I highly doubt MRAs are concerned with the latter.
Unhandled Exception
Member
Agreed. White-knighting is stupid.
My problem is that, if the situation is reversed, it's not seen as an unfair/unjust/bad situation in the bad. It's seen as payback. "Ah, you can't really complain about this woman did/is doing, because men do it too! Nyah nyah!"
Look, I lost my virginity when my then-girlfriend drove me to her place, locked the door, and threatened to kill herself if I didn't have sex with her. I wouldn't want any woman to be placed in that situation, either. And, once upon a time, I felt a lot of sympathy about women who were put in a similar situation by creepy or aggressive guys. But, over time, after being told over and over that my feelings were invalid because Men Do It Too, and that I should just take it on the chin Because Feminism, I realized that the feminist movement isn't a movement about promoting gender equality or equal relationships or anything; it's about the untestable belief that women are losing in every situation and consequently deserve unlimited power to respond. They're GLAD when bad things happen to men because it's seen as retribution.
I'd rather have a movement that defends everyone's rights and sexuality. But until that day comes, if someone is blindly defending women in all cases, I'm afraid someone's got to be there to blindly defend men
I don't think the solution to any problem is to try and offset it with an equal problem. It's time to grow up.
See, I always have felt 'annoyed' for the lack of a better word about Pick Up Artists, but you just nailed it.
IMO, and I know you asked him and not me, and maybe I'll be quoted and ridiculed to death by people who are more smarter than me (I'm not being sarcastic), but in personal experience, ending some of the bullshit that other generations of men have perpetuaed through so many years. (Patriarchy, I believe?)
An uncle called me faggot (and luckily, my dad backed me up saying 'shut the fuck up' in nice words) because I slipped out that I wasn't interested in ever getting married or having a family at all. So naturally, he presumed I don't find women attractive or whatever, and that leads to "what the fuck is wrong with you?"
Some people added the "lol be a man" and the depression issues that some people keep to themselves, but some of those are perpetuated by men and their distorted notion of what you're supposed to be based on your genre. In the end it shouldn't be about "men vs women" or anything, but y'know, equality? Maybe it shouldn't be about 'MR' at all.
I'm guessing people believe that 'feminism' is a term to 'women that hate men' or something.
CornBurrito
Member
I guess. But then why post them on a discussion forum? For people to just look at?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm waiting for you to make a point that doesn't involve making up someone or something first.
if someone is blindly defending women in all cases, I'm afraid someone's got to be there to blindly defend men
...
So, are you saying you want feminism?
Agreed. White-knighting is stupid.
My problem is that, if the situation is reversed, it's not seen as an unfair/unjust/bad situation in the bad. It's seen as payback. "Ah, you can't really complain about this woman did/is doing, because men do it too! Nyah nyah!"
Look, I lost my virginity when my then-girlfriend drove me to her place, locked the door, and threatened to kill herself if I didn't have sex with her. I wouldn't want any woman to be placed in that situation, either. And, once upon a time, I felt a lot of sympathy about women who were put in a similar situation by creepy or aggressive guys. But, over time, after being told over and over that my feelings were invalid because Men Do It Too, and that I should just take it on the chin Because Feminism, I realized that the feminist movement isn't a movement about promoting gender equality or equal relationships or anything; it's about the untestable belief that women are losing in every situation and consequently deserve unlimited power to respond. They're GLAD when bad things happen to men because it's seen as retribution.
I'd rather have a movement that defends everyone's rights and sexuality. But until that day comes, if someone is blindly defending women in all cases, I'm afraid someone's got to be there to blindly defend men
Someone's bitter.
CornBurrito
Member
Isn't there (or wasn't there) some strife in the feminist movement because minority women felt the movement was mostly concerned with white women?
Like most protests, it's in the wording/presentation. If you word it as a desire to sit next to minors then yes, you will probably be judged as a creep. If on the other hand you phrase it as the desire not to be immediately judged as a pedophile due to your gender (which is what my point actually is), then you are more likely to draw support.
I disagree that a non-public protest is doing nothing. Besides petitions & boycotts are often given publicity. I am simply saying that I personally would not organize a march/sit-in, but again there are other ways to protest and have your message get out.
Orbis Tabula
Member
Agreed. White-knighting is stupid.
My problem is that, if the situation is reversed, it's not seen as an unfair/unjust/bad situation in the bad. It's seen as payback. "Ah, you can't really complain about this woman did/is doing, because men do it too! Nyah nyah!"
Look, I lost my virginity when my then-girlfriend drove me to her place, locked the door, and threatened to kill herself if I didn't have sex with her. I wouldn't want any woman to be placed in that situation, either. And, once upon a time, I felt a lot of sympathy about women who were put in a similar situation by creepy or aggressive guys. But, over time, after being told over and over that my feelings were invalid because Men Do It Too, and that I should just take it on the chin Because Feminism, I realized that the feminist movement isn't a movement about promoting gender equality or equal relationships or anything; it's about the untestable belief that women are losing in every situation and consequently deserve unlimited power to respond. They're GLAD when bad things happen to men because it's seen as retribution.
I'd rather have a movement that defends everyone's rights and sexuality. But until that day comes, if someone is blindly defending women in all cases, I'm afraid someone's got to be there to blindly defend men
I believe you have had a very, very atypical experience with feminism. You've clearly dealt with some very unpleasant people behaving in stupid ways, all while claiming to be feminists. And while I'm going to try very hard to not pull a No True Scotsman here, I think that your interactions with feminists and the beliefs that these people have are not indicative of the movement as a whole. I think if you spent more time interacting with feminists, you would recognize that many of them share a lot of common goals with you. There are many, many feminists who are just as concerned with male rape as they are with female rape. Hell, there's one in this thread. Feminism, as a movement, is interested in tackling gender issues of all types. There are bad feminists, but I feel like I shouldn't even need to state that. There are bad people in every group. But the movement is interested in righting many sorts of wrongs, not just jumping to the defense of any woman over an perceived slight.
As for your last line, I hope that's in jest. If you feel you need to be there to defend the opposite of everything that another person is blindly for, you will end up a very busy man.
EDIT: Also, I'm sorry about what happened to you when you were younger. I can't imagine having to deal with such an emotional taxing situation, especially at a younger age. It's a tragedy that it happened to you and a tragedy that when you share it with some, they brush it off with no concern. I hope you won't let the behavior of crass and irresponsible people color your opinion of the world too much.
Yep. I was typing and new responses showed up so I added the last part.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Yes.
Eyemus Lutt
Member
Well I guess MRA's started more on the crazy spectrum and progressed from there, while feminist were more reasonable and in the center but very quickly got hijacked by the extremists.
Look you might have in your circle of friends much more reasonable feminists, but they are currently in the minority when from what I see online and in person as well.
The term feminist has been hijacked and a new word needs to be used to take back control like Humanist or something similar.
It's how we got Womanism.
Which right are you fighting for here?
CornBurrito
Member
Let us all hope that Samarecarm doesn't stumble on to a white privilege thread on tumblr and then join Stormfront to blindly defend white rights.
Never heard of it.
Is that still happening? Or has the movement made strides to be more racially inclusive?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yes. "White feminism" is often used as an insult against feminists who seem, intentionally or not, only focused on white people. Sometimes even only white straight people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality - this is what we're after.
The article does a good job covering it.
A good MR group would advocate for gay men.
It would advocate for men of color.
It would advocate for all the male nurses, flight attendants, interior decoraters, theater performers, cosmologists, etc. and their right to "masculinity."
It would advocate for stay-at-home dads.
It would advocate for fairer laws regarding parental rights of responsible fathers in cases where they are not married to the mother of their child in issues regarding healthcare and adoption.
It would educate against the pro-aggression, emotional detachment model by which young men are often raised.
It would rail against many traditional ideas of masculinity, in favor of new ideas that are more inclusive, more tolerant, and less likely to leave our boys emotionally fucked-up when they don't (or can't) conform to their rigidity.
In short: proper MR groups would be more like feminists instead of foaming at the mouth against them and making the entire movement about "those evil Feminists" and reminiscing about "the good old days" that actually weren't so good if you were weren't a straight white guy.
User 100115
Banned
No one is saying that men don't face issues that need to be addressed.
We are saying that bitching about women and feminism isn't the way the address them, which is what MRAs do.
Devolution
Member
Yes but recently there has been a large push to recognize all intersectionality as much as possible whether it's gender, sexuality, race, etc. Not perfect obviously but there is a greater attempt to realize the struggles outside of being a cis white straight female.
Agreed. White-knighting is stupid.
My problem is that, if the situation is reversed, it's not seen as an unfair/unjust/bad situation in the bad. It's seen as payback. "Ah, you can't really complain about this woman did/is doing, because men do it too! Nyah nyah!"
Look, I lost my virginity when my then-girlfriend drove me to her place, locked the door, and threatened to kill herself if I didn't have sex with her. I wouldn't want any woman to be placed in that situation, either. And, once upon a time, I felt a lot of sympathy about women who were put in a similar situation by creepy or aggressive guys. But, over time, after being told over and over that my feelings were invalid because Men Do It Too, and that I should just take it on the chin Because Feminism, I realized that the feminist movement isn't a movement about promoting gender equality or equal relationships or anything; it's about the untestable belief that women are losing in every situation and consequently deserve unlimited power to respond. They're GLAD when bad things happen to men because it's seen as retribution.
I'd rather have a movement that defends everyone's rights and sexuality. But until that day comes, if someone is blindly defending women in all cases, I'm afraid someone's got to be there to blindly defend men
TMI?
Btw, feminism does and has tackled issues that everyone has benefited. Tackling defined gender roles being a good one.
But man, your post comes off really bitter and resentful.
User 100115
Banned
Yep, huge push in fact.
Angelus Errare
Banned
It's gotten much better and is more inclusive, but still not to the point where splinter movements are no longer needed. Though I think women are quicker to become more inclusive.
Where as with MRA I doubt we'll see such strides.
It really just sounds like he's been on Tumblr for a while, actually.
Most of the stuff people complain about in these threads sounds like it came from there somewhere.
CornBurrito
Member
Actually I'm really curious and don't want to wade through MRA blogs/forums to find the answer to this.
How do MR groups currently feel about gay men? Are they just ignored, or actively disliked?
I REALLY don't want to sound like I'm defending the guy because like 99% of what he's said in this thread is nonsensical but there are a non-zero number of people who say they are feminists but say/do things that would amount to essentially "man-hating". Thankfully that's a super minority and they don't accurately represent the feminist movement at all but they certainly exist and it's POSSIBLE that those are the only people he's interacted with. That doesn't excuse anything that poster has said or done however and it behooves him to actually learn more about the movement and the people that are actually representative of it.
rudieboy77
Member
Are these MRA's typically on university campuses?
What an incredibly obtuse and drive-by response to a number of well reasoned arguments and descriptive positions.
Angelus Errare
Banned
They're ignored because ironically they're not "men" in most MRA believers eyes.
DrFaustPhD
Member
Probably because your view of "feminists" seems to be based on caricatures and some vocal minority views, as opposed to what the bulk of feminists actually are, want or believe.
Orbis Tabula
Member
It obviously varies from place to place. There are some Men's Rights movements that are legitimately concerned with gender issues, who seem to care about gay men. Then there are some that are more obsessed with projecting and protecting an idea of "manliness" and gay man are too "faggoty" to be part of the movement. "Our movement defines masculinity as an attraction to femininity" or some such stuff.
Devolution
Member
Except you've done nothing but generalize us as man-haters. So the fuck.
Deified Data
Banned
I've been spiraling down through an endless deluge of YT videos lately from MRAs and the "alt conservative" movement as a sort of experiment to challenge my conception of the world by attempting to identify with people who hold diametrically opposed views to me. I consider myself an empathetic person but no, if you can't even agree on certain philosophical basics there's no understanding to be head. Their minds are absolutely alien to me. But still it's been enlightening, if only to see how the "other side" thinks.
Here's something - a female MRA/anti-feminist. Channel is called "Girl Writes What?": https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat
Self-hate is a fascinating phenomenon, but not all that rare I'm afraid.
Here's something - a female MRA/anti-feminist. Channel is called "Girl Writes What?": https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat
Self-hate is a fascinating phenomenon, but not all that rare I'm afraid.
The problem is, with this tack you immediately allow your protest to be red-herringed about whether or not men are more likely to be pedophiles, vs the more important discussion about discrimination based on gender.
Boycotts are given publicity when they're public. That's literally what the word implies. You can't get your message out if you don't get your message out. Feminists got traction because they actively made people aware of discrimination and unfair / unequal treatment, not because they silently agreed to agree with other people who might do something if they happened to hear about it.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Reddit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womanism
I remember once reading a long time ago of a quote about how white women were out rallying for their own rights... while black women were taking care of those white women's children at home. That's basically the tl;dr version of how Womanism came to be.
You'll notice that Womanism wasn't borne as a means to slap down white women's wants, but it's to instead put into perspective the fact that women of color have different needs in addition to the needs white women have.
Fornaximus
Member
MRAs are laughable, but I often feel like they and the feminists that they battle on Twitter are merely two sides of the same coin. My mom was an OG feminist from the 60's and 70's, and she has complained about how everything has become loaded. How feminism has been hijacked and used as a front for people to complain about itsfuckingnothing.gif (paraphrased). Although, she also admitted to protesting an opening of A Clockwork Orange because of the rape scenes, so maybe the fight against itsfuckingnothing.gif runs deeper than it appears.
Anyway, I think there's a colossal lack of perspective when the teens and 20-somethings of 2014 America claim they're being systematically oppressed, and the constant us-versus-them between men's and women's groups on social media isn't helping anyone. You're not so different, you and you.
Anyway, I think there's a colossal lack of perspective when the teens and 20-somethings of 2014 America claim they're being systematically oppressed, and the constant us-versus-them between men's and women's groups on social media isn't helping anyone. You're not so different, you and you.
The problem with what you're saying is that you're treating feminist views as being commonly associated with negative ones while the movement and it's history say otherwise.
MRA on the other hand has widely been known for attacking feminism and having toxic views. We don't have anything positive coming from the movement.
That's not to say there isn't a mens right group out there that is positive but the problem is that MRA is the well known one being supported.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Do you watch South Park?
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
Haha tools. It's like a bunch of dudes using what we would normally think of as sarcastic jokes against women as real arguments for a movement. Who does that?
Some of the stuff in Tumblr is pretty cringe inducing. At least some of the discussion going in here can actually enlighten some people or act as telling them 'hey, you're wrong about this and this is why'.
Whilst in the majority of tumblr it's pretty much "you have a penis? fucking die and rot in hell". :|
Honestly? I only use tumblr for porn and funny gifs, but I still recall seeing this post with like, 'all men are stupid fucks and they all should die' or something with 100k reblogs and likes. I'm not gonna use 'disturbing' or 'terrifying', but heck, that's just not nice and it would be hell if it was 'women' instead. So that's why I rarely take anything seriously from there.
Bonus, apparently not finding a transgender women (is this the right word?) attractive or not wanting to have sex with them is homophobic and mysoginist.
CornBurrito
Member
Ah. That isn't shocking. The MRAs I have seen on r/theredpill seem to want a system that enforces traditional gender roles. Even though that's ironically what causes some of their problems, like courts supposedly unfairly favoring women in custody cases because they are seen as being better caretakers.
Orbis Tabula
Member
That's an interesting topic to try to cover. How should we define a feminist? Is it enough to say you are a feminist? Or is it defined more by what you say or do? If being a feminist is defined by your behaviors, than it's perfectly legitimate to use that kind of excuse. If the feminism movement defined itself as a group that abstained from Action A, and then a self-professed feminist did Action A, I think the group as a whole would be justifiable with incurring a No True Scotsperson fallacy and saying "That person is not really a feminist." It's great to know your fallacies, but I think one of the most common fallacies among educated people is throwing them out prematurely.
And it's clear that in many ways, members of a group can fall short of the groups goals, or act in counter-productive or harmful ways. This is obvious. However, if you have issues with feminists apparent lack of concern on male issues, your interests might be better served to approach them as allies rather than enemies. Express appropriate concern for women's issues and you'll find it much easier to get feminists to understand the issues you have. Attacking the group as a collection of man-haters is not productive for your cause. It makes you look like the kind of people that a lot of drive-bys in this thread are complaining about.
EDIT: Dammit, he was banned. Well I hope you're still reading. And I hope you understand that a big part of the frustration from our arguments against you seems to be that you're quick to paint feminists with a broad brush after bad intereractions with their loud members, but steadfast in your defense of the men's rights movement, despite our bad interactions with their loud members. I hope you don't go away from this thread taking your ban as more evidence for male persecution. Many, many, many people in this thread have expressed sincere sympathy with men's rights issues. I'd wager a majority. We recognize your concerns. The criticisms against you, I feel, were more against your misdirected concern and the unbalanced amount of slack you give one movement against the other. None of us are faultless in that. We are all more biased to support one side or the other. But hopefully you understand out issues with your seemingly automatic defense of MRAs against your automatic opposition to feminists. Hope your ban isn't too long.
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