akachan ningen
Member
But how are they taking his masculinity? By looking down on him? How does that work?
5 Uncomfortable Truths Behind the Men's Rights Movement
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But how are they taking his masculinity? By looking down on him? How does that work?
Simon Belmont
Banned
There's no 'trick' to finding a partner, and thinking there is one might be one of this fictional person's issues. The problem with a lot of these PUA's is that they treat women as objects to be conquered, not individual humans with their own agency.
I sympathize with anybody who is just out there looking for love, but if you need a book to get through the first date then you're with the wrong person, I can guarantee it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
MRAs defined themselves. We're just obliging. This thread has shown a few examples of people questioning what the MRM is about other than attacking feminism. While they may talk up some goals, none seem as important or as motivating as what feminism has done to them.
Because there is countless examples of MRA focusing the movement on attacking feminism.
Feminism has been around for a long time. It's always been known as a positive movement which sometimes will unfortunately get extremists much like any other movement.
If MRA's actually focused on serious issues then they wouldn't be so heavily generalized and hated.
Because PUA has always been a toxic way of learning to socialize.
Male nurses are definitely looked at poorly. We've even got movies such as Meet The Parents where it's made fun of.
This wouldn't be such a problem for MRA's if they weren't so eager to prove that label right in such large numbers. A Voice For Men, for example, states explicitly that one of their goals is to "educate men and boys about the threats they face in feminist governance and to promote an end to that governance". It's not really a good look.
God Dayumm
Banned
Yeah, I understand your point. And I agree, unfortunate as the situation is.
I think the movement is poisoned because it was born on the Internet, where there are too many trolls, hyperbole and anonymous bullying. Unlike feminism, which predates the Internet by several decades, so there has been a more genuine involvement even if it had its own crazies.
Circle Jerk
Member
the post you quoted was a joke
CornBurrito
Member
I feel it was pretty clear what Cyan meant. I'll let him explain himself though. Obviously masculinity can't be "taken" like a physical object. But I think it would be good to change social norms such that a man who pursues something "feminine" isn't looked down on by a large percentage of people.
Messofanego
Banned
Devolution
Member
Supported GOP in their attempts to block passage of portions of VAWA.
Stay-at-home dads need advocates because society looks down upon stay-at-home dads, and that sucks, and also because society looking down at stay-at-home dads prevents other dads from wanting to be one which causes more women to have to take on that role, thereby reinforcing dumb gender roles that harm men that want to stay at home and women that don't.
Are you poking fun at something? Because this is inescapably stupid.
Kite
Member
heh looking through the thread it seems like for for the following:
I can actually get behind most of these, but the term MRA has been tainted by all this negative PR where people pick out quotes from the lunatic fringe to discredit the entire group. I've seen the same with "tumblr feminists." And this is a real shame.
HerbertFish
Member
Classifying the Men's Rights movement as the red pill subreddit is like using that batshit feminist tumblr that thinks all sex is rape as the feminist movement. It's really easy to pick apart the extremes.
I don't know enough about about the men's rights movement to otherwise comment but I always thought a primary motivating factor was maternal and divorce issues, which i think is fine and something men do struggle a lot with. I don't think gender issues need to be black and white, where because women are so far behind in do many issues that it somehow means men aren't behind in other issues at all.
I don't know enough about about the men's rights movement to otherwise comment but I always thought a primary motivating factor was maternal and divorce issues, which i think is fine and something men do struggle a lot with. I don't think gender issues need to be black and white, where because women are so far behind in do many issues that it somehow means men aren't behind in other issues at all.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
But then where are the "normal" ones, and what have they accomplished?
Fathers for justice threw a condom filled with purple powder at Tony Blair once in the house of commons, oh and a bunch of them dressed up as super heros and climbed landmarks refusing to leave.
White isn't an ideology, or a self appointed identity.
I'm not saying to judge woman based on feminism, or men based on MRA.
I'm saying you have to take into consideration the extremists in the feminist movement when judging feminism as a whole, and the extremists in the MRA movement when judging MRA as a whole.
My social and political views should make me want to identify as feminist, but I've encountered so many idiotic Tumblr-feminists as to make the entire movement toxic in name. If I meet someone who identifies as feminist, I'm cautious. My first thought is to wondering what flavour feminist they are. Moderate, egalitarian and rational, or the sort of irrational, hypocritical person endemic to Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit and Jezebel comments.
Based on my exposure to online feminism and MRA stuff, it's pretty clear to me the gender warriors on both sides are the most crazy, blinkered, intolerant folks on the internet. And very vocal and probably in the majority.
would you mind posting some evidence or sources to support the idea that feminism has been "hijacked" by extremists? that extremists are currently the majority of feminists?
for evidence of that on the mra side simply visit the most popular mra communities
if the most popular feminist communities on the internet are advocating extremist ideology for example i would be interested to see it (some maniac on tumblr or something isn't the kind evidence of feminism being "hijacked" i would be interested in)
That seems like an unfair statement to make. Extremists are obviously more visible and calm settled people who just make arguments are obviously far less so.
As in everything instead of labelling an entire group of people the better approach is to ignore the people entirely and focus on each argument separately.
Men do commit suicide far more than women do, young men are going to college less than young women are etc etc. These are issues that shouldn't be hijacked by misogynist assholes.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Where exactly are these more level headed MRA supporters? I mean the current MRA was damn near basically born on redpill as a counterpoint to feminism. Creating a movement to fight another movement on the internet no less rarely results in anything fruitful. >.>
But if the movement is accomplishing something then where is the proof?
I'm sorry but extremists or not, feminism has plenty to show for what it's done.
Well, black men are the primary victims of institutional racism in the justice system. I'd hope a men's rights movement would tackle this.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I know lol
Some guys need a lot of practice or tuition to be taught how to talk to women. Same thing for some girls where they can ask for dating advice. Only thing is women need less help and are less demonised for asking for it. As for treating women like commodities, I don't know. I never frequented PUA forums, I have only read the Game which is more memoir than self help book, and from what I have been told they seem to focus more on personal self-improvement nowadays. I can't jive completely with the MRA movement even if I think they have some points, that said I am critical of feminists who think that they are above and beyond criticism.
HerbertFish
Member
Why would they have had to accomplish something to have issues?
I didn't say anything about whether they have accomplished anything or not. I'm saying that there are a whole raft of issues that men do face that just get sneeringly dismissed as being something a Men's Rights activist would say. And that's not a good situation to be in at all.
It's just bizarre to me the polarazied mirror society we live in. One side is more than willing to believe everything bad they hear about feminists and not caring for hard data to come to their conclusions, the other side is more than happy to do the same thing for men's rights activists.
Labelling people and groups as a means of dismissing them is bad, period, full stop. Let's just focus on the arguments, find the good ones that raise real issues and either ignore or mock the rest. But it should be done to ARGUMENTS and not PEOPLE.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I'm still trying to find these arguments that MRA are fighting for that aren't basically them trying to strip away at feminist.
But you were responding to someone saying they don't judge all white people based on KKK members. KKK members are white, and identify as white. Therefore they pass your criteria for judging the whole based on the few who share an identity. You flipped what was being asked because your actual beliefs do not support your conclusions.
If you are doing an inventory or study of feminism, yes you are correct, you have to take it into appropriate consideration. But you do not look only at what you consider "extremists" and base the entirety of your judgement on those extremists. If however extremists actually composed a majority, plurality, or substantial proportion of actual movement feminists, then you could make this argument. However, as we see below you appear to be basing your conclusions on random blog posts you found and not on actual movement feminists or anything regarding real-world social or political activism.
So basically you acknowledge there is a wide variety of people involved in a movement, and a lot of intellectual, philosophical, and political diversity, but you choose to judge the movement as a whole on web comments instead.
akachan ningen
Member
If the guy really wanted to do that though, nothing would stop him. Except his own insecurity. Not everyone is so sensitive that the judgement of others shape their actions. Instead of trying to get people to STOP doing something like this male nurse shaming(how would you even do that? protests?) you can teach the guy to stop giving a shit, which is a LOT more powerful because that confidence and security will seep into other areas of his life.
Earthstrike
Member
People have searched for those that aren't extremists. They are few and far between. This likely has to do with the fact that people who genuinely are concerned about advancing men's right are likely feminists already, so they wouldn't want to become or feel associated with the MRA's we have right now.
Devolution
Member
Simon Belmont
Banned
You should be critical of anybody who thinks that. Why single out feminism?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with self improvement, or doing things to deliberately make yourself more attractive to whomever you're trying to court.
Reading a book however, is not going to teach you how to talk to women or magically make you more comfortable around them. Also a lot of dudes who follow PUA advice end up coming off as creepy stalkers.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It doesn't even need to be an accomplishment as much as a public goal with actual support, positivity, and visibility. There wouldn't be a need for discussing the group as a whole if we had even just one really good guy (a nice guy, even) who has done some serious good for the cause.
They don't, but I think it's reasonable to ask what MRA groups have accomplished or tried to accomplish. What actions have they taken, etc.
e.g. a notable campaign put on by MRAs was this one:
If you'd bothered to read what was said, you would see that I was differentating between judging a group (demographic based on things people have no control over, like race or gender) and self selected ideologies.
It is stupid to judge a group based on the actions of individuals, but its different when judging a political ideology based on a vocal subsection of its supporters.
The latter is where I get the vast majority of exposure to modern feminism, so of course I will use that to influence my opinions on it. You can't dismiss it, or downplay internet feminism as 'web comments'. Twitter and its ilk caries far more influence than that, and hashtags campaigns shape the wider discourse of events and gender politics time and again.
Devolution
Member
Eh.
A lot of the ideas espoused by various MRAs are diametrically opposed to the gains and goals of feminism.
Simon Belmont
Banned
I was going to say "Where's all the academic literature concerning Men's issues" but then I remembered it's all over the place and it's written by feminists.
I believe more men succeed in their attempts while more women make attempts, and one likely explanation might be the difference in the methods chosen. I'm not sure how this is a men's issue vs a mental health issue, other than the fact that Traditional Gender Roles might play a hand in why men might make attempts in the first place. As feminism is largely a movement concerned with breaking apart Traditional Gender Roles perhaps it's a good ideology to support?
So again, you acknowledge there is a wide diversity of beliefs, but instead choose to base your judgements on some random tweet or because you don't like #yesallwomen for "some reason". Your posts make you come across as someone dealing with a large amount of cognitive dissonance.
If you really want to cringe, read one of their originating manifestos, "The Manipulated Man." Written in 1971 by a female author, which the men's rights types love to point out.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1905177178/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Just look at how highly rated this book is, by 100+ people on Amazon.
If you read the content, you'll be outright disturbed. It blathers on about how stupid and petty women are. Just repeatedly makes vicious sexist statements intertwined with more detailed descriptions of the alleged behavior of female human.
It's definitely a real "movement," but how large it is can be exaggerated by how loud they are. However it's big enough to IMO, be concerning.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1905177178/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Just look at how highly rated this book is, by 100+ people on Amazon.
If you read the content, you'll be outright disturbed. It blathers on about how stupid and petty women are. Just repeatedly makes vicious sexist statements intertwined with more detailed descriptions of the alleged behavior of female human.
It's definitely a real "movement," but how large it is can be exaggerated by how loud they are. However it's big enough to IMO, be concerning.
Is there research to support this?
Well they should be fighting the same fight. It's too bad MRA exists in spite of feminism
Devolution
Member
The reverse is downrated great books because they're from a feminist POV.
CornBurrito
Member
Well yeah, if you see no value in changing social attitudes to make things easier for everyone then I guess you would struggle to understand why people do see value in it.
User 100115
Banned
I honestly thing the suicide thing is partly because of the more destructive methods chosen (example, guns vs pills) but has a lot to do with the idea that depression and seeking help for it makes a man 'weak' and that talking about their feelings or even acknowledging they exist is 'wussy' or 'womanly'. So I very much blame Traditional gender roles for that as well.
Maybe my experience of feminism has been coloured in some ways even if I do occasionally think they make good points. To give an example I am critical of people who claim to be proponents of something when they initially played lip service to it or at worst talked about the exact opposite. A good example being people talking about the toxic effects of masculinity in the Elliot Rogers threads, yet weeks and months earlier they engaged in constant virgin shaming that can fuel thoughts like that that Rogers had. This is something I know I called out and occasionally other posters too. As for reading a book not making you a Don Juan, well that's obvious. If some enterprising writer wants to make the "Feminist guide to improving your dating life" maybe they can set some men on what they believe is the write path whilst making a killing.
Also as for singling out feminism. I am critical of MRA groups. I think they come across as a bit slut shamey and since that leads to things like false rape confessions they aren't doing themselves any favours.
Men are less likely to seek help, which is a factor in the high rate.
Unfortunately, what you've said here isn't true. At least, not in my experience. From what I've seen, raising male related issues in a feminist forum is nearly always met with derision of WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ and shit like that. There is far too much gender tribalism in gender politics.
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