Support NeoGAF

[Anteo]

2. Do characters still snap to the ledge ala Brawl (In other words, you clearly miss the ledge but the game is lenient as fuck)? Can every character grab the ledge even if they are facing away from the ledge? Basically will the game adopt Brawl ledge mechanics or Melee/64 mechanics? Or something completely different?

ANSWER: Yes.

Question: do we have footage of characters auto snapping to the ledge in the middle of their up b? So far all footage I've seen seems to have ledge interaction in Brawl+ style: characters can grab it facing away, but you still need to sweetspot it or you are gonna fly past it. All of the up b recovery footage I've seen the characters go as low/far away as possible before using their up...

 

[Smiles and Cries]

how do your guys think SSB4 will be recieved by this community?

after watching the long documentary (well worth it) it just seems like Nintendo did everything they could to gank this community.

I'm surprise Brawl was even adopted by some, then the whole project M stuff

I can't wait to read about how these invitations happened when the guys are free to talk about it

 

[Anteo]

how do your guys think SSB4 will be recieved by this community?

after watching the long documentary (well worth it) it just seems like Nintendo did everything they could to gank this community.

I'm surprise Brawl was even adopted by some, then the whole project M stuff

I can't wait to read about how these invitations happened when the guys are free to talk about it

A new community will rise around SSB4, with some faces from the other games (in particular, sponsored players that get told they can't just play one smash game and remain sponsored). Meanwhile the Melee community will hope for a VC release of the european version of Melee for WiiU, and Brawl players will pray their community doesnt die because of SSB4

 

[Anth0ny]

Question: do we have footage of characters auto snapping to the ledge in the middle of their up b? So far all footage I've seen seems to have ledge interaction in Brawl+ style: characters can grab it facing away, but you still need to sweetspot it or you are gonna fly past it. All of the up b recovery footage I've seen the characters go as low/far away as possible before using their up...

It looks that way, but I doubt the player in all of the videos is capable of perfectly sweet spotting upb's to a point where M2K would be jealous. I'm very sure auto snapping is back, but we'll know for sure on Tuesday.

 

[georly]

I'll add your questions to my secondary list later. Thanks for posting them. Keep it up!

 

[Smiles and Cries]

A new community will rise around SSB4, with some faces from the other games (in particular, sponsored players that get told they can't just play one smash game and remain sponsored). Meanwhile the Melee community will hope for a VC release of the european version of Melee for WiiU, and Brawl players will pray their community doesnt die because of SSB4

interesting, how does the sponsored player thing work?

 

[Anteo]

interesting, how does the sponsored player thing work?

That's just speculation on my part. I dont see why a sponsor would want a player only in one game unless it's big enough (lol/dota). While many smashers want to believe in the #OneUnit thing, the truth is that the communiries around all 3 games do not overlap that much because of the gameplay being different (slow vs fast, the way combo work, the way the spacing works, the time spend on the neutral game, how fast you need to move around the map, etc) so they atract differnet crowds.

Melee is big for smash but still small compared to other more traditional fighting games so having your players that represent your brand to play more than one game with different communities is something that you really want. I'm sure a new community with new faces will rise from the guys and kids that start playing smash4, so just like 64 vs Melee vs Brawl, the communities wont overlap that much.

 

[icy_eagle]

macd said on twitter he'd likely pick zelda, so you could add that to the op if you'd like Intelliheath

 

[Popnbake]

Hopefully the lines won't be too bad for BB demos.

how do your guys think SSB4 will be recieved by this community?

after watching the long documentary (well worth it) it just seems like Nintendo did everything they could to gank this community

Going by Nintendo's e3 invitational and controller support, SSB4 is looking to have a great reception from both casual and competitive communities.

 

[theprodigy]

That's just speculation on my part. I dont see why a sponsor would want a player only in one game unless it's big enough (lol/dota). While many smashers want to believe in the #OneUnit thing, the truth is that the communiries around all 3 games do not overlap that much because of the gameplay being different (slow vs fast, the way combo work, the way the spacing works, the time spend on the neutral game, how fast you need to move around the map, etc) so they atract differnet crowds.

Melee is big for smash but still small compared to other more traditional fighting games so having your players that represent your brand to play more than one game with different communities is something that you really want. I'm sure a new community with new faces will rise from the guys and kids that start playing smash4, so just like 64 vs Melee vs Brawl, the communities wont overlap that much.

Er
Melee is behind only SF/Marvel and is almost certainly passing the latter soon

 

[Regiruler]

There were 3 commentators I thought. OP is missing one.

 

[Cody_D165]

There were 3 commentators I thought. OP is missing one.

It is?

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Er
Melee is behind only SF/Marvel and is almost certainly passing the latter soon

Sponsorship-wise, Smash is probably better than SF/Marvel. Melee had the highest stream count last Evo right?

 

[jwluther]

If Pyrosphere is playable, what are Ridley's Boss mechanics?

Come on. Believe.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Come on. Believe.

I believe that Ridley wouldn't be able to stay airborn in place as long as his shadow indicated he was in the Direct if he was playable.

 

[Anteo]

I believe that Ridley wouldn't be able to stay airborn in place as long as his shadow indicated he was in the Direct if he was playable.

dev tools. Or he is in place throwing projectiles like on his Super Metroid boss fights

Er
Melee is behind only SF/Marvel and is almost certainly passing the latter soon

Evo numbers =/= all around numbers. Plus that's one game vs 2 and posibly more games and other fgc sponsored players generally pick at least a couple of these games. Melee has a lot of momentum this year, but compared to a refreshed SFIV, a MvC3 that even with no support from Capcom has better support from players than Melee at it's non-nintendo supported years (dont want to compare to this year yet) and new other games like KI that get picked up by the same sponsored players that play SF and MVC... I dont think we can call Melee bigger than most games yet, and even if you could, it's still just one game.

 

[Anony]

the thing that bothers me the most is geoff k; he literally adds nothing to the event
we have 3 commentators that know the community and smash, they should be 'hosting', or rather, they will be anyways

 

[Spinluck]

2. Do characters still snap to the ledge ala Brawl (In other words, you clearly miss the ledge but the game is lenient as fuck)? Can every character grab the ledge even if they are facing away from the ledge? Basically will the game adopt Brawl ledge mechanics or Melee/64 mechanics? Or something completely different?

ANSWER: Yes.

Brawl was far more lenient, this doesn't look that bad.

This is more lenient than Melee, but it looks pretty toned down there.

 

[Hatchtag]

I believe that Ridley wouldn't be able to stay airborn in place as long as his shadow indicated he was in the Direct if he was playable.

Maybe Ridley's playable, and it's

Spoiler

Alfonso

Meta Ridley on Pyrosphere instead.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

Melee has a lot of momentum this year, but compared to a refreshed SFIV, a MvC3 that even with no support from Capcom has better support from players than Melee at it's non-nintendo supported years (dont want to compare to this year yet) and new other games like KI that get picked up by the same sponsored players that play SF and MVC... I dont think we can call Melee bigger than most games yet, and even if you could, it's still just one game.

Melee is popular, but I doubt it's ever going to be more popular than it is now. The problem with Melee is that it's an old game with a limited roster of characters, outdated graphics and sound, and there's not much left to discover. It's MvC2. It's Third Strike. It's original Killer Instinct. People will love it forever, but it's eventually going to start lagging behind unless Nintendo endorses it, which will never happen with a new game on the way. They'll passively support it, but not endorse it.

Almost all of the currently popular games in the FGC are the most recent. Melee matches are great, sure, but there isn't as much intrigue as a new game could offer. Project M offers that in spades, but there's a bit of stigma attached to it. Project M will always widely be considered a mod, and Nintendo will never support it, acknowledge it or allow it to be played in big events (Not that it would be allowed in the first place).

I believe that after this upcoming invitational, a lot more people (both casual and competitive) are gonna want to see Smash 4 played at competitive events than Melee, and unless some of the big names from all the games gravitate to it, the Smash community will struggle.

Part of this is on Sakurai (He's got to make it in such a way that every Smash player will want to play it)

Part of it is on Nintendo (They'll have to continue this trend of supporting the Smash community, it's working wonders so far)

Part of it is on the Smash community (Even if the game doesn't quite entice you competitively as much your favorite Smash game does, you can't shun the game or that'll just set back the community big-time).

That said, as of now everything's coming along very smoothly, and I agree with you in that a new community will rise around SSB4.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

thanks for taking the time to reply to some of my questions guys.

I cannot wait for Tuesday

Is it the speed the only thing going for Melee vs Brawl?

would anyone want to see an option to customize speed in SSB4 like they do items

something like Normal >> Fast >> Melee >> Hyper

 

[Anteo]

thanks for taking the time to reply to some of my questions guys.

I cannot wait for Tuesday

Is it the speed the only thing going for Melee vs Brawl?

would anyone want to see an option to customize speed in SSB4 like they do items

something like Normal >> Fast >> Melee >> Hyper

No, many mechanics are different, off the top of my head (I wish I had gifs to show this)

Speed
Melee is faster than Brawl

Shield
Brawl shield is safer, a lot of defensive mechanics are safer (rolls, spotdodges)

Hitstun (time you can't act after being hit):
Melee - Characters can't act for quite a while after being hit, but not as long as brawl.
Brawl - Stun is low, on top of that you can air dodge out of hit stun after 13 frames meaning that even if you get hit by a high stun move, you can get out really fast.
Edit: Beats got better info from the smash wiki

Ledge Mechanics
Melee - If you up b just below the ledge, you can fly past the ledge and land on the stage. Also, when rolling from the ledge, no one can grab it until you finish your roll animation (makes it kind of mindless, no need for timing it right, just hold it early and roll when they get close)
Brawl - If you up b just below the ledge, the up b is canceled as soon as you get close enough to the edge and you will grab it inmediatly and get invulnerability, meaning it's much safer and kind of mindless (just up b anywhere, you cant get punished). Also, when rolling from the ledge, other players can grab it much much earlier.

Air Dodge
Melee - If you air dodge, you go into a helpless state (cant act, just like when you up b). Aditionally, if you input a direction, you will move in that direction while air dodging, even if you were going in the oposite direction, allowing for techs as Wavelanding
Brawl - If you air dodge, you can act after the animation is finished. You conserve your momentum so it's imposible to jump forwards and air dodge backwards without using a second jump to change your momentum.

Grabing Items out of the air
Melee - Need to press the grab button
Brawl - grabs from aerials and dashes.

And many more.. So it's not only about the speed, it's also about the mechanics, movement options and a lot of other stuff.

 

[Beats]

Is it the speed the only thing going for Melee vs Brawl?

There's also this:

Brawl has the same hitstun multiplier Melee has. However, when hit, characters can now air dodge after 13 frames and attack after 25 frames out of hitstun, regardless of the actual amount of hitstun they sustained; this new mechanic drastically reduces the amount of actual hitstun characters have to sustain upon being hit, especially at higher knockback (for example, while a character sustaining 100 units of knockback in Melee will be in hitstun for 40 frames, in Brawl that character will be in actual hitstun for only 13 frames if they air dodge or 25 frames if they attack, and if that knockback value is doubled, while the Melee character would sustain an inescapable 80 frames of hitstun, the Brawl character will still only sustain 13 or 25 frames of hitstun)

There are a few other things, but I can't remember.

 

[GamerJM]

It is?

The D1 pic had trouble loading for me. I had to reload the page a couple of times for it to come up.

 

[friskykillface]

They should just pick the ridley level right off the bat and wait for him to show up

The mystery ends next week D:

 

[Anth0ny]

Melee is popular, but I doubt it's ever going to be more popular than it is now. The problem with Melee is that it's an old game with a limited roster of characters, outdated graphics and sound, and there's not much left to discover. It's MvC2. It's Third Strike. It's original Killer Instinct. People will love it forever, but it's eventually going to start lagging behind unless Nintendo endorses it, which will never happen with a new game on the way. They'll passively support it, but not endorse it.

There's more new things being discovered in Melee in 2014 than UMVC3. Melee is far from stagnant, which is amazing considering it's age.

Its at it's most popular... 13 YEARS AFTER LAUNCH

 

[JediLink]

Is it the speed the only thing going for Melee vs Brawl?

would anyone want to see an option to customize speed in SSB4 like they do items

something like Normal >> Fast >> Melee >> Hyper

It's not like Melee is just on fast-forward or anything. Brawl is slower because the pace of the match is slower. Despite the goal of the game being to KO people, apparently Sakurai wanted to do everything in his power to make that incredibly hard to do. Recoveries are ridiculously better, stupid ledge mechanics make it 10x easier to get back to the stage, combos don't exist because you can air dodge out of hitstun, etc. In Brawl, it's not uncommon for characters to live up to like 150%. Shit just takes forever.

There are also different mechanics that make movement just feel more sluggish. Wavedashing is obviously impossible, and dash dancing is a lot worse. Fall speeds are universally slower. When you jump with Samus, it feels like you can go make a sandwich and come back before she lands on the ground again. And of course, there's the infamous tripping, which is the ultimate momentum killer.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

There's more new things being discovered in Melee in 2014 than UMVC3. Melee is far from stagnant, which is amazing considering it's age.

With only 25 characters and 13 long years there's only so much you can find that hasn't already been found. Whereas with UMVC3, not only is the game only 3 years old, but you've got 48 characters to choose from on 3-character teams. There are so many combinations (17296 if my math is correct) and so many match-ups that it's almost impossible for there to be any fighting game that has as much left to be discovered. I mean, have people already mastered how to play against a Super-Skrull, Iron Man, Spencer team with a Firebrand, Phoenix, Chris Redfield team? I don't see how this can really be argued, but opinions.

Its at it's most popular... 13 YEARS AFTER LAUNCH

Yep, it's great, but I don't see it getting any more popular. The reason for the spike in popularity is because the stars aligned and a lot of things happened in a short amount of time. The documentary, the money raised for EVO, Nintendo rep pulling it from EVO, the immediate re-entry, the performance at EVO. It was really amazing how all these things intertwined with each other and elevated Melee to what it is now amongst the FGC. The problem is that Melee is a game that is simply outdated. Not in terms of gameplay, which will never become outdated as far as I'm concerned. Outdated in almost every other way though, roster in particular, which is an extremely important aspect of a fighting game. It's the biggest reason people play the newer games over the older ones. It keeps things fresh. Brawl at the height of its popularity was bigger than Melee is now solely because of its roster*, because as we've seen, its gameplay didn't keep people invested. That said, you're just not gonna find Mega Man, Sonic, Snake, Little Mac, Pit, Zero Suit Samus, and Olimar in Melee and considering the type of game Smash is, Melee's roster isn't gonna cut it for a lot of people in 2014.

Spoiler

*and yes, Brawl was more popular, it's the best selling fighting game of all-time for crying out loud and it was on the Wii.

 

[Daschysta]

Anyone else is worried that Nintendo only has 1 title that is available for demoing at Best Buy? Last year they had 3-4 titles. This makes me worried that SSB is pretty much the only WiiU game launching this holiday.

Why would they announce a demo before the game is revealed? IIRC DKCTF demo was announced post announcement. I imagine any other potential demos would be announced that way too. Plus smash will be a shitshow at at best buy as it is, I doubt anyone would be playing anything else.

 

[theprodigy]

Competitive scene for Brawl was never at Melee's current level, that notion is laughable

 

[SliceSabre]

Can't wait to feel like a creepy with my phone camera out.

 

[friskykillface]

I'd be bummed if there were other demos, 4 player free for all would make things go much faster

I can't imagine how long the wind waker E3 demo was for last year since it's just one player

DK/MK8 were two max I think and Mario 3D world was 4 people


Expect lots of people

 

[Revven]

Competitive scene for Brawl was never at Melee's current level, that notion is laughable

Yeah, Brawl only ever got as high as Melee did in its golden age -- aka like 350 entrants at an international tournament. I think that was either Pound V or Apex 2012. There was also one Apex where both games had practically the same amount of entrants yet very little cross pollination between the two games. That miiight have been Apex 2013...

Anyway, I don't think you'll see Melee phase out asap when the new game drops. There's always at least one extra Smash game that's played alongside the new one (see: when Brawl came out Melee was that companion game for a long time) and tournaments in general are heading into the direction of multi-Smash game events. It's hard to find Melee only or Brawl only or Project M only tournaments anymore and that's because single game events are... less popular afaik. And that one game is likely to be Melee (I don't see PM in the long-term with a Nintendo-involved future).

The invitational should be rad.

 

[fredrancour]

Anyone else is worried that Nintendo only has 1 title that is available for demoing at Best Buy? Last year they had 3-4 titles. This makes me worried that SSB is pretty much the only WiiU game launching this holiday.

Smash alone will bring in all the traffic they can handle. I don't think it has any relation to what's coming out this holiday so much as it's a logistical necessity.

 

[xKilltheMx]

So excited to drive to best buy for this.

 

[deeTyrant]

Do we know yet what the control options are gonna be for the best buy demo?

Is it gonna be WiiU Pad + 3 Wii remotes, or do you think they are gonna have Pro Controllers set up?

 

[prog]

https://twitter.com/progducto/status/475058424796151808

oh hi

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

oh hi

Wait...are you THE prog?

Edit: Just checked your post history...Yeah, I guess you are.

 

[Muzy72]

Cross posting from the other thread:

Does the E3 demo have a different playable roster than the Invitational? NOA just tweeted this:

@NintendoAmerica: Play #SmashBros as Peach and rule! Demo the #WiiU game at @BestBuy on 6/11 & 6/14. Learn more: http://t.co/U8a31DU3tz

Peach isn't playable in the Invitational AFAIK.

 

[Exterminieren]

Cross posting from the other thread:

Does the E3 demo have a different playable roster than the Invitational? NOA just tweeted this:

@NintendoAmerica: Play #SmashBros as Peach and rule! Demo the #WiiU game at @BestBuy on 6/11 & 6/14. Learn more: http://t.co/U8a31DU3tz

Peach isn't playable in the Invitational AFAIK.

I'd be very surprised if the demo didn't have an expanded roster. Any reveals in the Digital Event are probably going to be playable.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

oh hi

Have you guys talked with nintendo about the details of the invitational already ? i mean, what kind of commentary they want, some guidelines, schedules, etc ?

 

[georly]

I'd be very surprised if the demo didn't have an expanded roster. Any reveals in the Digital Event are probably going to be playable.

Eh, it's possible but not required. It would make SENSE for newcomers to be playable in the demo, but i also wouldn't be surprised if they weren't.

 

[C.Olimar788]

I'd be very surprised if the demo didn't have an expanded roster. Any reveals in the Digital Event are probably going to be playable.

Wow, that would be like the most hype thing they could do. "You see this awesome Newcomer? Go to Best Buy and you can play as him/her tomorrow! You can thank us later."

 

[Anth0ny]

Do we know yet what the control options are gonna be for the best buy demo?

Is it gonna be WiiU Pad + 3 Wii remotes, or do you think they are gonna have Pro Controllers set up?

Canadian best buy rep said pro controllers. That was before the GameCube controller adapter was announced, though.




And Pac man is totally gonna be playable.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

I have never played competitively with any Smash Bros. game. I have no one to play against IRL and Brawl's online sucked. Am I going to get demolished when I go to this thing? A large part of my motivation to go is to get the coin (to go along with my Year of Luigi coin), but I also want to play the demo. Last year, the people playing Mario Kart weren't the best (or at least the guy I was against wasn't). Is there any chance that I will be against people like me?

 

[PreyingShark]

I have never played competitively with any Smash Bros. game. I have no one to play against IRL and Brawl's online sucked. Am I going to get demolished when I go to this thing? A large part of my motivation to go is to get the coin (to go along with my Year of Luigi coin), but I also want to play the demo. Last year, the people playing Mario Kart weren't the best (or at least the guy I was against wasn't). Is there any chance that I will be against people like me?

The number of people who are actually competent at Smash is pretty small so I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Karsticles]

If I were Sakurai, I would not say a single goddamn thing about Ridley at E3. :-D

 

[NamikazeBurst]

The number of people who are actually competent at Smash is pretty small so I wouldn't worry too much.

I can beat the highest level CPU on Melee, that has got to count for something, right? I guess as long as I get my coin and have fun with a new character, that is all that matters.

 

[Anth0ny]

I can beat the highest level CPU on Melee, that has got to count for something, right? I guess as long as I get my coin and have fun with a new character, that is all that matters.

You're probably better than most people that will be going to this thing.

Last year there were tons of kids who seem to have never held a controller before.

 

[Cody_D165]

I can beat the highest level CPU on Melee, that has got to count for something, right? I guess as long as I get my coin and have fun with a new character, that is all that matters.

Competitive players, if you face any, are very likely to beat you. Playing against a CPU is radically different than a human opponent.

With that said, I wouldn't worry about it too much. You'll be playing 4-player free-for-alls. The odds of you playing a group of competitive players are slim when you consider the size of the Smash fanbase. It's going to be a brand new game and everyone's gonna be there to have fun. Items and Final Smashes are gonna be on, stage hazards likely on many stages, and it will probably be time matches instead of stock. The demo is gonna be far different from a standard competitive environment, so just have fun and do your best.