Zoe
Member
It doesn't seem like the OP is interested in addressing any questions of that sort.
Is anyone else concerned about Far Cry 4's villain? (LGBT issue + mild spoilers)
- Thread starter Garrett Hawke
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It doesn't seem like the OP is interested in addressing any questions of that sort.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Because there aren't enough games where the protagonist isn't white, or straight, or a man. Yet the audience is not solely white straight males.
Think, for example, about people playing Animal Crossing. Many will try to model their character after themselves - it is a role play game, to an extent. Yet until New Leaf, there was no way for darker skinned players to give their character dark skin. That can now be done via tanning in New Leaf, or the Mii Mask - both of which are pretty shitty workarounds, as they're not integrated into the content and tanning requires a lot of work - but it's an example of how people want to see themselves represented in games.
out0v0rder
Member
this
Garrett Hawke
Member
I've already gone over how this character appears "stereotypically" gay in the OP. And I'm saying that this is a safe assumption to make, as Far Cry 3 featured horribly stereotyped characters. So it wouldn't surprise me if the worst traits of stereotypes made their way into Far Cry 4, hence why I'm operating on the idea that the villain is gay.
Seraph_Nicholas
Member
Hm. Say that he didn't seem gay to me, compare him to a character who's only sexual attraction is arguably his sister, and a character who fetishizes torture, regardless of the gender of his subject...
And, somehow my comment was supporting the vilification of homosexuals?
There are plenty of fucked off manifestations of sexuality that are not a normal emergence of someones natural self, like homosexuality, transsexualism, etc. Things that result from trauma, or damaged personalities getting all tangled up in their ideas of sex. This is the impression the villain gave me. Not a gay man who is an evil pervert. A strange, and therefore unsettling and unpredictable loose cannon, because even he may not know who or what the hell he is.
And, somehow my comment was supporting the vilification of homosexuals?
There are plenty of fucked off manifestations of sexuality that are not a normal emergence of someones natural self, like homosexuality, transsexualism, etc. Things that result from trauma, or damaged personalities getting all tangled up in their ideas of sex. This is the impression the villain gave me. Not a gay man who is an evil pervert. A strange, and therefore unsettling and unpredictable loose cannon, because even he may not know who or what the hell he is.
If you read my next post after that one, I go into a bit more detail. There's nothing wrong with white characters, it's a matter of the particular storytelling conventions Ubisoft used and how the white characters are depicted relative to everyone else.
"Mighty whitey" stories are ones where a white outsider is brought into a non-white culture and proceeds to be the best at everything, often being the only heroic character with any real power to change the course of events. It's a pretty old and widely used story archetype, and Far Cry 3 fits the description to a T.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Did anyone other than OP feel that the villain felt like a gay stereotype?
Maybe he was projection his own latent homophobia onto the game?
Maybe he was projection his own latent homophobia onto the game?
ab.aeterno
Member
Yep. And what is this bs, exactly?
Except for the implied sex with women, relationships with women, and marriage to a woman, yeah, he certainly could be gay. For fuck's sake, if you're going to use this argument, pick a better character.
I wouldn't be surprised at that choice of language. In another thread, he wanted it justified why LGBT people deserve representation more than other minorities.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Personal attacks are the easiest way to concede in an argument you don't have an answer to.
But aren't you doing exactly what you say Far Cry 4 is doing? You are stereotyping a character you have yet to learn much about. Yet decide to stereotype the way he dresses etc. It's not just gay people that act and dress that way yet you seem to deem it is. That's just wait until we see and hear more before stereotyping a computer game character.
Uno Venova
Banned
i mean I'm not gay and i don't like blood on my shoes either
or any stains for that matter
or any stains for that matter
And the majority of the population is white. Should games enforce positive discrimination to? Also I said american, not white american. Just so happens that the guy in the game is white.
and what has sexuality got to do with what I posted, although it is the topic of the thread.
and? maybe people should stop being obsessed with labels, appearance, race etc in games. When I play a game and the character is black or anything but a white male, I don't see it as <insert race/label> I see it as a character in a computer game.
you're thread is ridiculous and a mod should lock it, like the other farcry 4 thread on the exact same subject.
I am well aware about this mighty whitey story. Personally I do not care and why should you care to? if the game is fun and you enjoy it then play it. If you find a game that as a white person doing a so called mighty whitey and you have a problem with that, even though you probably would enjoy it, well sucks to be you. I don't see a problem when a western company using a white character since the vast majority of their consumer base is NA and western europe. In FC3 if jason wasn't running around doing all the jungle stuff, we wouldn't have a game, who cares if he was black or white.
Games are games, not films that promote racism.
Garrett Hawke
Member
No, I'm not. I'm working on the basis that FC3 featured cardboard stereotype cut-outs for characters, and speculating that they might do the same this time around.
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
Nope.
His clothing look like some fashion maniac narcissistic guy.
Never cross my mind that he is gay.
-> Far Cry 3 spoiler
His clothing look like some fashion maniac narcissistic guy.
Never cross my mind that he is gay.
beside, we already got gay/bi villain character in FC3 which not really representing gay/bi stereotype, i don't think ubi going to pull the same trick
T.M. MacReady
NO ONE DENIES MEMBER
Are you allowed to be offended by a scantily clad woman in a movie that came out in 1983 when you have an avatar of a naked woman cupping her breasts from an album cover?
Funny you mention Skyfall. I remember how much backlash there was over that chair scene and as a long time James Bond fan I didn't care all that much. Maybe it's because it was an implication tied in with humor and not beating me over the head with it saying, "James Bond likes dudes." The delivery of the message is key.
Garrett Hawke
Member
72% of NA is white. That leaves roughly 3 in 10 people as not white.
There are not three games in every 10 featuring a non-white protagonist.
Good for you. But some people like to create their characters after themselves, and others are just tired of constantly playing as a straight, white male.
I disagree. But you're welcome to your opinion.
Just because a man is married and has sex with women does not mean he isn't gay or bi. Plenty of men/ women feel uncomfy coming out with what they trully feel. So decide to do what they think is the 'norm' when it clearly isn't. Not saying Drake is either but in life you can never rule anything out.
captainpat
Member
Not to mention their investors. What a fucking joke that people think that "social justice warriors" are stifling the so-called art and creativity of games that go through a very specific process, molded for financial/profit reasons to appease a certain, limited demographic.
So they shouldn't have to cater to minorities, as long as they cater to your white male tastes, right? How nice. Forget catering to minorities then -- how about not depicting brown people like savages in games like Resident Evil 5 and FC4? And as mentioned, the developers' "creative vision" in AAA titles are already compromised by focus group testing, market analysis and shareholder expectations. You're full of shit if you think your typical white male hero fighting off the savage hordes in the Congo is some unadulterated pure artistic vision from the mind of some singular visionary. Please.
Some of them think they're the only ones who buy and play video games. The rest of us don't matter and are destroying their "art" and hobby.
This reductionist view of the OP's post has been addresses over a dozen times by numerous people. Read the last nine pages before making flippant remarks.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Yes, because she designed the album cover herself i.e. it's her choice. I don't think I need to remind you that George Lucas was male. Or that Leia was constantly getting rescued, despite being a warrior princess. Or that there are very few female speaking roles in Star Wars.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I've never heard anything about this before, so I can't really comment. Sorry. ^^Was there outrage over Dylan in DR3? He was a far more offensive character, at least by OP's standards.
Kittenwithbeer
Banned
There's a problem when people are attacking a game and its developers when they haven't seen anything to confirm what they're afraid of yet...
I'm not living under a rock. People in this industry complain over the most ridiculous things. All we've seen of this character is a small trailer and his apparel and already everyone is up in arms over nothing. Why should developers even bother with LGBT characters when people throw a hissy-fit every time over literally nothing.
The funniest part of this is that we don't even know if the character is gay and I could seriously care less about his sexuality. The dude's rocking a purple suit and a cool haircut. The devs won't handle the game poorly because that would be brand suicide. Seeing all of the Twitter rage and threads like this on the Internet; do you really think they'd insult homosexuals like that with their character?
People want gay characters in video games? Here's a (potential) gay character in a AAA game. Wish (potentially) granted.
ab.aeterno
Member
I know, but at that point it requires extreme mental gymnastics to circumvent the author's obvious intent. I'm fairly sure Naughty Dog didn't write him to be a closeted gay guy, but used the common trope shorthand for rogueish hero.
Are you absolutely sure that these are the exact motivations behind making an antagonist gay? For the express purpose of making the player feel uncomfortable and to highlight homosexuality as a depraved act?
If that is what is happening, then I agree that it's wrong. But is it what's happening and why it's happening?
Garrett Hawke
Member
The devs handled stereotypes in Far Cry 3 awfully. White character who comes to the island and proceeds to kill hundreds of natives - because the natives can't do it themselves. Incestuous, bikini-clad native princess that sleeps with the main character.
Need I go on?
What the fuck man, RE5 takes place in AFRICA
AFRICA
AFRICA. Who else do you want there? Chinese Zombies? White Zombies?
Jesus.
I guess Carrie Fisher was forced at gunpoint to wear that Golden Bikini, right?
T.M. MacReady
NO ONE DENIES MEMBER
Gotcha. I'll leave you to your irony and mixed messages. This thread has gone off the rails. Try not to lose any sleep over the fictional character your making stereotyped assumptions about.
I'm really looking forward to playing this game.
Would be some twist tho.
njean777
Member
If you haven't played it yet, then really all you are doing is assuming. For all we know they could have learned from the past, wait until the game comes out and then you can complain.
Was there outrage over Dylan in DR3? He was a far more offensive character, at least by OP's standards.
Is this the guy who rapes your friend? I never saw him in those clothes...
Kittenwithbeer
Banned
I didn't and still don't see it that way, but I guess it doesn't matter. We'll just have to see how Far Cry 4 is. No point in discussing this further, in my opinion. Playing the game is the only way to solve all of this so I guess we'll have to wait until then.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Tomb Raider 2013 takes place in Japan. Yet you kill people of a variety of races.
Setting something in one place isn't an excuse for everyone to be that race. And even if you want to leave it like that, people should take into account how it looks, having a white person come in and kill a bunch of the native population.
No. But I don't think she had much say in constantly being kidnapped and rescued by men.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I hope it's good, and I hope that my fears are unfounded. I'm sure it will be fun to play. But it doesn't change that I'm thinking about the social aspect of it.
The game is fun to play, and I do enjoy and play it. I can do all of this and also dislike some elements of it.
AGAIN, I am not mad that the main character is white. I am annoyed that the game depicts basically every non-white character is powerless or cannon fodder, with white people being essentially the only ones capable of moving the plot forward.
I don't think this is part of an overt racist agenda on Ubisoft's part, they just got lazy recycled a type of plot that carries some not-so-good implications. They did try to make the "twist" that Jason is a bad person too, but that was kind of drowned out by the whole "LOOK AT ALL THE COOL SHIT YOU CAN DO" factor.
ab.aeterno
Member
Hey, if someone had the gumption to write that with that intent in a AAA blockbuster, I'd say kudos. But I doubt they'd do so without any hint of that being the case because otherwise it's lost characterization that no one would realistically pick up, since there's literally no evidence to suggest that.
Last of Us DLC spoilers:
Ellie is as close as we've ever come to subverting character assumptions. But, unlike our hypothetical, they never showed her being much of anything -- if they'd showed her being romantic or physical with males on a consent basis across games then did that reveal, people would be confused for good reason. wouldn't be good writing.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
So I need to complain about before the actual realease so I can make people aware of something that is yet to happen or proved.
It took place on an island off the coast of Japan. The reason there was a variety of races is because of all the ship-wrecks. That would not have worked how Resident Evil 5 was set up unless a plane randomly crashed with a melting pot of culture on it.
captainpat
Member
Better safe than sorry.
Uno Venova
Banned
Is the stereotype that natives need help to take over pirates invading their island?
LiquidNarwhal
Banned
This thread isn't even about video games anymore, this is just OP pushing a personal agenda.
So you want Umbrella corporation to gather up a bunch of multinational group of people, infect them with virus, then fly em up to Africa where we, as exclusively straight white male protagonists, kill them?
Someone fund this game!
Did you even play the game?
Garrett Hawke
Member
I know. And what I'm saying is that this is an example of how to set a game in a foreign locale, starring a white character, and not have it come across as a little... worrying.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I personally think that the Grass is greener on the other side though. Being into having sex with the opposite sex is not a guarantee to be "integrated". I sure as hell don't feel accepted. I don't think most of my friends would feel accepted if they said what they were really into. Between the very plausible theory that all human beings basically are bisexuals at a deep sub conscious level and the notion that our descended gene pools come from Bonobo Apes as much as Chimps, it makes sense. Bonobo's are origastic primates that have sex with each other in all configurations and also incest. The only form of sex they don't have is Mother-Son sex, but everything else goes. Like Chimps, we share 98,4% of our genome with the Bonobo. We're closer related to each other than the African Elephant is to the Indian Elephant.
Between feeling shame for ones physical appearances, many people probably also feel some sort of shame over their personal fetishes. Things which they admit to will never be accepted in the general sphere.
You're not your sexuality, it's just a part of you. That's what I feel. My best friend is gay and I don't think he is playing for some other team or has to have some win for his "people". In everything he is like me except he likes to have sex with dudes. I don't defferiantiate between it that much more than ones preference for Coke Versus Pepsi. It's just a thing.
Though I do notice that he has an afinity for characters who are gay. For example he is obssesed about the theory that Ryu from Shenmue is gay as he ignores all advances from women in those games. I think it's fair to want to relateability, but I also think that if you look at it in the broader perspective the FC4 villain is a brave move. It's a move that has previously been inhabited by Middle Eastern/African/Russian/Eastern European strong men with sadistic tendencies. Now you have a completely different character that spins those around.
We don't hate Russian people because we fought evil russians in Call of Duty. I don't think people will hate gays because of FC4. At least I hope not.
Chill out. Relax, Instead of living in fear realize that things are actually moving in a positive direction. Not all over the world, but in many places in the US and Europe the winds are changing, and that's fantastic. As others have mentioned the villain in Skyfall was a superb uniquely villain by Bond standards, and his sexuality reflected his character well. Bigots being uncomfortable is unfortunately a part of it. One I have no idea on how to deal with.
But I will tell you this, I am def more interested in FC4 because of this gay villain because it's something different. That's what I am here for. Art is honestly expressing yourself through fictional things. Stereotypes, anti stereotypes, provoking, thought provoking. Everything is fair game in art, and it's why we have obsessed over it for thousands of years getting angry at things that are not part of the real world.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Yes, lmao. I completed it in one sleepless night with a friend.
I never mentioned RE5. It has some white enemies too.
Between this thread and the last one jumping to the conclusion that the villain was white, it feels like people are rushing to label this game as some variety of offensive before they even know who the characters are or why they're doing anything. If I'm going to be bothered by something, I'd rather it be about what a game is, instead of what a game might be.
I understand that Far Cry 3 bothered a lot of people, and that's not unreasonable. But perhaps that game is more an outlier than an indication of a franchise mission to demean minorities? Even when hearing discussion of that game, I can't help but think of the Rock Paper Shotgun interview with its writer, who seemed to firmly believe that the game satirized and undermined all the stereotypes people found it guilty of, both in terms of race and in terms of being a violent action game.
Considering how poorly that message came across, they didn't succeed at that goal as writers. But even from what we've learned at E3, they're trying to correct the most obvious mistakes that were made, since as we can see now, the protagonist is not a racial outsider. Ubisoft's been one of the most progressive publishers outside of Far Cry 3 (most notably with Assassin's Creed), so I'm willing to wait to learn more before I jump on them for negatively stereotyping homosexuals.
I understand that Far Cry 3 bothered a lot of people, and that's not unreasonable. But perhaps that game is more an outlier than an indication of a franchise mission to demean minorities? Even when hearing discussion of that game, I can't help but think of the Rock Paper Shotgun interview with its writer, who seemed to firmly believe that the game satirized and undermined all the stereotypes people found it guilty of, both in terms of race and in terms of being a violent action game.
Considering how poorly that message came across, they didn't succeed at that goal as writers. But even from what we've learned at E3, they're trying to correct the most obvious mistakes that were made, since as we can see now, the protagonist is not a racial outsider. Ubisoft's been one of the most progressive publishers outside of Far Cry 3 (most notably with Assassin's Creed), so I'm willing to wait to learn more before I jump on them for negatively stereotyping homosexuals.
drak_dreamer
Member
Yes and yes
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