captainpat
Member
Awesome, so where are my playable queer heroes that aren't because of customized characters?
Is anyone else concerned about Far Cry 4's villain? (LGBT issue + mild spoilers)
- Thread starter Garrett Hawke
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Awesome, so where are my playable queer heroes that aren't because of customized characters?
Red Chocobo
Banned
If the bad guy in a game just happens to be gay, I don't see the problem.
If he was the bad guy because he was gay. Then THAT would be a problem. But I doubt that will ever be the case. So it's a non-issue to me.
If he was the bad guy because he was gay. Then THAT would be a problem. But I doubt that will ever be the case. So it's a non-issue to me.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Every character that doesn't come out and expressly state that they're heterosexual now and forever is as queer as you can imagine them.
pokeystaples
Banned
Is the villain in this game playable?
Also, are we ignoring (TLoU Spoilers)
Ellie as a playable queer character? Or Bill as a queer hero
Garrett Hawke
Member
DLC title. Still absolutely awesome, but it wasn't revealed until (TLoU DLC Spoilers)
the DLC that Ellie was gay. And there was backlash - people were annoyed and felt like they'd been tricked.
Druckmann
More of this please.
Woo-Fu
Banned
That wouldn't be a problem either. It is actually a common plot in fiction.
What would be a problem is if it states that everybody who is gay is a villain. Even then if you position that as the thought/belief of a fictional organization/person it is OK. There is plenty of persecution like that portrayed in games(and every other form of fiction).
When you start trying to police how fictional characters are allowed to think/behave then you have crossed over a line. Call it bad art if you'd like, but it isn't "wrong" or something that shouldn't be done or allowed.
Garrett Hawke
Member
It's not as simple as just coming out. There are little hints everywhere that portray characters as heterosexual. Example: Drake in Uncharted. Before you even meet Elena or anything, you get hints from Sully that Drake is straight, just in banter.
Just an example of how there are ways to portray someone as straight without someone "confessing" or showing heterosexual interaction on screen.
This made me lol.
Kittenwithbeer
Banned
There's a handful of homosexual characters and there's even less homosexual villains. As long as Far Cry 4 doesn't make fun of homosexuals (which I'm fairly certain they won't) then there's no reason to get upset. We still don't even know the character's sexuality....
Are you really this miffed about the character being potentially gay and a villain? There's no need. The character's sexuality shouldn't even matter...
Another thread with this bs!?!?
Why does nobody have a problem when straight dudes are portrayed as villains and being rapists etc!? Enough is enough there is nothing to discuss here. calm your sensitivities and overreactions. If Nobody had a problem with Jaba tying the princess up in a little bikini then I think you'll be fine here with this.
Why does nobody have a problem when straight dudes are portrayed as villains and being rapists etc!? Enough is enough there is nothing to discuss here. calm your sensitivities and overreactions. If Nobody had a problem with Jaba tying the princess up in a little bikini then I think you'll be fine here with this.
Seraph_Nicholas
Member
Have we seen the protagonist yet? AFAIK, all we know of his race is that he's scattering his mother's ashes in this country. So... If, say, his parents had emigrated together, then is it still racist? Or, not racist. Problematic, I guess?
BUT ON TOPIC, the villain didn't seem necessarily... Gay, to me. Actually reminded me of Alfred Ashford, but less cartoonish - Warped sexuality as part of everything being warped. Hm... Volgin is this, too, I think. Probably more.
BUT ON TOPIC, the villain didn't seem necessarily... Gay, to me. Actually reminded me of Alfred Ashford, but less cartoonish - Warped sexuality as part of everything being warped. Hm... Volgin is this, too, I think. Probably more.
Woo-Fu
Banned
And maybe all of that is a front, Drake has been in the closet all this time. I'm not going to assume Sully is the authority on Drake's sexuality. I haven't noticed an inability among my friends that I've known to be gay to sling heterosexual banter.
Fiction is about the worst battleground you could choose for this particular struggle.
Yeah, its way too soon to be getting angry about this when we know next to nothing about the character or the game's narrative. In that reveal trailer I got more of a "eurotrash" vibe than anything.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Erm, a lot of people had a problem with that.
Zoe
Member
So what subtlety here has made you assume that the villain is gay?
Woo-Fu
Banned
And if we don't do anything that one or more people might have a problem with then we don't do anything at all ever again.
DING DING DING!
You have just perfectly illustrated for the class WHY gay villains in geek media are sometimes offensive portrayals of gay men. Thank you. Oftentimes, in geek media, a character's homosexuality (often portrayed extremely flamboyantly) is intentionally used as a manifestation of said character's general depravity. That's more than a little problematic. Homosexuality is not a depraved lifestyle.
Again, I do think the OP should have waited until we knew more about this specific character, but considering how often the bolded happens in geek media, it's a valid thing to be concerned about.
captainpat
Member
To me representation isn't just about me seeing people like me doing things it's about other people seeing that as well. And I highly doubt a major of the audience for videogames, and really most mediums won't assume that a character is straight even if there's nothing in the text that says anything about their sexually ( Look up heteronormativity).
Let's not forget that people were already getting outraged thinking that the villain dude is a white guy:
Just to be proven utterly wrong.
What's the point of getting outraged while having basically zero info?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I just assumed he was kind of effeminate. He reminds me of the type of character Ken Jeong would play.
Zoe
Member
I just assumed he was kind of effeminate. He reminds me of the type of character Ken Jeong would play.
We know now that he's absolutely nothing like that guy.
But aren't there even more examples of straight villians which are offensive portrayals of straight men? How is this any different?
Garrett Hawke
Member
No, it's not. Art is a great medium for political ideas.
You've been quoted quite a bit but I'm going to do it again.
I honestly did not get the impression the antagonist was gay in the trailer and even if he is then it really comes down to how it's handled in the game itself. You can have a minority villain without it perpetuating harmful beliefs or stereotypes. For example, if part of the motivation for the antagonist's crimes is tied to hostility or brutality he faced due to his sexuality then the story could present an interesting argument for acceptance and inclusivity.
The concern that the video game audience isn't mature enough for characters like Silva (whose representation was saved by the cyanide pill otherwise it would have been problematic as the series has a long tradition of designing its villains around physical deformities - which is sort of problematic in of itself) is a misleading one. We can't leave the medium undeveloped and in a perpetual juvenile state because a vocal minority has issues with basic human decency. It's the few players who have issues with the topics that are the problem and not the use of the topics themselves. They can learn to deal with it or not but that shouldn't hold the developers from exploring those issues.
Garrett Hawke
Member
The difference is that the sexuality of gay villains is often used to show just how depraved they are, and is often used to make the player/protagonist uncomfortable, which is a shitty thing to do.
If the best way you can think of to make someone uncomfortable is playing to their homophobia then there's a problem.
captainpat
Member
Do straight villains usually get portrayed with and perpetuate straight sterotypes (which don't exist)?
Monocle
Member
For some reason the (possible) stereotype didn't register for me. Maybe because his voice and body language weren't as flamboyant as his outfit? I don't know but I think he looks like a cool villain. I like him better than Vaas already.
If he turns out to be gay, it'll be fine as long as the writing doesn't try to exploit homophobia to make him seem more threatening.
If he turns out to be gay, it'll be fine as long as the writing doesn't try to exploit homophobia to make him seem more threatening.
Woo-Fu
Banned
It isn't up to the medium to assume it, it is up to the audience. If you want to assume that everybody who isn't explicitly homosexual is therefor heterosexual that is on you, not on the medium.
It isn't up to the industry to quantify the sexuality of every fictional character, much less try to come up with some "fair" amount of representation for every form of sexuality out there.
In this particular case I see the original poster trying to arbitrarily limit the artistic expression of the developers of Far Cry 4.
He do not look gay to me. He look like the Joker. And even if he was gay, a gay villain wouldnt be a problem for me. I want more gay characters, and I really do not want only good gay characters. I want gay characters of all sorts that show the reality. I want gay villains that are well constructed and well thought of. If the villain is a crazy guy who kill people and is gay, that's not a problem for me. But if the first characteristic of a character is that he's gay, then that's a problem. Gay is not a personality trait.
Woo-Fu
Banned
You're not trying to express a political idea. You're trying to read one into Far Cry 4 that probably isn't there and then cry foul when it isn't one you support. That makes you the problem twice and Far Cry 4 not the problem ever.
If the portrayal of the main villain is a poorly executed work based upon a negative stereotype then you mention that in your review. You don't become "concerned" before you even know wtf is going on unless you have an agenda.
It's an issue of balance. Straight men don't need any help being positively portrayed in video games because they already are. Straight men are villains, and heroes, and wimps, and strongmen, and everything in between. Welcome to being the majority.
It becomes a problem for minorities when you're constantly relagated to very specific roles in games. In the case of gay men, it's especially problematic when something core about you, your sexuality, is used as a tool to highlight how "bad" you are.
Ooooh, he's eviiil!
He's killed children.
And robbed old people!
He's a Socialist!
And he's gay! Weeeeoeooooeoeoeeeee he might touch your butt!
Garrett Hawke
Member
I believe it is the responsibility of everyone to be tolerant and accepting of other cultures, sexualities, genders etc as long as the things other people are doing aren't hurting anyone.
So yes, it is the developer's responsibility to offer diverse representations in their games because they are selling to a diverse audience. Game development is at the cutting edge of technology and entertainment with a massive audience, so they have a social responsibility to use that audience to further positive change. I'd say the same about anyone in power.
And I'm sorry, but the amount of focus group testing and market analysis that goes into Far Cry 4 already encroaches onto their "artistic expression".
Uno Venova
Banned
There's been a lot of negative backlash on the possibility he is a gay character? I'm assuming in Youtube comments?
HueyFreeman
Banned
OP, I appreciate that you are earnestly trying to discuss this, but I really think we need to find out whether or not he's gay first. I know you mean well, and I recognize you're a member of the LGBT community, but you've made this call based on pretty marginal evidence, and are risking stereotyping.
It's probably a worthwhile conversation, especially given the "average gamer" (though I'm not sure what that term means anymore) but only when we definitely have something to discuss.
It's probably a worthwhile conversation, especially given the "average gamer" (though I'm not sure what that term means anymore) but only when we definitely have something to discuss.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Wrong again. Tolerance doesn't mean catering to. You act like Far Cry 4 is intentionally a scathing indictment of homosexuality thinly disguised as a videogame. For fuck's sake ease down Ripley, you're just grinding the transaxle.
Tolerance means allowing consenting adults to do whatever they like in the privacy of their bedroom. It doesn't mean requiring fiction to provide matching storylines based upon the percentages that exist within their audience.
Sounds to me like what you really want is validation, not just tolerance.
Thanks, royalan, for pointing this out as plainly and succinctly as possible. While I agree it may be too early to tell, I share the same concerns as the OPfrom the cover art though yesterday's trailer. The mincing, decadent, perverted villain whose homosexuality is emblematic of his perversion is a trope whose time has come and gone.
And ... no. "If you want gay characters, some of them might be villains" is bullshit, pure and simple. Degrading cartoon stereotypes are not representation.
So far, it sure looks to me like Ubi is relying on a pretty established set of signs to indicate the kind of character we're getting. Everything's a choice, and it's possible some of Ubi's choices could be concerning to some people. You don't need to agree with that concern to respect it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware they came out recently and said those characters are customisable, and can be transferred from SP to co-op and vice versa (not just abilities but also appearance, again, I may be off course here)
Just maybe wait a little before you start acting all outraged. This kind of 'I'm waiting for something to offend me, go on, offend me' attitude is so damn boring.
Hypereides
Member
Valid opinion, OP. Read it in full.
Just remember there are still rational minded people out there. Basing prejudice towards an antagonist for his sexuality will be the last thing on their minds. For the time being realistically some discrimination within the gaming medium is needless to say unavoidable. Eventually with time it will likely become more tolerant and acceptable.
Quite honestly, the sexual orientation of the Far Cry 4 villain didn't even cross my mind. If he happens to be LGBT - or what not - , then so be it.
Just remember there are still rational minded people out there. Basing prejudice towards an antagonist for his sexuality will be the last thing on their minds. For the time being realistically some discrimination within the gaming medium is needless to say unavoidable. Eventually with time it will likely become more tolerant and acceptable.
Quite honestly, the sexual orientation of the Far Cry 4 villain didn't even cross my mind. If he happens to be LGBT - or what not - , then so be it.
drak_dreamer
Member
Didn't we see the exact post like, 2 weeks ago?
Again with this stupid strawman. I'm fine with a gay villain, but we also need heroes who are gay to counterbalance that... and frankly, I don't think it's going to happen. Following tradition in media, we will continue getting more and more stylish gay villains for the player to kill before a developer risks making the actual main dude a gay man (and offending a significant bigoted audience). From earlier:
This is not exclusive to video games. Yes, people do complain about shitty and offensive portrayals in movies and television, with very good reason. I feel bad for you living under a rock and thinking it's just your precious games coming under attack suddenly and out of nowhere.
Palette Swap
Member
I understand the concern to the extent that the depiction of an unbalanced individual who happens to have (stereotypical) queer mannerisms seems to imply homosexuality is some kind of illness or condition. I'm not sure that's the case here but raising the concern isn't exactly far fetched or worthy of being ridiculed.
In the same vein, and to pick an example from the dark ages, to this day I still find Code Veronica nauseating for its use of transgenderism/identity issues as a result of being a mad asshole. I know it's a Japanese trope, that doesn't mean I have to like it or respect if. Blackface was a trope too. I know it doesn't imply all transgendered or gay people are like that but it doesn't exactly help acceptance or inclusion either. In the end, it's as gratuitous as it is creatively bankrupt.
As for the equal representation argument (representation also means having villains), it feels a bit dishonest in the sense that we're not discussing this in a vacuum. There is a very real context that some people tend to overlook when discussing minority issues by applying a majority viewpoint to them. I'm trying hard to not use the word privilege as I feel it has become too charged as a result of abuse, but that's the gist of it. Let's just say I'll find the equal representation argument fair when :
- being gay isn't used as a slur anymore. Let's not pretend this wouldn't reinforce negative stereotyping.
- having an openly gay hero doesn't raise eyebrows or nobody makes a stink about it. See the example given in the OP.
- being openly gay in real life isn't a source of discrimination anymore.
As long as these simple conditions are not met (and this is true for a load of minorities), I don't believe it's safe to assume homosexuality can or should have the same representation as heterosexuality. Because they're simply not in the same place right now.
(Sorry for the shitty formatting and punctuation and for using "gay" as a catch all term for all LGBT issues, it's been a pretty long day)
In the same vein, and to pick an example from the dark ages, to this day I still find Code Veronica nauseating for its use of transgenderism/identity issues as a result of being a mad asshole. I know it's a Japanese trope, that doesn't mean I have to like it or respect if. Blackface was a trope too. I know it doesn't imply all transgendered or gay people are like that but it doesn't exactly help acceptance or inclusion either. In the end, it's as gratuitous as it is creatively bankrupt.
As for the equal representation argument (representation also means having villains), it feels a bit dishonest in the sense that we're not discussing this in a vacuum. There is a very real context that some people tend to overlook when discussing minority issues by applying a majority viewpoint to them. I'm trying hard to not use the word privilege as I feel it has become too charged as a result of abuse, but that's the gist of it. Let's just say I'll find the equal representation argument fair when :
- being gay isn't used as a slur anymore. Let's not pretend this wouldn't reinforce negative stereotyping.
- having an openly gay hero doesn't raise eyebrows or nobody makes a stink about it. See the example given in the OP.
- being openly gay in real life isn't a source of discrimination anymore.
As long as these simple conditions are not met (and this is true for a load of minorities), I don't believe it's safe to assume homosexuality can or should have the same representation as heterosexuality. Because they're simply not in the same place right now.
(Sorry for the shitty formatting and punctuation and for using "gay" as a catch all term for all LGBT issues, it's been a pretty long day)
Garrett Hawke
Member
Please stop with the personal assertions, it's getting really old.
What I want is equal representation because LGBT people exist, and the media that we consume shouldn't just be dominated by straight characters/stories.
Do you not think it'll be harmful when teens are discovering their sexuality and find that there are only heterosexual rom-coms? Or that even their favourite action movies have a shoe-horned in heterosexual romance?
It's not an issue that's exclusive to video games. There is a general lack of good LGBT representation in media and that's a problem. It has nothing to do with "validation". It has everything to do with the cultural perception of LGBT people, and a massive part of that will come through integrating them into media as well as heterosexual characters are currently integrated.
Uno Venova
Banned
Is the 'gay stereotype' the villain caring about how his shoes look?
captainpat
Member
So basically having varied representation of queer people is "catering to"?
what a load of bullshit. America is usually the targeted audience so they used an american, big deal. Was much better than FC 2 muted character.
also using an american or even a white character does not equate to ubisoft having a shitty record against minorities.
what is peoples problem with white characters, some people just have a chip on their shoulder for no reason.
Dude seriously?
The developers have enough shit to worry about without trying to make sure that every sexuality, race, culture, religion is being represented realistically.
Like 95% of NPCs that you will see in any given game are there for filler, to be shot at, giving the illusion of living world/city/town, and other miscellaneous purposes.
It's NOT the developers responsibility to cater to your culture/sexuality/political ideology/what ever, the developers don't any more shackles to restrict their creative freedom.
I can't believe the amount of entitlement one must feel to believe such nonsense.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I really hope so. I want to be a developer myself, so hopefully I'll have a hand in this personally. I would love it if, in the next decade or so, LGBT people are integrated as well into culture as straight people are now.
I agree. Someone above pointed out that it often seems that with LGBT villains their sexuality is just to reinforce how fucked up they are. Which is a horrible concept to be spreading.
captainpat
Member
What? US is more that just straight white dudes.
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