Why are there still so many white men in video games
- Thread starter Kater
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Check your privilege.
OT: target audiences I'd imagine. Also most devs are middle aged white folks.
Are you trying to be dismissive with a joke that misses the point?
Ok...
Inculcation - to cause (something) to be learned by (someone) by repeating it again and again.
What is learned/gained by making 99% of the protagonists in games super idealized white males even for white males playing the games? (only white men can be heroic?)
To be honest the negative effect has to be some depression/self hate/shame for some people based on the fact that you may never live up to the super idealized characters in the games or the movies etc in real life yet you are supposed to self identify with the characters.
Booty Patrol
Banned
western games are usually at the fault of this
but all the people on the japan side are white
Fahrenheit
Banned
I never said I agree with it. I said its what they do. I'm a white male and is CAC is in the game I'm rolling a female every time. I love unique characters but diversity for diversitys sake is silly.
I'm sorry I'm not trying to be a ass but I'm not sure how you are making the correlation between my post and not taking about video games. Seems like the dialog anymore is how every game is morally wrong for not have a diverse cast.
Angelus Errare
Banned
There aren't enough drugs in the world that would allow me to address some of the posts I've read.
Oh boy, I surely hope people aren't lowering their self-esteem based on video games representation.
Dre_G_Writer
Member
Pretty much this.
With her logic she might as well get mad at eastern developers for making their characters asian or getting mad for barbie making mostly female dolls.
Its for a target audience and that target audience is going to be the biggest audience and that audience is white males for gaming.
maybe if more women and people of color would make games, this wouldnt be a problem. But the fact that there's mostly white males making video games, so they are going to continue to make games from a white male perspective.
Simple as that.
I'm a black male, so I usually make my characters a black male because thats the perspective I know.
watch any let's play, watch any developer interview, watch any game tip video, listen to a gaming podcast, there's a SUPER high chance that it's going to be a white male present.
Its just a straight up numbers game, its more white males than there is anyone else.
The problem with this is that generally when Japanese dev studios do create female protagonists they are only hyper-sexualized white female characters, or helpless little girls so it's not like that's a whole lot better. It would be nice if they made a BLOOD game for next gen consoles.
Not it's not. I challenge you to give me example of a piece of media with diverse representation that ended up being bad exclusively because of it's diversity. Also why is the "default" a white male?
Kurt Angle
Member
western games are usually at the fault of this
on the right i see a bunch of white people and some animals/robots
I agree but at the least they're diverse looking characters. That's a step up from a design that keeps reappearing in western games.
Because at what point does criticizing a game become okay? It seems you get to draw the line at where it can or can't be discussed and I have a problem with that.
Either we allow for the discussion of representation in videogames along with criticism of how videogames look, play, sound, etc or we don't allow the first thus the second should follow.
You have to understand that simply telling someone to go make something themselves is not a good argument and never will be. Go tell that to a music or movie critique and you'll be laughed at.
Yep. I remember being super excited for FFX-2 when I first heard about it, I mean an all girls RPG, sign me up! Then I saw the game.
SecretMoblin
Member
yo but botty's top center there champ
To be fair, X-2 was still a great game. While it suffered from some unfortunate fan service moments the overall gamr along with Yuna, Pain and Rikku was pretty well done. The protagonists still ended up well developed and had interesting arcs, paticularily Yuna who's continued from X.
I found the backlash to the game to be pretty weird.
RockTurtle
Member
have you actually seen the japanese gaming market to make such a claim?
just because they look white to you doesn't mean they are.
quite often, if a character is "white" they are automatically assumed japanese UNLESS nationality is specifically mentioned.
the sexualization issue is off topic though but ill just say we have to agree to disagree.
RemissionAuthor
Neo Member
While the "numbers game" perspective is an accurate one, I have to ask: When is the last time gamers have witnessed a game that has portrayed a different gender or ethnicity in a complex and worthwhile manner? I'm not saying the effort shouldn't be made. But when a writer doesn't possess a background in those areas the narrative will suffer. Not only that they will be under relentless scrutiny for sexism and racism. ie (The erroneous Far Cry 4 business recently)
Fahrenheit
Banned
How is telling them to go make one not a good argument. Are you implying women are unable to make video games? And anyone is free to criticize a game for any reason. As the end user who pays money we can say anything we want. Just as I have the freedom to not agree with criticism being said. Anymore with just about every game we have this underlining hum of how games are misogynistic/racist for having a white man as the main character.
i surely hope you aren't stupid enough to totally disregard the well-established and extensively researched feedback loop that media has with culture at large
people are affected by this shit whether they want to admit it or not
Boxcar Overkill
Banned
Is a game that features graphic violence and females depicted in sexually suggestive ways interesting or is it offensive?
I think the answer to that question often depends on whether you are a male or a female.
Some games won't have graphic violence and sex and will sell just fine. Sims, Candy Crush, Guitar Hero's etc.
But some premium games will lots of blatant sex and violence, and the same things that will attract lots of teenage boys will repel a lot of grown women.
A game based on sex and graphic violence can sell well to men, but I don't know if there is a way to make it accessible to women without losing its character.
I think the answer to that question often depends on whether you are a male or a female.
Some games won't have graphic violence and sex and will sell just fine. Sims, Candy Crush, Guitar Hero's etc.
But some premium games will lots of blatant sex and violence, and the same things that will attract lots of teenage boys will repel a lot of grown women.
A game based on sex and graphic violence can sell well to men, but I don't know if there is a way to make it accessible to women without losing its character.
SMT guy is Japanese
Mysterious Stranger
Member
Where's all of the Indian lead characters in games?
Oh wait 4 cry 4 is coming out with Ajay!
:0
Oh wait 4 cry 4 is coming out with Ajay!
:0
I really enjoy the battle system, and the mini games (I <3 Gunners Gauntlet and Sphere Break), but I don't like the overall structure of the game. I always felt like I needed a guide open, because of how easy it was to miss something. Advance the dialogue too fast? Fuck you 99.9% completion. I'll be giving it another shot once I finish FFX HD (I just reached Home).
Boxcar Overkill
Banned
To be fair, it is a pretty first-world problem.
Mysterious Stranger
Member
America will be like that south park episode eventually where everyone is blended into one race. Who cares what race is on the cover as long the game is fun!
It's not a good argument because it solves nothing. It's not easy to enter the industry no matter how much you think it is and to make matters worse that same industry has a history of treating women poorly. It's a huge reason why there isn't as many female developers as there could be. I'm curious, if you dislike a movie and say what you dislike does that give me the right to dismiss your opinion by saying "go make one yourself then"? I mean can you at least see how dumb that sounds?
And you can disagree with the criticisms all you want but if you want to properly argue against them it's best if you come up with something other than "make your own game" because at that point we might as well just say that to anyone critiquing a game.
There's a problem in this industry but it's not exclusive to it. Media and comics also suffer similar problems in regards to lack of female writers, directors and producers. These issues are going to continue to exist if they're not called out. It seems however that videogames is the one medium where fans get most defensive about being critiqued in regards to diversity.
I understand.
I suppose my level of frustration is because I see people complaining at businesses to offer a product that will either increase the cost of making that product, or to take on a risk that could end up poorly. Not that I want to defend the company by any means, but it's like telling a dog to stop licking their crotch. It just doesn't seem very helpful.
I also understand the importance of getting the word out. The movement doesn't gain momentum when it isn't in the mind of the community.
Is the point then to ask for it enough that the community itself shows interest in such things to create that possible market where the risk is rewarded?
Maybe I'm getting old, but a lot of this comes across overtly condescending and obviously skewed. Seems like focusing on AAA games as the state of the entire industry is fishing via confirmation bias, then showing it to me and saying, "look, your community isn't inclusive, you should help me make you and your community better by asking companies to have more women in a bunch of games you think subjectively suck anyway."
I'm sure that's not the intent, but that is how it sounds to me in her pieces.
Mysterious Stranger
Member
There are a lot of powerful women in Hollywood coming up with shows or who are network executives or writers.
Circle Jerk
Member
The only reason it looks more diverse is because they're using actual game models, showcasing the various art styles, while the Western side uses the same image changed over and over. You can argue that Western design can be homogeneous but that image is a terrible example of it.
I don't think that image is a great example but I don't disagree that overall Japan has more diverse designs.
Oh that's completely fair. I was speaking more in regards to the writing. The battle system is ace but I can totally see how other aspects might not be appealing.
And?
The industry still struggles with women in positions of power and that's a known fact. We're progressing and that's fantastic but we've still got a ways to go. I'm not going to put down any progress, I just don't think improvement suddenly means there's still no longer a problem.
Circle Jerk
Member
Also I totally just realized that image is using The Evil Within as an example of Western game companies inability to create different looking characters, which is just precious.
Mysterious Stranger
Member
Plenty of powerful women making games at UBISOFT! Remember Jade Raymond!
othersteve
Member
Let's clarify. There's nothing wrong with wanting this. Congrats, that's awesome, you're a great guy and people of all races stand with you.
The point is it is not at all surprising and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Diversity is all well and good, but it should not shock anyone that the majority of games--designed to make money--are catering to the largest demographic.
Also: the article you just linked me to (horribly written by the way, and completely ambiguous in its statistical interpretations) seems to want to suggest that blacks are the biggest gaming demographic. However the way it is worded and likely the way it is interpreted do not make this very clear:
So in other words, when taken one for one, a black person is playing 30 minutes more games daily on average than a given white person. But how many more white people are there than black people?
This sounds like a typical example of a writer not bothering to actually pay attention to the statistics he's harvesting.
I get it, black people play lots of games. So do women these days; certain types of games anyway. That isn't the point. The point is that, on the whole (unless someone here can prove otherwise), there is a greater aggregate market of gamers who are white males than any other demographic. Given that, why should it surprise anyone at all that games choose to cater primarily (first and foremost anyway) to that largest demographic?
It's the same reason Windows machines and Android smartphones are subject to more malware, cash advance stores tend to show up in poorer neighborhoods, farm stores are located near where more people own farms, etc., etc. It is not surprising; it's economics.
Fahrenheit
Banned
I'd really like to see the hard evidence about how hard it is for women in the industry. Till I see more evidence and not just "unnamed sources" I don't buy it. If you feel strongly enough about a video games you want you make then go make it. Between kick starter and 3rd party engines it's never been so easy to make a game.
ZackieChan
Member
Is James Vega Hispanic? If so, Freddie Prinze Jr. is half Puerto Rican. Not hispanic enough?
There are quite a bit more than she is giving credit for, but I am not shocked really considering.
The reality is that the market is a largest percentage made up of white males.
Like it, hate it, it is what it is.
Many of these vocal protesters are there for the press, but do not put their money where their focus is when it matters and somehow can find enough fault not to support many games that do try to have female protagonists
So as usual, instead of focusing on positive steps taken, focus is again instead locked on to negatives because it is much better for hits and to rile up the click bait masses.
Is it perfect, nope.
But things are not being ignored.
The reality is that the market is a largest percentage made up of white males.
Like it, hate it, it is what it is.
Many of these vocal protesters are there for the press, but do not put their money where their focus is when it matters and somehow can find enough fault not to support many games that do try to have female protagonists
So as usual, instead of focusing on positive steps taken, focus is again instead locked on to negatives because it is much better for hits and to rile up the click bait masses.
Is it perfect, nope.
But things are not being ignored.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Probably because game developers and possibly even the marketing people and focus testing groups are predominantly white males and the characters slowly morph into a reflection of what these groups want to see in a videogame character.
It is no grand conspiracy.
And it is no coincidence that the typical videogame white male seems to be getting older as well, I find it quite interesting that developers seem to age their characters with them. Kojima ageing all versions of Snake, Drake being aged up, Joel. Even new characters like Booker from Bioshock, and the GTAV protagonists seem to be from an older demographic than was popular ten years ago
It is no grand conspiracy.
And it is no coincidence that the typical videogame white male seems to be getting older as well, I find it quite interesting that developers seem to age their characters with them. Kojima ageing all versions of Snake, Drake being aged up, Joel. Even new characters like Booker from Bioshock, and the GTAV protagonists seem to be from an older demographic than was popular ten years ago
http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-d...-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012
Here's some examples.
I'll also post this huge controversy that happened not too long ago:
http://kotaku.com/reporter-apologizes-for-crude-sexual-comments-to-female-1505393796
I mean those are only a few examples.
It's also not a matter of just feeling strongly about wanting a specific kind of game. What about a franchise I love that is fully capable of including a female playable character? Am I not allowed to ask for one or complain about the lack of? I mean so many developers say they'll listen to fans so do I not have the right to ask this?
rselig1974
Neo Member
Political correctness is just getting ridiculous. Really, this is something to be concerned about? Games are about creating an experience. And that experience is thought up and created by artists and the technical teams that work on it. Sure, a lot of what they create is determined by how large an audience they can reach (get money from), but that is part of reality.
Stop looking for discrimination where it doesn't exist.
Stop looking for discrimination where it doesn't exist.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Lots of action games that inherit it from action movies.
Fahrenheit
Banned
I don't buy any of that hash tag nonsense for hard evidence. Though that facebook conversation is not appropriate at all. Still see that as the exception not the rule. As far as extending females to more games I do agree. I'd love a female assassin in Unity but only if it's gonna be written in such a way to highlight the difference between in treatment a man vs a women would have in the settings not just do a model swap for the sake of doing a model swap.
Honestly, there's a lot of waifuism on the Japanese side that makes it a poor example too.
I think where Japan succeeds, it succeeds in good part because:
a) Characters tend to be characters rather than avatars, in terms of everything from amount of fourth wall breaking to stylized designs to game design choices like lack of dialog trees and area-centric rather than character-centric or first-person character. "It felt really visceral, like I was really there" is a term of (usually) praise that gets applied a lot more to Western AAA console titles, and there's a lot of academic criticism and focus-grouping both focused on claiming that crown for artistic or marketing purposes, but it has its weaknesses. Mario is a 30something white guy with facial hair and at the least perma-hat head, but when I play SMB I'm not being asked to subsume my existence into his and connect with him on a deep level, he's just a playing piece that I guide across the field.
b) Plotlines, like I mentioned in an earlier post, are more "juvenile". Not necessarily in terms of complexity or writing quality, but in terms of themes - and both teen girls and teen boys (or anyone who's ever been one) is expected to understand and emphasize with the idea of surpassing the older generation and making something of yourself.
On the other hand, the quest for filmism and the feel of maturity has brought the west to a point where big games are often about honor or revenge, sometimes on a national level - things that only adult men are socially expected to focus on. If you're a man who's the average console gamer age of mid-30s, for a few years in your youth it was a cultural expectation that you either go play Call of Duty: Real Life Edition or at least fervently cheer on those who did; a woman of the same age is significantly less likely to have ever supported the same, and wouldn't have been accepted to fully participate even if she volunteered.
Boxcar Overkill
Banned
You definitely have the right to ask for whatever you want.
What I think is happening here is that people have found the narrative of "poor-little-woman-as-victim" is growing tedious. Also, the kind of game you like may not be the kind of game they like, and so they would just as soon see more rather than less games featuring graphic violence and depicting women in a sexually suggestive manner.
Andronicus
Banned
Metroid?
MrCunningham
Member
Metroid is a girl?
But seriously. what about Ms. Pac-Man? And her game was superior to Pac-Man's.
I would say COD and Titanfall are now making it standard to have a female option for muliplayer. So really this PC BS needs to die in freaking hole there is MUCH bigger things to worry about than the color or gender of MC in game. Like if its a good GAME and if its this cinematic BS that is being pushed! That is what should be our worries.
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