He ended up cutting relatively little in regards to transformations but if I had to guess, I'd say it's mainly that he couldn't address Brawl's issue of annoying and inconsistent loading times in transformations, so he ended up removing them which had a positive side effect for the competitive community (being able to round out some characters previously shackled to another and allow players to focus on a single moveset).
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
He ended up cutting relatively little in regards to transformations but if I had to guess, I'd say it's mainly that he couldn't address Brawl's issue of annoying and inconsistent loading times in transformations, so he ended up removing them which had a positive side effect for the competitive community (being able to round out some characters previously shackled to another and allow players to focus on a single moveset).
I think the separate Pokemon Trainer might be due to a few things, having multiple characters in one might have been seen as a bit overpowered. The language they've been using is 'focus on one character' which makes sense.
It does help competitive players and there is a reason Project M splits them up (but allows Zelda Sheik transform still). I'm hoping Bowser Jr replaces Squirtle and for Ivy I have no idea but I'd love to see something with a similar four legged fighter in smash.
It does help competitive players and there is a reason Project M splits them up (but allows Zelda Sheik transform still). I'm hoping Bowser Jr replaces Squirtle and for Ivy I have no idea but I'd love to see something with a similar four legged fighter in smash.
JB-the-Hunter
Member
He didn't say it, I'm using logic. No casual players were asking for transformations to be removed. In fact, casuals would probably be opposed to the idea.
The quote "You'll be able to concentrate on a single moveset for the entire match" implies that Sakurai wanted all the characters to be competitively viable.
It's almost embarrassing how much items transform some competitive smash players, that was pretty bad when he picked up the super scope.
Beelzebufo
Banned
All we know is that Chorus Men are very likely to be playable. Their moves/stage are anyone's guess.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
- Sakurai balances Melee on his lonesome and it is the best thing ever.
- Sakurai has 12 people for Smash 4 and it is the most stupid decision possible because he should have more.
Like this guy criticises Sakurai for apparently not listening to himself and yet he's doing the same thing. Then again it sounds like Sakurai's response to the 'If I beat you will you let me balance the game' guy upset him as well (calls Sakurai stubborn for that). Could this be that guy? But overall I stopped taking this guy seriously when he started whining about Smash being described as a party game. Does he forget that Melee was one too? I mean it has an item called the party ball! It's all about the parties with your favourite Nintendo characters!
shaowebb
Member
Honestly the guy in that video is constantly talking junk and trying to rant and thinks of himself as entertaining gold. As you can see it gets worse when he starts trying to act serious and sound methodical because its pretty plain when he does this just how large the gaps in his knowledge and skill levels are. Max is always looking like he is barely keeping him in check in play vids from saying something that will cause a shitstorm. In general, just avoid anything on Max's channel with him in them. Max is golden, but that dude is pretty much one of those loud desktop developer types who thinks he's funny and is just sort of a self important ill informed douche.
This. NO ONE who mained Samus in Melee was happy with Brawl Samus. A zoner who was slow? Hell even casuals who used to like here were pissed because doing her Final Smash meant she turned into a completely different moveset. I hung out with Samus players from both circles locally and both were pretty vocally pissed on it.
Playing Project M Samus was pretty exciting for my Smash loving wife. Icebeam is glorious. Me? I'm a Ganondorf main...loved the armor and he felt pretty tight in Project M.
I already know I'm gonna main Lil Mac though. I'm a big punchout fan and wanted him back in Brawl days. Now he shows up and he's like the mobile heavy weight armor throwing beast I always wished my Ganondorf would become. Still hope Dorf comes back though. I mained him since Melee and he is sorely missed. He definitely needed work though. Greninja stomp turns me on as a Dorf main...not gonna lie.
In his roundtable discussion from a few days ago, Sakurai said transformations were removed mainly because he wanted to focus on individual characters. I don't think this necessarily has to do with competitive play -- rather, features like Smash Run, Amiibo and character customization wouldn't really work if Pokémon Trainer was split up into three different characters. "Individuality" seems to be a key concept for the new games.
... or that he didn't want to overwhelm casual players.
That seems like an easier inference to make.
The thing with me is that I don't have an issue with people playing brawl both competitive or casual. It's just the path it's going down seems to be going towards brawl and I don't enjoy that.
The issue comes when you have people who build straw mans about why someone dislikes the game and who pretend the competive players don't have fun. And when competitive players look down on casuals for not wanting to get better(which doesn't even happen that often...)
NEWCOMER THEORY TIME
Assuming that Chrom, Shulk and Chorus Men are the remaining newcomers (and the leaker never said they're all that's left, but let's assume for the moment), how do you guys think they'll pace their reveals?
Honestly, part of me thinks Sakurai will buck tradition and NOT save any newcomers for secret characters. My reason for thinking this is each newcomer has received a dedicated announcement trailer. I mean, I suppose he could keep them hidden and then reveal their trailers post-launch, but for marketing purposes it seems like it'd make more sense to show them all beforehand. And he has confirmed before that every newcomer will get a trailer.
So here we are in June, the month of E3. We got three newcomers: Mii Fighters, Palutena and Pac-man. Next month is July. Then August. Then September. And then the 3DS version launches Oct. 3. Since the 3DS version launches so early in October, I anticipate they'll reveal one newcomer each month leading up to launch:
- Newcomer in July
- Newcomer in August
- Newcomer in September
In which case, the question is who will be revealed when. We have two "cool" characters (Chrom and Shulk) and a clever "quirky" character (Chorus Men). I think Chorus Men will be revealed last, in September, in the same spirit as past "last" characters like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.
Assuming that Chrom, Shulk and Chorus Men are the remaining newcomers (and the leaker never said they're all that's left, but let's assume for the moment), how do you guys think they'll pace their reveals?
Honestly, part of me thinks Sakurai will buck tradition and NOT save any newcomers for secret characters. My reason for thinking this is each newcomer has received a dedicated announcement trailer. I mean, I suppose he could keep them hidden and then reveal their trailers post-launch, but for marketing purposes it seems like it'd make more sense to show them all beforehand. And he has confirmed before that every newcomer will get a trailer.
So here we are in June, the month of E3. We got three newcomers: Mii Fighters, Palutena and Pac-man. Next month is July. Then August. Then September. And then the 3DS version launches Oct. 3. Since the 3DS version launches so early in October, I anticipate they'll reveal one newcomer each month leading up to launch:
- Newcomer in July
- Newcomer in August
- Newcomer in September
In which case, the question is who will be revealed when. We have two "cool" characters (Chrom and Shulk) and a clever "quirky" character (Chorus Men). I think Chorus Men will be revealed last, in September, in the same spirit as past "last" characters like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.
Different people. Also, the person who asked Sakurai that question at the roundtable clarified a day later that he was asking that question in jest (as a joke) and Sakurai gave him that response in a jokey manner as well. He said it was all good because later he actually spoke to Sakurai again after the roundtable seriously asking to have a match with him and Sakurai said, "I'll think about it."
The journalists at the roundtable who covered that question did not give *any* context at all.
LeMaximilian
Alligator F*ck House
Here's my bulletpoint impressions. I made quite a few last night when I had to get some of this stuff off my chest, but understand this before I say anything. Smash 4 was my #1 most anticipated game of the show going in with very high hopes. Probably not the best thing, as I want to love the game, and left with some iffy impressions.
Smash Wii U
+ F'ing Gorgeous. Seriously, one of the most beautiful games of the show (Color design, etc)
- Game Feel. You know when something just feels off in a game? Smash Wii U has this. It's really hard to point, and probably comes down to several different things, but the game just feels off. One theory I have is a 5-10 frame buffer window built into the game naturally for a better online experience with the netcode (Soul Calibur V, and Tekken Tag 2 have this, which are both Namco made too)
- Barebones. Compared to previous games, it mostly feels like they just removed things from the Smash mechanics/formula in terms of gameplay. Granted, I can't L-Cancel, wavedash, or do any of the crazy competitive stuff you could do in Melee, but I can tell you that Melee feels like you have way more mobility options. Upon the end of E3, we played several Matches in Brawl and I found that the overall game speed (running, jumping, dashing, hitstun recovery) felt like it was around 15-25% faster than Brawl, which was good. But the problem was the recovery after attacks (returning to neutral) felt enormous, and for many characters was similar to Brawl. In Smash 4 you were afraid to press buttons as it was hard to find decent attacks. After adapting to the new gameplay of Smash 4, I was finding myself consistently winning by letting my opposition literally kill themselves with unsafe attacks and extended aerial recovery. It's VERY noticeable, and reminds me a lot of high level Street Fighter 4 where most of the time, the person with the most patience wins. I really like the crazy offensive style of Melee, where whoever has the most ballistic offense wins a lot of the time. And even tho I don't have all those crazy competitive strategies, the game -feels- that way.
Don't get me wrong, Smash 4 is NOT a bad game. But going in with the hopes I had, I did leave disappointed, and hopeful things could change. But there's been a lingering issue in my mind.
If Smash 4 doesn't run AMAZING online, all these extended animations/recovery of moves (making the game feel slower in combat) are going to be 10 times more noticeable if there's a bunch of input delay issues while playing online.
I still hope for the best, and feel that I'll just have to get used to all the changes, and 'git gud' at a completely different feeling game than what I'm familiar with(and I'm not a Smash vet by any means, just a fighting game lover). It very much reminds me of a previous transition between SF2: Super Turbo and Alpha 3, then going to SF4. It's not a bad thing, it's just gonna take my classically trained brain a while to break out of the mold.
Smash 3DS
- It feels too early. Camera zoom out at maximum makes the characters barely visible. Hard to identify who you are.
- Framerate issues. Most the time it was running at 45 FPS, dropping a little below and maybe hitting 60 here and there. I watched some 60 fps DSLR footage I took of the screen and saw there was some hanging frames, so it wasn't just me.
+ Looks good when camera is up close. Lots of detail, new stages are really fun.
- Single player mode has the biggest issues with framerate. Tons of enemies, huge level, 3DS seemed to chug at times with too much action.
- Desperatly want alternate control options. The 3DS analog -sucks- for this game. I often times wished the D-pad could be made functional in a way.
Totally makes sense why the 3DS version is no longer Summer. It needs work.
JB-the-Hunter
Member
What casual is overwhelmed by Pokemon Trainer? They're the only ones who even used that character. The use of the word "focus" points more toward competitive players IMO.
NickWright
Member
Well, Smash only left like 4 newcomers up to users' discovery, right?
So, if the Gematsu newcomers ARE the only newcomers, maybe we won't get any other reveal up until the release.
... Or maybe we're getting one, but Nintendo should announce a Direct, and I don't see them doing one in summer. Maybe.
We'll get Shulk in august because Ridley is also a hidden newcomer
I really think some of the newcomers left will be left as hidden characters. Especially Chorus Men.
Just so you know, there was 10 frames of buffer in Brawl by default. So it would not surprise me if they did carry this over to some extent since... they had started off of Brawl. They could've toned it down though because I heard from some of the players at E3 that the buffer felt different somehow compared to Brawl (I forget what the exact comment was). Maybe the window is smaller for when you can put an input in and the game will do it compared to Brawl, I dunno. But yeah, buffer was there in Brawl as well most likely to cushion its terrible online netcode.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
In what context other than the bimonthly direct would they debut another newcomer trailer?
Beelzebufo
Banned
I just can't imagine when Nintendo would reveal any of those characters. There aren't that many games coming out the rest of the year, I'm not expecting many general Nintendo directs like we had before.
We could get another Smash Bros. Direct a few weeks before the 3DS version launches with a few more details and a final newcomer reveal.
Keeping track of three characters' worth of movesets? I could easily see Sakurai thinking that would be overwhelming for casual players.
I should clarify: I think you could make just as much of an inference that he did it for casuals as you think it was for competitive players. That line is pretty open to interpretation in the opposite direction.
In reality, I bet it was more a dev time issue than anything.
I don't know, but it's not impossible that they would have extra Directs aside from the usual. They could be smaller Directs on something else altogether. Or it could be straight-up Smash and purely about the newcomers. Slap a countdown timer on it until the reveal of a new character.
I'm not saying it would play out in any of those ways. Just pointing out that there's nothing preventing them from finding ways to showcase these trailers.
Whoa whoa whoa, what's this?
https://twitter.com/VGBC_GimR/status/477935199565533185
Pls don't get rid of it! Make it universal for all characters! PLS ;~; (And add it to the Wii U version!)
https://twitter.com/VGBC_GimR/status/477935199565533185
Pls don't get rid of it! Make it universal for all characters! PLS ;~; (And add it to the Wii U version!)
That's precisely why it seems important to trickle out more reveals between now and launch: To maintain the momentum from E3, and to distract from the dearth of first-party content coming out over the summer.
Beelzebufo
Banned
It's probably me being overly optimistic, but stuff like this makes me think most of our major complaints just arose out of the game not being finished. Like aren't there also major inconsistencies with landing lag, with some moves having none at all?
That makes sense too, but I think Mario Kart DLC and veteran reveals would get the job done, along with games like Hyrule Warriors. They could also put up the character pages for hidden characters up on the site (but hidden) when the game comes up in Japan, and just link to the videos there.
SenorArdilla
Member
Adding the eye sparkle to the character select screen definitely livens things up.
shaowebb
Member
LOL! Bowser can crouch cancel Dash? Hellooooooooo MVC3 wavedashing.
LeMaximilian
Alligator F*ck House
Thanks for the clarification, and would make a lot of sense. Funny how they tried to do something about the netcode with Brawl with it being beyond awful.
BassForever
Member
Yeah if that happened it'd be a good place to show off another character trailer (evo is july correct?)
Have one for the august direct and reveal a character
Have a smash direct in september to show off the final newcomer and reveal the entire roster
3DS and WiiU versions launch
Spring 2015 direct announce Smash Bros DLC
CesspoolofHatred
Member
Probably Rush Jet for a more horizontal recovery option, and if they feel like it, maybe the third option would be a split-second merge with the Rush Jet/Super Adaptor from Megaman 6/7 respectively, where he'd go up or down a bit for a short boost depending on what direction you push, much like ROB's Cave Story inspired Up-B from Project M. It'd give Megaman some sort of super armor during his recovery, but at the cost of less overall movement both horizontally and vertically.
Hyperactivity
Banned
So I got to play today at Best Buy. Even typing this at Best Buy too, lol
Tried both wiiu.3ds versions out.
Have nothing to say about /wiiU version. Couldnot get used to Pro controller and I was with a dad and his two small kids, one of which wanted to go to wily castle. Didn't argue since I didn't want to be an ass to a kid
3DS version, I played Pit. Smash Run is a ton of fun. Like holy shit, there will be a ton of hours spent in that. Pit feels really good, and I love his recovery.
You know how they said there would be different rules and mechanics for the end of smash run, like everyone with Franklin badges? Well I got one of those, I think it was called High Smash Fly or something to that effect. Was really cool, think it was that smash attacks send you ultra far, which led to a crap ton of KOs for me.
Nintendogs stage isn't that bad. Not competitive, but you can see blocks falling and have quite a bit of time to get out of the way
Tried both wiiu.3ds versions out.
Have nothing to say about /wiiU version. Couldnot get used to Pro controller and I was with a dad and his two small kids, one of which wanted to go to wily castle. Didn't argue since I didn't want to be an ass to a kid
3DS version, I played Pit. Smash Run is a ton of fun. Like holy shit, there will be a ton of hours spent in that. Pit feels really good, and I love his recovery.
You know how they said there would be different rules and mechanics for the end of smash run, like everyone with Franklin badges? Well I got one of those, I think it was called High Smash Fly or something to that effect. Was really cool, think it was that smash attacks send you ultra far, which led to a crap ton of KOs for me.
Nintendogs stage isn't that bad. Not competitive, but you can see blocks falling and have quite a bit of time to get out of the way
Casual players are not dumb. Hell I'm casual and one of my favourite character choices in Random. It's not exactly hard to remember a bunch of directional moves. The problem with transformation was they were not always desirable. Samus to ZSS meant I could never use her final smash if I wanted to stay in one form (final smashes being something you won't get in a tournament). Pokémon Trainer's main mechanic forced you to keep switching even if you only like playing as one of the Pokémon (I was never that keen on Charizard for example).
Bowser is the chosen one
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Thanks for the summary, it was good read overall.
I really hope that Smash 4 wouldn't overdo it with defensive since I preferred balance between offensive and defensive since it's better that way.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Probably is universal and just wasn't ready for WiiU/not ready for other characters
Very interesting
ArchedThunder
Banned
Wait, do alternate costumes take up a color slot? If so that's a little disappointing.
sorakirosaki
Member
I don't think late do :t
One can only hope...
LeMaximilian said:
Yeah, I think they even went so far as to institute a minimum 6 frames of input delay or something like that in the netcode. And then on top of that you have the random 0-2 frames of input delay from controller inputs (this differs depending on the controller you use when you play Brawl and it's hard to notice because of the buffering in the game). That last one isn't intentional, though.
Well Wario had an alt and that didn't stop him having a good selection of colour options for each outfit.
JB-the-Hunter
Member
It definitely is. Nintendo is gonna make sure of that.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I understand why they did that but I wish that they didn't over-relying on their server testing and online testing between two buildings in Japan because Japan's network system are completely better and different than other countries.