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Tropes vs Women in Video Games: Background Decoration Pt. 1
- Thread starter Htown
- Start date
Solid Samus
Banned
I typed out a couple different responses to this but it's not worth it, I'll just sigh and move on
and maybe point out that that's a shitpost if I've ever seen one
someone else will respond to you in kind I'm sure
The Reptilian Frag
Give me virtual prostitute corridors or give me death
(Today, 01:35 PM)
I don't think she, or anyone, has said these attitudes are unique to games. But these attitudes DO exist in games, and that's what she's chosen to focus on. There are plenty of other people who focus on other mediums. There's nothing wrong, though, about choosing to focus on a single particular medium.
PseudoKirby
Banned
So no opposition to Anita in this discussion?
fine. I shall just say that I dislike this person and feel her views are moderately distorted and wrong.
fine. I shall just say that I dislike this person and feel her views are moderately distorted and wrong.
People ask for better female representation in those mediums as well. Having women as characters with depth and a bigger role than tits on a stick is fine, many of the best films, shows and anime are focused around women who aren't in a handful of roles. In gaming, it's much less common. The role of women in books, movies, cartoons, etc. have been looked at for quite some time. Looking at minority representation at games is good for the medium.
Arsenic Yellow
Member
I did the same.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Feel free to elaborate on why her videos are wrong. Just don't personally attack her, as sadly has historically been very difficult for a lot of people.
QueenOfThorns
Member
So..? She points out that this happens in those mediums too, it doesn't make it ok. Everything you can think of often uses sexist and misogynist tropes, but since this is a series of videos on video games, those are what she's gonna focus on.
Captain Europe
Member
I liked her previous videos, looking forward to watching this one.
If you put them next to toys and leer at them there's a pretty clear association there.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Anything about the video, or is it just about her?
I love how people make arguments like this one like if the game was a movie shoot on location.
Binary Domain is a Sci Fi ... they showed prostitutes because they WANTED.
They could have EASILY shown a part of the slums without any prostitutes (slums =/= red light district) or even choose to show fully clothed prostitutes because whatever future sci fy =P
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
Nice, will watch later and stay out of here now. These threads always destroy the illusion that GAF is full of intelligent and reflective human beings.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
As Anita mentions in the video, games are a special case when it becomes to background decoration due to their interactive nature. It's not the same thing as movies, TV shows, anime, etc.
I literally did the same thing, haha. But it's just not worth it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yes. Video games, like all art and creative media, are constructed. Especially in video games where everything is virtual everything is purposeful.
Most are used to her cherrypicking and lack of context in her examples by now.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines sold pretty well for doing that. The thing is, money speaks over content. I find the acts of sex far more insulting. Sex was not needed in
Wolfenstein, but it was there anyway.
But she isn't dressed like a sex object. At all. Just compare the first prostitute with Fey - a major character of the game. Fey is dressed sexy. The prostitute is the exact opposite of that.
She is just literally offering sex for money (without any way of actually accepting that offer anyway) because well she is supposed to be a prostitute. Like I said - without the dialog the player just wouldn't be able to know that she is supposed to be a prostitute. So the problem is that the game has prostitutes in the slums?
I definitely prefer this approach to any other approach in case the developer wants to show such a situation. Unless you want to prohibit game developers or maybe also movie directors to put prostitutes in their games/movies.
Yes, this is shit. This screams Sex Object. Those Binary Domain NPCs do not.
I think the topics of criticism are slowly getting closer to what I was hoping to see brought in. This is a much better commentary than the earlier videos. I have a trickle of complaints about her use of out-of-context imagery to support a point, but I'm not disagreeing with the underlying point.
I will say, I wish she had made earlier recognition of situations where a game is necessarily trying to simulate a real-world or existing media image of a particular space, like a brothel. In the same way I wouldn't quite agree with categorical criticism of violence in a game if the game is using organized crime as the "workspace" for its narrative.
I will say, I wish she had made earlier recognition of situations where a game is necessarily trying to simulate a real-world or existing media image of a particular space, like a brothel. In the same way I wouldn't quite agree with categorical criticism of violence in a game if the game is using organized crime as the "workspace" for its narrative.
Basketball
Member
I'm sure they're aware of the issues
Rockstar pokes fun at the issue constantly I doubt they ever want to change core elements of one of the biggest if not the largest household name in the industry
Looking forward to watching this when I finish work. Thanks for posting! I enjoyed her last videos. I will def. be posting my thoughts when I see it.
(I really hope this doesn't go smelly. We had a good thread on playing as a female protagonist which went smelly really quickly.)
(I really hope this doesn't go smelly. We had a good thread on playing as a female protagonist which went smelly really quickly.)
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, this one seems more thoughtful and well developed then some of her previous videos.
I think some of the arguments she's using for violence against women in games is very, very petty. She's citing examples - specifically of women - that can be beaten...but so can men. Women can drop money if you kill them, so it's an incentive and they're disposable? Men typically offer the same drops. Not a fan of that spinning, because it seems her only bonus argument for women over men in this case is a possible sexual encounter and attempt to link the two. I think she fails on doing so, and I don't think that the fact you can kill women makes them any more expendable than men, for the option of killing either sex is always a choice the player can typically make, the incentive in doing so is typically the same. You can kill whoever in those games, for whatever the reason. Took a taxi? Take out the taxi driver after you're driven to your destination.
What she attempted to do fits with the narrative of the video, but that doesn't exactly make it sound on its own. The points she made about women being a "prop" for marketing is pretty valid, so I'm not trying to be a dissenter.
What she attempted to do fits with the narrative of the video, but that doesn't exactly make it sound on its own. The points she made about women being a "prop" for marketing is pretty valid, so I'm not trying to be a dissenter.
Nymphae
Banned
It's a bit of a jump to say that the imagery implies women are only toys to be played with though, no? Sex sells, that doesn't mean a woman's only inherent worth is sexual. Just that it can be used to catch the attention of men.
BananaSprinkles
Banned
That didn't answer my question.
I'm going to have to disagree. Placing a person next to an item doesn't imply the person is the same as the item. In the case of video game ads featuring women, it's a hobby that is clearly dominated by male consumers (unless you want to start counting mobile games and such) and the whole point is to get their attention.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Trying to make a dubious claim based on extremely rare examples is "cherrypicking." Deciding to investigate a particular thing and finding example of it is just "picking."
As others have pointed out, the topics of most of the Tropes vs. Women series are quite common in other media.
Watching the whole thing, a lot of the discussion is focused specifically around background characters who are sex workers. Strippers, prostitutes, and the like sell their bodies as commodities, and are among the purest examples of objectification that exist. So most of the video feels like a discussion of the intersection of games which feature those kinds of characters or settings and games that allow for violence against all non-playable characters. All open world games give the player incredibly limited means of interacting with the nameless masses that surround them, which makes interacting with these sex workers as sociopathic as a player's interactions with everyone else. I found her part where she discusses violence against sexualized women as some uniquely erotic and pleasurable act encouraged and promoted by game designers unconvincing in light of this. They react like everyone else, they die like everyone else, they ragdoll like everyone else, and they drop money like everyone else.
I would have been more interested in seeing her explore the commodification within games of relationships that aren't traditionally commodified in such a direct way, such as romantic relationships.
I would have been more interested in seeing her explore the commodification within games of relationships that aren't traditionally commodified in such a direct way, such as romantic relationships.
TheSpoiler
Member
Rockstar, at least with V, is doing great commentary without being overt - the main characters are basically shit, and act as people falling into a life of stereotypes and false glory - and I believe that point was missed on many, many people.
Really, GTAV was a big commentary on misogyny, society's herding of men and what they should be, and more importantly, how that plays on the other sex. I think more of the latter could have been done, but it did a pretty damn good job.
"'This isn't unique to video games/not important compared to Real World Problem/it's just video games" should be listed in the OP as another thing people should refrain from doing.
I will be watching this during lunch. Looks to be good.
I feel Binary Domain is a bizarre choice because showing an interest in the prostitutes LOWERS your team-mates trust in you except for Big Bo.
They dont look appealing and the whole point of it seemed to be "this is a thing that exists and its not cool and dont do it just because your buddy pressures you"
and Big Bo peer pressuring you ending up being a potentially major plot point near the end as he potentially betrays you depending on those trust levels
They dont look appealing and the whole point of it seemed to be "this is a thing that exists and its not cool and dont do it just because your buddy pressures you"
xKilltheMx
Member
Yeah this is exactly how I felt and what I meant by cherrypicking. Agreed on all points.
You could as easily put a car next to each of these women, Sex sells and did so strongly in the 80's...
As far as decoration goes, there are prostitutes in slums, there are loose women in bars so on and so forth, there are also thugs/gangs in slums which games represent.
In a movie, let's use Rumble in the Bronx for example, the main female was a cage dancer in a seedy club, it's was representative of the area and there was no reason to get upset over it.
Flag girls in races always tend to be sexy as well as card holders for boxing matches, it's an issue with society if anything and not strictly a gaming problem.
That's about as much as I can say to follow the rules of this discussion.
Edit: still watching, will comment further if need be.
That wouldn't be consistent with the agenda that she has laid out for her series of videos.
TitusGroan
Banned
GAAAH ANITA THE EVIL ONE WHO WANTS TO DESTROY OUR GAMES!!! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!!!
Ahem... I'll make sure to set some time aside in a bit, and watch this. Specific nitpicks I have with some of her arguments (ie, using specific examples and specific games I don't necessarily agree with her on), I agree wholeheartedly with the general points she makes, and think she's done probably more to shine a light on the issue of women in gaming than anyone else recently. It's strange that so many people take such a huge issue with her, when her argument (when you boil it down) is that games/gamers would benefit from being less shit to women, and being all round a bit more inclusive.
Ahem... I'll make sure to set some time aside in a bit, and watch this. Specific nitpicks I have with some of her arguments (ie, using specific examples and specific games I don't necessarily agree with her on), I agree wholeheartedly with the general points she makes, and think she's done probably more to shine a light on the issue of women in gaming than anyone else recently. It's strange that so many people take such a huge issue with her, when her argument (when you boil it down) is that games/gamers would benefit from being less shit to women, and being all round a bit more inclusive.
AlexMeloche
Member
Just realised that I'm kinda out of the loop when it comes to a certain genre of videogame. Do we really need topless women in games? >.>
EDIT:
Also, the way some female NPC speak "dirty" with the shitty face animations is simply hilarious.
EDIT:
Also, the way some female NPC speak "dirty" with the shitty face animations is simply hilarious.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What? It would be entirely in line with the "purpose" that she has laid out for her videos, which is just to examine how women are often depicted and treated in video games. I would actually really like to see her take on the more mechanically focused "commodification" of women
Arthr2ShdsJcksn
Banned
Another quality video. Those print ads in the beginning were ridiculous.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Good video. I knew about prostitutes in GTA etc. but I had no idea it was so common in open world games and that it was invariably so goofy and stupid. I second whoever said the devs really are 16-year-olds.
The only part I don't quite agree with is the violence aspect. Those games allow the player to assault or kill just about any NPC, not just the objectified women. She does point that out a bit later but seem to handwave it a bit.
Edit: beaten by those two posts:
The only part I don't quite agree with is the violence aspect. Those games allow the player to assault or kill just about any NPC, not just the objectified women. She does point that out a bit later but seem to handwave it a bit.
Edit: beaten by those two posts:
Agreed with the bolded.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
My problem with her last two videos is that she doesn't try to really address the unique features of games as a medium. Representational issues are important, but I think developers saying that "girls are hard to animate" is much more relevant to games than whether or not developers replicate tropes found on TVTropes.
I think addressing the nature of NPCs is fair, but also a bit selective inasmuch as male NPCs are also replicated and are also equally disposable.
There is a point to be made about the commodification of women, but when you look at games like Assassin's Creed Freedom Cry, you have a game that commodifies slaves and literally turns people - regardless of gender - into collectables. I think there's a larger problem with game design in that case, but I'll admit that very often women are used in that way more often in open world games.
I live in the lower income part of town and I can go weeks, months or even the occasional year without seeing a prostitute. Some of these games make it seem like they should be on every corner.
I'm also not sure how a prostitute is not a sex object, that's pretty much the point, regardless of how skimpy the clothes are. That's not to say a character couldn't be a prostitute.
TheSpoiler
Member
I didn't catch that until you mentioned it - the game's design is basically giving you the option to show interest (not actually have sex) or not. The game rewards you by boosting trust if you don't show interest, right? So the game is leading you to do the "right" thing, whereas the rest of the game is mostly even when it comes to choices and the results.
But then people might argue that giving us the option entails some sort of possible sexist problem. The issue with that reasoning is that it clearly fits the narrative of the game, as you said -
what Bo wants and what the team wants become at odds.
tl;dr - Your reward for being an ass ain't as good as it is for being a rad person instead, and that's telling.
True, but you can't ignore the plot of the games. This isn't modern day real life. This is an era of robotics, laser pew pew guns, and savage city parts. It's plot contextual, and it would be better to argue that the trope itself is overused and tired moreso than it, in this game's realm at least, is sexist.
If every single NPC regardless gender was eroticized you might had a point there. They certainly don't react like everyone else. Does the pimp on the street makes passes on you? lol
This is very well explained in the video.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I feel like to not include sex workers in a game set in a virtual Sin City (such as GTA or whatever) would seem like an extremely odd omission. As a result, you can of course attack these sex workers, because by nature you can attack all NPCs in these sorts of games. While it's easy to single out the sex workers as being objectified, that is often how sex workers present themselves in the real world, because they are selling their sexuality as a commodity. Should games set in the underbelly of society simply ignore that these women exist? Anita doesn't really provide any answer or solution to this problem, but it's good to think about it.
Eh GTA I've always looked at GTA as a Scarface-caliber satire. Which is to say, even though all those things may be true to their intention, the end result is that they've created a thing that goes over people's heads more often than not, and that's their fault. It's like South Park: sure, Cartman is supposed to be detestable, but they've ended up creating a guy that's so funny that tons of people love him and so go around talking about "Jew gold" and laughing.
A proper satire leaves you frowning, these leave you smiling.