Tropes vs Women in Video Games: Background Decoration Pt. 1

Maybe I'm losing it but did she imply that because Open world games, that allow you to kill anyone you please, promote sexism and violence against women because they allow you to kill women? Or that because you can get money from killing that hooker woman, just like you could if you killed a another woman or some random other person male or female, somehow encourages violence against women and their objectification?

Or even her point about how being arrested and shortly released thereafter in GTA says that violence against women is okay? Its almost like she's willfully ignoring game mechanics to make her point. Who would play a GTA game that was Game Over no restart after you died or got arrested?

I'm kinda stunned right now.
 
Maybe I'm losing it but did she imply that because Open world games, that allow you to kill anyone you please, promote sexism and violence against women because they allow you to kill women? Or that because you can get money from killing that hooker woman, just like you could if you killed a another woman or some random other person male or female, somehow encourages violence against women and their objectification?

Or even her point about how being arrested and shortly released thereafter in GTA says that violence against women is okay? Its almost like she's willfully ignoring game mechanics to make her point. Who would play a GTA game that was Game Over no restart after you died or got arrested?

I'm kinda stunned right now.

That is what she said and was implying, yes.
 
Maybe I'm losing it but did she imply that because Open world games, that allow you to kill anyone you please, promote sexism and violence against women because they allow you to kill women? Or that because you can get money from killing that hooker woman, just like you could if you killed a another woman or some random other person male or female, somehow encourages violence against women and their objectification?

Or even her point about how being arrested and shortly released thereafter in GTA says that violence against women is okay? Its almost like she's willfully ignoring game mechanics to make her point. Who would play a GTA game that was Game Over no restart after you died or got arrested?

I'm kinda stunned right now.

She already did something similar in an earlier video before.

Besides that, the video just seems far too shallow again. Even if you might approve or disapprove of that, it still feels a bit like a TV-tropes page in videoform and that is what I say in every video she makes and every time it seems true.
Instead of doing interviews with devs, getting to an "in-depth" analysis of why these tropes might re-occur over and over again, it just feels like a list and without any big solution.
And if she offers a solution sometimes, its just the same thing she might criticise. A genderswap for the sake of it (like in her game idea).

I am just wondering about the prostitute debate. What would be preferable. A game, which shows male and female prostitutes or no prostitutes at all?
 
Maybe I'm losing it but did she imply that because Open world games, that allow you to kill anyone you please, promote sexism and violence against women because they allow you to kill women? Or that because you can get money from killing that hooker woman, just like you could if you killed a another woman or some random other person male or female, somehow encourages violence against women and their objectification?

Or even her point about how being arrested and shortly released thereafter in GTA says that violence against women is okay? Its almost like she's willfully ignoring game mechanics to make her point. Who would play a GTA game that was Game Over no restart after you died or got arrested?

I'm kinda stunned right now.

That whole segment highlighted an almost confusingly incompetent set of premises. She was attempting to highlight how women were treated differently, while disregarding (or obscuring) that the same criticism of the systems and mechanics would apply to any other NPC in those games. The efforts to downplay the systems in the games which communicate and enforce rules against anti-social (and by her measure, anti-women) behavior just seemed counter-intuitive. Characterizing police attempting to stop and arrest a player acting out violence on NPCs as "exhilarating" says much, much more about her assumptions than the attitudes behind the games. That exact criticism would apply to police in real life if that were an accurate take on the events. Police attempting to stop criminals is giving them incentive to commit violent acts? I can't agree with that relative to this conversation.

Simply put: What, in terms of in-game logic, is a greater statement on player behavior than a literally endless stream of retribution in response to your act of violence, dressed in the symbols of law-enforcement?
 
I disagree completely

Slagging on the powerful is healthy, slagging on the put-upon is bullying.

Giving millions of people who you already know don't watch your show critically a PSA about how it's chill to say "faggot" is irresponsible.

A bunch of rich white men getting together to make fun of white people to a white audience is so so different than a bunch of rich white men getting together to make fun of the disenfranchised to a white audience.
 
Slagging on the powerful is healthy, slagging on the put-upon is bullying.

Giving millions of people who you already know don't watch your show critically a PSA about how it's chill to say "faggot" is irresponsible.

A bunch of rich white men getting together to make fun of white people to a white audience is so so different than a bunch of rich white men getting together to make fun of the disenfranchised to a white audience.

Just for clarity, which were you saying this characterizes?
 
Sure GTA riffs on american culture, but if you're saying their misogyny is justified because it's satire i don't think that works. It's like saying "hey let's make our game SUPER racist to show everyone how racist society is!" But if there's nothing that indicates that racism is a bad thing then it's just racism. Same idea.

Also I don't think you can deny GTAV is worse than other entries. San Andreas at least had Kendl and IV had Elizabeta and Mallorie for what that's worth. There aren't really any comparable characters in V.
I didn't say it was justified. I'm saying it's a little ridiculous that you don't like playing a game around women when I know women are able to notice just how over the top the game is being as a reflection of the world we live in. And just because something is portraying misogyny does not mean a woman is going to be as uncomfortable as you seem to be in processing its intent and messaging. It seems like a natural progression of GTA style lunacy so I'm just curious as to the route you thought it could go.

I'm sorry but it just seems to me like your original post thought a woman's experience playing or seeing GTA is like being put through the seventh circle of hell when in actuality it is usually seen the same way as an average gamer would see it -- over the top ridiculousness that is not meant to be taken seriously. The game could use some more female characters, that we both seem to agree on.

Brakke said:
...which is part of what makes both of them at best irresponsible and at worst reprehensible.
... If they were meant to be taken wholly serious and did not seek to show people the idiocy of the society they live in.. I sure hope you condemn our social systems the same way you do GTA and South Park.
 
...which is part of what makes both of them at best irresponsible and at worst reprehensible.

If they were being presented in any kind of serious light I would agree. However since both works are based creating an absurd parody of reality and constantly reminding you how absurd it is I truly doubt that any mentally healthy adult is going to be influenced significantly in negative ways.
 
As always, the episode was quite good. She certainly does a good job of explaining the issues and giving many great examples of the problems. All of the episodes of the series are good of course, and this is no exception. Seeing all that stuff together... ugh.

There's really only one issue to debate here -- how much does what someone does in a game affect them in real life? The things depicted are clearly horrible, but the issue of how much impact it has on the player is very important. In the episode, Anita makes a case for why people are affected by what they do in videogames. Okay. But she doesn't mention that not all of the research shows that -- that there are just as many studies showing no connection between videogame violence and real violence or aggression as there are studies showing a link. It's easy to imagine, and see, how playing a game could potentially influence someone, but it clearly doesn't always happen, given the mixed results in studies.

However, I think that being affected by negative portrayals of women could easily happen whether or not someone is actually affected by the violence. Most people don't do violent things like those in games in real life, after all, but stereotyping and sexualizing women? That happens all the time, and games like those certainly do show examples of that culture. Anita's point that the people who insist the most strongly that they aren't being affected my media often are the most affected is a good one. However, it IS true that studies are far from in agreement as to how much games affect people. Just doing violent things in a game doesn't necessarily make people more violent, and that is potentially true about sexualization of women as well.

So yeah, I have mixed feelings as to the impact of this episode. There's no question that the things shown are disturbing when all put together, and it's absolutely true that that kind of negative stereotyping and casual acceptance of sexualization and violence is unpleasant to see, sets a bad standard for anyone who is affected by seeing it which could lead to worse things as per the studies she cites, and probably shouldn't be as common in games as it is. However... how much DOES it affect people? That's a very hard question to answer, of course. It's likely that these stereotypes (and actions) affect many people at least somewhat, but how many, and how much, are open to question. These are bad negative stereotypes, and the 'women as objects' culture these games promote is horrible, but I highly doubt that studies all agree that games actually lead to people those things more; if they don't for violence, which they certainly do not always do (and this is understandable, playing a violent game doesn't usually make people be more violent in real life...), then they probably don't for sexualization either.

Regardless of the direct influence on people though, selling that kind of power fantasy as an important element of many of today's most popular games is definitely disturbing, and it is a problem. I really dislike the negative, stereotyped images being portrayed. But what can be done? That's hard. Just equalizing thing by sexualizing men more is not, as she says, a complete answer, because of the vastly different societal positions men and women have, but it's a start at least; more equality in these depictions might do some good, even though the depictions of women are certainly a bigger issue because of the continuing effects of sexism in society. Of course, cutting those things out is another way, but I doubt that would actually happen... not entirely, at least. And that would be more just hiding the general societal problem this is a reflection of, rather than addressing it...

That whole segment highlighted an almost confusingly incompetent set of premises. She was attempting to highlight how women were treated differently, while disregarding (or obscuring) that the same criticism of the systems and mechanics would apply to any other NPC in those games. The efforts to downplay the systems in the games which communicate and enforce rules against anti-social (and by her measure, anti-women) behavior just seemed counter-intuitive. Characterizing police attempting to stop and arrest a player acting out violence on NPCs as "exhilarating" says much, much more about her assumptions than the attitudes behind the games. That exact criticism would apply to police in real life if that were an accurate take on the events. Police attempting to stop criminals is giving them incentive to commit violent acts? I can't agree with that relative to this conversation.
You don't seem to understand (maybe). The issue is the lack of punishment -- in real life, someone doing something like that who gets caught gets locked up for a long time. But in a game, because it's not considered fun that way, you're able to get away with the most horrendous crimes, even if you get caught, with only the barest slap on the wrist. It's pretty clearly saying 'in this world, doing these things is just fine; don't worry, you won't really get punished'.

So, you can have your fun running from the police, and then there'll be no consequences afterwards. Killing innocents benefits the player because it allows them to play the potentially entertaining 'get away from/kill the police' minigame, knowing that they will be able to resume normal play afterwards without so much as having to load their last save or something.
 
Haven't had a chance to watch this newest video but from watching her previous videos if you actually dig in she makes a ton of factually inaccurate statements. I respect her raising awareness, but given that nobody has ever done a series like this (and definitely ever gotten coverage like she does) she needs to be less Fox News and more Al-jazeera.

Ok, but context is everything - point me to anybody analyzing the medium in as serious a manner as this, and we have a basis for comparison. But otherwise, fair enough it may need finetuning but she's treating it as a serious responsible medium, and although her arguments are obviously carefully selected, it's not hard to string together this argument - because it's generally pretty accurate. This medium is in the stone age in it's depiction of females.

Except she was shocked when she was attacked, and in turn spent about a year touring talking about her experiences being harassed on the Internet rather than producing the videos people fronted the money for. It also seems as though she (and in turn Game Journalists all over) took it as proof the gaming world didn't want equality, when in fact it was largely the vocal minority (which essentially always happens on the Internet) being especially ruthless. As it stands now, I say that reaction hurt her message quite a bit. She needed to push ahead and get the videos out in a timely manner, because it made her seem rather opportunistic.

Again fair enough - but all the more reason that if there's a reasonable silent majority, they need to speak the fuck up and support this. The vocal minority argument only works when you have evidence to the contrary and tbh I don't see a huge amount of evidence to support. I'd like to agree with you, but the burden of proof is on us right now.

This is definitely an overlooked point that people who are somewhat outside of the gaming world don't realize. I'm sure developers would love to give every single NPC in the game a fleshed out backstory, but it's not exactly a reasonable thing to do unless you have nearly a billion dollars to invest into the game.

And if people in her position could hear consistent cogent arguments to the contrary, as opposed to knee jerk, "Don't attack the medium I love" messages, it'd probably be enough to tweak her message and give her a new song to sing. At this point, I'm really glad a polemic like this exists - industry, players and journos alike need to hear alarm bells, not a throat clearing.
 
You don't seem to understand (maybe). The issue is the lack of punishment -- in real life, someone doing something like that who gets caught gets locked up for a long time. But in a game, because it's not considered fun that way, you're able to get away with the most horrendous crimes, even if you get caught, with only the barest slap on the wrist. It's pretty clearly saying 'in this world, doing these things is just fine; don't worry, you won't really get punished'.

Then that's an issue with the morality of the game as a whole. The game encourages violence against women no more than it encourages violence against policemen or black men or dogs. The problem is the way it's discussed and edited in the video makes it seem like these games single out women as targets of violence.
 
Then that's an issue with the morality of the game as a whole. The game encourages violence against women no more than it encourages violence against policemen or black men or dogs. The problem is the way it's discussed and edited in the video makes it seem like these games single out women as targets of violence.

You don't have sex with the other NPCs
 
hmm, i say she raise a good points. I think this is what video games might need to be more creative when making video games. We need more creativity when creating NPC.

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Also, a bit shame her link and transcript did not use quotation from the source she link.
To be honest, i think video only presentation won't be enough to talk about this issues, she need to include her source (hopefully, she also quote her source) to be more informative.
 
...which is part of what makes both of them at best irresponsible and at worst reprehensible.

I'm sure the Puritans would be glad to know judgmental people like you are still around.

Slagging on the powerful is healthy, slagging on the put-upon is bullying.

Aren't you just adorable.

A bunch of rich white men getting together to make fun of white people to a white audience is so so different than a bunch of rich white men getting together to make fun of the disenfranchised to a white audience.

YOU HEARD IT HERE, GUYS! PLEASE PUT YOUR RACE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING AND ONLY TALK ABOUT YOUR RACE!

Ah, so because someone is white it automatically makes them about other races, and thus, okay to mock. Go to poor city ghetto, and you'll fine disenfranchised whites there too. I teach at an inner city school, and some of the worst bullying happens to the handful of white kids there. Just because your skin color is white doesn't guarantee anything.

Oh, by the way, I'm a white guy, talking about white people, SO IT'S OKAY GUIZE!
 
You don't seem to understand (maybe). The issue is the lack of punishment -- in real life, someone doing something like that who gets caught gets locked up for a long time. But in a game, because it's not considered fun that way, you're able to get away with the most horrendous crimes, even if you get caught, with only the barest slap on the wrist.

As I tried to make clear, the first half of my concern is the question of how that "failing" of conveying the severity of your actions is a particularly sexist issue. My point was that Sarkeesian made this point in a circular sort of support of a claim that these games not just allow, but tacitly encourage sexist acts. The game not punishing anti-social behavior potently enough doesn't support that idea.

It's pretty clearly saying 'in this world, doing these things is just fine; don't worry, you won't really get punished'.

So, you can have your fun running from the police, and then there'll be no consequences afterwards. Killing innocents benefits the player because it allows them to play the potentially entertaining 'get away from/kill the police' minigame, knowing that they will be able to resume normal play afterwards without so much as having to load their last save or something.

As I said above, what in terms of in-game logic is a greater statement on player behavior than a literally endless stream of retribution in response to your act of violence, dressed in the symbols of law-enforcement? Calling that a "minigame" strikes me as a weak dismissal of what's happening: A statement on behavior and the risk of player agency being taken away (however momentarily) as censure for bad behavior. And again, unless this scenario doesn't play out for one gender of NPCs, it doesn't support a premise of sexism.
 
Aren't we talking about GTA?

Nope. The example she used where there are supposedly no consequences for violence against a prostitute was Fallout: New Vegas (which as I posted before was both intentionally misleading and absolutely wrong).

In that game you can engage in both hetero and homosexual relationships with many NPCs including but not limited to male and female prostitutes, male and female major/ minor characters, ghouls and robots (FISTO! Though obviously a joke option) and engage in non sexual relationships with homosexual companions (Veronica and Arcade Gannon) as well as persuing homosexual encounters with certain major NPCs including Benny himself.
 
Isn't this what I was saying? You have sex with prostitute NPCs and then you can murder them, which is a combination that stands apart from the regular NPC violence (who you dont have sex with)

You also get money back for killing them after, so you're basically rewarded for it.
 
Aside from bits about violence, I agree with everything else in the video.

I do wonder how sex-positive feminists/women feel about it though.
 
You also get money back for killing them after, so you're basically rewarded for it.

You get money for killing them like any other NPC.

These are essentially the only "solutions" to the problems in her video:
1) No sex OR Sexual partners are inexplicably invulnerable.
2)Women in general are invulnerable, as being able to kill them is sexist. Only men can die; "expendable gender" and all.

Basically, any interaction with a female NPC is probably sexist. Then people go and wonder why video games don't have more of them.
 

I'm surprised they don't get an MA rating for language that graphic. That scene is pretty dumb and embarrassing. I am surprised so many people try to defend GTA as "satire" when so much of its juvenile content has nothing to do with satire.

Though I suppose it's actually kind of funny in how horrible it is. The sex worker says "Yeah fuck this little southern whore" even though she has a pretty obvious Jersey/New York accent. Franklin says "There you go" upon orgasm.

You also get money back for killing them after, so you're basically rewarded for it.

Who would have suspected that a GTA game might reward criminal behavior? You can murder anyone and take their car. Or their weapon. Crime pays, almost always.

At times, trying to approach GTA from a social justice angle seems about as dumb and pointless as trying to address South Park with a social justice angle. Both works are completely and unrepentantly meant to offend and be crude. GTA/South Park is meant to be subversive and transgressive.
 
I'm surprised they don't get an MA rating for language that graphic. That scene is pretty dumb and embarrassing. I am surprised so many people try to defend GTA as "satire" when so much of its juvenile content has nothing to do with satire.

Though I suppose it's actually kind of funny in how horrible it is. The sex worker says "Yeah fuck this little southern whore" even though she has a pretty obvious Jersey/New York accent. Franklin says "There you go" upon orgasm.

Who would have suspected that a GTA game might reward criminal behavior? You can murder anyone and take their car. Or their weapon. Crime pays, almost always.

At times, trying to approach GTA from a social justice angle seems about as dumb and pointless as trying to South Park with a social justice angle. Both works are completely and unrepentantly meant to offend and be crude. GTA/South Park is meant to be subversive and transgressive.

Well I think they are going over board with this one...search youtube - GTA V - The Sex Tape (A Closer Look!)

And what the fuck is this?

Crying
 
If they were being presented in any kind of serious light I would agree. However since both works are based creating an absurd parody of reality and constantly reminding you how absurd it is I truly doubt that any mentally healthy adult is going to be influenced significantly in negative ways.

Some people still don't understand that video games tell stories and can be based in fictional worlds and not. I hate to use this word, but some people are just ignorant in general. They think we still stare at a screen moving candy in multiple directions ignoring our responsibilities and what not. Or they think we're shooting each other (turning ourselves into killing soldiers).
 
You get money for killing them like any other NPC.

These are essentially the only "solutions" to the problems in her video:
1) No sex OR Sexual partners are inexplicably invulnerable.
2)Women in general are invulnerable, as being able to kill them is sexist. Only men can die; "expendable gender" and all.

Basically, any interaction with a female NPC is probably sexist. Then people go and wonder why video games don't have more of them.

There is still the implication that you're getting the money back that you paid her, which is not something that can be said for other people you're getting money off of.

Calling it a "reward" is kind of silly, though, since the money you pick up off of any NPCs is typically a really trivial amount as far as the game goes.
 
Good post, Black Falcon. In terms of the aspect of impact on audiences/players, I would probably rather talk about *shoring up* or *reinforcing* oppressive structures, systems and attitudes. This might be more appropriate and fruitful than referring to direct impact on audiences.
 
There is still the implication that you're getting the money back that you paid her, which is not something that can be said for other people you're getting money off of.

Calling it a "reward" is kind of silly, though, since the money you pick up off of any NPCs is typically a really trivial amount as far as the game goes.

What difference does the implication make? You're still shooting a person in the face and looting their corpse; how does the fact that the loot was at one point yours make it any more reprehensible?

I've literally never understood that argument, really, and it strikes me as straw-grasping in an attempt to justify the whole "misogynist conspiracy" line. There are problems facing women in video games, but the fact that some of the people you murder can be hookers seems to be of rather low priority.
 
I've literally never understood that argument, really, and it strikes me as straw-grasping in an attempt to justify the whole "misogynist conspiracy" line. There are problems facing women in video games, but the fact that some of the people you murder can be hookers seems to be of rather low priority.
I feel like the blowback from that Ubisoft dev's ridiculous comment has had more efficacy against female under-representation in games than all of Anita's preaching to the choir.

I fear that her showing these clips and gameplay mechanics completely devoid of context to students (one of her goals was for this to be shown in college classrooms) will only further serve to demonize games, and keep the people who digest them far away from development instead of trying to better the industry from the inside out.
 
I suppose it's a completely tangential line of discussion, but it seems kinda lame that in nearly 15 years the GTA series hasn't found any more interesting ways to be a criminal beyond the usual robberies and pedestrian/prostitute murder. It just seems lame that Rockstar still believes that killing prostitutes is so novel that they have to go out of their way to include it. Sarkeesian's clips from other games make it clear that that activity has become a rather common and dull standard.

Whether or not you think that content should be in the game, I think we can all maybe agree that Rockstar's time would really be better spent looking to give us new ways to be a criminal. The Heists in GTA5 were really just a series of inter-related missions, each one following a very typical and played out mission structure. Heists seemed to offer some semblance of choice in a series that has become increasingly restrictive about what you can and can't do. But at the end of the day no matter what Heist choice you made it's going to be a shootout followed by a car chase. Or a car chase followed by a shootout.
 
As I tried to make clear, the first half of my concern is the question of how that "failing" of conveying the severity of your actions is a particularly sexist issue. My point was that Sarkeesian made this point in a circular sort of support of a claim that these games not just allow, but tacitly encourage sexist acts. The game not punishing anti-social behavior potently enough doesn't support that idea.
Things in a game don't just happen, they happen because that function was programmed in to the game, as she pointed out. You can do those things in the game because the developers want you to. That is clearly encouraging negatively-stereotyped acts, or worse.

As I said above, what in terms of in-game logic is a greater statement on player behavior than a literally endless stream of retribution in response to your act of violence, dressed in the symbols of law-enforcement? Calling that a "minigame" strikes me as a weak dismissal of what's happening: A statement on behavior and the risk of player agency being taken away (however momentarily) as censure for bad behavior. And again, unless this scenario doesn't play out for one gender of NPCs, it doesn't support a premise of sexism.
You're ignoring the point, when they finally catch you you essentially aren't punished at all, because doing those violent things to innocents is fun, and you wouldn't want to ruin the players' fun, right?

Aside from bits about violence, I agree with everything else in the video.

I do wonder how sex-positive feminists/women feel about it though.
Considering that the women in the games depicted are pretty much all prostitutes, I'd think that there would still be a problem with the themes... it's not like these games are depicting real relationships! Unless there are some who are completely okay with such a clearly gendered depiction of prostitution, despite its obvious problems? This is even more clear for the games like GTA which let you kill them and get your money back... or that awful achievement in Red Dead Redemption.

Good post, Black Falcon. In terms of the aspect of impact on audiences/players, I would probably rather talk about *shoring up* or *reinforcing* oppressive structures, systems and attitudes. This might be more appropriate and fruitful than referring to direct impact on audiences.
Yeah, that's fair, for gender stereotypes particularly. It is a somewhat different thing from videogame violence, and while any one example might not mean too much, given the sheer weight of negative stereotyped scenes, as shown in the video... yeah, it's not too hard to see how that could help reinforce previously existing negative gender stereotypes.
 
What difference does the implication make? You're still shooting a person in the face and looting their corpse; how does the fact that the loot was at one point yours make it any more reprehensible?

I've literally never understood that argument, really, and it strikes me as straw-grasping in an attempt to justify the whole "misogynist conspiracy" line. There are problems facing women in video games, but the fact that some of the people you murder can be hookers seems to be of rather low priority.

You really don't think it makes a difference? I see people point that out about the whole hooker-killing thing in GTA games (that they're getting a 'refund') all the time. It's possibly the only time some people even make note that the NPCs drop money when you kill them.

I agree that this isn't the biggest problem facing women in games, but it's still a dumb thing that's been around for a while and deserves some criticism. The 'misogynist conspiracy' thing is silly, though. The bias in the gaming industry is pretty plain to see, there's no need to frame it (or pretend it's being framed) like it's a secret.
 
Things in a game don't just happen, they happen because that function was programmed in to the game, as she pointed out. You can do those things in the game because the developers want you to. That is clearly encouraging negatively-stereotyped acts, or worse.

It's a game about a living as a disgusting criminal. Of course it is going to encourage negatively-stereotyped acts. Torturing someone innocent is mandatory, killing policemen is mandatory. Mowing down pedestrians and killing women is optional, and (in the grand scheme of things in the GTA5 universe) is not really encouraged. You gain almost nothing from doing it, and the repercussions of it are no more serious than any other heinous act.
 
I suppose it's a completely tangential line of discussion, but it seems kinda lame that in nearly 15 years the GTA series hasn't found any more interesting ways to be a criminal beyond the usual robberies and pedestrian/prostitute murder. It just seems lame that Rockstar still believes that killing prostitutes is so novel that they have to go out of their way to include it. .

They don't 'go out of their way to include it'. The actual mechanic of being able to hire a prostitute, sure, that they 'go out of their way' for, but as for 'prostitute murder' being a feature of the game, it isn't. This isn't some mini game that Rockstar rewards you for completing, you have the choice to kill anyone in that game, if it happens to be a prostitute, that's merely a choice of the player's. There isn't any specific attempt to tell you to do it by the developers, so the point is moot.
 
Killing for a refund has been around forever in games. In games like Oblivion and Skyrim, the shopkeepers keep their inventory usually in separate chests, so many times if you are a cheap skate, you can buy what you need then kill them to get your money back. I know I did this in Fallout 3 because in the Evergreen Mills there is a bandit shopkeeper with a unique shotgun and he had a locked cabinet with his inventory in it. Getting refunds via clubbing the other person is more of gamers playing the mechanics of the game. I doubt anyone is also really racist to all those Khajiit traders wandering between towns, but I bet the thought has crossed many peoples' minds since they hold random loot and are really vulnerable with barely any guards around.
 
They don't 'go out of their way to include it'. The actual mechanic of being able to hire a prostitute, sure, that they 'go out of their way' for, but as for 'prostitute murder' being a feature of the game, it isn't.

That's kinda what I mean anyway though. The prostitution mechanic is deliberately included, as is all the related animations, models, and voiceover work. And it's all put together with the very obvious knowledge that people are going to gleefully kill a lot of those girls once they've experienced a very lame and un-graphic sex sequence. Many players won't do it at all, and most will probably only do it once.

I'd rather that effort go into new mission styles or new minigames - things that provide a direct benefit to the player rather than a cheap one-time thrill.
 
Things in a game don't just happen, they happen because that function was programmed in to the game, as she pointed out. You can do those things in the game because the developers want you to. That is clearly encouraging negatively-stereotyped acts, or worse.

In what way is allowing violence (or non-violence) toward any NPC, and being punished for harm to any NPC sexist, in particular?


You're ignoring the point, when they finally catch you you essentially aren't punished at all, because doing those violent things to innocents is fun, and you wouldn't want to ruin the players' fun, right?

What stronger signal would you consider reasonable for this style of game compared to what's been described? I don't mean that rhetorically.
 
That's kinda what I mean anyway though. The prostitution mechanic is deliberately included, as is all the related animations, models, and voiceover work. And it's all put together with the very obvious knowledge that people are going to gleefully kill a lot of those girls once they've experienced a very lame and un-graphic sex sequence. Many players won't do it at all, and most will probably only do it once.

I'd rather that effort go into new mission styles or new minigames - things that provide a direct benefit to the player rather than a cheap one-time thrill.

People indiscriminately kill in video games when given the choice regardless, it's not like the developers are deliberately forcing this notion onto the player.

I'll agree that Rockstar are pretty awful at dealing with female characters in their games, especially considering that GTAV was the perfect opportunity for them to add in a female character who was actually interesting, but there is a real tendency these days to view video games in an overtly politicised manner, when the reality is that it's often just player choices within a sandbox causing the issue.

I'll gladly back well-founded arguments on the subject, but not everything is a political statement or patriarchal doctrine.
 
You really don't think it makes a difference? I see people point that out about the whole hooker-killing thing in GTA games (that they're getting a 'refund') all the time. It's possibly the only time some people even make note that the NPCs drop money when you kill them.

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. Amongst my group of friends, nobody gave a damn about the whole killing hookers thing until feminists started bringing it up. In fact, I could argue that activists made it worse by constantly shining a spotlight on it.

I agree that this isn't the biggest problem facing women in games, but it's still a dumb thing that's been around for a while and deserves some criticism.

It isn't deserving of criticism at all, unless you're talking about killing NPCs in general. Nobody makes a fuss when you buy something off a merchant in Fallout and then kill them for your cash back. The entire argument is nothing but a double-standard, made even more obvious in this video where she complains about how killing female prostitutes in Fallout is sexist but apparently sees no issue with killing male prostitutes. It's extremely easy to get the idea that it isn't the act that is getting criticism, but the gender of the victim.
 
The Mature gaming scene is really something haha.

EDIT: I don't fully understand the point of the whole section about violence. Most of those games let you kill every NPC you can see, so there's no particular difference made to the female NPCs. The fact that they are sexualized is completely separate from the killing/shooting/other stupid stuff you do in those games.
 
People indiscriminately kill in video games when given the choice regardless, it's not like the developers are deliberately forcing this notion onto the player.

If the GTA games had a mechanic where I could buy a hot dog from a street vendor, a minigame where I could eat the hot dog or put on toppings, and it made me sit through 2 minutes of Michael/Trevor making small talk with the hot dog vendor, I would feel exactly the same way about it as I do the hookers. It's something that would just feel as dumb and superfluous as the "hiring a prostitute" mechanic in GTAV. I'd rather have them spend development resources on useful or interesting types of gameplay instead of throwaway fluff.
 
If they were being presented in any kind of serious light I would agree. However since both works are based creating an absurd parody of reality and constantly reminding you how absurd it is I truly doubt that any mentally healthy adult is going to be influenced significantly in negative ways.

There was a thread in OT about "faggot" and dozens and dozens of posters posting "yeah I agree with South Park".

Because that wasn't satire. The message was "hey saying faggot is totally not harmful". Which isn't true. But a lot of people looked to it for guidance.

Ah, so because someone is white it automatically makes them about other races, and thus, okay to mock. Go to poor city ghetto, and you'll fine disenfranchised whites there too. I teach at an inner city school, and some of the worst bullying happens to the handful of white kids there. Just because your skin color is white doesn't guarantee anything.

Oh, by the way, I'm a white guy, talking about white people, SO IT'S OKAY GUIZE!

I'm sorry to hear you're a teacher you need to work on your reading comprehension. Poor white people fall under "disenfranchised" too.
 
Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. Amongst my group of friends, nobody gave a damn about the whole killing hookers thing until feminists started bringing it up. In fact, I could argue that activists made it worse by constantly shining a spotlight on it.

I perceive that you are using "giving a damn about the whole killing thing" as in outrage/disgust/etc.; I jus mean that people notice it and make a comment. Not sure what the point of dismissing my anecdotal evidence with your anecdotal evidence was, though.

It isn't deserving of criticism at all, unless you're talking about killing NPCs in general. Nobody makes a fuss when you buy something off a merchant in Fallout and then kill them for your cash back.

So do you want to start a thread about it? I'd wager that people have also noticed that to be rather messed up. You aren't having sex with these merchants though, which is the particularly foul mix of sex and violence that people criticize.

The entire argument is nothing but a double-standard, made even more obvious in this video where she complains about how killing female prostitutes in Fallout is sexist but apparently sees no issue with killing male prostitutes. It's extremely easy to get the idea that it isn't the act that is getting criticism, but the gender of the victim.

I haven't played a game with a male prostitute yet, but I've seen the female prostitute violence routine in GTA many times since the PS2 games. I'll take your word for it that male prostitutes are dying a dog's death in gaming somewhere, but killing female prostitutes in a game (and other sexually-charged acts of violence on women in games) these days is so old and worn out that it could be criticized on the simple, apolitical basis of "we're bored with that"
 
I'm always conflicted about these. I feel like she usually makes valid points, but takes them too far. The depiction of prostitutes in these games are so, so cringe-worthy, though :S As I don't like open world games I manage to avoid most of these, so it was my first time seeing some of these. "Mature", yeah.
 
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