2014 FIFA World Cup |OT4| What can European men do against such reckless heat?

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WoodenLung said:
Hardly even any fights in there, the old GOATs did that better.

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Pepe the best though.

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Derp1na said:
England don't have a problem producing great players, it's just getting them to do it at international level that's the problem.

The likes of Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Terry and Cole were all world class at one stage. Before that you had the likes of Beckham, Ince, Seaman and Campbell. Before that, you had the likes of Hoddle, Robson, Lineker and Gascoigne.

They don't really have anyone great at the moment but I don't see why the likes of Sterling, Barkley and Shaw can't push on and become great players.

Hiring an absolute idiot like Hodgson doesn't help.
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The likes of Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Terry and Cole were all world class at one stage.
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you what? Cole was world class, Ferdinand too. The others? No.

Before that you had the likes of Beckham, Ince, Seaman and Campbell.
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I like Beckham but only Campbell would have been a serious contender to get into any World XI at their peak.

Before that, you had the likes of Hoddle, Robson, Lineker and Gascoigne
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Hoddle yes, Robson yes, Lineker almost but not quite, Gascoigne lol no.

Which brings us back to English players being hyped up so much that expectations become unrealistic and there's going to be an inevitable backlash because reaching the quarter finals is seen as a giant failure for a team full of "world class" players.
 
Uzzy said:
Just on this point, I have to ask everyone.. just who else would be good in the role of England manager, provided that the FA want an English manager leading England? Brendan Rodgers is probably the most promising manager from the UK that we've got, but why would he leave Liverpool now? Besides, he's Northern Irish, would he even be acceptable to the FA?
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I asked this in football gaf the other day too and no one came up with any decent answers, especially when half the people seem to think the manager has to be English. Fat Sam? Pardew? Fucking hell lol, Roy is probably the better option there. No manager in his prime is going to take that job either, they will have far more prestigious jobs that also won't necessarily see them fail like the England job will time after time, as the team is stuck with utterly mediocre players half the positions.
 
Bosnia's problem was that they played with Medjunianin, Misimovic and Pjanic together with just 3 defenders (Lulic isn't a real fullback) ....
All of them are technically gifted players but useless at tracking back and chasing balls, only Besic provided some cover in midfield and the consequence was that Nigeria had tons of space for their counterattacks. Subs were pretty weird, Hajrovic and Lulic shouldn't have been taken off and Spahic was left all alone against Emenike...
 
WoodenLung said:
I asked this in football gaf the other day too and no one came up with any decent answers, especially when half the people seem to think the manager has to be English. Fat Sam? Pardew? Fucking hell lol, Roy is probably the better option there. No manager in his prime is going to take that job either, they will have far more prestigious jobs that also won't necessarily see them fail like the England job will time after time, as the team is stuck with utterly mediocre players half the positions.
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Has to be the best friend of all journalists, 'Arry Redknapp innit?
 
WoodenLung said:
Hardly even any fights in there, the old GOATs did that better.

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I think the last of the old GOAT guard died when Zizou was sent off in 2006. I'm drawing a blank on the English player who was an absolute maniac. Played during the late 80's maybe early 90's. Certified psychopath.
 
Zvonimir Boban said:
you what? Cole was world class, Ferdinand too. The others? No.



I like Beckham but only Campbell would have been a serious contender to get into any World XI at their peak.



Hoddle yes, Robson yes, Lineker almost but not quite, Gascoigne lol no.

Which brings us back to English players being hyped up so much that expectations become unrealistic and there's going to be an inevitable backlash because reaching the quarter finals is seen as a giant failure for a team full of "world class" players.
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Well, it would depend on your definition of world class. Your definition makes it sound like there are about 11 world class players in the world. Rooney is on course to become United's highest scorer and England's top scorer. I can't name 3 better centre forwards than him in 09/10 and 11/12. As for Terry, I don't rate him anywhere close to Ferdinand but his fellow pros do. UEFA Club defender of the year for 3 years and UEFA team of the year for 4 (edit: to be fair, it's voted for by fans, but he has been PFA player of the year and been in numerous PFA teams in the year as well). Questioning whether Gerrard was world class just seems nuts to me. The guy was in beast mode from 04-09. If he left Liverpool for Madrid or Chelsea, and they both tried signing him, he'd be more highly regarded.

Beckham is one of those players ridiculously underrated by revisionists. He came second in the Ballon d'Or in '99 but wouldn't be a serious contender to get in a world XI at his peak?
 
Derp1na said:
Well, it would depend on your definition of world class. Your definition makes it sound like there are about 11 world class players in the world. Rooney is on course to become United's highest scorer and England's top scorer. I can't name 3 better centre forwards than him in 09/10 and 11/12. As for Terry, I don't rate him anywhere close to Ferdinand but his fellow pros do. UEFA Club defender of the year for 3 years and UEFA team of the year for 4. Questioning whether Gerrard was world class just seems nuts to me. The guy was in beast mode from 04-09. If he left Liverpool for Madrid or Chelsea, and they both tried signing him, he'd be more highly regarded.

Beckham is one of those players ridiculously underrated by revisionists. He came second in the Ballon d'Or in '99 but wouldn't be a serious contender to get in a world XI at his peak?
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Terry is a quality player but he's not at that top level of a player such as Nesta.

Same with Beckham, I really like him as I said and he gets shat on a lot because of the pretty hair, celeb wife and starring in adverts for everything on the planet but at his peak he wasn't as good on the wing as Figo for example and he was a decent but not great central midfielder.

Rooney is immensely talented but you need more than that to be world class. What's with this need to try and claim all these players are world class? Why can't you accept that good players are, you know, good?

Now, we move on to our final matter of business. Gerrard has all the ability in the world and absolutely zero footballing intelligence, which means he's great for youtube compilations and the occasional hero moment but he's also a total liability at the highest level. There's a reason why Rafa moved him out wide or played him behind the strikers, he's too fucking thick to be relied upon to run the game from central midfield. If he had ended up at Real it wouldn't have taken too long before they shunted him to fullback or left wing.

With his range of passing and shooting he should be the best player England have had in the last 15 years but he's a completely stupid shit cunt and as such every England manager of the last ten years should have told him to piss off because Paul Scholes is playing instead.
 
Man, watching videos of real Ronaldo...for 6 or so years he had great pace, and he was god-tier. Of course he was still excellent even afterwards, but with each year he got fatter and slower.
 
vilmer_ said:
I think the last of the old GOAT guard died when Zizou was sent off in 2006. I'm drawing a blank on the English player who was an absolute maniac. Played during the late 80's maybe early 90's. Certified psychopath.
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Maybe thinking of Vinnie Jones? Him and his Wimbledon crazy gang are pussycats in comparison compared to the Birmingham City side in the mid 80's, I think St Andrews was home to Mick Harford, Robert Hopkins, Roy McDonough, Julian Dicks, Pat Van Den Hauwe and some other psychos I can't remember all in the same team.
 
Zvonimir Boban said:
Terry is a quality player but he's not at that top level of a player such as Nesta.

Same with Beckham, I really like him as I said and he gets shat on a lot because of the pretty hair, celeb wife and starring in adverts for everything on the planet but at his peak he wasn't as good on the wing as Figo for example and he was a decent but not great central midfielder.

Rooney is immensely talented but you need more than that to be world class. What's with this need to try and claim all these players are world class? Why can't you accept that good players are, you know, good?

Now, we move on to our final matter of business. Gerrard has all the ability in the world and absolutely zero footballing intelligence, which means he's great for youtube compilations and the occasional hero moment but he's also a total liability at the highest level. There's a reason why Rafa moved him out wide or played him behind the strikers, he's too fucking thick to be relied upon to run the game from central midfield. If he had ended up at Real it wouldn't have taken too long before they shunted him to fullback or left wing.

With his range of passing and shooting he should be the best player England have had in the last 15 years but he's a completely stupid shit cunt and as such every England manager of the last ten years should have told him to piss off because Paul Scholes is playing instead.
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Nesta and Terry are both different eras. Nesta and Rio are by far the best central defenders I've seen (not quite old enough to have seen Baresi and Maldini at their best), but Nesta was pretty much done half way through the decade, whereas Terry was still on his game. How many better centre backs were there from 05-11? This is an era where the likes of Sergio Ramos and Pique were regarded as the best centre backs in the world. Centre backs have gone to shit since the early 00s, which is why Arsenal fans think Koscielny is the best centre back in the world.

I think Beckham was up there with Figo, particularly from 99-03 (even though he got dropped at the end of his time at United, his performances against Madrid just go to show how great he was).

As I said, it really depends on your definition of world class. Mine would be the top 5 or so players from each position. The actual definition of world class is 'ranking among the best in the world'. I think Rooney has ranked among the best centre forwards in the world on more than one occasion.

I don't think Gerrard was much of a liability when he was scoring 24 goals in 44 games, including 7 in 10 in the Champions League. He dragged a mediocre Liverpool side to a CL win in 2005. Sure, he's made mistakes and bottled it loads of times, but you can't write those seasons off. As for Scholes, I completely forgot about him because we're talking about England. He's my favourite player and of course he should have played ahead of Lampard or Gerrard, but that just goes back to the stupid managers point.
 
Scholes was ahead of his time. His range of passing and shooting and vision was next to none. But he was small and a bad tackler (very bad ). The short sighted vision was to pack the midfield with brave lions. Players who can get stuck in and win the ball. (Never mind about what to do with it once we had it).

Has any national team wasted as much talent as England?
 
Zvonimir Boban said:
Terry is a quality player but he's not at that top level of a player such as Nesta.
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Bullshit. Terry is a lion heart and one of the very best defenders to every walk the earth.

But that is what these discussions will always boil down to. "X is not as good as Y was". and then someone will post some name everyone else are too young to even remember watching.
 
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