Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

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MaverickHunterAsh said:
Ugh, you're right. Never mind. It's inescapable.
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It might be better if we saw someone like the Ice Climbers, Wario, or even Meta Knight, but I feel like Falco might be the worst for Melee comparisons haha.

Anyway, do you guys thing we'll still get personalized credits music? What do you think the newcomers will get?
 
As a Falco main, I loved all his changes that were made from Melee to Brawl. New Neutral air, forward Smash, neutral jabs, and reflector are my personal favorites.

More changes would be cool, but Brawl Falco is perfect, in my opinion. Really nailed the feel and style of the character.
 
Kouichi said:
As a Falco main, I loved all the changes that were made form Melee to Brawl. New Neutral air, forward Smash, neutral jabs, and reflector are my personal favorites.

More changes would be cool, but Brawl Falco is perfect, in my opinion. Really nailed the feel and style of the character.
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Especially the landmaster.
 
Weltall Zero said:
Behold the best game of all time, then:
Seriously, if you believe more options always equal better, you're wrong. More options = more complexity. Your mistake is assuming complexity equals depth, which is not the case. Sometimes complexity adds depth, other times it's the opposite. That's like game design 101, by the way; if you find that thought new, it's obvious you're much less versed in game design than you think.
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There's a difference between hundreds of options and the 3 things the competitive community wants in the game (dash dancing, crouch cancelling and some form of L-cancelling), the options people want are so that a more offfensive play style can be incorporated because as the game stands it, like brawl, is not encouraged compared to a defensive playstyle.


Responses in bold because I couldn't be arsed doing all the separate quote tags:
Weltall Zero said:
I personally don't have any issue with wanting SSB4 be more like Melee (quite the opposite).
I do have issues with the following, though:
1) Stating something is better "because I say so", i.e. mistaking the conclusion for the premise ("more options mean a better game").
Tell me how Dash dancing, crouch cancelling and some form of L-cancelling don't make the game better
2) Painting all those who like Brawl better, or in more general terms, disagree with you, automatically as casuals, and from them, automatically as people who have no clue what they're talking about and whose opinion doesn't count.
Nowhere in that quote did I state that people who prefer brawl are automatically casuals, I said that the game was geared more towards casual play and that people that play the game at a casual level who don't explore the depth in a game shouldn't bother getting into the conversation when they don't know anything about the situation
3) Mistaking complexity for depth.
Again, tell me how the three things I mentioned (which is all I want in the game btw) don't add depth.
4) The use of "entitled" as a meaningless epithet to paint vocal opponents in a negative light, when the user of the term is usually even more vocal and demanding.
Ok, I don't see how a person that wants an entire audience to be alienated is less demanding than someone who just wants the game to be better for everyone, vocal anti-competitive players generally are more entitled because they want the game to only be playable their way where competitive players generally don't mind if the game appeals to both audiences
5) When logic fails, swear a lot.
Already mentioned that I swear a lot just because I'm used to it being from the north of England, who even gives a fuck anyway? I'm typing shit on the internet not writing some kind of formal report.
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Weltall Zero said:
I put the blame entirely on people like you. Using terms like "their stupid opinions" is exactly the sort of unacceptable behaviour that poisons the entire discussion. But feel free to keep seeing the mote in everyone else's eye, I don't expect you to give one second's thought to anything I've written.
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I don't get how you people keep mistaking what I mean, when I say vocal anti-competitive I'm talking about the people who only want the game to appeal the casual fanbase and act like the game should not be competitive at all either out of stupidity or spite, these people have stupid opinions and they wouldn't exist in such a large number if it weren't for sakurai's public opinion of the competitive community and the general direction of brawl having things that look like they're there to spite the competitive fanbase, this makes them feel like they're validated in their opinion and get a whole lot more vocal about it.
There's not that many of those types of people here thankfully, but I've never said I was talking about GAF specifically, I've been talking about the online smash community as a whole.
I don't care about what the average johnny casual thinks about the game because at best that person wants everyone to be happy and at worst he's just fine with what he gets, fine by me.

If you think I'm worse than hardcore anti-competitives for getting pissed off at them, then whatever, doesn't make much sense to me though.

Also that's some real holier than thou bullshit at the end, whatever gave you the impression that I wasn't even going to read your posts or whatever?
 
JoeInky said:
Why would Falco be revealed anyway considering he's always an unlockable character?
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Well here are the characters that weren't revealed until after Brawl came out:

tumblr_n3vq0zL6LV1sw8d3mo1_500.jpg


I mean, I doubt he'll be revealed tomorrow and I expect he'll still be secret, but it's not entirely impossible or unlikely.
 
JoeInky said:
There's a difference between hundreds of options and the 3 things the competitive community wants in the game (dash dancing, crouch cancelling and some form of L-cancelling), the options people want are so that a more offfensive play style can be incorporated because as the game stands it, like brawl, is not encouraged compared to a defensive playstyle.
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I don't think they should bring L-cancelling back. L-cancelling is one of those things you would want to do in every single scenario. There is no reason not to L-cancel.

Any player would want to reduce lag after any aerial. In that case, why make players press a button to do something that they would want to do in every situation? Just reduce landing lag across the board.
 
Weltall Zero said:
Why would I?
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Oh, so you're only going to reply to that one part so you can make more "clever" jabs about the fact that I used a fallacy.

That's fine, but I feel like I've already made a post about why those three things are good for smash, but I don't know why...

Oh wait, that's right, it's because I already did make that post.

JoeInky said:
OK, I'm just going to give a straight up in depth post about what I (and the competitive community generally) want in this game, what it means for the competitive viability and how this affects the casual player.

Increase the window for dash dancing

Alright, some people have already pointed to videos where characters are "dash dancing" in the current build, but they seem to misunderstand the use of dash dancing and what is happening in the current build.

A dash dance is basically where you just change direction mid dash, simple as that, when you start a dash there's a certain window of opportunity where you can reverse and start dashing in the other direction.
This just gives you more control over your character, it doesn't lock you into an unsafe dash and allows you to play mindgames with the opponent trying to force them to read whether you're going to go straight in with a dash attack/aerial or delay it a bit and react to what they do.

It's literally just pressing the stick in the opposite direction so it's not a complex input and it doesn't offer the character any real physical advantage other than the mind game aspect, so it's not something that is too complicated for the casual gamer and I believe is pretty intuitive honestly.

In the current build, the window where you can change direction is dramatically reduced to the point where you can only do it by staying in the same spot, you travel no actual distance so it's usefulness as a bait is negligible.

Less landing lag

Ok, one of the changes in this game is a general increase in landing lag, I'm completely fine with the increased lag when you do an air dodge, I think that's a great way of stopping people from spamming it so much.
But the increased landing lag when you do an aerial attack is something that again limits movement options, because it keeps you stuck on the ground unable to do anything for longer it ruins your ability to followup an attack with another to have some form of combo game, some people say "well that just increases the effectiveness of ground based approaches right? It stops people from spamming aerials too because they're not safe anymore, how is that bad?"

At a very basic level I could see why someone might think this, but 95% of the characters are based around an aerial game and you don't increase the effectiveness of ground-based characters by nerfing everyone elses aerial game, you do it by improving the ground game of those characters (stuff like super armour on moves to stop them being knocked into thee air as much is what helps, see P:M bowser).

There are quite a few people then that have been asking for some form of Lag-cancelling (the official term is soft landing), this is where, in melee and 64, you press a button several frames before you land to decrease the amount of landing frames, what this does is increase the viability of offensive approaches rather than giving all the advantage to the person on defense.

Me? I hate L-Cancelling, there is no reason whatsoever to not lag cancel your move and it's an annoying input to time, especially for people like me with slow reactions and bad muscle memory.

So what a lot of people have proposed is to just reduce lag off of aerials in general, you feel less stuck to ground unable to do anything for long periods of time but I generally want something different that would improve the combo game but also give more opportunities for a punish game.
A good balance would be to make moves have less landing lag if you connect with either a player or a shield, but if you miss the attack because the other player dodges, then you get the increased lag that can lead to a punish, aerial characters get to keep their combo game but they still have risk if they just constantly try to short hop aerial you all the time.

Momentum conservation
Ever wondered why captain falcon sucked in brawl despite having buffs? This is the reason (as well as no L-Cancelling, but this hurt more I think).
In melee, if you ran and jumped, as opposed to jumping from a stand still, you jumped further due to the conservation of momentum, it makes the game more fluid and just makes more sense in general, they removed this in brawl so you always just jumped the same distance regardless of your speed.
It allows characters based around being fast to actually make more use out of that speed and doesn't require any extra inputs or anything, it's just something that makes sense.

I think those are just the basics, there's a few other things I've forgotten that certain people want and certain people don't (I've probably forgotten at least 1 actually important one), but this is what a lot of people consider necessary to make smash 4 really good as a competitive game.
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Freezie KO said:
I don't think they should bring L-cancelling back. L-cancelling is one of those things you would want to do in every single scenario. There is no reason not to L-cancel.

Any player would want to reduce lag after any aerial. In that case, why make players press a button to do something that they would want to do in every situation? Just reduce landing lag across the board.
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Well that's good because I don't actually want L-Cancelling as a button press back either (see the above quote).
 
Beelzebufo said:
He could be unlocked from the start this time, like Marth.

Both would have 2 start, one unlockable.
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Huh, I forgot Marth was an unlockable in brawl.

If the leak was true, that would be fantastic if only for the fact that it meant the gematsu leak wasn't all of the newcomers.

I'd like to see falco's model anyway, he's always been my favourite smash character in every game he's in even if I don't use him in brawl or P:M.
 
SenorArdilla said:
So all the characters that have been revealed so far are available at the start?
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No one knows for certain, but there's no reason to think they won't be. The only unlockable characters in Brawl that were revealed beforehand were Snake and Sonic, and they were stated special cases.

As a matter of fact, Sakurai hasn't mentioned unlockable characters at all this time around.
 
JoeInky said:
Oh wait, that's right, it's because I already did make that post.
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I read that post and I actually mostly agree, didn't realize it was yours. Fair enough, that's enough to prove your points. Still the other points I raised stand, but I guess we could keep arguing forever, which makes little sense as I do consider Melee's physics and mechanics (except the overtly complex ones like dash dancing) superior.

Still, every time you lash out at someone for disagreeing with you, you entrench that person more in their position. The competitive community is best served by people with enough patience to explain things over and over, or at least not antagonize those with different views.
 
JoeInky said:
There's a difference between hundreds of options and the 3 things the competitive community wants in the game (dash dancing, crouch cancelling and some form of L-cancelling), the options people want are so that a more offfensive play style can be incorporated because as the game stands it, like brawl, is not encouraged compared to a defensive playstyle.
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Wait, do we want crouch cancelling? I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I find it to be one of the things about Melee that I don't really care for. Makes it hard to be safe with non-grab attacks at low percents.

(Or do you mean cancelling dashes with crouching?)
 
I'm predicting...

Prevalence of the Internet/spoilers + lots of people who want to use the full roster at the start + "individuality"/Amiibo/customization/etc. + Mr. Game & Watch tease + a handful of typically hidden characters already revealed = no hidden characters

There will still be tons of hidden stages, trophies, music, and other goodies, though.
 
Neiteio said:
Why are some people expecting Falco tonight?

Did Sakurai's cat post a picture of itself coughing up blue feathers?
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There was a "leak" which claimed Falco would be this week. Basically if Falco is this week the leak had credibility, if not it's just another waste of time.
 
Neiteio said:
Why are some people expecting Falco tonight?

Did Sakurai's cat post a picture of itself coughing up blue feathers?
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We're desperate.

Green Mamba said:
No one knows for certain, but there's no reason to think they won't be. The only unlockable characters in Brawl that were revealed beforehand were Snake and Sonic, and they were stated special cases.

As a matter of fact, Sakurai hasn't mentioned unlockable characters at all this time around.
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He did mention how Luigi is usually unlockable, but the Year of Luigi made things different this time around.
 
Weltall Zero said:
No, I'm doing that because that's your entire argument (in fact you repeated that twice). You don't bother proving your points and expect us to provide proof to the contrary; why should I bother with anything else?
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Because I'd already linked to a post where I explained why they're good for smash because I didn't want to post that long ass quote again but you glossed over that so I actually posted it in it's entirety and you still ignored it.

emb said:
Wait, do we want crouch cancelling? I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I find it to be one of the things about Melee that I don't really care for. Makes it hard to be safe with non-grab attacks at low percents.

(Or do you mean cancelling dashes with crouching?)
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Yes I do mean crouch-cancelled dashes, It's in the long quote I posted a few moments ago.
 
Neiteio said:
Why are some people expecting Falco tonight?

Did Sakurai's cat post a picture of itself coughing up blue feathers?
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Random poster on gamefaqs said that Falco will be revealed this week. He also had some other details like Mewtwo returning.

No reason to believe him, but he has an expiration date so~
 
JoeInky said:
Because I'd already linked to a post where I explained why they're good for smash because I didn't want to post that long ass quote again but you glossed over that so I actually posted it in it's entirety and you still ignored it.
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Yeah, my bad; I corrected my post. I didn't realize that post was yours. I'm off to sleep, so g'night everyone!
 
Ryce said:
I'm predicting...

Prevalence of the Internet/spoilers + lots of people who want to use the full roster at the start + "individuality"/Amiibo/customization/etc. + Mr. Game & Watch tease + a handful of typically hidden characters already revealed = no hidden characters

There will still be tons of hidden stages, trophies, music, and other goodies, though.
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Brawl didn't have hidden stages, so I don't expect that either.

No hidden characters or stages would be best.
 
SenorArdilla said:
Some guy on GameFAQs said that his friend/relative who worked at Nintendo had insider info.
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This is the most laughable source of rumor. At least he provided a soon verifiable piece of info though, so after tonight we can stop talking about it.

Would be hilarious if Sakurai got wind of some rumor like that, and made some piece of it seem real.
 
JoeInky said:
Well that's good because I don't actually want L-Cancelling as a button press back either (see the above quote).
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Ah. Cool. I agree with the three things you posted. I think the chances for all of those changes to happen in Smash 4 are slim though. Sakurai really likes building off the foundation of Brawl.

Right now, I feel that Smash 4 will be able to be competitive to play, and I'll enjoy it that way. The problem is that it'll be a defense-focused game, and its competitive value will be hurt by that. It won't be fun to watch, and tournaments and longevity will suffer.

For instance, I didn't like tripping or balance issues, but Brawl was fun to play for what it was. But I can't sit through watching a Brawl game. Yet I watched every Melee MLG match I could last weekend.
 
Weltall Zero said:
Yeah, my bad; I corrected my post. I didn't realize that post was yours.
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I realise that I lash out at people (probably too much) and that it's not exactly the best way to represent the smash community in the best light to certain audiences.

But it just gets hard not to be pissed off when you deal with it so much, especially for a game you love.

I mean, I spent 3 nights in a row arguing (and I mean I literally argued with them for 8 hours straight through the night) with people over on /v/ who I'm pretty sure were just shitposting to get a reaction from me, I started out calm but I've become increasingly sick of it and so used to the idea that people are doing it out of spite now that I just default to being the aggressor.

I know it's not the best mentality to be coming to GAF with considering it's userbase, but sometimes I see a post and it just sets me off, probably why I get banned so much.

Freezie KO said:
Ah. Cool. I agree with the three things you posted. I think the chances for all of those changes to happen in Smash 4 are slim though. Sakurai really likes building off the foundation of Brawl.

Right now, I feel that Smash 4 will be able to be competitive to play, and I'll enjoy it that way. The problem is that it'll be a defense-focused game, and its competitive value will be hurt by that. It won't be fun to watch, and tournaments and longevity will suffer.

For instance, I didn't like tripping or balance issues, but Brawl was fun to play for what it was. But I can't sit through watching a Brawl game. Yet I watched every Melee MLG match I could last weekend.
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This is the main thing I want, I want to be still playing and watching smash 4 at tournaments 5+ years from now.

But I agree that these changes probably won't make it in, which is why it's frustrating.

The one silver lining is that the E3 demo was from before the smash bros. direct and had broken knockback scaling so it could be much better.
 
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