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[Kinyou]

Next you'll be telling me all cultures don't associate black people with fried chicken.

That's still the weirdest stereotype to me. Who doesn't like fried chicken?

 

[pants]

I don't think you understand man, blackface is inherently racist. It doesn't matter the intentions. Painting yourself cheer black, putting big red lips and an afro is a caricature of black people and it offends a lot of people.

Are you even bothering to read what I posted? The intentions matters mate, there are literally thousands of black people going into the streets to do a minstrel show every year. The celebration is about surviving slavery, and blackface is a big part of it. Black people have taken it back and used it in a way that emboldens people, not as a caricature. Who on earth are you to decide this is problematic? :/

 

[Winterfang]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned. Zwarte Piet has always been portrayed as a diligent, amicable and likeable person that helped Sinterklaas.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

A positive racial stereotype is still a racial stereotype and still racist. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[TatteredHat]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned. Zwarte Piet has always been portrayed as a diligent, amicable and likeable person that helped Sinterklaas.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

The tradition itself may not be actively mocking black people, but it's pretty obvious that the Zwarte Piet makeup is racially charged. There's no need for afro wigs and red lip makeup if Zwarte Piet really just had a black face because of his chimney adventuring.

 

[DC R1D3R]

Painting yourself black, with big red lips and frizz hair is a lot more different than a food stereotype. Are you people really this dense?

don't do it

 

[Ingueferroque]

The tradition itself may not be actively mocking black people, but it's pretty obvious that the Zwarte Piet makeup is racially charged. There's no need for afro wigs and red lip makeup if Zwarte Piet really just had a black face because of his chimney adventuring.

So maybe we should strip Sinterklaas from his 'old wise man' look stereotype as well, since that might offend some long-bearded, gray-haired and wise older folk?

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time its a shame that everything has to be PC and dilluted.

 

[Winterfang]

That's still the weirdest stereotype to me. Who doesn't like fried chicken?

I never understood that, neither the grape soda and watermelon. Or a pack of menthols neither LOL.

Heck I don't understand the white people and Mac & Cheese thing neither. Is just delicious food. But the intentions behind it are usually mean and to offend.

 

[SapientWolf]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

Am I the only one here that thinks that maybe people shouldn't honor the fine tradition of having a helper negro? Honestly, everything about Zwarte Piet is fucking lame. He was originally a chained devil who punished bad children, which is more metal anyway.

 

[Zaph]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned. Zwarte Piet has always been portrayed as a diligent, amicable and likeable person that helped Sinterklaas.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

I speak for all black people when I say how grateful they are you're honouring them for being "helpers" to your santa.

How else are all those white kids gonna get their gifts in one night without the aid of non indigenous labour?

 

[JDSN]

So are americans now closed minded puritans or politically correct liberal pussies? We cant have them both ways.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Hoooooooly shit other countries have different views on things! My mind is blown.



I only saw this line of thinking through american media, it isn't a belgian or dutch belief, at least from my years growing up there.

http://www.economist.com/news/europ...n-exposes-racial-attitudes-zwarte-piet-racism

Many Dutch who have come out against Zwarte Piet have been hounded by the traditionalists. One group in the country’s north who had planned to paint themselves as multicoloured “rainbow-Piets” had to give up after receiving death threats.

Anouk, the Dutch representative at this year’s Eurovision contest, was attacked with racial epithets for her opposition to the custom.

hen a Jamaican researcher for a UN cultural panel said she thought Zwarte Piet was racist, she was overwhelmed with racially offensive e-mails.

A pro-Piet protest in The Hague turned sour when a dark-skinned woman was surrounded by an angry mob and had to be rescued by police.

Which views are these Dutch espousing?

 

[J10]

#notallDutch

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I'm old enough to remember when golliwogs were a thing in my country. Pretty sure we had the same arguments about tradition and context before people woke up and realised they were fucked up.

 

[fanboi]

I was typing on my phone, so I left it short, but you were comparing racist actions with limiting people's food options due to religious beliefs. Those are two very different things.






Context matters. I was providing an example as to how "it's part of their culture/tradition" is an awful excuse. I was not making that actual generalization. If that wasn't clear, I apologize.






I have never said everyone thinks this way. At all. I have been saying that A) there is a history of racially motivated blackface in countries outside the US and B) Racism exists outside the US and many countries have awful histories in that regard (including the US)

You are missing my point.

Yes they are different things, but in concept they are the same, one cultural tradition/law/religion to another since we are discussing the different view on racism due to cultural differences.

We are not arguing if racism is bad or not.

 

[Zaph]

So maybe we should strip Sinterklaas from his 'old wise man' look stereotype as well, since that might offend some long-bearded, gray-haired and wise older folk?

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time its a shame that everything has to be PC and dilluted.

PC - two letters hated by those lucky enough to never have been subjected to racism, sexism, or prejudice of any kind. Must be nice.

 

[TatteredHat]

So maybe we should strip Sinterklaas from his 'old wise man' look stereotype as well, since that might offend some long-bearded, gray-haired and wise older folk?

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time its a shame that everything has to be PC and dilluted.

There aren't any negative stereotypes associated with how Sinterklaas looks, though.

The Sinterklaas celebration can live on, even without the traditional Zwarte Piet make-up, there is nothing wrong with changing parts of a tradition that have become outdated. The spirit of the festival will still be there in the end.

 

[Winterfang]

Are you even bothering to read what I posted? The intentions matters mate, there are literally thousands of black people going into the streets to do a minstrel show every year. The celebration is about surviving slavery, and blackface is a big part of it. Black people have taken it back and used it in a way that emboldens people, not as a caricature. Who on earth are you to decide this is problematic? :/

AAAAAAAARGGGGGGG!!

If honestly wish I could make you understand why Blackface is always racist, but I don't know what to do. It doesn't matter who does it, a caricature of an entire race is racist, it doesn't matter who does it.

 

[Sarcastico]

It doesn't matter what the context is. By using blackface, you are making a mockery out of an entire race of people. Intentionally or not, you are being offensive.

 

[Particle Physicist]

You are missing my point.

Yes they are different things, but in concept they are the same, one cultural tradition/law/religion to another since we are discussing the different view on racism due to cultural differences.

We are not arguing if racism is bad or not.

You are arguing that institutionalized racism is okay as long as it's tradition.

 

[fanboi]

You are arguing that institutionalized racism is okay as long as it's tradition.

No not really (but yes it might come of like that), and I haven't said it is OK anywhere.

I am arguing that one cultural standpoint is not above another one, which people in this thread seems to project.

 

[pants]

AAAAAAAARGGGGGGG!!

If honestly wish I could make you understand why Blackface is always racist, but I don't know what to do. It doesn't matter who does it, a caricature of an entire race is racist, it doesn't matter who does it.

If we reconcile our two views then we end up with 'not all racist depictions are inherently problematic' idk if I'm willing to tread that path. I'd much rather separate the cases entirely.

 

[Kraftwerk]

If we reconcile our two views then we end up with 'not all racist depictions are inherently problematic' idk if I'm willing to treat that path. I'd much rather separate the cases entirely.

Do you agree that blackface is racist or not? That is = a person painting his face black, red lipstick, afro etc.

 

[Winterfang]

No not really (but yes it might come of like that), and I haven't said it is OK anywhere.

I am arguing that one cultural standpoint is not above another one, which people in this thread seems to project.

I agree that one country cannot try to change other's countries culture. But I also don't think this is a simple Americans trying to tell Europeans what to think. Is more of a global thing.

 

[pants]

Do you agree that blackface is racist or not? That is = a person painting his face black, red lipstick, afro etc.

Like I said in what you quoted, I would rather separate out non problematic issues, the issue of racism is already complex enough without making some racism okay and others not. I dont like the tradition that I posted, but not because of racial depictions, I just don't like the music and costumes lol. I think it is A-OK in terms of what it represents to people though, despite having racist origins. (You can surely understand why I dont want to paint something positive as racist?)

 

[Lespedeza]

Every Zwarte Piet thread is the same damn thing every year....us vs them....ugh

....you're all dumb just saying this right now.

 

[pants]

This thread lol......your all dumb just saying this right now.

no your

 

[Gordon Shumway]

This thread lol......your all dumb just saying this right now.

The great taste of iron..thanks, champ!

 

[G.ZZZ]

It doesn't matter what the context is. By using blackface, you are making a mockery out of an entire race of people. Intentionally or not, you are being offensive.

Morality is always a byproduct of society, not the other way around. Nothing is "inherently" morally right or wrong.

 

[Kraftwerk]

I wonder if Bish is just watching this thread and licking his lips.

 

[Lespedeza]

no your

alright red handed

 

[Pelydr]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned. Zwarte Piet has always been portrayed as a diligent, amicable and likeable person that helped Sinterklaas.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

Its kinda amazing how people dont even know the history of their own heritage. They started out as slaves.

 

[Sarcastico]

Morality is always a byproduct of society, not the other way around. Nothing is "inherently" morally right or wrong.

Of course there are. For example, rape. How is rape not morally wrong in your opinion?

 

[fanboi]

I wonder if Bish is just watching this thread and licking his lips.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary when discussing blackface?

 

[Messi]

This thread is amazing.

 

[Winterfang]

I wonder if Bish is just watching this thread and licking his lips.

I don't think anyone deserves to be banned here. No one is saying anything particularly racist just being very stubborn and defensive of their continent own racist things.

 

[TatteredHat]

Of course there are. For example, rape. How is rape not morally wrong in your opinion?

Seeing rape as morally wrong is also a product of your cultural upbringing, though.

 

[pants]

alright red handed

that'l lurn ya

Of course there are. For example, rape. How is rape not morally wrong in your opinion?

This topic, while linked needs a thread of it's own, it's very tricky.

 

[Kreed]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned. Zwarte Piet has always been portrayed as a diligent, amicable and likeable person that helped Sinterklaas.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=118620269&postcount=408

It's not just "America" complaining about Zwarte Piet.

 

[Dennis]

So are americans now closed minded puritans or politically correct liberal pussies? We cant have them both ways.

Can't they be a horrible mix of both?

 

[Supermanisdead]

honest question; do european countries have history classes in public school?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned. Zwarte Piet has always been portrayed as a diligent, amicable and likeable person that helped Sinterklaas.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

"...diligent, amicable and likeable servant, er helper..."

So Zwarte Piet, in your opinion, is one of the "good ones"?

 

[plasmawave]

that doesn't even fit in the rule though. but if you slanted your eyes? that's racist. 'yellow-face' also quite prevalent during the mickey rooney hollywood era.

Rob Schieder playing a Japanese priest(?) in I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry.
This was in 2007 by the way.

 

[pants]

honest question; do european countries have history classes in public school?

The history taught all over the world is different. (In terms of both perspective and what subjects are covered). A bloke in Russia, for example wouldn't be taught much about the American civil war, but would know in great detail about Germany invading Russia during WWII.

 

[karobit]

So maybe we should strip Sinterklaas from his 'old wise man' look stereotype as well, since that might offend some long-bearded, gray-haired and wise older folk?

Maybe there's a difference between a group people who have for centuries been held as second-class citizens and have had cartoonish, somewhat grotesque depictions of them played for laughs and institutionalized as tradition... maybe there's a difference betweent hem and some long-bearded, gray-haired and wise older folk? Maybe there's more cultural significance to one over the other? Maybe? Possibly?

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time its a shame that everything has to be PC and dilluted.

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time its a shame that our built-in response is to complain about how things are being taken away from us when someone asks that we not hurt them.

 

[hwateber]

Today I learned that some people think there is nothing racist about blackface (especially in this context). I should stay away from OT sometimes

 

[boiled goose]

Hoooooooly shit other countries have different views on things! My mind is blown.

I only saw this line of thinking through american media, it isn't a belgian or dutch belief, at least from my years growing up there.

it is a caricature of a group of people.
The only reason it is still done in the Netherlands is because there are less people to offend. Keep telling black people not to be offended and that it is not racist to paint yourself black, paint big red lips, put gold earrings and a frizzy wig on. Keep telling them that.

Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to point out the problem.

 

[Sarcastico]

Seeing rape as morally wrong is also a product of your cultural upbringing, though.

Not buying it. No matter what background you come from. If it happens to you, you'll know it's wrong.

that'l lurn ya



This topic, while linked needs a thread of it's own, it's very tricky.

I agree. That's all I will say and leave it as it is.

 

[aeolist]

The history taught all over the world is different. (In terms of both perspective and what subjects are covered). A bloke in Russia, for example wouldn't be taught much about the American civil war, but would know in great detail about Germany invading Russia during WWII.

russians might not be taught about the transatlantic slave trade, seeing how their country wasn't involved with it directly

the dutch were at the very center of it for a long time and should learn about it in school

 

[aeolist]

Today I learned that some people think there is nothing racist about blackface (especially in this context). I should stay away from OT sometimes

for some reason lots of europeans think their countries have no issues with racism

if you want some laughs start a thread asking eurogaf's opinions of the romany people

 

[shuri]

We are past discussing that, and don't just waltz in here claiming to know that this is staged as if it's a fact. It might be, or it might not be. But as I said, the real topic here is people defending blackface.

Unfortunately, according to your current user status you are not a forum moderator and therefore you are unable to direct where and when people talk about things and switch. Please do not derail this thread with your bossing around.

As for the Zwarte Piet tradiction, as a young child I was told that He was like this because he helped Santa going up and down chimneys and that the dirty and smoked changed his skin to this color permanently from years of doing that.